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Quote Ahura Mazda's creation — evident as asha, truth and order — is the antithesis of chaos, evident as druj, falsehood and disorder. The resulting conflict involves the entire universe, including humanity, which has an active role to play in the conflict. –cato
Again, this is my point in the other thread, kejonn. If the “resulting conflict involves the entire universe, including humanity” you'd think he'd tell some people about it.
Quote (david @ April 11 2008,00:46) Quote Ahura Mazda's creation — evident as asha, truth and order — is the antithesis of chaos, evident as druj, falsehood and disorder. The resulting conflict involves the entire universe, including humanity, which has an active role to play in the conflict. –cato
Again, this is my point in the other thread, kejonn. If the “resulting conflict involves the entire universe, including humanity” you'd think he'd tell some people about it.
So you assume he does so through a book? Can we find that book in the self-help section?God gave us all a conscience. The plan is a simple one overall: seek good thoughts, good words, and good deeds. Deep down, most are capable of this. We don't kneed a book to figure this out.
David,
I agree with Kevin, do you really need to be told in holy script to “seek good thoughts, good words, and good deeds”, isn't this written in our hearts? Can anyone argue with such? Even a professed, athiest like Stuart, I believe would find no fault in such doctrine; it is such a basic goal that it needs no creed or miracles to be self evident. If something ever really came from God I think it would be like this, clear and without fault.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 12 2008,08:38) Hi cato,
No.
The script is corrupt.
It needs rewriting by the Spirit.
We converge in our agreement by the hour!Stuart
Quote (Cato @ April 12 2008,02:15) David, I agree with Kevin, do you really need to be told in holy script to “seek good thoughts, good words, and good deeds”, isn't this written in our hearts? Can anyone argue with such? Even a professed, athiest like Stuart, I believe would find no fault in such doctrine; it is such a basic goal that it needs no creed or miracles to be self evident. If something ever really came from God I think it would be like this, clear and without fault.
Phi 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.There are countless others about which we might agree. None of them are the original thoughts of christians nor exclusive to Abrahamic religions, they are wisdom and ethics that existed long before Adam and Eve.
Stuart
Quote God gave us all a conscience. The plan is a simple one overall: seek good thoughts, good words, and good deeds. Deep down, most are capable of this. We don't kneed a book to figure this out. –kejonn.
Look at the world. I think you're wrong.
Quote Even a professed, athiest like Stuart, I believe would find no fault in such doctrine;
Yes, “be good” is politically correct, and hard to argue with. The God of the Bible demands a little more. That we get to know him, for example. That we tell others about him and his son.I truly think it is Satan at work with the watering down of Christianity that actually promotes that “be good and that's enough” philosophy.
You can't argue with it, because it doesn't say anything.Quote I agree with Kevin, do you really need to be told in holy script to “seek good thoughts, good words, and good deeds”, isn't this written in our hearts?
Yes, but….his name, for example, isn't. We can learn about God through creation, etc, but to find his name, for example, requires him to tell us somehow.Quote If something ever really came from God I think it would be like this, clear and without fault.
Often, when man sees fault in another, it is his own error.Hi David
Humans tend to have more sophistication than “be good”, and also more compexity to their reasoning than is described in scripture. “It is an abomination” is just as crude and unresoning as “be good”.
Stuart
Quote (david @ April 11 2008,18:55) Quote God gave us all a conscience. The plan is a simple one overall: seek good thoughts, good words, and good deeds. Deep down, most are capable of this. We don't kneed a book to figure this out. –kejonn.
Look at the world. I think you're wrong.
Look at the predominant religions of the world: Christianity and Islam. Both have done their best to impede scientific progress. Both have had many followers with much blood on their hands.Quote Quote Even a professed, athiest like Stuart, I believe would find no fault in such doctrine;
Yes, “be good” is politically correct, and hard to argue with. The God of the Bible demands a little more. That we get to know him, for example. That we tell others about him and his son.
To think that God would bring His plan to fruition through a carpenter's son in the Middle East, when there is no proof the son ever existed outside of writings by anonymous authors seems like a very short-sighted and weak plan. Certainly not the plan of an almighty God.Quote I truly think it is Satan at work with the watering down of Christianity that actually promotes that “be good and that's enough” philosophy.
You can't argue with it, because it doesn't say anything.
What would you have them do? Follow JW ways I'm sure.Quote Quote I agree with Kevin, do you really need to be told in holy script to “seek good thoughts, good words, and good deeds”, isn't this written in our hearts?
Yes, but….his name, for example, isn't. We can learn about God through creation, etc, but to find his name, for example, requires him to tell us somehow.
Why does a name matter? Will giving a name to God make anything better or worse?For most of their lives, all a child knows of his parents is “mom” and “dad”.
Quote Quote If something ever really came from God I think it would be like this, clear and without fault.
Often, when man sees fault in another, it is his own error.
Huh?Quote (Stu @ April 12 2008,11:48) Quote (Cato @ April 12 2008,02:15) David, I agree with Kevin, do you really need to be told in holy script to “seek good thoughts, good words, and good deeds”, isn't this written in our hearts? Can anyone argue with such? Even a professed, athiest like Stuart, I believe would find no fault in such doctrine; it is such a basic goal that it needs no creed or miracles to be self evident. If something ever really came from God I think it would be like this, clear and without fault.
Phi 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.There are countless others about which we might agree. None of them are the original thoughts of christians nor exclusive to Abrahamic religions, they are wisdom and ethics that existed long before Adam and Eve.
Stuart
Hi Stu,
Of course.
God is the source.Quote (Stu @ April 12 2008,12:00) Hi David Humans tend to have more sophistication than “be good”, and also more compexity to their reasoning than is described in scripture. “It is an abomination” is just as crude and unresoning as “be good”.
Stuart
Hi Stu,
You need some light and truth.
We know where it is found.So now you are happy that god is the source of ethics before Adam and Eve? I can smell the burning of the ripped out pages of your old testament from here!
Stuart
Hi Stu,
God is the source of all that is good.
God is also the source of all and His gift of freedom to all before Adam resulted in Satan's evil choice.
Now God is cleansing all of heaven and earth through a puny man like us, Jesus Christ of Nazareth, thus shaming the glorious ones above.Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 12 2008,16:52) Hi Stu,
God is the source of all that is good.
God is also the source of all and His gift of freedom to all before Adam resulted in Satan's evil choice.
Now God is cleansing all of heaven and earth through a puny man like us, Jesus Christ of Nazareth, thus shaming the glorious ones above.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooaGhYFHIzgStuart
Quote To think that God would bring His plan to fruition through a carpenter's son in the Middle East, when there is no proof the son ever existed outside of writings by anonymous authors seems like a very short-sighted and weak plan. Certainly not the plan of an almighty God. –kejonn
Yes, Kejonn, that's right. Instead, God's plan was to hide himself where no one would ever find him. He doesn't care if people know him, or if he exists, and something like 99% of the planet haven't even heard of his name. Yes, that makes far more sense.
Calanders date from Jesus' birth. For someone that never existed, he's had more influence on mankind than anyone else. Can you imagine how great an influence he had if he actually existed! Wow.
To call God's plan short sighted in light of what you believe, is just bizarre.Quote Christianity . . .have done their best to impede scientific progress. Both have had many followers with much blood on their hands. –kejonn
Yes, just as Jesus and his followers predicted. Your point?
One exampe of a hundred:
“2 PETER 2:1-3 (c. 64 C.E.)
“However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among you. These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects . . . .Furthermore, many will follow their acts of loose conduct, and ON ACCOUNT OF THESE THINGS THE WAY OF THE TRUTH [CHRISTIANITY] WILL BE SPOKEN OF ABUSIVELY. Also, with covetousness they will exploit you with counterfeit words.”It is just as fortold. As well, the many “sects” that formed, just as fortold:
Historian Will Durant points out:
“Celsus [second-century opponent of Christianity] himself had sarcastically observed that Christians were ‘split up into ever so many factions, each individual desiring to have his own party.’ About 187 [C.E.] Irenaeus listed twenty varieties of Christianity; about 384 [C.E.] Epiphanius counted eighty.”—The Story of Civilization: Part III—Caesar and Christ.)The bloodshed and twisted teachings by the majority of “Christians” are actually proof that Jesus and his followers were correct. They even said that some would “forbid to marry” and “abstain” from certain foods. Remind you of the Catholic priests and not eating meat on fridays?
1 TIMOTHY 4:1-3 (c. 61-64 C.E.)
“However, the inspired utterance says definitely that in later periods of time some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired utterances and teachings of demons, by the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, marked in their conscience as with a branding iron; forbidding to marry, commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be partaken of with thanksgiving by those who have faith and accurately know the truth.”Anyway, this is false Christianity and we all agree it is bad.
But, when I said that I was responding to this:
Quote God gave us all a conscience. The plan is a simple one overall: seek good thoughts, good words, and good deeds. Deep down, most are capable of this. We don't kneed a book to figure this out. Kejonn, the idea that God just wants us to “be good” is actually part of the apostasized Christianity I mentioned. God wants us also to avoid bad. He wants us to “meet together,” to “preach the good news,” etc. You do need a book to learn his name. You do need a book to find out specifics of what he does in fact require. The watered down “be good” of Christianity is apostate Christianity.
Quote Why does a name matter? Will giving a name to God make anything better or worse?
Kejonn, the first thing someone learns about someone else is their name. Are you close to anyone who's name you don't even know? I guess if your god doesn't care if you know him or not, he won't care if you know his name. The God of the Bible wants us to know him and that includes the fact that he has a name, which is in the Bible more times than “God” “lord” “Almighty” “creator” etc combined!Kejonn, I'm wondering if you could tell us why you believe in zoroastrianism. How did you arrive at that? Is it because you have one set of beliefs and you feel that this matches up best with what you believe? And if so, is that an indication that it is true?
Quote God gave us all a conscience. The plan is a simple one overall: seek good thoughts, good words, and good deeds. Deep down, most are capable of this. We don't kneed a book to figure this out. –kejonn
I believe that Jehovah lovingly does not expect us to guess how to please him.
In the Bible he gives clear moral direction, saying in effect: “This is the way. Walk in it, you people.” (Isaiah 30:21)
When we follow his direction, we avoid the frustration and uncertainty of sifting through the conflicting moral opinions of humans. And we can be confident that God’s guidance is always for our good, ‘teaching us to benefit ourselves.’—Isaiah 48:17, 18.Yes, our consciences are helpful. But some can destroy their own consciences. For some people, “their consciences are defiled.” (titus 1:15; compare 1 tim 4:1,2)
So what they consider to be “good” isn't really what God consideres to be good.
People's ideas change. One thing may be wrong and be condemned in the bible, but people get used to that wrong thing, so suddenly it's ok, and “good.” But really, they've trained their consciences to accept what is wrong. Again, it's the frog in the hot water illustration.This is why we need more than our consciences.
Quote (david @ April 12 2008,19:12) Quote To think that God would bring His plan to fruition through a carpenter's son in the Middle East, when there is no proof the son ever existed outside of writings by anonymous authors seems like a very short-sighted and weak plan. Certainly not the plan of an almighty God. –kejonn
Yes, Kejonn, that's right. Instead, God's plan was to hide himself where no one would ever find him. He doesn't care if people know him, or if he exists, and something like 99% of the planet haven't even heard of his name. Yes, that makes far more sense.
Have you seen God then? What does He look like?Quote Calanders date from Jesus' birth. For someone that never existed, he's had more influence on mankind than anyone else. Can you imagine how great an influence he had if he actually existed! Wow. Wow, the old calendar thing. Have you ever thought that it was the power of the Christian movement versus the actual reality of Christ? Honoring the figure of Jesus does not mean we have proof of his existence as stated in the bible.
What is sad is that neither Matthew or Luke have Jesus being born in either 1 BC or 1 AD. So why the separation?
You are building a man of straw.
Quote To call God's plan short sighted in light of what you believe, is just bizarre. Quote Christianity . . .have done their best to impede scientific progress. Both have had many followers with much blood on their hands. –kejonn
Yes, just as Jesus and his followers predicted. Your point?
One exampe of a hundred:
“2 PETER 2:1-3 (c. 64 C.E.)
“However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among you. These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects . . . .Furthermore, many will follow their acts of loose conduct, and ON ACCOUNT OF THESE THINGS THE WAY OF THE TRUTH [CHRISTIANITY] WILL BE SPOKEN OF ABUSIVELY. Also, with covetousness they will exploit you with counterfeit words.”It is just as fortold. As well, the many “sects” that formed, just as fortold:
Historian Will Durant points out:
“Celsus [second-century opponent of Christianity] himself had sarcastically observed that Christians were ‘split up into ever so many factions, each individual desiring to have his own party.’ About 187 [C.E.] Irenaeus listed twenty varieties of Christianity; about 384 [C.E.] Epiphanius counted eighty.”—The Story of Civilization: Part III—Caesar and Christ.)The bloodshed and twisted teachings by the majority of “Christians” are actually proof that Jesus and his followers were correct. They even said that some would “forbid to marry” and “abstain” from certain foods. Remind you of the Catholic priests and not eating meat on fridays?
1 TIMOTHY 4:1-3 (c. 61-64 C.E.)
“However, the inspired utterance says definitely that in later periods of time some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired utterances and teachings of demons, by the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, marked in their conscience as with a branding iron; forbidding to marry, commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be partaken of with thanksgiving by those who have faith and accurately know the truth.”Anyway, this is false Christianity and we all agree it is bad.
So Jesus and his followers knew about it, and proceeded to do nothing about it? How lame and selfish of them.Quote But, when I said that I was responding to this: Quote God gave us all a conscience. The plan is a simple one overall: seek good thoughts, good words, and good deeds. Deep down, most are capable of this. We don't kneed a book to figure this out. Kejonn, the idea that God just wants us to “be good” is actually part of the apostasized Christianity I mentioned. God wants us also to avoid bad. He wants us to “meet together,” to “preach the good news,” etc. You do need a book to learn his name. You do need a book to find out specifics of what he does in fact require. The watered down “be good” of Christianity is apostate Christianity.
So what would you have us all do David? Follow JW ways?Quote Quote Why does a name matter? Will giving a name to God make anything better or worse?
Kejonn, the first thing someone learns about someone else is their name. Are you close to anyone who's name you don't even know? I guess if your god doesn't care if you know him or not, he won't care if you know his name. The God of the Bible wants us to know him and that includes the fact that he has a name, which is in the Bible more times than “God” “lord” “Almighty” “creator” etc combined!
What is his name then David? Jehovah? Sorry, but you would be wrong.Quote Have you seen God then? What does He look like? –kejonn.
I haven't “seen” you, but I'm quite confident you exist. Why? Because you've communicated with me. Similarly, The God of the most widely distributed book on the planet has done so.
Your god, not in the least. I'm still not sure if it's named mazda or zoroaster. I'm still waiting for you to tell me something about it.
Quote Wow, the old calendar thing. Have you ever thought that it was the power of the Christian movement versus the actual reality of Christ?
My point was made. You act as if no one has heard of Jesus, when he is the most recognized personage in history. Your god, less than 1% of people have heard of, probably quite a bit less. This is what I meant when I asked if your god was shy.
Question: Does your god want anything from or of us? Did he create us and that's it? No attempt to help us? No attempt to communicate? I actually have no idea about zoraoster, but you're not telling us a lot, are you? Maybe there is nothing to tell….
“In western countries also, the people are not quite familiar with Zoroastrian philosophy. . . . it can be rightly said that Zoroastrian philosophy, which was the main religious belief system of ancient Iranians and for about several hundred years was the basis of the Iranian culture and their life style, NOW IS ALMOST FORGOTTEN.”
http://www.zoroaster.net/indexe.htmQuote What is sad is that neither Matthew or Luke have Jesus being born in either 1 BC or 1 AD. So why the separation?
They don't have a date at all. Obviously, we didn't use those dates back then. And just as obvious, those who set that pivitol point, missed by a few years.
But neither of those things were my point. No one has heard of this zoroaster. Obviously, that is not true of the God of the Bible.Quote So Jesus and his followers knew about it, and proceeded to do nothing about it? How lame and selfish of them.
I don't remember saying that. They repeatedly told people to be on guard, to expect it, etc. People have free will. They can believe anything they like, even in gods that don't make themselves known. What would you have them do? Shoot the people that didn't agree? No.
As a side note, zoroastrianism had a similar thing happen.
“This persecution continued up until Reza Shah Pahlavie, the Great came to power and ended such a cruelty to zoroastrians and also other religious minorities. As a result of the hardships Zoroastrians went through, the Zarathustra’s philosophy was transferred heart to heart and THIS CAUSED MANY UNDUE ALTERATIONS THAT WERE NOT IN LINE WITH TRUE Zoroastrianism. . . .Recent philological studies show that many of the contents of Avesta are not genuine and have been added to it in later periods. Obviously, the men of knowledge and those who are familiar with Gatha and the true philosophy of zoroastrianism, know that many of such baseless principles such as Vandidad, do not belong to zoroastrianism “–http://www.zoroaster.net/indexe.htmI guess the difference is, Jesus warned his followers in advance of this. Not so with zoroaster.
Quote So what would you have us all do David?
What I wouldn't have you do is search religions for something that YOU like, and that suits YOU. I wouldn't have you find something that is politically correct and well liked, something that “even stu” can agree with, for the sake of agreement.
What I would have you do is find truth, no matter what it looks like.
“…as long as I shall be able and be strong, so long shall I look in quest of truth.–Y 28:4david
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