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[BrutusBox]

as it is pertaining to pre-existance, it is important to decide whether YHWH is God's actual name, as there are multiple passages in the old testament that refer to the Angel of YHWH and then refer to the same person as YHWH himself. I believe that YHWH is God's name, and the rest are titles. any feedback?

[BrutusBox]

yes Christians do believe that we are no longer bound to the law, although most act as if they are still trying to follow it. but that is because the new testament teaches that we are not under the law. i don't understand where in the old testament you are finding that you are not bound to the law. proselytes in Biblical times were definitely under the law. also i am interested in what other avenues there are in the old testament besides sacrifices for atonement.

[BrutusBox]

Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 16 2007,12:21)

Quote (david @ Nov. 15 2007,16:36) Quote i would like to read ezra 40-48 tell me where to find it. I believe by “Ez” he meant Ezekial 40-48. Yep!

i feel so silly now.

[BrutusBox]

Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 15 2007,07:51)

Quote (BrutusBox @ Nov. 14 2007,14:06) Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 15 2007,03:22) Quote (BrutusBox @ Nov. 14 2007,10:03) a question i have is, how do you decide which laws to follow and which ones to disregard. this is question i have posed to legalistic christians, but i am interested to hear what your opinion is, Towshab. For instance do you shave your face, if you are female then i must apologize for assuming you are a man. what about the plethora of other laws that seem to be ignored by Jews and legalistic Christians. The context of shaving is in mourning. It is saying that you should not shave as an act of mourning not that you should not shave at all. i might have been misinformed concerning the shaving, i will go back and study it. but my question still remains, there are plenty of OT laws that are seemingly being disregarded. why are there no sacrifices these days. No temple. Sacrifices will resume when the third temple is built. Read Ez 40-48.

i would like to read ezra 40-48 tell me where to find it. also i doubt that it will say anything about not fulfilling the law because there is no temple. people throughout the old testament made sacrifices with no temple. also i don't think God is so concerned with a temple, 1 Kings 8:16 & 17:

16 ‘Since the day that I brought My people Israel out of Egypt, I have chosen no city from any tribe of Israel in which to build a house, that My name might be there; but I chose David to be over My people Israel.’ 17 Now it was in the heart of my father David to build a temple for the name of the LORD God of Israel.

Amos 9:11

11 “ On that day I will raise up
The tabernacle[c] of David, which has fallen down,
And repair its damages;
I will raise up its ruins,
And rebuild it as in the days of old;

if i remember correctly the tabernacle of David was a mobile tent. also i still feel like you are avoiding my question.
How do you choose which laws you will follow and which ones you will disregard?

[BrutusBox]

i would like to know if you guys think YHWH is God's actual name, i know i have asked in other threads, but my understanding is that Yahweh is God's actual name and that Elohim and others are just titles. Jews started writing Yahweh as YHWH because they wanted to live above reproach concerning the commandment in Exodus 20:7

7 “You shall not take the NAME of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.

what are your thoughts on this?
anyone can answer. i am interested.

[BrutusBox]

Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 15 2007,03:22)

Quote (BrutusBox @ Nov. 14 2007,10:03) a question i have is, how do you decide which laws to follow and which ones to disregard. this is question i have posed to legalistic christians, but i am interested to hear what your opinion is, Towshab. For instance do you shave your face, if you are female then i must apologize for assuming you are a man. what about the plethora of other laws that seem to be ignored by Jews and legalistic Christians. The context of shaving is in mourning. It is saying that you should not shave as an act of mourning not that you should not shave at all.

i might have been misinformed concerning the shaving, i will go back and study it. but my question still remains, there are plenty of OT laws that are seemingly being disregarded. why are there no sacrifices these days.

[BrutusBox]

a question i have is, how do you decide which laws to follow and which ones to disregard. this is question i have posed to legalistic christians, but i am interested to hear what your opinion is, Towshab. For instance do you shave your face, if you are female then i must apologize for assuming you are a man. what about the plethora of other laws that seem to be ignored by Jews and legalistic Christians.

[BrutusBox]

Matthew 5:21 & 5:27-28

21″You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brotherwill be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,[c]' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

27″You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.'[e] 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

going back to the old law definitely sounds like a step backwards (just my opinion).

[BrutusBox]

I agree with morningstar on all lot of his points, there are many verses that refer to Jesus as “THE Angel of the Lord”, i think if you study it out that you will see a major difference between “an angel of the Lord” and “THE angel of the Lord”.

[BrutusBox]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 12 2007,04:48)

Quote (BrutusBox @ Nov. 11 2007,04:12) i would like to pose the question that I asked laurel earlier to both Gene and Unisage. I am assuming that you two are Jewish (again sorry to assume, i know that i shouldn't). I am wondering if either of you consider YHWH to be God's actual name or just a title. feedback please. thanks. ButrusBox……> in my opinion, every name is a title one way or another. As far as YHWH goes who knows what it is, seeing no one Know's how to even pronounce it properly. Hears somthing interesting, Jesus said a time would come when He would no longer speak to us about the Father in proverbs (figuratively) but would show us plainly about the Father. To me the I AM WHAT EVER I AM say's it best. The only true God is what every He want's to be. Why, because everything that existes came from Him and is sustained by Him. Ill tell you somthing weird that happened to me a few weeks ago. Me and a friend went to our county fair, and they had a berthing area in the livestock section of the fair. There was this sheep that had Just given berth to twin lamb and they were sucking from their mothers milk and I pointed at one of the lambs and said “look God is now teaching that lamb right now how to suck milk” and the wierdest thing happened the lamb stopped sucking and turned it head and Just starred at me, it seemed as if God was teaching it and realized I reconized Him and starred at me through the lamb, it truly was a weird experience. I believe God The Father is Spirit and is present in all things that has life. In fact I believe He sustains it. O and by the way I am not Jewish as far as I know but am an Israelite of the tribe of Ephraim (England) as far as i Know. IMO……peace to you BrutusBox…….gene

i see what you mean about all names being titles, but my understanding of Jewish teaching (i may be wrong) is that YHWH is God's actual name, and that other words such as Elohim, are titles. what do you think?

[BrutusBox]

Quote (Unisage @ Nov. 11 2007,04:28)

Quote (BrutusBox @ Nov. 11 2007,04:12) i would like to pose the question that I asked laurel earlier to both Gene and Unisage. I am assuming that you two are Jewish (again sorry to assume, i know that i shouldn't). I am wondering if either of you consider YHWH to be God's actual name or just a title. feedback please. thanks. Why not start another thread on the name Issue? Then we all can see how the bogus names were inserted into the English bible..Now this would be something to talk about..

That would be fine, but i would like to know real quick if you think YHWH is God's name or simply a title.

[BrutusBox]

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 12 2007,13:30)

Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 12 2007,02:15) Note how the gospels particularly John, where Roman friendly while condemning the Jews. That is because if the gospels had been condemning of the Romans as well they would have never survived. Yet another lie in the name of self preservation. Where does John condemn the Jews? If you are referring to the Jews saying “crucify him”, then perhaps recording something that actually happened is about condemning but giving an actual account. Even then, how is that condemning if he wasn't the messiah as you say?

i believe that Matthew was specifically written for Jews, and he points out multiple Old Testament prophecies fulfilled by Jesus. that does not sound like condemnation of Jews, but instead an invitation to them. Also Paul said that he would gladly spend eternity in hell if it meant that Jews were saved.

[BrutusBox]

Towshab, i would like to know if you believe YHWH is God's actual name or just a title.

[BrutusBox]

Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 11 2007,04:15)

Quote (Laurel @ Nov. 09 2007,22:16) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 10 2007,03:17) Quote (BrutusBox @ Nov. 10 2007,02:56) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 09 2007,14:28) BrutusBox…….> Dont neglect to start with Isa 48:1-22, Verse 11 > For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it. For How shall MY Name be profaned? And I will Not give MY Glory to another. God was speaking to and about Israel. IMO…….>gene maybe. but the fact remains that this passage clearly shows Jesus as preexistant. brutusBox……> No where in the text of Ias48:1-22 is there any reference to Jesus. You are forcing the text to make it say Jesus when it really dosn't. IMO……….Gene Gene, The Messiah is spoken of in Isaiah 48:19. Laurel Huh? Isa 48:19 [ESV]  your offspring would have been like the sand, and your descendants like its grains; their name would never be cut off or destroyed from before me.” Where do you see the Moshiach in that?

I was wondering the same thing.

[BrutusBox]

i would like to pose the question that I asked laurel earlier to both Gene and Unisage. I am assuming that you two are Jewish (again sorry to assume, i know that i shouldn't). I am wondering if either of you consider YHWH to be God's actual name or just a title. feedback please. thanks.

[BrutusBox]

unisage,
i think i understand your point. your saying God was speaking in verse 13 but Isaiah picks up in verse 14, the way it reads i could see what you mean.

[BrutusBox]

Quote (Unisage @ Nov. 11 2007,03:20)

Quote (BrutusBox @ Nov. 11 2007,02:35) Quote (Unisage @ Nov. 10 2007,11:34) Quote (BrutusBox @ Nov. 10 2007,07:19) i would also be interested, unisage, to hear what those verses true translations should be, as opposed to the “interpretations” we have in our Bibles. i am not being sarcastic i am genuinely interested. These are not my words since I dont read or write ancient Hebrew or Chalden Here is the JPT translation of this verse it is the prophet who spoke this. Isaiah 48:16 – Draw near to Me, hearken to this; in the beginning I did not speak in secret, from the time it was, there was I, and now, the Lord God has sent me, and His spirit from the JPT commentary as an example.. “in the beginning I did not speak in secret” – The prophecy regarding Sannherib, which was the first one, I did not speak in secret but I said in public that it would come about. “from the time it was” – From the time the decree was enacted, as I said, “You are my witnesses,” and now the Lord God has sent me regarding the decree that is destined to come, viz. the destruction of Babylon. “and His spirit” – His angel came to me as an agent of God with prophecy, and he informed me of this decree that is destined to come. He sent me to you that I inform you of it. [This phrase indicates that the prophet saw the angel who delivered the message to him. Sometime, a prophet would hear him but not see him.] 2 points. first, i have no problem with you not trusting the translations, but if that is the case, why trust the JPT. Why not get your hands on some word studies, which are easy to use even without speaking the language, and decide for yourself what the scripture is saying. i do this regularly and find it quite helpful, (although, i usually find that most of the translations have done an exemplary job translating). Second, in verse 13 of Isa. 48 the speaker claims to have created the heavens and earth, i think if you reread the passage you'll see that it is still the same person speaking in verse 16, therefore it can not be the prophet speaking, as the prophet obviously did not create the heavens and earth. But inagain you neglect the well over 140 verses that say God alone CREATED the Heavens and the Earth..There was no Jesus there. Jesus was not brought forth until God Dna was mixed with Mary.Oh btw. wouldnt that make Mary a Goddess? Like I said you took Isa 48:12-16 out of content.You have major contradiction to say it is Jesus. You need to explain the contradiction before you push your theology.. And why trust the KJV? or for that matter any English bible translation..They cant even agree with each other.. So much for trusting the translation..

so you agree with my point, why trust the kjv or the jpt, we can study it ourselves and decide what we think it says.
and i think I misunderstood what you have been trying to say until now. if i understand you correctly, you are merely saying that you don't believe that this is referring to Jesus, which is fine. it would be very difficult to believe Jesus is the messiah based on just this passage. But the point i was trying to make is that the messiah is preexistant to the world. do you believe that this passage is referring to the Messiah? let me reword that. Do you believe that this is the Messiah speaking through the prophet? Or do you believe that the prophet created the heavens and earth (i.e. verse 13)?
i do not want to disregard the other verses at all and i would love to discuss those as well. I am just interested to hear the your beliefs regarding the above questions.

[BrutusBox]

Quote (Laurel @ Nov. 10 2007,15:25)

Quote (BrutusBox @ Nov. 10 2007,06:01) Col 1:16&17 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. I think there is only one way to interpret this. Brutus, I am in agreement that Y'shua did exist in the hearts and minds of the true believers. For, no one has seen the Father except through Messiah. I can answer how they knew Messiah.  He is pictured in every Feast of YHWH, Tabernacles, Unleavenend Bread, Passover, etc. To those who meet with the Creator YHWH at His appointed times, learned of this Messiah, believed He would come and was from the beginning, because they understood that all things will come to pass that YHWH spoke, and His Son certainly came to be, and so was from the beginning. Isn't YHWH our ELohim an awesome God!!! Laurel

Strong point Laurel.
I have a question for you. from reading your post i am assuming that you are a messianic Jew. (sorry to assume). but if that is the case, i would like to know if you believe YHWH is the actual name of God(father) or just a title, and if you think that has been the belief of Jews throuout history.

[BrutusBox]

Quote (Unisage @ Nov. 10 2007,11:34)

Quote (BrutusBox @ Nov. 10 2007,07:19) i would also be interested, unisage, to hear what those verses true translations should be, as opposed to the “interpretations” we have in our Bibles. i am not being sarcastic i am genuinely interested. These are not my words since I dont read or write ancient Hebrew or Chalden Here is the JPT translation of this verse it is the prophet who spoke this. Isaiah 48:16 – Draw near to Me, hearken to this; in the beginning I did not speak in secret, from the time it was, there was I, and now, the Lord God has sent me, and His spirit from the JPT commentary as an example.. “in the beginning I did not speak in secret” – The prophecy regarding Sannherib, which was the first one, I did not speak in secret but I said in public that it would come about. “from the time it was” – From the time the decree was enacted, as I said, “You are my witnesses,” and now the Lord God has sent me regarding the decree that is destined to come, viz. the destruction of Babylon. “and His spirit” – His angel came to me as an agent of God with prophecy, and he informed me of this decree that is destined to come. He sent me to you that I inform you of it. [This phrase indicates that the prophet saw the angel who delivered the message to him. Sometime, a prophet would hear him but not see him.]

2 points.
first, i have no problem with you not trusting the translations, but if that is the case, why trust the JPT. Why not get your hands on some word studies, which are easy to use even without speaking the language, and decide for yourself what the scripture is saying. i do this regularly and find it quite helpful, (although, i usually find that most of the translations have done an exemplary job translating).
Second, in verse 13 of Isa. 48 the speaker claims to have created the heavens and earth, i think if you reread the passage you'll see that it is still the same person speaking in verse 16, therefore it can not be the prophet speaking, as the prophet obviously did not create the heavens and earth.

[BrutusBox]

i would also be interested, unisage, to hear what those verses true translations should be, as opposed to the “interpretations” we have in our Bibles. i am not being sarcastic i am genuinely interested.

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