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[Christofer]

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But many other verses also say that the LORD appeared, yet we know that the LORD appeared through an Angel.

The word 'Lord' in English Old Testaments really bothers me, as it adds to the confusion that people have concerning the nature of the Father and the Son. For example – if Genesis 26 was properly translated – it would read as follows –

Genesis 26:24 Yahweh appeared to him the same night, and said, “I am the God of Abraham your father. Don't be afraid, for I am with you, and will bless you, and multiply your seed for my servant Abraham's sake.” – World English Bible – Messianic Translation

I could write about all the ways a proper translation helps us understand Yahweh, but you can read it yourself and decide for yourself.

messianic translation

[Christofer]

That was a good post John – however – I disagree about how you broke up body – spirit and soul.

The spirit…

Genesis 6:3 And the LORD said, “My Spirit will not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh
 
Ecclesiastes 12:7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

The Soul

Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
 
Matthew 12:18 “Behold, my servant whom I have chosen; my beloved in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my Spirit on him. He will proclaim justice to the nations.

the body

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

the Body is 'dust' – the breath is spirit (spirit is ruwach in on Hebrew – meaning breath of air – amazingly enough) – and the soul is uniquely us.

At least – thats how I understood it –

[Christofer]

True – but my point in sharing was to show that 'Lucifer' wasn't his name – but a mistranslation

[Christofer]

Lucifer isn't really Satan's name. It was a a word Jerome (improperly) used in the Latin translation that became part of the KJV – and subsequently, part of Satan's many names.

Isaiah 14
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! (KJV)

12 How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! (NIV)

In the Strong's Concordance, which is like a study companion with definitions for the KJV, the word “heylel”, which was translated as Lucifer means…

Word # 01966. llyh heylel, hay-lale' (in the sense of brightness); the morning-star:-lucifer.

Neither Satan nor Lucifer appear in the Hebrew of Isaiah 14:12, the word IS 'heylel'. The word “Lucifer” comes from 2 Latin words: Lux (=light) + ferous (=to bear or carry). Thus the name “Lucifer” means: Light-bearer or Light-bringer. Personifying the word has given rise to the idea that Satan is portrayed in this passage and that Satan's name is “Lucifer”. It is more likely that the attributes of Satan are in those who are obsessed with power and jealous of duly constituted authority. The verses speaks to the lofty desire of the Babylonian monarchy. If people would read down to Isaiah 14:16-17 they would understand this.

16 Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate:”Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble,
17 the man who made the world a desert, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?”

Satan is not a man. It simply is not about Satan.

The KJV did not correct this error because by the time it was being made (1611), everyone had been convinced Isaiah 14:12 was about Satan under this 'Heavenly name' Lucifer. The Catholic Church hid behind this error claiming it wasn't his name but his 'state when falling' (Petavius, De Angelis, III, iii, 4). Regardless of the explanation, people believed it was Satan's name and as a result the KJV translators simply used the already well-known Latin word “Lucifer.”

In the KJV version of the Bible the name “Lucifer” appears only one time–in Isaiah 14:12 and as a result it is an inaccurate reading of the prophecy. King Nebuchadnezzar's fall is what Isaiah wrote of. It shouldn't be surprising that King Nebuchadnezzar's fall is equated in a fashion similar to Satan's fall from Heaven as Nebuchadnezzar was a pagan who believed in many gods, blaspheming the one true God despite the witness of Daniel in his presence. The King thought of himself as the ruler of the world, and as a result, Babylon was utterly destroyed.

The real problem with the word 'Lucifer' is that it does appear in Latin twice, though the KJV did not treat the usage the same way in both places. Jerome correctly translated the Greek “phosphoros” into the Latin word “lucifer” in 2 Peter 1:19…

2 Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

“…donec dies elucescat et lucifer oriatur in cordibus vestris.”

I just thought I'd add this to your thoughts on the topic. I hope it helps!

[Christofer]

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You teach about God from your own insights instead of from the Word. You have told us you trust your own inspiration ahead of the Word. By denying scripture you have thrown away the measure and the check points for your inspiration.

I believe you have misunderstood something here, my friend. First – I don't teach about God – I share what I have been taught – not from my own insight – but from the insight I have been given by God. If I was following my own insight – believe me – I would be a modern Christian in every sense of the word, for it is easier to walk the wide road than the narrow.

I don't mind disagreeing with someone –
as the Father gives each man his own measure of faith –

Romans 12:3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.

-and each man must work out his own salvation…

Philippians 2:12
Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,

but between your presumptuous judgment and accusations – one can only ponder your motives.

The fruits you have repeatedly displayed in these forums – both to me and others – say a lot.

God bless.

Mark 6:11
And if any place will not welcome you or listen to you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave, as a testimony against them.”

[Christofer]

I am following Jesus when I say no man has seen the Father. I am using that teaching to see that Yahweh could NOT be the Father. I also know who was given authority over the heaven and the earth, thus making Him 'God'.

I find it amazing you ignore the vision of Isaiah – simply because Isaiah wasn't taken 'to Heaven' to meet the Father. I am sure every scripture that declares man saw Yahweh would be ignored by you in the same manner… but true sight goes beyond what the eyes can see. The Father is love – yet many times in the OT – the vengeful Yahweh doesn't seem to fit the character of the all loving Father…

Don't you see?

[Christofer]

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U continue to be amazed at the fertile imaginations of some who will find “supportive scriptural evidence” for any theories they entertain about God. They find some possible inconsistency or disparity and use such induced doubts to try to bolster their doctrines such as God is “three in one” or “Jesus is Yahweh”.

You have said Yahweh is the Father – but ignore scripture that clearly shows Yahweh was seen by many people at different times. Whether a vision – or not – seeing Yahweh is seeing Yahweh…

Jesus was pretty blunt about Father… but you first have to accept His words about the Father before you can see that the Father was NOT revealed to man at all until Jesus revealed Him to us.

Matthew 11:27
“All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

If no one even knows the Father – or has even seen Him – yet the OT is full of Yahweh – how can you make Jesus a liar by insisting Yahweh MUST be the Father?

[Christofer]

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And Yeshua is demonstrated in these scriptures not to be YHWH so I think you need to accept that at face value.

If no man had seen the Father – yet Isaiah saw Yahweh – who is Yahweh -at face value? Yahweh can't be the Father without Jesus being made a liar – can He? This is something I have been studying – and the more I dig – the more it seems Jesus HAD to be YHWH – and the Father was unknown to men until Jesus revealed the Father

[Christofer]

Where is YHWH applied to the Father?

[Christofer]

Hi Nick

Isaiah 6:1- Lord ='Adonay'… according to Strong's – meaning 1) my lord, lord
a) of men
b) of God
2) Lord – title, spoken in place of Yahweh in Jewish display of reverence

Isaiah 6:3 – using the World English Bible – which uses the sacred name of Yahweh, identifies the 'Lord'

6:3 One called to another, and said, “Holy, holy, holy, is Yahweh of Armies! The whole earth is full of his glory!”

While it is true that this was indeed a vision – it was a vision that Isaiah saw Yahweh in.

For those interested in the World English Bible you can check it out online at christianparadise.com

He says no man has seen God but also is claiming he has seen God. We know that this was not as a man as that is not recorded so it is evidence he has given here of his life before his incarnation-life with the Father as the only begotten Son of God.

I agree – Jesus made that abundantly clear.

[Christofer]

Nick,

Thanks for your concern – but you obviously missed the point of what I said – I am guided by the Holy Spirit. You are convinced of what you are convinced – I will just be happy that I know you love Jesus too.

[Christofer]

The argument is baseless – because there is a serious lack of understanding when looking at the Father and the Son… Yahweh, YHWH or Jehovah was NOT the Father – The New Testament has this to say about the Father…

John 1:18
No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, [ Or the Only Begotten] [ Some manuscripts but the only (or only begotten) Son] who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

Matthew 11:27
“All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

yet… many saw Yahweh in the OT – and knew Him – consider Isaiah and the prophets…

The Father wasn't revealed at all until the Son revealed Him – creating confusion with the minds of men because Yahweh and Jesus are one in the same – and the God of heaven and earth because the Father gave the Son the authority…

When Yahweh professed there is no other God other than Him, He was speaking the truth, because the Father – by His word to the Son – was not available to us as 'god'. Jesus opened the door to us to love the Father in the Spirit of truth… Trinity diminishes our ability to grow closer to the Lord, though it doesn't prevent us from loving Jesus, thank God.

[Christofer]

Actually – in the letters I doubt the authorship to, I can find many things that don't seem to line up with the truth Jesus professed… in fact – I can find contradictions between those letters and the older authentic letters… and that was what led me to research more about the books in question.

I follow Jesus first – then the Apostles – so if an Epistle isn't writing as He preached – I start looking at it harder. Sometimes, it is a matter of fact that the writer is simply human – and not fully aware of all things Jesus taught – (Consider that Jesus said – call no one Father and don't allow ourselves to be called teacher (Mt 23)- yet Paul did both of these things) other times – it is the writer wasn't an Apostle at all – but someone further down the line of the early church.

Is there any part of the New Testament that you can guarantee as accurate for us?

I can't certify any book of the Bible as accurate – the Holy Spirit does that.

[Christofer]

Dear epistemaniac
Well – here's the thing… why don't these commentators simply accept His words on the subject? Let me take one example cited above – I will look at them all more closely – but notice how things don't add up the way they say they do….

“Some have understood Jesus’ prohibition of oaths to be universal, but Jesus Himself submitted to oath (26:63),

Matthew 26:63 But Jesus remained silent. The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.”

64 “Yes, it is as you say,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

The priest charged Jesus with an oath – but notice He didn't 'swear' anything – He simply said – yes it is true just as He taught in Mt 5:34 (yes be yes – no be no)…

I believe most everything Jesus taught is really simple – dumbed down so that we mortals can grasp some aspect of it. I don't see how the commentators can come to anything contradicting His words – of why – except to protect the age old practice of men to swear oaths which the world refuses to give up despite His testimony (and James) on the subject.

I'll be reviewing everything you added and let ya know if I can see what they see – God bless -and thanks!

[Christofer]

Amen Nick – I especially agree with Enoch – but there is so much there historically about the various problems with the Bible that all Christians should review for themselves. But why would they review the information if they see others ask sincere questions about difficulties in scripture who are humiliated and insulted regardless of the topic?

You have been somewhat kind in your responses to me compared to the pastors who have thrown me out of their offices – or the reverends who have attacked me in email – etc etc… I am sure you have had experiences like these… surely you can see how destructive it all is…

To me the bottom line is if one loves the Son of God and follows Him as best as they can, they will exhibit the fruits of the Spirit and find a common ground to praise Him on with many believers more believers as opposed to always bickering about God – never truly praising God – but merely using Him as a trophy that goes to the 'perceived' winners.

I respect your belief in the Bible and I won't say anything more about it for the sake of peace – ok?

[Christofer]

PS.

John 5
39 You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

As it was – it still is –

[Christofer]

Nick – you seem to be fixated on this idea that if I do not believe all scripture I can't believe any of it… how ironic that you are now speaking like the Trinitarians – “if you don't agree with them – you don't believe in God” – right? And yes – it is certainly the same thing – because what you are doing is judging me on your view of the Bible… you use this statement (but why do you take note of any verse like this if scripture is untrustworthy) to avoid answering a very simple and direct question…

The Spirit can ONLY speak what He hears! Doesn't this make Him sub-servant to God – or the Lord – depending on who is telling Him what to say?

Also – the Spirit lives within us – I believe the term is called the 'indwelling of the Holy Spirit”… such as the Apostles repeatedly stated – I don't want to sound condescending – but have you read 1 Peter 1:11; Galatians 4:6; 1 Corinthians 3:16-17, Romans 8:9, 11; 1 Corinthians 3:16? Maybe I am misunderstanding your use of the word 'transmits', but when did the Holy Spirit become a transmitter? Do you mean this – like as in the Holy Spirit is communicating with us on behalf of God?

[Christofer]

oh Nick –
It is as easy as understanding where and how things happened – and following the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Let me try to answer your points…

These forums involve people who at least love and respect the Word of God and do not doubt it's veracity but come together to more deeply understand it by comparing verse with verse.How do you explain to someone that scripture is sacred?

I do not explain that scripture is sacred – it is simply the best record we have on God. Jesus certainly quoted it – but it is interesting that He changed so many 'laws' (such as in Matthew 5-7) … this is hardly the picture of respect you paint about His view on the scriptures.

Are any of the words of Jesus written down, maybe 30 years or so after his death, false? Why should you believe Matthew,Mark, Luke and John? Surely you must mistrust their memory so long after the events? They were just men like you and me after all.

Well – to answer this – one has to assume that the Gospels are as they were from the beginning. Sadly – there are no manuscripts of the NT that I know of that date BEFORE  the Catholic Church did their editing with Jerome in the 4th century – older fragments exist – but they are not even close to being complete in any shape or manner.  As a matter of honesty – I do believe there are certain 'additions' to the Gospels that are revealed when studying Messianic prophecy and writings of the Apostles.

Let us consider the Virgin Birth – since this is a thread about that…

Did the Jews ever look for a virgin born messiah – No. In fact – without the (Greek)  Septuagint, we have no such prophecy whatsoever. Jews are still waiting for the Messiah, but none of them are watching for a virgin birth.

Does Peter – Paul – John – Jude – or any other writer outside of Matthew or Luke ever mention the Virgin Birth? No. Now I did read that many think this doesn't mean the Virgin Birth is false – but I ask you – what men trying to share that Jesus is the Son of God would neglect to mention it if they knew about it?

In fact – Paul wrote this about our Savior – – –

Romans 1
3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

According to terms of the time – the 'seed' always referred to a man – meaning Joseph. Paul did NOT receive his Gospel from men – but from Jesus — did Jesus forget or neglect to share the Virgin Birth with Paul? I don't think so!

Also – if Mary was bethroned to Joseph – she was considered to be his wife – to believe in the Virgin Birth story – I have to first believe that God committed adultery with Mary – then ordered Joseph and Mary to lie about it… this isn't of God – but of men who desired to make Jesus equal to pagan gods in the eyes of pagans…

When you compare these things to the fact that the pagans had many so-called virgin born 'god-men' since at least the days of Babylon – and you understand how the Catholic Church assimilated pagan beliefs into their religion for the sake of recruitment… you can at least see my perspective of Virgin Birth – even if you disagree with it.

I trust the memory of Matthew Luke Mark and John – but I do not believe their memory has been handed down to us without corruption – which the Holy Spirit reveals – as do the letters of the Apostles – its as simple as that.

if you throw out any then you will have to throw the lot out. Either you accept scripture as totally inspired or none of it is trustworthy. Or do you think we should contact you for an acceptable version of Truth?
Are there any parts of Peter's letters or those of James and Jude and the other letters of Paul that you find unpalatable? Perhaps some of the OT is a bit squiffy too?

Forgive me my friend – but that (if you throw out any then you will have to throw the lot out) is a load of bull. That is actually a theological argument that is used by men who do not have an answer to problems in the Bible as a way of alienating a fellow believer whom they disagree with. If you were to learn that a verse was added to the Bible at any point – would you throw it out? No WAY! You have argued against 1 John 5:7-8   as an addition and a bias of the KJV translators – does that mean the KJV is corrupt and not worthy to be called the Bible?  I don't think so, it is merely another demonstration of men and their imperfection.

It is believed that there are many things added to the Bible, speaking from a manuscript point of view – especially in the New Testament – such as the end of Mark (early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20.), or the story of the adulteress in John (early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have John 7:53-8:11). Will you disregard any Bibles including or excluding them? How would you determine which one is the real deal? The only way TO determine it is THROUGH the Holy Spirit.

As far as the ill-fated remark about coming to me for the acceptable version of the truth – all I can say is you should go to God – as I did – to verify the things I am sharing.

Are there any parts of Peter's letters or those of James and Jude and the other letters of Paul that you find unpalatable?

as I said earlier – I believe 1 Timothy 2 Timothy Titus and 2 Peter are all forged writings…

We have the words of Peter too recorded as supporting Paul in 2 Peter.Do you not accept his word either?

AS I stated – 2 Peter is not – in my opinion – a true letter written by Peter.

Perhaps some of the OT is a bit squiffy too?

Have you read Jeremiah 8 – specifically verse 8? You read that and tell me how reliable the Old Testament is – and remember after reading it – that Jesus did in fact change many of the laws – such as eye for an eye.

People here have found all of the Word is inspired and have no reason to think otherwise as they have an internal witness supporting every verse as beauty and light. I can only hope you will too but seek the Spirit as there are many false spirit's that will not be able to show you this truth.

Inspired is VERY different than 'perfect'. I do believe the Bible is Inspired – but inspiration is not perfection. The Holy Spirit DOES testify that the truth is IN the Bible – but not all that is in the Bible IS the truth. I can only say I know who is teaching me – and I have faith in Him above the all the people who claim the Bible's perfection. The number of people behind a belief doesn't make it any more true.

You say the Spirit has guided you to your belief –  

I know you mean well – as do I – but I have to tell you this –

I do NOT believe the Holy Spirit has revealed anything to you or anyone else that would claim the Bible is perfect simply because that would be making God a liar – at least in what He has taught me – the idea that the Bible is perfect is as baseless as the Trinity itself, and as people refuse to hear the Holy Spirit about the Trinity – people refuse to hear the Holy Spirit about the problems in the Bible.

When we hold the Bible as perfect – what we do is idolize it – and we actually end up relying on it before the Holy Spirit. In fact – if you are testing the Holy Spirit to the Bible – and you find it doesn't match the Bible – you admittedly will forsake the Holy Spirit because of the Bible – mistaking it as a false spirit. We are no different than the Muslims with their the Q'uran when we profess that a book is 'perfect' despite all the evidence that reveals otherwise.

btw – a false spirit is easily revealed my friend…

1 John 4:2-4
2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the f
lesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

The Spirit that teaches me – the Holy Spirit – readily confesses that Jesus is from God – in this same manner – the Holy Spirit has revealed the Trinity is false to me (and you I assume) – and in the same manner – the Holy Spirit has revealed the Bible is not perfect.

I am going to bed now – and I will pray especially for the words to share with you what He has shown me in a way that you can see what I am saying – but I can tell you this – you wouldn't be the first person I have encountered who loves and follows Christ but cannot hear what the Holy Spirit has to say about the Bible.

BTW – this doesn't make me anything more than a follower of Christ – I am not a prophet – or a 'teacher' or a messenger – I am simply one who loves Jesus enough to accept what the Holy Spirit TRULY reveals about the Bible as we have it today.

We aren't to worship a book – but the God of Jesus Christ… His Father and Our Father. The scriptures are about them – but the are not them!

I love you Nick – and I pray regardless of our disagreements – we can find unity in Jesus – God Bless you!

[Christofer]

Nick – true – I botched up my paraphrase of His words about hearing the Father – sorry – but it still remains that no one had seen the Father – yet many saw – and heard Yahweh…

Gen. 17:1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, Yahweh appeared to Abram, and said to him, “I am God Almighty. Walk before me, and be blameless. 2 I will make my covenant between me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly.” (WEB)

Exodus 24:9 Then Moses, Aaron, Nadab, Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel went up. 10 They saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was like a paved work of sapphire stone, like the skies for clearness. 11 He didn't lay his hand on the nobles of the children of Israel. They saw God, and ate and drank. 12 Yahweh said to Moses, “Come up to me on the mountain, and stay here, and I will give you the tables of stone with the law and the commands that I have written, that you may teach them.”

Isaiah 6:1 In the year that king Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up; and his train filled the temple. 2 Above him stood the seraphim. Each one had six wings. With two he covered his face. With two he covered his feet. With two he flew. 3 One called to another, and said,

“Holy, holy, holy, is Yahweh of Armies!
The whole earth is full of his glory!”

There is example after example of men seeing AND hearing Yahweh – and not all of them are represented by 'the Angel of Yahweh' such as Moses saw in the burning bush (Ex. 33:23)…

If Yahweh has been seen – then He cannot be the Father – but the Lord – who has all authority over the earth.

[Christofer]

Certainly there is no indication in that verse that the Spirit thinks or acts independantly of God is there?

NIck – that is exactly my point! The Spirit can ONLY speak what He hears! Doesn't this make Him sub-servant to God – or the Lord – depending on who is telling Him what to say?

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