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Kejonn, what does this mean:
Hearken with your ears to these best counsels:
Gaze at the beams of fire and contemplate with your best judgment.
Let each person choose his creed, with that freedom of choice which each must have at great events:
O ye, awake to these my announcements!”
(Gathas, Yasna 30.2, Dinshaw Irani translation.).
Specifically, the “let each person choose his creed” part.
Forgive my ignorance. Another question.
Zarathustra says in Yasna 31:8
“O’ Mazda, when I was looking for you with my wisdom and speculation faculties and tried to find you with the eye of my heart, I recognized that you are the starter and the end of everything, you are the source of wisdom and reflection and you are the creator of truthfulness and purity and the judge and justice for the behavior of all the human beings.”
If he is the “judge” “for the behavior of all the human beings” in what way does he judge? Will there be a time of judgment? What does him being a judge entail?
Anything?
I also found this in that website which I must ask about.
A very interesting point in zoroastrianism is that “good thought” is the source of human behavior and at the same time it is subject to culture. Therefore, if any of the Zarathustra’s sayings is against the current knowledge of the people, they are allowed to ignore it.
So, does that last statement….what does that tell you?
Hi David
Quote I haven't “seen” you, but I'm quite confident you exist. Why? Because you've communicated with me. Similarly, The God of the most widely distributed book on the planet has done so. Do you get answers when you 'post' prayers? Do you hear voices David?
Stuart
Quote (david @ April 12 2008,21:20) Quote Have you seen God then? What does He look like? –kejonn.
I haven't “seen” you, but I'm quite confident you exist. Why? Because you've communicated with me. Similarly, The God of the most widely distributed book on the planet has done so.
Lame. If you ask me question, I will likely respond. If you ask Yahweh, how will he respond?
Quote Your god, not in the least. I'm still not sure if it's named mazda or zoroaster. I'm still waiting for you to tell me something about it.
Why are you so hung up on names? Are you afraid that “Jehovah” is not correct and that you might have to change your belief to “Mazda Witness”?Whatever the case, Zarathushtra (Zoroaster) was just a man. He called God “Ahura Mazda”.
Quote Quote Wow, the old calendar thing. Have you ever thought that it was the power of the Christian movement versus the actual reality of Christ?
My point was made. You act as if no one has heard of Jesus, when he is the most recognized personage in history. Your god, less than 1% of people have heard of, probably quite a bit less.
Sounds like “satan” got the best of Yahweh again.Quote This is what I meant when I asked if your god was shy.
Question: Does your god want anything from or of us? Did he create us and that's it? No attempt to help us? No attempt to communicate? I actually have no idea about zoraoster, but you're not telling us a lot, are you? Maybe there is nothing to tell….If God REALLY wanted something from us, He'd let us know through other means than an ancient Hebrew book.
Quote “In western countries also, the people are not quite familiar with Zoroastrian philosophy. . . . it can be rightly said that Zoroastrian philosophy, which was the main religious belief system of ancient Iranians and for about several hundred years was the basis of the Iranian culture and their life style, NOW IS ALMOST FORGOTTEN.”
http://www.zoroaster.net/indexe.htmSimple: Islam. Fear and forceful conversion.
Quote Quote What is sad is that neither Matthew or Luke have Jesus being born in either 1 BC or 1 AD. So why the separation?
They don't have a date at all. Obviously, we didn't use those dates back then. And just as obvious, those who set that pivitol point, missed by a few years.
But neither of those things were my point. No one has heard of this zoroaster. Obviously, that is not true of the God of the Bible.
Duh. The god of the bible is “Yahweh”. He loves blood and sacrifice. Ahura Mazda does not desire blood.Quote Quote So Jesus and his followers knew about it, and proceeded to do nothing about it? How lame and selfish of them.
I don't remember saying that. They repeatedly told people to be on guard, to expect it, etc. People have free will. They can believe anything they like, even in gods that don't make themselves known. What would you have them do? Shoot the people that didn't agree? No.
As a side note, zoroastrianism had a similar thing happen.
“This persecution continued up until Reza Shah Pahlavie, the Great came to power and ended such a cruelty to zoroastrians and also other religious minorities. As a result of the hardships Zoroastrians went through, the Zarathustra’s philosophy was transferred heart to heart and THIS CAUSED MANY UNDUE ALTERATIONS THAT WERE NOT IN LINE WITH TRUE Zoroastrianism. . . .Recent philological studies show that many of the contents of Avesta are not genuine and have been added to it in later periods. Obviously, the men of knowledge and those who are familiar with Gatha and the true philosophy of zoroastrianism, know that many of such baseless principles such as Vandidad, do not belong to zoroastrianism “–http://www.zoroaster.net/indexe.htmI guess the difference is, Jesus warned his followers in advance of this. Not so with zoroaster.
Quote So what would you have us all do David?
What I wouldn't have you do is search religions for something that YOU like, and that suits YOU. I wouldn't have you find something that is politically correct and well liked, something that “even stu” can agree with, for the sake of agreement.
What I would have you do is find truth, no matter what it looks like.
“…as long as I shall be able and be strong, so long shall I look in quest of truth.–Y 28:4david
Like any other religion, Zoroastrianism became something that the original revelator did not reveal.Quote (david @ April 12 2008,21:33) Kejonn, what does this mean: Hearken with your ears to these best counsels:
Gaze at the beams of fire and contemplate with your best judgment.
Let each person choose his creed, with that freedom of choice which each must have at great events:
O ye, awake to these my announcements!”
(Gathas, Yasna 30.2, Dinshaw Irani translation.).
Specifically, the “let each person choose his creed” part.
Because each person should choose their own creed. Different life circumstances lead to different decisions.But this is certainly seen in Christianity. One book, 1000s of different denominations. Haven't each of these chosen their own creed?
Its called “free will” david. God does not want mindless puppets.
Quote (david @ April 12 2008,19:43) Kejonn, I'm wondering if you could tell us why you believe in zoroastrianism. How did you arrive at that? Is it because you have one set of beliefs and you feel that this matches up best with what you believe? And if so, is that an indication that it is true?
I don't “believe” in Zoroastrianism. I do find that the Gathas of Zarathushtra are the best representation of how I would view God. It is my right to do so. I cannot accept Yahweh's actions in the OT, nor can I truly believe many of the things said of Jesus in the NT. Neither has a basis in reality.Whether what Z wrote is true or not will never be proven. Just as what is written in the bible will never be proven to be true. Truth in faith is not the same as truth in many other aspects of this life. However, archaeology is showing much of the OT was either highly embellished or just plain false.
Quote (david @ April 12 2008,20:09) Quote God gave us all a conscience. The plan is a simple one overall: seek good thoughts, good words, and good deeds. Deep down, most are capable of this. We don't kneed a book to figure this out. –kejonn
I believe that Jehovah lovingly does not expect us to guess how to please him.
In the Bible he gives clear moral direction, saying in effect: “This is the way. Walk in it, you people.” (Isaiah 30:21)
When we follow his direction, we avoid the frustration and uncertainty of sifting through the conflicting moral opinions of humans. And we can be confident that God’s guidance is always for our good, ‘teaching us to benefit ourselves.’—Isaiah 48:17, 18.Yes, our consciences are helpful. But some can destroy their own consciences. For some people, “their consciences are defiled.” (titus 1:15; compare 1 tim 4:1,2)
So what they consider to be “good” isn't really what God consideres to be good.
People's ideas change. One thing may be wrong and be condemned in the bible, but people get used to that wrong thing, so suddenly it's ok, and “good.” But really, they've trained their consciences to accept what is wrong. Again, it's the frog in the hot water illustration.This is why we need more than our consciences.
Do you follow the 600+ mitzvot of the OT? If not, come back to me when you do. Because before then, you are no different from me in that you choose to do whatever you wish. The real difference is that you choose to justify your choices based on twisting scripture to suit what you wish to do.Quote (david @ April 12 2008,21:20) Quote Have you seen God then? What does He look like? –kejonn.
I haven't “seen” you, but I'm quite confident you exist. Why? Because you've communicated with me. Similarly, The God of the most widely distributed book on the planet has done so.
How so? By influencing primitive Hebrew men in tents to write books about him? How is that real communication? I write a post, you respond, I respond. The bible makes no such responses. It is not true communication.Quote Your god, not in the least. I'm still not sure if it's named mazda or zoroaster. I'm still waiting for you to tell me something about it.
Like what? Would you like for me to tell you who God has or has not killed? What rules He gives and then people later ignore because they say they do not apply to them?Quote Quote Wow, the old calendar thing. Have you ever thought that it was the power of the Christian movement versus the actual reality of Christ?
My point was made. You act as if no one has heard of Jesus, when he is the most recognized personage in history. Your god, less than 1% of people have heard of, probably quite a bit less.
And? You make the “popularity” plea. If this is the case, Allah exists and Mohammed was a great prophet.Quote This is what I meant when I asked if your god was shy.
Question: Does your god want anything from or of us? Did he create us and that's it? No attempt to help us? No attempt to communicate? I actually have no idea about zoraoster, but you're not telling us a lot, are you? Maybe there is nothing to tell….
Well, I can tell you this: God wants us to improve this world through good thoughts, words, and deeds. We can turn to Him and seek guidance for this, but it certainly is not found by picking and choosing from a bunch of rules written by bronze age Hebrews.Quote “In western countries also, the people are not quite familiar with Zoroastrian philosophy. . . . it can be rightly said that Zoroastrian philosophy, which was the main religious belief system of ancient Iranians and for about several hundred years was the basis of the Iranian culture and their life style, NOW IS ALMOST FORGOTTEN.”
http://www.zoroaster.net/indexe.htmQuite so. Ever heard of Islam? The early Muslims forced conversions. Hard for a peaceful faith to survive in the face of that.
I wonder how many JWs are in Iran…
Quote Quote What is sad is that neither Matthew or Luke have Jesus being born in either 1 BC or 1 AD. So why the separation?
They don't have a date at all. Obviously, we didn't use those dates back then. And just as obvious, those who set that pivitol point, missed by a few years.
Mat 2:1 Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, magi from the east arrived in Jerusalem, saying, — 6-4 BCELuk 2:1 Now in those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus, that a census be taken of all the inhabited earth.
Luk 2:2 This was the first census taken while Quirinius was governor of Syria. — 6 CEHow about those dates?
Quote But neither of those things were my point. No one has heard of this zoroaster. Obviously, that is not true of the God of the Bible.
So again, your whole basis is the selling statistics of the bible? The world has heard of buddha, Allah, Zeus, and many others. Does that make them valid?Quote Quote So Jesus and his followers knew about it, and proceeded to do nothing about it? How lame and selfish of them.
I don't remember saying that. They repeatedly told people to be on guard, to expect it, etc. People have free will. They can believe anything they like, even in gods that don't make themselves known. What would you have them do? Shoot the people that didn't agree? No.
Why did Yahweh stop making himself known in the year 100 CE? Did he leave to create a new race of people to worship him?Quote As a side note, zoroastrianism had a similar thing happen.
“This persecution continued up until Reza Shah Pahlavie, the Great came to power and ended such a cruelty to zoroastrians and also other religious minorities. As a result of the hardships Zoroastrians went through, the Zarathustra’s philosophy was transferred heart to heart and THIS CAUSED MANY UNDUE ALTERATIONS THAT WERE NOT IN LINE WITH TRUE Zoroastrianism. . . .Recent philological studies show that many of the contents of Avesta are not genuine and have been added to it in later periods. Obviously, the men of knowledge and those who are familiar with Gatha and the true philosophy of zoroastrianism, know that many of such baseless principles such as Vandidad, do not belong to zoroastrianism “–http://www.zoroaster.net/indexe.htm
I agree. Just like I agree that the Hebrew religion changed during the Exile, and Christianity truly has little in common with Judaism. Your point?Quote I guess the difference is, Jesus warned his followers in advance of this. Not so with zoroaster. If Jesus truly said those things. Whatever the case, it
is easy to make such predictions because I can say the same about any faith. It is easy to say people will not accept what is being said because the writers of the NT already had the nay-sayers for decades.Wow, what prophecy.
Quote Quote So what would you have us all do David?
What I wouldn't have you do is search religions for something that YOU like, and that suits YOU.
Just like you being a Jehovah's Witness? Why not be a baptist, methodist, catholic, lutheran, church of God, church of Christ, assembly of God, pentecostal, episcopalian, etc.? Haven't you in turn chose to follow the sect of Christianity that suits you?Pot, kettle, black.
Quote I wouldn't have you find something that is politically correct and well liked, something that “even stu” can agree with, for the sake of agreement.
What I would have you do is find truth, no matter what it looks like.
“…as long as I shall be able and be strong, so long shall I look in quest of truth.–Y 28:4david
Truth? What is truth in religion? Truth is what you have come to accept. Your “truth” is not the “truth” that a Muslim will accept, or a Mormon, or a Hindu, or any other person of a different faith. You have no way to show your “truth” is indeed the real truth.Get back with me when you can show me that what you believe is really the truth.
Quote (david @ April 12 2008,21:52) Forgive my ignorance. Another question. Zarathustra says in Yasna 31:8
“O’ Mazda, when I was looking for you with my wisdom and speculation faculties and tried to find you with the eye of my heart, I recognized that you are the starter and the end of everything, you are the source of wisdom and reflection and you are the creator of truthfulness and purity and the judge and justice for the behavior of all the human beings.”
If he is the “judge” “for the behavior of all the human beings” in what way does he judge? Will there be a time of judgment? What does him being a judge entail?
Anything?
I know as a JW you are looking forward to God punishing people who do not believe as you, so I am already aware of the answer you want.From Song 11 (Yasna 46)
- 10. Wise God, whoever, man or woman, shall give me what You know to be the best in life—rewards for righteousness, power through good mind—I shall accompany him and her in glorifying such as You are, and shall, with all of them, cross over the sorting bridge.
11. The priests and princes yoke people under duress to destroy life with their evil actions. But their souls and their consciences shall upbraid them when they approach the sorting bridge, because they have been all the time dwelling in the house of wrong.From Ali A. Jafarey's translation notes:
- Chinvato-peretu: literally “the bridge of sorting or culling,” is the state wherein the soul of a righteous person passes on to immortality but the soul of a wrongful person turns back and remains behind in order to further mature spiritually.
From http://www.zoroastrianism.cc/discussions_20.html
- However, the process of keeping ourselves in Asha is not easy, even for those who know, understand and practice the teaching. So it can be even more difficult for those that do not. What happens to those who do not? Well in order to achieve completion one must put away wrong and substitute
it with right. If one does not, one has failed. However, Mazda is Merciful and Loving. The souls of the wrongful and of the rightful go to the Chinvat Peretu, The Bridge of Separation. This allegorical bridge separates The Abode of Mazda, also called, The Best Life, Vohu Mana Demana, or the Abode of Loving Good Mind and/or Garo Demana, the Abode of Song from this world and from the Abode of Wrong.Now these are states of mind and being and not physical places. At the Chinvat, the souls are separated. The wrongful are accused by their Ethical consciousness and cannot “cross” the Bridge , because remorse exposes them to the truth that they are wrongful and in the Best Life, there is no wrong. These souls return to the House of Wrong, This 'House” is not this Living World, The Living World is created Good. The wrong we bring into our lives and those of others, because of our wrong choices, does not make the world evil. It is our wrong choices and their consequences that are evil.
So where do the souls of the wrongful return to? They return to an existence, but an existence in the spirit, in another reality, where they can still choose between right and wrong and learn how to deliver wrong unto right. There is no Hell and no condemnation. We punish ourselves with deep and agonizing remorse, if we have been wrongful and we go on. Eventually, All will learn to deliver wrong unto right and all would learn that right is done for its own sake. Then all will choose it, all will be Completed, the Cosmos and this Living World will be renewed and the Power of wrong and evil
will be forever utterly destroyed.From http://www.zoroastrianism.cc/discussions_31.html
- Namely the Gathas say That your soul, or self (urvan), survives the separation from the body and finds itself before a bridge, or parapet, called Chinvat Peretu, which hich roughly translates as the Bridge of Separation.
There are many interpretations of this bridge, but in general, since many of the Zarathushtrian concepts are abstractions, I believe that this bridge stands for the chasm, that separates (In ethical and spiritual, and not physical, terms) this physical existence from what is called in the Gathas, the Best, or Highest Existence.
When the Urvan comes before this bridge, it judges itself. In fact, its conscience judges it as well. The concept of conscience in Zoroastrianism is not quite the same as in Christianity . It is best to see it as a Consciousness of what is right and what is wrong and therefore it is an Ethical Conscience. In Zoroastrianism, ethical does not equate to moral. Moral is something that is judged to be wrong/evil by a society, or an authority; it does not have to have wrongful/evil intent. Ethical its that, which is intrinsically wrong in and of itself
Getting back to the Bridge and the self judgment of the Soul, several passages in the Gathas either say outright, or imply, that the soul suffers remorse and that the soul which has realized itself, ( In Gathic terms achieved to full Haurvatat, which means Completion/Perfection/Wholeness), crosses the Chinvat with the aid and presence of Zarathushtra himself.
What happens to the ones who have not reached full Haurvatat? Well there are different interpretations, but, looking at the whole context of the Gathas, the aim of life is to learn to choose righteously, or correctly. For example, it is repeatedly said that when the erred (or some translation say the sinners) have received their due, they too are taught by Vohumana ( Loving Good Thinking, or Mind, or Good Thinking/Mind).how to deliver drug (Deceit/Falsehoo/Wrongfulness/Lie) unto the hands of Asha (Right/Correctfulness/Righteousness/Truth.)
What this means is that, the wrongful will also learn to be righteous. Thus this implies that a method for achieving this 'learning' exists and that, at least some times, it comes after the wrongful has received the just returns of his wrongfulness. Clearly this implies some sort of judgement and since we already know that it is a self-judgment, it makes no sense to consider that there will be some sort of eternal, place of fiery torment.
This however, has not prevented some from translating some passages like such a hell could exist in the context of Gathic theology. However, if we look at Song 14.11 and its context, we see the positions clearly before us. Some translations say that the souls of the evil doing , evil scheming, evil speaking, are punished in the House of Wrong and given foul food. Other say that the souls of the the wicked return back from the Chinvat, because they have always lived in the House of Wrong. Now this Hpouse of Wrong is the opposite of the House of High, or Best Mind and they are both states of mind, abstractions and not geographical places. Thus the House of Wrong cannot stand for a Zarathushtrian hell, in the Abrahamic sense, nor for the planet Earth, as some think.
So, in the context of Gathic teaching, what is one to believe what the correct interpretation is? Well we know that Mazda Ahura is said to be Benevolent to all the living, a friend, ally and a soul mate to man. The immediate followers of Zarathushtra called Mazda Ahura All Good and incapable of harm. We have seen that the judgement and its punishment in the Chinvat is self inflicted by means of remorse. We have also seen that the wrongful will be taught to choose right. Indeed it is said in Song 3, that only then will the power of evil be shattered and all who strive for a good name shall be immendiately joined in the Abode of the Most Wise.
Thus it is obvious that an additional punishment, specially one involviong torment, is not present in the Gathas, not is it contemplated and it does not 'fit' the Gathic theology. But the final blow to hell torment in Zoroastrianism, comes from the very fact that all Zarathushtrian theology is based on the fact
that mortals must learn to choose what is right and that is the very purpose of existence . Thus life is our school and the consequences, or just deserts, of our choices, are the ones who teach us what is right. Thus there is no room to punish a race which was created imperfect and placed here to gain perfection! Therefore the position that there is a hell, in the Abrahamic sense, is wrong in Zoroastrianism and not supported by the Gathas.Quote Lame. If you ask me question, I will likely respond. If you ask Yahweh, how will he respond? –kejonn.
I guess through his word, the Bible, the most available book in the universe. That was the point in having it written. There is nothing man hasn't gone through that wasn't recorded in there. There are principles and advice on virtually everything.
If you ask zoroaster, how would he respond?
Of course, none of this had to do with my point, which was, you don't have to see someone to know they exist, as I know you exist, and havne't seen you. So my point was made. Your responce of “lame, etc…” had nothing to do with what I was saying.
Quote Why are you so hung up on names? Are you afraid that “Jehovah” is not correct and that you might have to change your belief to “Mazda Witness”?
At the time, I actually wasn't quite sure if zoroaster was the name of the god or mazda. As it turns out, zoroaster is the guy who wrote about him. My point was that no one has heard of your god, and he is “almost forgotten” as the zoroaster.net website said.Quote Whatever the case, Zarathushtra (Zoroaster) was just a man. He called God “Ahura Mazda”.
Yes, figured that out.Quote If God REALLY wanted something from us, He'd let us know through other means than an ancient Hebrew book.
What if the thing God wanted from us was to search him out and to do the work, and thereby show the effort and love involved. Yes, he could beam something into our heads, but what would that prove?Quote Simple: Islam. Fear and forceful conversion.
So the reason this god is “almost forgotten” is because of Islam and forceful conversion? Still, the very meaning of the word “god” usually involves defintions like “mighty one” “powerful one” etc. I cannot see reason to put that word to mazda, who is “almost forgotten.”Quote Because each person should choose their own creed. Different life circumstances lead to different decisions. But this is certainly seen in Christianity. One book, 1000s of different denominations. Haven't each of these chosen their own creed?
Its called “free will” david. God does not want mindless puppets.
Right, but in Christianity, Jesus said he was the “way” and there was only one road, a narrow road. Yes, there are thousands of different denominations teaching wrong things, but this is not what Jesus nor his Father wanted. Yet, what I quoted from zoroaster seems to indicate that it is fine to “let each person choose his creed.”
Yet, you are not doing this, or following it. If it is fine to “let each person choose his creed,” as your religion dictates, why are you so concerned about what others believe and why the desire to show their creeds wrong?Quote I don't “believe” in Zoroastrianism. I do find that the Gathas of Zarathushtra are the best representation of how I would view God. It is my right to do so. I cannot accept Yahweh's actions in the OT, nor can I truly believe many of the things said of Jesus in the NT. Neither has a basis in reality. So, your teaching is: NO ONE HAS THE TRUTH. Yet, you believe in God. It must be a god of confusion you believe in. For this is your aim, and this is your belief.
Quote However, archaeology is showing much of the OT was either highly embellished or just plain false.
I think you're highly confused on this. Over and over archaelogy has proven the bible correct.Quote Do you follow the 600+ mitzvot of the OT? If not, come back to me when you do. Because before then, you are no different from me in that you choose to do whatever you wish. The real difference is that you choose to justify your choices based on twisting scripture to suit what you wish to do. “why then the law”?
It was needed to make transgressions manifest. But Jesus “nailed it” to the torture stake. It was 'abolished.' The law covenant was a covenant between Israel and God. They broke it. Hence, the new covenant.But this thread is about zoroaster and mazda, is it not?
I know you're much more comfortable attacking than defending, and that you, like stu (who when asked: 'what do you know for certain' has no answers) do not really believe anything. So you are safe in your beliefs. For you, nothing is certain.
Quote each person should choose their own creed. –kejonn (and the gathas)
Why say this and then attack that same creed?
Quote Like what? Like anything, other than his name, which we now have established is ahur mazda.
Quote And? You make the “popularity” plea. If this is the case, Allah exists and Mohammed was a great prophet.
Incorrect. I'm not really making a popularity plea so much as an “unpopularity” plea, or really, a no one has ever heard of this god plea, so he's not much of a god “mighty one.” True, in comparison, I used the Bible. But really, we could compare him to many different ones and he would come up short.Quote Well, I can tell you this: God wants us to improve this world through good thoughts, words, and deeds. We can turn to Him and seek guidance for this, but it certainly is not found by picking and choosing from a bunch of rules written by bronze age Hebrews. Even if your thoughts were something great, the same could be said of your thoughts a thousand years from now. I can't remember what the fallacy is, but it's a fallacy to believe something is wrong because it is old.
Quote God wants us to improve this world through good thoughts, words, and deeds.
Questions:
1. Why does your god not improve the world himself? (I have answers from the Bible, but I'm wondering why YOUR god hasn't done this)2. What are “good thoughts words and deeds”? Can you give something more specific? Every terrorist thinks what they are doing is good. Every war waged was for someone's good. 15 years ago, homosexuality was bad, today it is good. Man's thoughts change, but does your god change with man's thoughts? Or does your god have any actual standards that are unchangeable?
Quote Quite so. Ever heard of Islam? The early Muslims forced conversions. Hard for a peaceful faith to survive in the face of that.
Is your god only in Iran? Or did he create the whole world of mankind?Quote I wonder how many JWs are in Iran…
Not sure offhand, but we go where others won't. We're the second biggest religion in the vatican for example, because obviously, no one else will go there. We operate in 30 countries where it is illegal to do so. Iran is one of them, so any official numbers are sketchy. But yes, we have a very small population in iran.Quote Mat 2:1 Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, magi from the east arrived in Jerusalem, saying, — 6-4 BCE Luk 2:1 Now in those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus, that a census be taken of all the inhabited earth.
Luk 2:2 This was the first census taken while Quirinius was governor of Syria. — 6 CEHow about those dates?
I know you're trying to say something here, I'm just not sure what. Please explain.
Quote So again, your whole basis is the selling statistics of the bible? The world has heard of buddha, Allah, Zeus, and many others. Does that make them valid?
So again, I'm not saying that because something is popular it's true, I'm saying that if your god is a god, someone somewhere would have heard of him.Quote Why did Yahweh stop making himself known in the year 100 CE? Did he leave to create a new race of people to worship him? So you didn't notice the good news being preached in all the inhabited earth then, as fortold? (Mat 24:14) I assure you more people know of him today than in 100 C.E.
Quote Just like you being a Jehovah's Witness? Why not be a baptist, methodist, catholic, lutheran, church of God, church of Christ, assembly of God, pentecostal, episcopalian, etc.? Haven't you in turn chose to follow the sect of Christianity that suits you?
No, quite the opposite. I came from a divided family. Choosing to be different, to not partake with certain things, to be rejected by family members, kicked out of wills (crazy I know) etc was decidely not the easiest road. So your remark of:Quote Pot, kettle, black. makes little sense.
All I've heard from you is that the OT god is cruel and you dislike this and your god isn't. So this is what suits you that you have found in this god.
Quote I know as a JW you are looking forward to God punishing people who do not believe as you, so I am already aware of the answer you want. You know even less than I imagined.
Quote (david @ April 14 2008,15:03) Quote Lame. If you ask me question, I will likely respond. If you ask Yahweh, how will he respond? –kejonn.
I guess through his word, the Bible, the most available book in the universe. That was the point in having it written. There is nothing man hasn't gone through that wasn't recorded in there. There are principles and advice on virtually everything.
Should I use drugs? What does the bible say about that? Should I watch Ultimate Fighting, what does the bible say about that?Quote If you ask zoroaster, how would he respond?
Zoroaster is dead, I won't be asking him anything. But I can contemplate something and seek guidance from God through prayer and reflection. I don't have to find some biblical reference to figure it out. In fact, more people have justified wrong actions by taking the bible literally in some places.Quote Of course, none of this had to do with my point, which was, you don't have to see someone to know they exist, as I know you exist, and havne't seen you. So my point was made. Your responce of “lame, etc…” had nothing to do with what I was saying.
No, it still doesn't work because I can respond specifically to you, while the bible cannot. So how do you know what God would have you do in life?Quote Quote Why are you so hung up on names? Are you afraid that “Jehovah” is not correct and that you might have to change your belief to “Mazda Witness”?
At the time, I actually wasn't quite sure if zoroaster was the name of the god or mazda. As it turns out, zoroaster is the guy who wrote about him. My point was that no one has heard of your god, and he is “almost forgotten” as the zoroaster.net website said.
And your point is? Again, you are making the plea of popularity to show the bible is valid. When will you say the same about the Koran?Quote Quote Whatever the case, Zarathushtra (Zoroaster) was just a man. He called God “Ahura Mazda”.
Yes, figured that out.Quote If God REALLY wanted something from us, He'd let us know through other means than an ancient Hebrew book.
What if the thing God wanted from us was to search him out and to do the work, and thereby show the effort and love involved. Yes, he could beam something into our heads, but what would that prove?
But we're supposed to instead turn to a book that paints God in a brutal light? No thanks.Quote Quote Simple: Islam. Fear and forceful conversion.
So the reason this god is “almost forgotten” is because of Islam and forceful conversion? Still, the very meaning of the word “god” usually involves defintions like “mighty one” “powerful one” etc. I cannot see reason to put that word to mazda, who is “almost forgotten.”
I guess you didn't understand. Both Christianity and Islam have grown to epic proportions due to political power. Constantine made Christianity the “state religion” and it took off from there. The RCC pushed their doctrine on the masses and did not allow them to have access to bibles but to belief what they said instead.Islam is the same. Before Islam, Zoroastrianism was the predominant religion in Persia. It was always a peaceful faith, and its adherents fell to the sword of Muslims. It has nothing to do with God's power, but everything to do with greedy and ruthless men seeking power.
Quote Quote Because each person should choose their own creed. Different life circumstances lead to different decisions. But this is certainly seen in Christianity. One book, 1000s of different denominations. Haven't each of these chosen their own creed?
Its called “free will” david. God does not want mindless puppets.
Right, but in Christianity, Jesus said he was the “way” and there was only one road, a narrow road. Yes, there are thousands of different denominations teaching wrong things, but this is not what Jesus nor his Father wanted. Yet, what I quoted from zoroaster seems to indicate that it is fine to “let each person choose his creed.”So who has it right in Christianity David? When you can tell me that and show me that what you say is true, we can discuss from there. Until then, you are certainly making your own creed.
Quote Yet, you are not doing this, or following it. If it is fine to “let each person choose his creed,” as your religion dictates, why are you so concerned about what others believe and why the desire to show their creeds wrong?
Because rigid fundamentalism is harmful to humanity IMHO. And because I believe that Yahweh is an evil, ruthless picture of God and I don't like for Him to be pictured as Ares, god of war.Quote Quote I don't “believe” in Zoroastrianism. I do find that the Gathas of Zarathushtra are the best representation of how I would view God. It is my right to do so. I
cannot accept Yahweh's actions in the OT, nor can I truly believe many of the things said of Jesus in the NT. Neither has a basis in reality.So, your teaching is: NO ONE HAS THE TRUTH. Yet, you believe in God. It must be a god of confusion you believe in. For this is your aim, and this is your belief.
Show me your version of truth, and there will be 5 other Christians on here who disagree with you. Which one of you will have truth?Quote Quote However, archaeology is showing much of the OT was either highly embellished or just plain false.
I think you're highly confused on this. Over and over archaelogy has proven the bible correct.
I think you need to update your research. Pick up The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts . From that link:- The Bible Unearthed is a balanced, thoughtful, bold reconsideration of the historical period that produced the Hebrew Bible. The headline news in this book is easy to pick out: there is no evidence for the existence of Abraham, or any of the Patriarchs; ditto for Moses and the Exodus; and the same goes for the whole period of Judges and the united monarchy of David and Solomon. In fact, the authors argue that it is impossible to say much of anything about ancient Israel until the seventh century B.C., around the time of the reign of King Josiah. In that period, “the narrative of the Bible was uniquely suited to further the religious reform and territorial ambitions of Judah.” Yet the authors deny that their arguments should be construed as compromising the Bible's power. Only in the 18th century–“when the Hebrew Bible began to be dissected and studied in isolation from its powerful function in community life”–did readers begin to view the Bible as a source of empirically verifiable history. For most of its life, the Bible has been what Finkelstein and Silberman reveal it once more to be: an eloquent expression of “the deeply rooted sense of shared origins, experiences, and destiny that every human community needs in order to survive,” written in such a way as to encompass “the men, women, and children, the rich, the poor, and the destitute of an entire community.” –Michael Joseph Gross –.
Quote (david @ April 14 2008,15:27) Quote each person should choose their own creed. –kejonn (and the gathas)
Why say this and then attack that same creed?
Because some creeds would have others living in fear and believing God is a merciless killer.Quote (david @ April 14 2008,15:25) Quote Do you follow the 600+ mitzvot of the OT? If not, come back to me when you do. Because before then, you are no different from me in that you choose to do whatever you wish. The real difference is that you choose to justify your choices based on twisting scripture to suit what you wish to do. “why then the law”?
It was needed to make transgressions manifest. But Jesus “nailed it” to the torture stake. It was 'abolished.' The law covenant was a covenant between Israel and God. They broke it. Hence, the new covenant.But this thread is about zoroaster and mazda, is it not?
I know you're much more comfortable attacking than defending, and that you, like stu (who when asked: 'what do you know for certain' has no answers) do not really believe anything. So you are safe in your beliefs. For you, nothing is certain.
You've given very little for me to defend.Quote (david @ April 14 2008,15:56) Quote Like what? Like anything, other than his name, which we now have established is ahur mazda.
Quote And? You make the “popularity” plea. If this is the case, Allah exists and Mohammed was a great prophet.
Incorrect. I'm not really making a popularity plea so much as an “unpopularity” plea, or really, a no one has ever heard of this god plea, so he's not much of a god “mighty one.” True, in comparison, I used the Bible. But really, we could compare him to many different ones and he would come up short.
Again you fail to see why this is so. Zoroastrianism was never about fear. Thus, it could not be used as a tool. It will never be popular because people cannot grasp a religion that is not about promises of heaven or threats of hell. They think religions must be about characters performing miraculous feats and promising to return to destroy those who don't agree with you. IOW, most religions feed on the base emotions of man and don't really appeal to deep thinkers.I am regretfully, an open-minded man of logic and reason. As such, deep down, Christianity has never fully appealed to me and seemed to be missing something. When I studied the OT it really started to bother me. When I encountered the Gathas, the light went on and I knew I had discovered what I believed to be a more accurate view of God.
No one really knows about God. If He wanted us to know more about Him, He wouldn't just influence bronze and iron age men to write about Him. The bible would still be growing today if God really wanted us to know more about Him.
Quote Quote Well, I can tell you this: God wants us to improve this world through good thoughts, words, and deeds. We can turn to Him and seek guidance for this, but it certainly is not found by picking and choosing from a bunch of rules written by bronze age Hebrews. Even if your thoughts were something great, the same could be said of your thoughts a thousand years from now. I can't remember what the fallacy is, but it's a fallacy to believe something is wrong because it is old.
Should homosexuals be put to death in your estimation?Quote Quote God wants us to improve this world through good thoughts, words, and deeds.
Questions:
1. Why does your god not improve the world himself? (I have answers from the Bible, but I'm wondering why YOUR god hasn't done this)
Because He created it for us. Let me ask you, do you have children? When they get past a certain age, do you constantly interfere in their life, or do you let them live it as responsible adults?Quote 2. What are “good thoughts words and deeds”? Can you give something more specific? Every terrorist thinks what they are doing is good. Every war waged was for someone's good. And where do these terrorists get their ideas? From religious texts, based on the OT as a root (Islam is an Abrahamic religion). If the Jews were doing today what they said they were doing in the OT, would they not be the terrorists of today?
You're not doing yourself any favors.
Quote 15 years ago, homosexuality was bad, today it is good. Man's thoughts change, but does your god change with man's thoughts? Or does your god have any actual standards that are unchangeable?
Stu has been asking on here, but why is homosexuality wrong? I don't like it, but that's my preference.Homosexuality is observed in the animal world. How do you explain that? Satan after the animals too?
Quote Quote Quite so. Ever heard of Islam? The early Muslims forced conversions. Hard for a peaceful faith to survive in the face of that.
Is your god only in Iran? Or did he create the whole world of mankind?
Yahweh started out as one of many gods amongst some semitic tribes. So your point is?Quote Quote I wonder how many JWs are in Iran…
Not sure offhand, but we go where others won't. We're the second biggest religion in the vatican for example, because obviously, no one else will go there. We operate in 30 countries where it is illegal to do so. Iran is one of them, so any official numbers are sketchy. But yes, we have a very small population in iran.Quote Mat 2:1 Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, magi from the east arrived in Jerusalem, saying, — 6-4 BCE Luk 2:1 Now in those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus, that a census be taken of all the inhabited earth.
Luk 2:2 This was the first census taken while Quirinius was governor of Syria. — 6 CEHow about those dates?
I know you're trying to say something here, I'm just not sure what. Please explain.
You said the bible didn't have dates, but you can get dates from history. Neither of these have Jesus being born 1 BCE or 1 CE.Quote Quote So again, your whole basis is the selling statistics of the bible? The world has heard of buddha, Allah, Zeus, and many others. Does that make them valid?
So again, I'm not saying that because something is popular it's true, I'm saying that if your god is a god, someone somewhere would have heard of him.
This is a very telling tactic.Let me ask you, how long did it take for news of Jesus to spread as far as it has?
Quote Quote Why did Yahweh stop making himself known in the year 100 CE? Did he leave to create a new race of people to worship him? So you didn't notice the good news being preached in all the inhabited earth then, as fortold? (Mat 24:14) I assure you more people know of him today than in 100 C.E.
Have you ever considered that this is a forced prophecy? Many evangelicals are forcing prophecy even today. They want to see the end times, so they are trying their best to see certain things fulfilled. Southern Baptists alone spend millions each year to send out missionaries.Quote Quote Just like you being a Jehovah's Witness? Why not be a baptist, methodist, catholic, lutheran, church of God, church of Christ, assembly of God, pentecostal, episcopalian, etc.? Haven't you in turn chose to follow the sect of Christianity that suits you?
No, quite the opposite. I came from a divided family. Choosing to be different, to not partake with certain things, to be rejected by family members, kicked out of wills (crazy I know) etc was decidely not the easiest road. So your remark of:Quote Pot, kettle, black. makes little sense.
All I've heard from you is that the OT god is cruel and you dislike this and your god isn't. So this is what suits you that you have found in this god.
Yes, I like my God to be a benefactor, not a destroyer. But hey, what do I know
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