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[4Thomas]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 11 2014,05:18)

Quote (4Thomas @ May 08 2014,21:33) 2 Peter uses the word Logos so is valid. So does this scripture: Matthew 12:37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned. Does the fact that the Greek word is “logos” in the above scripture mean the “word” mentioned is Jesus Christ?  Of course not. On the other hand: Hebrews 11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible. The Greek word is “rhema” in the above verse.  But does that mean the “word” is NOT Jesus Christ? Not necessarily, because both “logos” and “rhema” are simply Greek words for “word”. But I could surely use the fact that Hebrews 11:3 has “rhema” as SUPPORT to my argument that God created by His LITERAL spoken words, right? At any rate, the fact that scripture #1 has “logos” doesn't mean it IS about Jesus, and the fact that scripture #2 has “rhema” doesn't necessarily mean it IS NOT about Jesus. In English, we can say either “word” or “utterance” (among others) to convey the same exact meaning.  In the Greek language, “logos” and “rhema” work the same way. So the fact that 2 Peter uses “logos” does NOT make it automatically refer to Jesus Christ.  Do you understand these things I've showed you?  If so, then this discussion is a good thing, because we are learning. But that brings us right back to the part where I tell you that I won't entertain any “word” scriptures where the “W” is not capped by your Trinitarian translators.  If the “W” is not capped, then don't bring the scripture up in this discussion……… because I could just as easily say it refers to the LITERAL spoken words of God.  (And if you think about it, that is obviously how the Trinitarian translators understood those verses – or else they WOULD HAVE capped the “W”, right?) Quote (4Thomas @ May 08 2014,21:33) I will answer a couple of your questions and then get you to answer mine. Not a “couple”, Daniel.  Just ONE at a time, please.  I have answered your first one, and await your answer to my first one.

Hi Mike,

The fact is you cant use scripture like By YOUR words you will be justified, when its not even in reference to creation or the Father or the Son.

You need to let scripture interupt scripture.
e.g words by men should even be needed just lots of parallel scriptures.

John 1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2He was with God in the beginning.
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

2 Peter 3:5
But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's Word [Logos] the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water.

Psalm 33:6
New International Version
By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, their starry host by the breath of his mouth.

God never said he would make men and womens offspring Children alone, he said he alone made the heavens withOUT anyone beside him etc. he alone is the first and the last.

point and fact, Jehovah doesn't say he created you alone, he instead says he formed you, he did this by using the substance FROM the mother and fathers very own nature [human] Notice though in the same context he says he speads out the earth by himself

24“This is what the Lord says—
your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb:
I am the Lord,
the Maker of all things,
who stretches out the heavens,
who spreads out the earth by myself,
25who foils the signs of false prophets
and makes fools of diviners,
who overthrows the learning of the wise
and turns it into nonsense,

Isaiah 44:24
Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: “I am the LORD, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,

Isaiah 45:18
For this is what the LORD says– he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited– he says: “I am the LORD, and there is no other.

Isaiah 48:12-13
12″Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last. 13″Surely My hand founded the earth, And My right hand spread out the heavens; When I call to them, they stand together.

Who is the first and the last? Whose hand created the heavens?

Hebrews 1:10-12
He also says, “In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.

Mike, this debate is on, “is Jesus” a angel or God [the Son] which is the same nature as his only true Father.

I cant keep on going backwards and forwards like this all we need to know is WHAT is the foundation. You think i'm preaching, i'm only using common sense and it its wasn't you would tear me to pieces because you have a very scarp mind but you have you trust in the wrong leaders from your youth [well that what it aooears to me] I honestly think you know the truth but you dont even allow yourself to fully considered that Jesus is true God by nature FROM his Father. All you
need to truly believe is that Jesus is THE one and only true Son of God and that the Father isn't a made father he is truly THE eternal almighty Father of his begotten radiance the Lord of Glory his one and only Son who came to earth and was seen and appeared to multiple times as Jehovah the Almighty.

I started this debate with you because you said Jesus is a angel. My very first post on this subject refuted this claim so if you still believe Jesus is a angel lets compare the evidence to Jesus being a angel before he took flesh WHEN compared to Jesus being God before he took flesh.

I really want to end this debate as I need to focus on my children, Wife and Jesus is calling me to other things. I do find it hard to leave talking with you but you dont even read my posts as you believe i'm preaching. Well its truly from my heart and I only write these things because i want you to belong to Jesus, and love him with all your heart soul and mind. Why spend all your time trying to teach he is not God when even the jw John 1:18 calls him **THE** ONLY begotten God. You have a good mind and could spend it on much better things that trying to convince me that the true Son is the same nature as his true Father.

Take care my friend, I will be praying for you in Love and truth
Daniel

[4Thomas]

Quote (terraricca @ May 10 2014,00:17)

Daniel why does it take so long to answer Mike questions you could have saved you one hour in written words ,if you would take one minute to answer his questions ,now you postpone the answer again ,and prepare a counter attack so to speak

Hi t
I'm auckland at the moment for work and I was truly on holiday when I did my last post.

I don't need to spend time to couter post, have you NOT read my posts, the spelling and grammer proves that they are done on the fly. Its very easy to prove that a angel jesus doesn't exist and that Jesus is God [the Son]. the Word was God remember.

You dont trust me so you will never believe my intentions are good so I'm not the person to reach you. this is my last post to you, I only wish you Love Jesus with all your heart and soul and mind and not spend all your time trying to prove he is Something YOU dont even understand. You say he is a NOT a angel but he is a angel. He is FROm the Father substance but he is NOT the true God [nature of his Father]

You can't have an Almighty God of Nothing and a eternal Father of nothing.

The Son is the radiance of the Father glory, the one and only begotten God, FROM the Father ***VERY*** subtsance THE ONLY true Son of God, light FROM light true God FROM true God.

Life in the ONLY true Son of God, Jesus who became THE Son of man to give you a chance to have his Father as your Father.

Daniel
Again i'm sorry I wont be replying to your message this was only meant to be between Mike and I, I have *very* little time and need to finish this debate with mike as The son of God is calling me for his work in other areas that have more fruit. I know i'm in him and he hears me and my prayers are answered and I experience his blessings in my Life.
Live in Love and in truth.

[4Thomas]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 09 2014,13:52)

Quote (4Thomas @ May 08 2014,00:02) NOW you say God the Father created the heavens and earth through his literal Word. NO he created through his true SON, the Logos, the Word. Both are equally accurate, Daniel. God literally SPOKE things into existence, and therefore created by His literal spoken words.  (Genesis 1, among many others.) But God created all things through His holy servant Jesus Christ, who is also metaphorically known as “The Word of God”.  (Col 1:16, 1 Cor 8:6, Heb 1:2, John 1:3) So both claims are scripturally true. Quote (4Thomas @ May 08 2014,00:02) You need to explain WHAT you mean and understand about the Father being creating the heavens. What?  I mean just what it says, Daniel.  God the Father created ALL THINGS, including the heavens, the earth, and everything in them. Quote (4Thomas @ May 08 2014,00:02) Again I have used EXPLICIT scripture that says it was created BY the Logos, 2 Peter. Unless the “W” in “word” is capped, I won't accept the scripture as a valid addition to this discussion. Daniel, we KNOW that God LITERALLY spoke words to create things.  Genesis 1 CLEARLY tells us as much, right?  So any of those scriptures that say “God created by His word” are MUCH more likely to be talking about God creating by His LITERAL word than they are to be talking about God creating through Jesus. And even if some of them ARE talking about God creating through Jesus, just remember words of your forefather, Tertullian:  He who creates is one, and he through whom the thing is created is another. Do you understand that having something created THROUGH you doesn't mean you were the creator of that thing?   But, for each scripture where you say “word of God” refers to Jesus, I could just say that “word of God” refers to God's literal spoken words in that verse. So save yourself the time and effort, and only use the scriptures where the “W” is capped in “Word”, okay?  If it is not capped, it is because your fellow Trinitarians, who made those translations, believe the verse is about God's spoken word, and not about Jesus.   Quote (4Thomas @ May 08 2014,00:02) The word for BY and Through have the same meaning That is correct……. many times, they have the same exact meaning. I await your “explicitly clear one by one” answer to my first question about Mark 13:18-19. Peace and love to you and yours.

Thanks Mike,
I have just a few minutes. I'm meant to be on holiday 🙂

It great that you admit that the words through and by have the same meaning. Because indded they do.

2 Peter uses the word Logos so is valid.

What I was after was an explaination how creation took place if the Father created the heavens through his literal word, and then through his Son (the Logos) the Word.
Surely its clear and unmistakable that The Son is the Word by/through all things are created.
So all things are sustained by Jesus literal Word this is what hebrews says. That means all the gravity fields for all the massive galaxies and suns etc etc and the moons that control the seas tides. We are not talking about a angel here, he is THE Son of God, God by nature.

I should have some time in 3 days, I will answer your questions.

Mike if you admit that the Son is from the Fathers substance and FROM and OF his true nature, then it makes everything simple. Jesus is THE Son of God, the Word was God all the scriptures that describe the Son nature/substance before he took flesh prove Jesus is God (The one and only begotten God)

Take care, I will answer a couple of your questions and then get you to answer mine. Please remember that if its a revealtion to Jesus as the messiah (the Son of man or suffering servant) then you know that because the Son of God become the Son of man, to be a priest and the offering also…

Although Jesus is also a man it doesn't take away from the solid foundation that he is the only true Son of God.

Take care and hope you have a good weekend.

Life in the one and only Son, the true Logos.
Daniel

[4Thomas]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 08 2014,13:28)

Quote (4Thomas @ May 06 2014,00:13) So you say that the Father is ALONE the creator and then you say he didn't create WITHOUT the Son. You can't say that the Father created by a literal word ALONE because this excludes the Son, do you understand this? Daniel, Please just listen for 10 SECONDS……….. Jehovah the Father created you ALONE.  He is the ONLY ONE who created you.  He ALONE is the ONLY reason you are living today. But He didn't create you WITHOUT your parents, did He? He ALONE created you THROUGH your parents – which is NOT to say, “WITHOUT your parents”. Do you understand now?

Hi Mike,
We are talking about God creating the heavens and the earth.

The Father didn't create you through his literal Word alone, scripture doesn't say that children are made my God alone. Scripture says that parents are to be fruitful and multiple, like seeds following of a tree and growing.
Cats and dogs can multiple so can trees, everything acordingly to its own.

NOW you say God the Father created the heavens and earth through his literal Word.

NO he created through his true SON, the Logos, the Word.

You need to explain WHAT you mean and understand about the Father being creating the heavens.

Again I have used EXPLICIT scripture that says it was created BY the Logos, 2 Peter.

Or are you going to forgot, about this fact EXACTLY as Peter stated when writing this truth.

The word for BY and Through have the same meaning

Life in the Son, please read past posts thoroughly and you will see

I will be away so will reply and make it explicitly clear one by one – Take care
Daniel

[4Thomas]

Hi Mike,

I believe you use reason and common sense but been brought up in an environment that has only allowed one view to be expressed. I hope and i also have faith that you will accept the Son as the only true begotten God, the “one and only” true Son.

When I asked you what Jesus was before he took flesh why didn't you admit that he was God?

This is the key difference between men and angels being created Sons and the “one and only” true Son.

The Word was God.e

Now PLEASE let me know if I have missed any of your questions.

As I have said, I don't believe that Jesus in the form as man, a created man, made the heavens and the earth. I believe it was Jesus as the one and only true Son of God, the Logos FROM the Fathers substance, the true Son.

Now you quoted Isaiah 42 as Jesus being the holy servant, you must be aware that this is a direct revelation to the created man Jesus and not to his nature as God, the Logos was God. PLEASE Mike, take a honest read of this.

Isaiah 42
3A bruised reed he will not break,
and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out.
In faithfulness he will bring forth justice;
4he will not falter or be discouraged
till he establishes justice on earth.
In his teaching the islands will put their hope.”

The Word *was* God and became part of creation, a crated being to destroy death hades and the grave.

Isaiah 42 continues
5This is what God the Lord says—
the Creator of the heavens, who stretches them out,
who spreads out the earth with all that springs from it,
who gives breath to its people, and life to those who walk on it:

And yes Jehovah spreads out the earth BY himself.

Isaiah 44:24
“This is what the LORD says– your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, the Maker of all things, who stretches out the heavens, who spreads out the earth by myself,

We have to be honest and admit to the truth that Jehovah spread out the earth by HIMSELF

Isaiah 45:18
For this is what the LORD says– he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited– he says: “I am the LORD, and there is no other.

indeed there is NO OTHER so the Father declares the truth. I will trust in the true Father, not a *made* father

Isaiah 48:13
My own hand laid the foundations of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I summon them, they all stand up together.

He it is, this is the beaty of the scriptures and the power of their truth.

My dare friend, Jehovah, the Almighty says this..

Isaiah 43
8Bring out the people who are blind, yet have eyes,
who are deaf, yet have ears!

Let us see with our eyes

10“You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord,
“and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one [God] after me.
11I, even I, am the Lord,
and apart from me there is no savior.
12I have revealed and saved and proclaimed—
I, and not some foreign god among you.
You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “that I am God.
13Yes, and from ancient days I am he.
No one can deliver out of my hand.
When I act, who can reverse it?”

Get this Jehovah give the above scriptures for those who have eyes but are blind. THEN Jesus quotes this very scripture to prove he is NOT some foreign God. You are my witnesses,declares the Lord, “that I am God.

Isaiah 43:13
Yes, and from ancient days
I am he.
No one can deliver out of my hand.

John 10:28
28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

31Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”

Jesus quoted the scripture that started that there was NO God FORMED before or AFTER him, and then said that he and the Father are one. Of course they wanted to STONE him.

The Logos is NOT some foreign god. He is the only true begotten God, who appeared in the old testament and Jesus revaled THIS fact and truth for the sake of our salvation our souls. Lets led our loved ones to safety.

What very clever is Jesus actually revealed the pharisees as FALSE gods that will perish.

33“We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

34Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”? 35If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside—

He did this by calling them all sons of the most High. Indeed they are false gods who understand nothing and walk blind in darkness. If only they would open their eyes.

Psalm 82:5-7
5“The ‘gods’ know nothing, they understand nothing. They walk about in darkness; all the foundations of the earth are shaken. 6″I said, 'You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High. '7″Nevertheless you will die like men And fall like any one of the princes.”

Jeremiah 10:11-12
“Tell them this: 'These gods, who did not make the heavens and the earth, will perish from the earth and from under the heavens.'But God made the earth by his power; he founded the world by his wisdom and stretched out the heavens by his understanding.

Hebrews 1:10-12
He also says, “In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed. But you remain the same, and your years will never end.”

The true unbegotten God and his begotten Son will NEVER perish.

Life in the Son and in his name.
Daniel

[4Thomas]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 06 2014,13:12)

Quote (4Thomas @ May 04 2014,19:25) Hi Mike, I'm not twisting any scripture -you know this is the truth. I believe you are, Daniel.  You WANT so bad for Jesus to have been our Creator that you are reaching for things, understanding scriptural words in a way other than the most logical way they could be understood, and ignoring the scriptures I've listed for you that CLEARLY and UNDENIABLY identify Jesus as someone OTHER THAN our Creator. In my book, this is called “twisting the scriptures”. Quote (4Thomas @ May 04 2014,19:25) You believe that it was the Father alone who spoke and created everything withOUT the Son, PLEASE explain HOW you can reconcile this with scriptures. Please don't let this be another “Michael the Archangel” thing.  Pierre and I both told you for MONTHS that we didn't think Jesus was Michael, and yet you still made that accusation against us with each post. Now, I told you in a recent post that I DON'T believe the Father created WITHOUT the Son.  So please don't EVER make that accusation against me again. I believe the scriptures – which say GOD is the one who created all things, and that GOD chose to do that THROUGH His holy servant Jesus Christ. That belief does NOT equate to:  “The Father created WITHOUT the Son”, Daniel.  So please don't ever again say that I think that, okay? Now, I think it's time we get down to those scriptures I listed.  Here they are again: 1.  The prayer in Acts 4, which distinguishes Jesus as someone OTHER THAN the Creator. 2.  The teaching in Acts 17,which distinguishes Jesus as someone OTHER THAN the Creator. 3.  The Isaiah 42 passage, in which Jehovah identifies Himself as the Creator, and then proceeds to speak to His servant Jesus Christ. 4.  Genesis 1, which shows us that GOD created by His LITERAL spoken word. 5.  Malachi 2:10, which makes it clear that THE FATHER is the GOD who created all of us. 6.  1 Corinthians 8:6, which makes it clear that all things came FROM the Father, and THROUGH Jesus Christ. 7.  2 Corinthians 4:6, which teaches us that God LITERALLY spoke words from His mouth, causing light to shine out of the darkness.  This verse also clearly distinguishes Jesus as someone OTHER THAN the one who spoke light out of darkness. 8.  Revelation 4:9-5:7, which identifies “the one who sits on the throne” as the one who created all things………. and identifies Jesus as someone OTHER THAN “the one who sits on the throne”. Here goes #9, Daniel: Mark 13 18 Pray that this will not take place in winter, 19 because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again. That was Jesus talking, Daniel.  And Jesus said GOD created the world. When will you address one of these scriptures?  They're piling up on you.   In the opening post of this thread, you said, “I want this debate to be about comparing the evidence.” I'm showing you CLEAR and UNDENIABLE scriptural evidence here, Daniel.  Why are you ignoring it?

Hi Mike,

You have heard the saying you cant have your cake and eat it too 🙂

You say

That belief does NOT equate to: “The Father created WITHOUT the Son”, Daniel. So please don't ever again say that I think that, okay?

So you say that the Father is ALONE the creator and then you say he didn't create WITHOUT the Son.

You can't say that the Father created by a literal word ALONE because this excludes the Son, do you understand this???

Jesus is the one and only Son, adam isn't a Son FROM the Father substance. Adam is a Pinocchio type Son, this is the key difference to ALL the other Sons.

See its undeniable that John is quoting Genesis by saying in the beginning, that Jesus is the Word [logos] that was created all things.

Even the hebrew word for God is plural.

Now Adam and eve are created in the image of God [pural]. Because the Fathers nature (God) is expressive, he truly has a Son FROM his substance. Do you agree that it is the Father and the Son in the OUR image???

Genesis 1:26-27
Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.” So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

Jesus is NOT like Gabriel or Michael or lucifier before the fall.
Michael did NOT create anything, he is the warrior angel.
Gabriel is the messenger angel, the angel of the Lord, he reveals all the important messangers.

The Son is truly the Son he is NOT ***A** created creature Son, *true* sons are NOT created from parents they are multiplied by the interaction between the substance of Love between man and women. The process cant be stopped, if a fertile man and women make love they have NO choice but to have a Son, its the expression of substance and love.

God is Love.

The Father didn't create his own substance to express as his radiance.

The Father is eternally Father and expresses this begotten Glory he didn't make his begotten Glory, the Logos, he didn't make his own Fatherhood, HE is truly Father!!!
Not a *made* father.

Also remember, I'm saying Jesus as a *MAN* didn't create the universe, I do believe that it was the same Jesus that created the heavens by the works of his hands BUT not in the form as a man [e.g not as the lamb of God].

The Word **was** God [the Son alone] now he is BOTH God the Son AND the Son of man.

He is one with the Father because he i
s FROM and OF the one Father's substance. remember my example of the mountain with the unbegotten snow expressing the river of life, which is the BEGOTTEN water FROM the snow.

Now begotten glory [the Son] is the well of Life and the access to partake of the living water, the nature FROM which it came. Have to go so cant answer all your questions.

Really interested in you explaining how the Father created everything with his literal Word, and then created it BY/Through the Son.

Also I gave you a clear example that showed it was **BY** the Logos that was the creator/maker. Ofcourse the scripture that says it was BY Gods Word that the heavens are made, indicate it was by the Son. Lets focus on this truth.

So please explain YOUR belieft how the Father creates by his literal Word… interested to see how you could reconcile this with scripture especially since Jesus is refered to the Logogs and it is interchange with the word rhema as I have already proved WITH scripture.

PLEASE put your trust in Jesus the one and only true Son. He will not destroy you for admitting that he is OF and FROM the fathers substance, what is the Father substance, true God!!! not a false God like satan and anything else that is called god

Life in the one and only Son.
Daniel

[4Thomas]

Quote (terraricca @ May 06 2014,01:18)

Daniel you have not addressed Mike question at all

Hi T,
I'm sorry, Yes you are right, I didn't have time to explain them so I summarized by saying.

I don't believe Jesus as the Son of man and the lamb of god created the heavens.

So with all the scriptures that reveal the messiah we need to realise that the Word was God, he is NOT just a man alone, he is not just the lamb of God.

Jesus is indeed the sacrificial offering and at the same time he is ALSO *the* high priest. See how he is both priest and offering. ALSO he did these roles as the Son of *man*.

He became a priest, that why he had to wait until he was 30 years old for his ministry to start because you needed to be this age to a a priest. Jesus filled all the old testment conditions perfectly.

T and Mike, you need to understand I want nothing more than truth. SO I cant answer every single question that says how can Jesus be the creator when he is the Lamb of God or a man or a baby etc…

This debate is focussed on WHAT was Jesus before he took flesh. Every scriptures states he was God who humbled hisself to *become* a servant. SO * please* if you are interested in truth lets focus on him before he took flesh as the suffering seravnt.  

I believe Jesus created the heavens as the Word [Logos] who is God [Jehovah the Son].

This is a good and fair question.

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

So is through[by] the Logos [the Word] that all things are ***created**** Its FROM the Father so the Father didn't create in isolation did he because it was BY/through the Son , who is THE Logos.

The Son is FROM and OF the one Father > One God. The Son is the begotten **radiance** [Logos] of the Fathers glory, that's why he is called the Lord of Glory. God from God, 1×1 = 1

I have done more study on Mikes question with the different between the Word [Captilised W > logos] and the small w word[rhema]
Very interesting and this reveals that its the Sons rhema that sustains and created the heavens. Common sense shows that the Son is FROM the Father and if its BY/THROUGH the Son it through the Sons word [rhema] that the heavens are made.

CHECK THIS OUT!!!!

Its BY the Logos, The Word [ captial e.g Logos ]

Scripture states, it ***BY*** the God's Logos, his Son. PLEASE guys lets not deliberately forget these scriptures as they are WARNINGS…

2 Peter 3:5
New International Version
But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word [Logos] the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water.

English Standard Version
For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word [Logos] of God,

See the truth, it by the Logos and the Logos of God is the only begotten God.
If its by the Logos it by his command, this is obvious, it can't be by the logos and then by the rhema of the Father.

Hebrews 11:3
By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word[rhema] of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.

HERE IS ANOTHER EXPLICIT example, check this out!!!

The Logos of God. the Son of God

Hebrews 4:12
New International Version
For the word[logos] of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

Below the Logos is called the rhema of God because it the Logos Word. the Logos literal word is the rhema.

Ephesians 6:17
Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word[rhema] of God.

Which is the rhema of God, the logos Word.

Other times the Logos and the rhema are interchanged, because the rhema is the logos literal word.

Mark 14:72 And Peter called to mind the word (4487- rhema) that Jesus said unto him, Before the **** crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice.

Luke 22:61 And Peter remembered the word (Strong’s # 3056 – logos) of the Lord, how he had said unto him, Before the **** crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.

BOTH logos and rhema used for exactly the same thing.

There is more to say but lets not forgot

Hebrew 1:10
New International Version
He also says, “In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.

and lets not forgot

Isaiah 51:13
New International Version
that you forget the LORD your Maker, who stretches out the heavens and who lays the foundations of the earth, that you live in constant terror every day because of the wrath of the oppressor, who is bent on destruction? For where is the wrath of the oppressor?
51:14 > continues
The cowering prisoners will soon be set free; they will not die in their dungeon, nor will they lack bread.

2 Peter 3:5
New International Version
But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word [Logos] the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water.

Peter continues to say it the same Logos that is reserved for Judgement

2 Peter 3:7
New International Version
By the same [logos] word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

Indeed the Logos will destroy by the splendor of his [the Logos] coming

2 Thessalonians 2:8
New International Version
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

Happy to look at any part of what I have said or any part that you like in great detail to get to the core of the truth. I trust in Jesus and his[ the logos] rhema keeps revealing more and more that he is truly the one and only Son of God by substance/nature from the One God, the eternal Almighty Father.

take care and I wish you every blessing in the Son, put your *trust* in the Son, we are blessed with the mercy he offers us.
Daniel

[4Thomas]

Hi Mike,
The Lamb and all your examples of YOUR questions are Jesus as the Son of Man. I agree Jesus didn't create the heavens as the Son of man or the lamb of God. He created them BEFORE the the Word was made flesh. remember the Word was God and all things were made through him and FOR him.

Jesus became the Son of Man because he LOVES us, he Loves you and wants mercy instead of judgement.

Give me any single direct question, one at a time. Give m your BEST question and it will be clear as we go through YOUR questions one by one.

WHAT was THE Son before he took flesh is the answer I want FROM you.
We all have a spirit so please don't be vage and just call jesus a spirit. It would be helpful if you could give him a name, i think you admit that he was called Jehovah in the old testament so if you dont have a name we can stick with that.

put your trust in Jesus, not man, try it and love Jesus with all your heart soul and mind.

take care and i'm happy to answer any single question if you want me too.

Love and life in the Son, choose life not man
Daniel

[4Thomas]

Hi Mike,
Here is some help..

Lets obey the Fathers words!

Hebrews 1:10-12
He also says, “In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed. But you remain the same, and your years will never end.”

Which are DIRECT reference to Jehovah (*the* Son)

Psalm 102:25-27
24I say, “O my God, do not take me away in the midst of my days, Your years are throughout all generations. 25″Of old You founded the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. 26″Even they will perish, but You endure; And all of them will wear out like a garment; Like clothing You will change them and they will be changed. 27″But You are the same, And Your years will not come to an end

Scripture is explicitly clear that it was God ALONE who made the heavens and the earth. He was by himself and there was no other with him.

Isaiah 44:24
Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: “I am the LORD, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,

Isaiah 45:18
For this is what the LORD says– he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited– he says: “I am the LORD, and there is no other.

Isaiah 48:12-13
12″Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last. 13″Surely My hand founded the earth, And My right hand spread out the heavens; When I call to them, they stand together.

Who is the first and the last? Whose hand created the heavens?

Hebrews 1:10-12
He also says, “In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.

But right before this amazing revelation we have scripture revealing that before Yahweh there was no God formed and that there will be no God formed after either, truly God is -ONE Nature/Substance-

Isaiah 43:10
“You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.

No God before or after… What did the father say and reveal.
He quoted Psalm to reveal the it was Jehovah (the Son) God by nature, the true one and only Son.

Psalm 102:25-27
24I say, “O my God, do not take me away in the midst of my days, Your years are throughout all generations. 25″Of old You founded the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.

Life in the Son.
Daniel

[4Thomas]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 05 2014,05:11)

Quote (4Thomas @ May 02 2014,00:00) Scripture teaches it is BY the Son and Through the Son and FOR the Son. these are not my words. Didn't you read my last post?  God created you BY your parents.  But it was still GOD who actually created you, Daniel. Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ……. Can you see how the word “by” doesn't change the fact that it was still GOD who did the creating?  Just because God chooses to create things BY (or “through”) His holy servant Jesus Christ, it doesn't eliminate GOD as the actual Creator. So right now, we've learned NOT to twist the teaching of scriptures just because of the choice of some translators to use the word “by” – which by all accounts, often has the very same meaning as the word “through” anyway. And we've learned NOT to twist the teaching of scriptures by assuming every instance of the phrase “word of God” in scripture refers to God's holy spokesman, Jesus Christ – who is indeed metaphorically called “The Word of God” in a couple of scriptures. That means that we've still got to learn those SEVEN scriptures (so far) that I've quoted for you. We've got to learn that those scriptures CLEARLY and UNDENIABLY distinguish Jesus as someone OTHER THAN the one who created all things. So far, the scriptures are: 1.  The prayer in Acts 4, which distinguishes Jesus as someone OTHER THAN the Creator. 2.  The teaching in Acts 17,which distinguishes Jesus as someone OTHER THAN the Creator. 3.  The Isaiah 42 passage, in which Jehovah identifies Himself as the Creator, and then proceeds to speak to His servant Jesus Christ. 4.  Genesis 1, which shows us that GOD created by His LITERAL spoken word. 5.  Malachi 2:10, which makes it clear that THE FATHER is the GOD who created all of us. 6.  1 Corinthians 8:6, which makes it clear that all things came FROM the Father, and THROUGH Jesus Christ. 7.  2 Corinthians 4:6, which teaches us that God LITERALLY spoke words from His mouth, causing light to shine out of the darkness.  This verse also clearly distinguishes Jesus as someone OTHER THAN the one who spoke light out of darkness. I will add another to the list: Revelation 4:9 Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever, 4:10 the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say: 4:11 “You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being.” 5:6 Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the middle of the throne area, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. 5:7 He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. So the Lamb is distinguished as someone OTHER THAN “Him who sits on the throne”.  And “Him who sits on the throne” is the one who created all things. So now there are EIGHT of them, Daniel.  Will you ever ADDRESS any of them?  Or will you just keep “preaching” other things, while AVOIDING these CLEAR and UNDENIABLE scriptures?

Hi Mike,

I'm not twisting any scripture -you know this is the truth. You believe that it was the Father alone who spoke and created everything withOUT the Son, PLEASE explain HOW you can reconcile this with scriptures. Jesus is THE Word of God and more powerful that a *literal* Word FROM the Father, or do you think a literal word FROM the Father is more powerful??? Please explain… Does THE Father have another Son??

Jesus is FROM the Father and SCRIPTURE teaches that it is JESUS word that Sustains all things, this is the Word of Truth.

Scripture also teaches that it is through/by the Word (rhema) that the heavens are made, so it very easy to see it was through THE Words (logos) word (rhema) that the heavens are made. Because its FROM the Father and through/BY the Son. Without the Son NOTHING was made that has BEEN made so it can't be the Father (rhema) Word excluding the Father's Logos (THE Word). Instead its FROM the Fathers and BY his Logos [The Son] who speaks the rhema (word). The same rhema (word) that sustains the ENTIRE Universe.

God said be fruitful and multiply, through the expression of Love in the one flesh, man and women being Wed and made one flesh in unity through Love are able to be fruitful and multiply. The expression is the beautiful image of God.

There is a MASSIVE!!!! difference between creating the very first human and there DNA structure and their very own ability to self pro-create, when compared to the difference of making love and multiplying. The Father and Son image is revealed as the comparism between Adam and Eve. Eve was begotten from Adam.

Genesis 1:26-27
Then God said, “Let usmake mankind in ourimage, in ourlikeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.” So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

 
Let me get it clear, are you comparing the one and only Son of God, to animals being fruitful and multiplying?
Do the animals sustain the entire universe by their powerful Word? NO << See the difference my friend PLEASE!!

Even dogs and cats give birth and are involved in the process of life being born. Even basic cells can multiply.

All you need to believe is that Jesus the one and only true Son of god by nature/substance is FROM and OF the Father substance alone. God from God light from light, true God FROM true God. OFcourse they are ONE when the Son is FROM and OF the ONE Father > ONE God.

Life in the Son and in his name, the name of Love > “Jehovah Saves”

Daniel

[4Thomas]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 02 2014,12:35)

Hey Daniel, I just read this in another thread: 2 Corinthians 4:6 For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of God's glory displayed in the face of Christ. Once again, Christ is clearly distinguished as someone OTHER THAN the God who said, “Let light shine out of darkness” – in other words, the one who SPOKE light into existence with His LITERAL words.

Hi Mike,

Happy you are ok with the short reply as I only have a few minutes today.

Scripture teaches it is BY the Son and Through the Son and FOR the Son. these are not my words.

Colossians 1:16
English Standard Version
For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.

Scripture (that I follow) also teaches that it is in him that

Colossians 1:17
New International Version
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

King James Bible
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

So HOW? is it that Jesus sustains all things???
Scripture teaches that it by the Sons powerful word.
So everything in the universe is held together and sustained by THE Son's very own word.

By the Sons own literal powerful word. Its still FROM the Father because the Son is the only begotten FROM the Father. But its by the Sons literal word…

Hebrews 1:3
New International Version
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

Ofcourse the Father testament of his unfammonable Almighty and eternal glory isn't in mere creation of the universe its in his eternal begotten radiance that is concentrated and expressed in the Lord of Glory who is the first and the last and his very own Son by substance.

Now we need to realise the thing that is causing you to slip up. That thing is that Jesus actually entered this world that he and his Father created.

That being that Jesus become part of creation, if you where a software designer it would be like you being able to have your Son enter a video game.

Now we need to realise as Jesus enetred the new creation, he became the last Adam, this is what scripture teaches.
Its actually amazes me that God's very own Son could humble himself to become part of creation as the new adam (firstbron among creation) and the firstborn from the dead.

I have been praying for you and i know because of your logic that you will come to accept Jesus for that which the jews could not, that being the very one and only own Son of God by nature and substance.

See
Jesus flesh is FROM Mary, he is human in everyway
Jesus spirit is FROM and OF his Fathers very substance
Jesus soul is the his entire being, that being the expression of both of his human flesh and his spirits divinity.

We have a spirit, soul and body in our case they are all human.
Jesus who became the Christ bridged the gap to become the one Body, the access to the Spirit of God through the person (soul) of Christ. We have access through the one body and one spirit (the holy Spirit). We should always humble ourselfs to the Holy Spirit.

Take care and hope you have a great weekend
Daniel

[4Thomas]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 01 2014,11:33)

Actually Daniel, Let me make this real easy for the both of us: Is it clear from Genesis 1 that Jehovah God spoke literal words which caused the heavens, the stars, the earth, and the creatures on it to come into existence? The only honest answer is “YES”. Therefore, when you read a scripture that speaks of God creating all things “by His word” – isn't it most likely and most logically speaking about the fact that God did indeed create those things by His literal spoken words? YES or NO?

Hi Mike,

Creation is nothing in comparison with the Father's very own Son.

Creation was created by the Son, nothing was made without him. It appears you are trying to say that the Father created with a literal word what is excluding the Son who is known as The Word who was God and who nothing was made that had already been made without him.

http://biblehub.com/colossians/1-16.htm

For by him

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
By him was everything created which is in Heaven and in The Earth: everything that is seen and everything that is unseen

International Standard Version
For by him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible…

English Standard Version
For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible….

New American Standard Bible
For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible…

King James Bible
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible….

GOD'S WORD® Translation
He created all things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible.

The Son is FROM the Father alone and it is by the Son that all things are created.

Sorry I only had a few minutes today.

Please answer how the Father created without his Son when this goes directly against scripture.

Take care Mike and sorry for the short reply.

Life in the glorious Son, who alone is of the Fathers very substance.

Daniel

[4Thomas]

Hi Mike,

Sorry about the delay.

Psalm 33:6
By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, their starry host by the breath of his mouth.

Please read the commentaries that have actually even revealed more explicit examples of the Expressed Word (The Son) and the Breath of God (The Holy Spirit)

If you are interested here are some commentaries.
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/psalms/33-6.htm

First, the Septuagint

Ecclesiasticus (Sira) 43:26

By him the end of them hath prosperous success, and by his word all things consist.

The word by which all things consist is the Son.

Colossians 1:17
King James Bible
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Ecclesiasticus is in the Septuagint, this is the book the disciples including the great Paul would read and quoted from.

Isaiah 55:11
New International Version
so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

The Word is The Son who does all his true Father wants.

Isaiah 11:4
New International Version
but with righteousness he will judge the needy, with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth. He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth; with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked.

A direct and explicit revelation, the rod of his mouth is the sword of his mouth

Revelation 19:15
Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.

Isaiah 11:4
English Standard Version
but with righteousness he shall judge the poor, and decide with equity for the meek of the earth; and he shall strike the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he shall kill the wicked.

with the breath of his lips….. The Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth

2 Thessalonians 2:8
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

double-edged sword is The word of God, that separates soul, spirit and body [ that being joints and marrow]

Revelation 1:16
New International Version
In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.

Hebrews 1:3
He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Job 33:4
New International Version
The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life.

Let us all tremble at the Word of the Father

Isaiah 66:2
Has not my hand made all these things, and so they came into being?” declares the LORD. “These are the ones I look on with favor: those who are humble and contrite in spirit, and who tremble at my word.

Genesis 1:3
And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

See the Father created all things by/through his Son/his begotten Word

John 1:10
10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

If its *through* you that something is completed it is **by** you that its completed.

example is its *by* or through Jesus blood

Ephesians 1:7
New International Version
In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace

We can say it’s through Jesus blood or it by Jesus blood because we are actually saved by his blood and we don’t actually travel through his blood.

Over 90 percent of all translations explicitly declare it is BY the Son all things were created.

Colossians 1:16
For by him all things were created…

BY him, nearly 20 examples that it was BY the Son who all things were *created* http://biblehub.com/colossians/1-16.htm

Colossians 1:16
For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.

The Son is the Word, by which the heavens were made. You can get to work through your car, because its by the car you can drive to work. Its through the Son because its by the Son (the Word) all things are created.

Sorry I don’t have much more time to spend and there is a lot more I could say regarding the Holy Spirit but considering the word spirit and breath are one and the same word, it’s clear the breath is the Holy Spirit. The Son also has the Holy Spirit with the breath of his mouth.

Psalm 33:6
By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, their starry host by the breath of his mouth.

John 20:22-23
New International Version
And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone's sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

The New testament has revealed that THE Word by which the heavens are created is truly THE one and only Son of God. True Lord and true God FROM and OF his Fathers substance. The Father is FROM and OF no one his is eternally the unchanging Father. FROM the Fathers begotten and expressed glory [*the* Son the Lord of Glory creates all things. Ofcourse the Son is the maker the creator as all things are created BY the Son.

Here is a link to twenty different translation that explicitly state *BY* him all things were created. http://biblehub.com/colossians/1-16.htm

If it *BY* you that a car is created, then you are the one that created it?
So by if all things are created *by* the Son and then scripture says that the universe was created by the word(rhema) of God then in this cause the rhema is the logos, who is the Son which has the same nature as his Father.

Hebrews 11:3
By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.

Another example that it was ***BY*** the word of God the heavens were made/created

2 Peter 3:5
But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water.

Love and life in the one and only true Son
Daniel

[4Thomas]

Hi T8,

correction to my post, instead of editing I will note what I entered incorrectly below

The Son who is OF the one God [the Father, is FROM the one God's (The Fathers substance)

the statement should have said

The Son who is OF the one God, [The Son is FROM the one God's (The Fathers substance, this is how they are one)

Satan is not FROM the Fathers substance and other arch angels like Gabriel and Michael are NOT from the Fathers substance. Jesus *alone* is the one and only true Son by substance. This is why Jesus can say to us all, ” 4Thomas how long have I been with you and you say show us the Father ”

I agree with you that the Father is FROM **NO-ONE** -the Father is OF noone. He is the source of the entire divinity, he is the source of the Son.
So amen- and amen the Father is FROM no-one because he is the only unbegotten God, the only source and the source of all, but he is not static but expresses his glory for eternity. The Son is and always will be the greatest testimony of the Fathers expressed Glory and love and mercy.

An example of something in the universe that is static is a rock (moon) that doesn't express itself, when there is no light it is in darkness. it is only by the begotten rays that it can be made visable. See i don't think the Father is was eternally static like a moon but instead I think of him as the Sun and all of the suns expressed begotten glory can be found in the Son.

A lot of what you say T8 make sense. I note you say that Jesus sits with the Father and we sit with Christ. See how you use the name Christ and Jesus.

from  View Points » Where is God exactly

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 19 2013,20:42)

Mike, I believe that there is a disinction with God and his Spirit. By his Spirit he can dwell in all and that is the plan, (but currently does not), and as the Father, I personally do not believe that he is contained inside his own creation. The closest we get to see him is when we see Christ seated on his throne. Around that throne and through the face of Christ is glory and light perhaps even unapproachable light. And where is that light coming from? God. From the highest throne and beyond is the Father. Only Jesus is able to sit with him on that throne. While we can if we are worthy be seated with Christ on his throne. I can sort of imagine looking into the face of Christ and knowing that beyond him was the light of God shining from eternity and through the son. If I was able to look, maybe I would have to look away after a while because that light is from eternity and is the source of all.

[4Thomas]

Quote (t8 @ April 29 2014,23:01)

Daniel. Jesus own words testify of the truth as to who the true God is and it is not Jesus. He states it clearly and he says that these words are eternal life. So you better listen up. John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.” Jesus was either wrong or right when he spoke these words. And if you read the rest of scripture without Trinity lenses on, you will also see that the rest of scripture agrees with Jesus words of eternal life. e.g., our brother Paul states in 1 Corinthians 8:6 “yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live., just as there”. Daniel, rather than trying to convince men that Jesus is God, why not convince men that Jesus Christ is Lord. After all, all will confess this eventually. Further, Jesus is our brother and God calls us children. Know the difference because eternal life was to know God and Jesus. Finally, the Trinity states that the Father is God, Jesus is God, and the Spirit is God right. That is, God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. But have you heard the words, “the Son of God” or “the Spirit of God”? Sure you have, but now ask yourself, have you heard the term “The Father of God”? No you have not. Yet that is what you are teach when you teach the Trinity. This doctrine has made people from all nations drunk. The Father is not the Father of God, no he is God. Jesus the son and the Spirit are OF God. Simple stuff. Not complicated. Simplicity in Christ.

Hi T8,

I like your reply its a very fair question, thanks.

Yes there is one Lord, yet would you exclude the Father from being called Lord? YES/NO

If the answer is NO then you cant use this agreement to exclude the Son from being called God.

The Father is the source of the entire divinity. I agree the Son is OF the Father's substance [the nature of true Lord and true God] Same nature and substance

See the only true God is the one God, see as you know I believe common sense doesn't allow for an eternal almighty Father (God) of nothing. The Son who is OF the one God [The Father, is FROM the one God's (The Fathers substance) if you where my Son and from my substance alone, we would be one in our nature and have the same substance even though we are different people (persons)

See you rightfully dont believe that Jesus is just a MAN.

Below states that the mediator is the MAN Jesus.

Do we ALSO need a mediator to be saved? Yes we do, who is this mediator it is the Son of MAN, the man Jesus, the Word made flesh.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the MAN Christ Jesus,

The MAN [Messiah] Jesus,

Just ask yourself are you happy believing Jesus was a just a MAN alone?

John 17:3-5
3Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

Again here Jesus is talking about his human nature as the Christ [Messiah], he says I have brought you glory on earth and then he begins to talk about his nature before the World began. Jesus is one with the Father in his eternal substance from and of the Father and he is also a man. Eternal life is knowing the one true God, (the Father, Son and Holy Spirit) and also understanding that the only begotten God took flesh and became man.

John 17:3-5
3Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

So eternal life doesn’t just mean understanding the one God you also need the Mediator the MAN Christ to have access to God, this is why Jesus came *from* and *of* his Father AND took FLESH, the *Word* became Flesh.

Every scripture that teaches WHAT jesus was before he TOOK flesh in his nature as the only true Son teaches that the Word was God. He is God because he is OF the one Gods substance his true Fathers substance.

If you truly believe that Jesus is true Lord that being Jehovah please help me to reach others so they will also believe that Jesus is the one Lord who is Jehovah seen the old testament.

Love in Jesus, the Son whom all things are made for
Daniel

[4Thomas]

Hi t,

You can't have an almighty God of Nothing especially an eternal Almighty *unchanging* Father.

Child faith.

I can prove explicitly with scripture that it was THE Son who appeared as THE ALMIGHTY in the old testament.

Exodus 6:3
2God also said to Moses, “I am the Lord [Yahweh]. 3I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as God Almighty, but by my name the Lord [Yahweh] I did not make myself fully known to them. 4I also established my covenant with them to give them the land of Canaan, where they resided as foreigners.

Moses indeed wrote about Jesus and revealed that, God appeared to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as God Almighty.
This makes John 1:18 when it explicitly states, No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God, we know the Father was never begotten to earth but instead it was the Father who sent his Son. God from God, light from light, true God from true God. The active testimony of the Fathers Almighty glory and power.

Genesis 17:1
When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD [Yahweh] appeared to him and said, “I am God Almighty; walk before me faithfully and be blameless.

John 8:56
56Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”57“You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”58“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

Genesis 26:24
That night the LORD [Yahewh] appeared to him and said, “I am the God of your father Abraham. Do not be afraid, for I am with you; I will bless you and will increase the number of your descendants for the sake of my servant Abraham.”

Genesis 26:2
The LORD [Yahweh] appeared to Isaac and said, “Do not go down to Egypt; live in the land where I tell you to live.

Genesis 35:9-11
After Jacob returned from Paddan Aram, God appeared to him again and blessed him. 10God said to him, “Your name is Jacob, but you will no longer be called Jacob; your name will be Israel. ” So he named him Israel. 11And God [Yahweh] said to him, “I am God Almighty; be fruitful and increase in number. A nation and a community of nations will come from you, and kings will be among your descendants.

Genesis 48:3
Jacob said to Joseph, “God [Yahweh] Almighty appeared to me at Luz in the land of Canaan, and there he blessed me

Why did Jesus speak CLEARLY for the sake of peoples salvation say that no one has ever seen the Father form. Scripture explain why, it because no one has access to the Father except through the one and only Son.

T, I believe that the Jesus is THE true Son of God [God the Son]

You are **truly** the one following the pharisees and scribes because they didn't believe THIS, because this basic truth would make Jesus God by nature because even the simple know that a true Son by nature and substance has the exact same substance/nature as there Father.

Exodus 6:3
2God also said to Moses, “I am the Lord [Yahweh]. 3I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as God Almighty, but by my name the Lord [Yahweh] I did not make myself fully known to them. 4I also established my covenant with them to give them the land of Canaan, where they resided as foreigners.

Moses indeed wrote about Jesus and revealed that, God appeared to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as God Almighty.
This makes John 1:18 when it explicitly states, No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God, we know the Father was never begotten to earth but instead it was the Father who sent his Son. God from God, light from light, true God from true God. The active testimony of the Fathers Almighty glory and power.

Genesis 17:1
When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD [Yahweh] appeared to him and said, “I am God Almighty; walk before me faithfully and be blameless.

John 8:56
56Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”57“You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”58“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

Genesis 26:24
That night the LORD [Yahewh] appeared to him and said, “I am the God of your father Abraham. Do not be afraid, for I am with you; I will bless you and will increase the number of your descendants for the sake of my servant Abraham.”

Genesis 26:2
The LORD [Yahweh] appeared to Isaac and said, “Do not go down to Egypt; live in the land where I tell you to live.

Genesis 35:9-11
After Jacob returned from Paddan Aram, God appeared to him again and blessed him. 10God said to him, “Your name is Jacob, but you will no longer be called Jacob; your name will be Israel. ” So he named him Israel. 11And God [Yahweh] said to him, “I am God Almighty; be fruitful and increase in number. A nation and a community of nations will come from you, and kings will be among your descendants.

Genesis 48:3
Jacob said to Joseph, “God [Yahweh] Almighty appeared to me at Luz in the land of Canaan, and there he blessed me

Why did Jesus speak CLEARLY for the sake of peoples salvation say that no one has ever seen the Father form. Scripture explain why, it because no one has access to the Father except through the one and only Son.

Ofcouse John believed Jesus was God, that why he called Jesus the Word, God. Remeber the Word was God. Not a false God but true God.

PLEASE STOP FOLLOWING THE pharisees Who could NOT believe that Jesus was THE true Son of God, they thought it was blasphemy because it makes the Son equal with the Father and it appears you follow them and think its also blasphemy.

Jesus accepted worship and Paul and the angels REFUSED Worship. The disciples grabbed JESUS feet and *then* Worshiped him.

Again you have NO FOUNDATION, all you can say is that Jesus isn't an angel but is a angel and you expect me to believe he is NOT truly THE **only** Son of God, God by nature!

PLEASE SHOW ME WHAT JESUS WAS BEFORE HE TOOK FLESH
Every scripture declare that it was God who humbled himself to take flesh, the word was God, Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

Life in THE only true Son of God.
Daniel

[4Thomas]

Quote (terraricca @ April 28 2014,22:37)

Daniel you have to learn to answer my questions also ;if not why do we talking if you are going to do all the talking ;

Hi t,
I only had 10 minutes and didn't even have time to reply to Mike,

You think I lie by calling Jesus THE Son, God. So I ask you WHAT is he before he took flesh???

Here are some **EXPLICIT** examples of Scripture -TRUTH-
of WHAT Jesus was before he took flesh, NOTE: no mention of a angel Jesus, because Jesus is God THE Son. The ***ONLY** true Son of God = God. this is why he was killed!!!

John 1:1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:18
New International Version
No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

Tit 1:3-4
But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of GOD OUR SAVIOR  To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and THE LORD JESUS CHRIST OUR SAVIOR.

Phi 3:20
For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for THE SAVIOR, THE LORD JESUS CHRIST:

Tit 2:13
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and OUR SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST;

2 Peter 1:1
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of OUR GOD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST have received a faith as precious as ours:

1 John 5:20
New International Version
We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

Of course Jesus is the only true Begotten God, Jesus is THE only begotten God and he is NOT a FALSE God. Satan is THE God of all falsehood and lies, he is the source of all lies.

So to answer your question, all the disciples were there when DOUBTING thomas called to said him [JESUS]  My Lord and My God.

John 20:28
Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

What did Jesus say???????

Was it
A: DON'T say that to me
B: Blessed are you and blessed are those that dont see BUT STILL BELIEVE. Jesus even rebuked phili[ for asking to see the Father because Jesus is THE Lord of Glory, Jehovah in the Old testament, the Father never came to earth and the Father was never seen on earth as Jehovah the Almighty. Jesus said for the sake of our salvation. For the sake so we wont be LOST that no-one has ever seen the Father.

There is NO WAY that any reasonable person could read scripture and believe that Jesus was NOT the true and only Son of God, God by nature before he took flesh. You had to have been raised in an environment that has forced you to reject the plain meaning of scriptures, I have meet some wonderful Jehovah Witnesses and even looked at their teachings because I had a crush on a girl who i really wanted to get in touch with who was a Jehovah witness. I was not raised in any church teaching and wasn't even baptised. I can honestly say that there is noway I could believe Jesus was NOT God [the Son] before he took flesh.

Philippians 2:6
New International Version
Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

New Living Translation
Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to.

English Standard Version
who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,

How you think I'm lying for believing that Jesus is God [the Son] is with all honestly beyond my understanding…

Convinve me with YOUR Scripture WHAT jesus was BEFORE he was FLESH.

This is WHAT this debate is all about.
It just child faith believing that Jesus is THE only true Son of God. Son of God = God.   Son of man = man.    Same basic law of understanding.

John 5:18
New International Version
For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

JOHN 5 continues with the greatest revealations

34Not that I accept human testimony; but I mention it that you may be saved.

WHO WAS THE JEHOVAH THAT CAME TO EARTH and praise the name of JEHOVAH. it was Jehovah [the only Son] Study Moses writings and you will see scripture truth

39You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

41“I do not accept glory from human beings,

Matthew 11
25At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. 26Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.

27“All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

28“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

Sorry this is so long but you need to understand this is just a very small section of the weight of scripture I can bring,  Jehovah said he would not give his glory to another, he alone made the heavens , he alone is the first and the last, he alone is savior… I can go on and on with **scripture** TRUTH.

I just ask for ONE scripture that have to teach WHAT foundation you are built on.

WHAT WAS JESUS BEFORE HE TOOK, flesh.

PLEASE convince ME, because you only appear focussed on Jesus in the flesh, the MAN messiah. He is NOT just a man alone, he was only on earth for 33 years, WHAT was he BEFORE the recording of his life..

Please FOR YOUR sake please look at this and test what I say.

Lets compare the scripture TRUTH of WHAT Jesus was before he took flesh.

I hope this effort does not come across as I think i'm better than you, im here because i want nothing more to led people to THE only true Son and his Father.

Also thankyou for your testomony how you love the Son , that was great to read, why not achor your foundation on your beliefts to WHAT Jesus was before he took flesh. You even have admitted that you believe THAT Jesus is FROM and OF the Fathers very substance, that's the truth because he is the true Son.

the only true Son [true God] the only one FROM the Father alone.

with Love, truth and life in the Son
Daniel.
[Please just give me the scriptures that show that the Son was something other than God the Son before he took flesh] otherwise if you cant please choose.

Is the Son
A: more close to being a angel  OR
B: more close to being the nature of his Father God

Happy to answer any questions. Mike, I will try and get back to you tomorrow I just need to check if they captise the greek for the Word, but the sake that it was, *BY* the Word that the heavens where made and that JESUS is revealed by John as The Word that made all things and that “””nothing was made without him””” [the Word] Common sense would indicate that Jesus is the Word that created the heavens etc.. take care and please accept JESUS as the true Son of God [God the only Son].

Happy to end this debate if you cant use scripture to show WHAT Jesus was before he took flesh.

[4Thomas]

Quote (terraricca @ April 28 2014,01:22)

DANIEL Quote Exactly we must submit to the scriptures. KEEP YOUR WORD ;AND MAKE TRUE RESEARCH DO NOT LET THE DEVIL KEEP YOU BLIND

Hi t,
The most important thing you need to know about *the* Son is.

1: Who is he
and
2: What is he

Now we know he is the Son of man when he became flesh.

What I need to know FROm you is WHAT was he before he became flesh.

What does scripture teach. The Word was God, the *only* begotten God. Now if you dont agree you need to use scripture to show WHAT he was *before* he took flesh.

Remember don't use scripture that identifies Jesus as a man in his human nature.

t, I dont think Jesus is Mary, even though he is the Son of man.

Jesus is the ****ONLY**** Son of God, God by nature THATS WHY HE WAS KILLED.

Look into why he was killed and what he was *before* he took flesh

Life in the Son

Daniel

[4Thomas]

Hi T,

Exactly we must submit to the scriptures.

As Jesus the Son of God became the Son of man he came to earth and his life AS A MAN is recorded.

The thing that I believe is the key thing to NOT being LOST is to understand ***WHAT*** Jesus THE Son ofMan was before he was recorded as walking this earth as A MAN (The Son of Man) There are many scriptures that also give prophesy about Jesus as the MAN and the humble servant who was led to the slaughter.

Now the watchtower will say Jesus was Michael and others will say he was just a prophet and Mormons will say the brother of Satan.

Now EVERY SINGLE scripture that talks and reveals what Jesus was before he took flesh reveal he is God, the only begotten God, the very nature God.

Ofcourse if he is THE only true Son, he will have the nature/substance of his Father. I agree totally that Jesus is FROM and OF the Fathers very begotten substance.

John 20
28Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

29Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

These THINGS are truly written So *YOU* will believe THAT Jesus is THE ONLY TRUE SON OF GOD. not just the son of man as recorded in the gospels as he walked that world that was created through him THE WORD/THE SON.

T, try loving Jesus just a little more than you do now and tell the Father its because you also love him, Please tell me why you want me to believe that I cant Love Jesus with all my heart soul and mind and praise him and call him God.

The word was God [THE SON] -the ONE and ONLY begotten God.

If he is NOT your God like he is Thomas God what is he to you, you say hes not your angel and the Father is also your Lord so please answer what Jesus is to you.

blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

Life in the Son
Daniel

[4Thomas]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 23 2014,10:54)

Quote (4Thomas @ April 21 2014,19:30) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 18 2014,12:24) 1.  I want you to recognize that the Apostles of Christ who made the prayer in Acts 4 did NOT consider Jesus to be the one who “made the heavens and the earth and the sea, and everything in them”. Do you recognize that fact?  YES or NO? 2.  Are you willing to use the discretion of the expert Trinitarian scholars who translated the English versions when it comes to “the word of God”?   Are you willing to accept that if the “W” isn't capitalized, the phrase DOESN'T refer to Jesus Christ?  YES or NO? John 1:18 calls him THE **only** begotten God, NOT a god as you cant be THE God and the only God and a God all at the same time. Jehovah is called “a God” a number of times in scripture, Daniel.  In Isaiah 45:21, for instance, Jehovah calls Himself “A just God”. He also calls Himself “a Savior” in that verse – despite the fact that He is elsewhere called “THE Savior”. My two questions still await direct answers, Daniel.   (Btw, the “word of God” scriptures you listed in that last post don't count, since the Trinitarians who made the translation you quoted did not capitalize the “W” in “word” – which means Jesus was not the particular “word of God” mentioned in those scriptures.  The phrase “Word of God” only refers to Jesus when the “W” is capped – remember?  All other times, the phrase simply refers to words that God has spoken.)

Hi Mike,
Sorry have to go, I honestly believe that John was revealing that  the Word that the Father used to create the heavens was THE Son, I also believe that the breath of God is revealed as THE Holy Spirit.
I don't believe that every word or every breath FROM the Father is The Son, just as I don't believe that every breath OF Jesus is the Holy Spirit when he breathed on the disciples and said receive the Holy Spirit.
I will look into the bible schoolar thing about the captial letter but we know that Jesus is THE Word of God [The Son] and we know is was FROM the Father and by/through the Son and in the breath [the Holy Spirit] that all things where created. Every Word always contains the breath of the one who speaks it, a word cannot exist without breath. The Son also contains the Holy Spirit – this is the unity that the Son has with his true Father, The Father has eternally generated the Son with his breath. The Holy Spirit is the spirit of God and the spirit of Christ.
I dont think it was another Word FROM the Father that then THE Son used to create the heavens? do you understand how I see it?

take care mate.
Love and life in the Son
Daniel

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