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Hi KJ,
Why have you become a salesman for false religion when the true God is still alive and active among us?I have reported your post to Heaven. I don't expect a reply but be aware that your level of personal attacks are not going without notice. I am merely presenting information. If you don't care for the information, speak on it, not me. That you constantly try to belittle me speaks volumes of your faith AND the lack of defense against such material.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 25 2008,16:09) Hi KJ,
Why have you become a salesman for false religion when the true God is still alive and active among us?
Who says it is false? It has much of the same beliefs that Christianity and late Judaism has. Does that bother you? Does it scare you to think that some other “false” religion might have been at the roots of your own religion?Excerpts from The Light of the Sacred Fire
- Western religions owe a great deal to Zoroastrianism. It was under the Achaemenid King Cyrus, who liberated the Jews from their exile in Babylon, that Judaism first encountered Zoroastrianism in the sixth century BCE. This contact, which continued for hundreds of years in the mixed societies of the Near East, was to be a source of inspiration for both the Jewish and the Christian worlds.
Even the best scholarship cannot pinpoint just how or when Zoroastrian influences entered Jewish religious thought. But most scholars admit that the influence is definitely there. The Zoroastrian vision of the seven Bounteous Immortals has been suggested as the source for the seven Jewish archangels. The Zoroastrian moralization of the afterlife also left its influence on Jewish belief. Before the exile, Hebrew writings spoke only of “Sheol,” a Hades-like afterlife without reward or punishment. It was only in post-exilic writings (dating after 538 BCE) that concepts of heaven and hell appeared in Jewish thought. There are echoes of the Two Spirits and moral dualism in the Judeo-Christian idea of Satan, and both in the Gathas and in Christian doctrine, the Evil Spirit is not created evil, but chooses to be so.
Zoroastrianism also lent to the West its ideas of eschatology and messianism. The Gathas refer to an end of time and a final judgement. In Zarathushtra's conception, the world evolves, through the collective good acts of humanity, towards “renovation,” an eschatological goal of cosmic regeneration and bliss. The final judgement is one of purification rather than punishment, even of the “damned.” The leaders of this collective effort are known as “Saoshyants,” or “saviors.”
In later Zoroastrianism this concept is mythologized, and the savior figures are identified as specific cultural heroes who will be born in the fullness of time. This idea may have influenced Jewish messianism. In the Old Testament, the word “Messiah” described an ideal political ruler – a concept which later took on a spiritual and eschatological quality. It is perhaps in this context that the legend of the Three Magi should be explained. The Magi of the New Testament story (see Matthew 2:1-12) may indeed have been Hellenized Zoroastrians practicing in a mixed religious tradition that included astrology and magic derived from Mesopotamia. These legendary Magi (they are most probably characters in a story, not real people) may have been following the Zoroastrian concept of the expected “Saoshyant” when they followed their star to Bethlehem.
Zoroastrianism also was a strong influence in the more esoteric sects of Judaism, such as the Essenes. There are passages in the Essene documents found in the “Dead Sea Scrolls” which seem to be directly borrowed from Zoroastrian sources. These texts describe the spirit of truth in conflict with the spirit of error, and a battle of the “sons of light” against the “sons of darkness.” This scenario later became part of Christian mythology and cosmic battles of this type appear in many apocalyptic texts such as the Book of Revelation.
Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 26 2008,08:51) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 25 2008,13:38) Hi cato,
No true doctrine.
Many humanistic religions are of this nature.
True doctrine is drawn directly from the teachings of God in the bible.
Well, you can either have a humanistic religion (like you think Zoroastrianism is) or you can have a religion that reduces God to human level (like Christianity is).Not much difference in the end.
Hi KJ,
Christianity does not reduce God to the level of puny man.
Jesus Christ is the Son of God.I find it interesting that the only one called “savior” in the bible prior to the Babylonian exile is God. In fact, in only one place in the OT is another besides God called “savior”:
- Isa 19:20 It will become a sign and a witness to the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt; for they will cry to the LORD because of oppressors, and He will send them a Savior and a Champion, and He will deliver them.
Yet we see in the NT that Jesus is often called “savior” which is obviously foreign to Jewish thought because God is seen as the only savior.
But there is the “Saoshyant” in Zoroastrianism. In the Gathas, a Saoshyant is not a “savior” of the type that Jesus is seen to be, but more of a benefactor, or someone who extraordinarily helps to promote good thoughts, words, and deeds. Zarathushtra was seen as the first Saoshyant. However, the word is often translated as “savior” and is applied to a human being.
Latter Zoroastrianism developed the concept of the Saoshyant being a “savior”, one who would deliver. Inf fact, there were to be three of them, all born of virgins.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 25 2008,16:45) Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 26 2008,08:51) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 25 2008,13:38) Hi cato,
No true doctrine.
Many humanistic religions are of this nature.
True doctrine is drawn directly from the teachings of God in the bible.
Well, you can either have a humanistic religion (like you think Zoroastrianism is) or you can have a religion that reduces God to human level (like Christianity is).Not much difference in the end.
Hi KJ,
Christianity does not reduce God to the level of puny man.
Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
I don't think that is accurate. Christianity is the religion of the NT. While you may not see Jesus as God, the majority of Christians do. Thus, Christianity, as a whole, does indeed teach that a human being is God.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 25 2008,16:45) Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 26 2008,08:51) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 25 2008,13:38) Hi cato,
No true doctrine.
Many humanistic religions are of this nature.
True doctrine is drawn directly from the teachings of God in the bible.
Well, you can either have a humanistic religion (like you think Zoroastrianism is) or you can have a religion that reduces God to human level (like Christianity is).Not much difference in the end.
Hi KJ,
Christianity does not reduce God to the level of puny man.
Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
From Americans Draw Theological Beliefs From Diverse Points of View- There are some fundamental Christian precepts that most Americans have held on to. The new survey reveals that more than three-quarters of all adults adopt each of three classic Christian beliefs. For instance, the concept of the trinity – “God is one being in three separate and equal persons – God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit” – is deemed to be a reality by 79% of adults. Women are considerably more likely than men to accept the Trinity as real, by an 85% to 72% margin, but few members of either gender doubt its existence.
Hi KJ,
Should the majority view be taken as correct?
It perhaps should in human religion
Democracy gone mad?truth is truth despite it's unpopularity
That is what is of God.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 25 2008,17:14) Hi KJ,
Should the majority view be taken as correct?
It perhaps should in human religion
Democracy gone mad?truth is truth despite it's unpopularity
That is what is of God.
But the statement was that Christianity taught that God is reduced to human level. I did not say the bible did, I said Christianity. Thus, seeing as the majority of Christians believe in the Trinity, and there are more who believe in Jesus being God in another fashion (Oneness, etc) then overall Christianity does teach that Jesus is God.Who exactly is the whore Nick? Belief in the divinity of Jesus is not exclusive to Catholicism.
I find it rather ironic that you base your beliefs on the canon of scripture that was approved by men who were very involved in the “whore”. So the “whore” was responsible for your beliefs today.
Excerpts from Bible Influences
- During the Exile, Jews had to change not only how they worshipped, since they no longer had their temple or the animal sacrifices which had been at the center of their faith, but also how they thought about God. The Jewish concept of God as their tribal protector, who would save them from being conquered or exiled, had to undergo revision. Both factors are present, inspiring the changes in post-exilic Judaism: not only the Jews thinking new thoughts about God and humanity, but also contact with the Zoroastrian religion of the Persian Empire. Most of Zoroastrianism, known and practiced among the people, existed in oral tradition: through word of mouth, not by the study of written scriptures. This oral tradition included stories about God, the Creation, the ethical and cosmic conflict of Good and Evil, the divine Judgment and the end of the world. The tradition would also include the well-known Zoroastrian symbolism of fire, light and darkness, as well as stories and prayers about the yazatas or intermediate spiritual beings and the Prophet Zarathushtra. These are all elements of what might be called classic Zoroastrianism. This is how the Jews encountered Zoroastrianism – in private dialogues and political and civic experience, rather than in formal religious studies. And as the Jewish religion was re-made after the catastrophe of the Exile, these Zoroastrian teachings began to filter into the Jewish religious culture.
The monotheists of Zarathushtra were able to incorporate the veneration of subordinate divinities into their worship, as long as these subordinates were recognized as creations of the One God and not gods in their own right. The Jews would recognize angels as semi-divine intermediaries, but would not go so far as the Zoroastrians in honoring those intermediaries with hymns of praise such as the Yashts. One of the most important differences between Jewish monotheism and Zoroastrian monotheism is that Jews recognize the one God as the source of both good and evil, light and darkness, while Zoroastrians, during all the phases of their long theological history, think of God only as the source of Good, with Evil as a separate principle. There is a famous passage in Second Isaiah, composed during or after the Exile, which is sometimes cited as a Jewish rebuke to the Zoroastrian idea of a dualistic God: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7) This passage, which is a major source for Jewish speculation on the source of good and evil in the world, denies the Zoroastrian idea of a God who is the source only of good and favorable things.
There are other developments, however, in the Jewish faith which are much more easily connected with Zoroastrian ideas. One of the most visible changes after the Exile is the emergence of a Jewish idea of Heaven, Hell, and the afterlife. Before the Exile and Persian contact, Jews believed that the souls of the dead went to a dull, Hades-like place called Sheol. After the Exile, the idea of a moralized afterlife, with heavenly rewards for the good and hellish punishment for the evil, appear in Judaism. One of the words for heaven in the Bible is Paradise – and this word, from the ancient Iranian words pairi-daeza, enclosed garden, is one of the very few definite Persian loan-words in the Bible.
This moral view of the afterlife is characteristic of Zarathushtrian teaching from its very beginning in the Gathas. It is also thought that the Jewish idea of a coming Savior, or Messiah, was influenced by Zoroastrian messianism. Already in the book of Second Isaiah, possibly written during the Exile, the prophet speaks of a Savior who would come to rescue the Jewish people: a benefactor, anointed by God to fulfill his role. In many verses, he identifies Cyrus the liberator as that Messiah. The growth of messianic ideas is parallel in both Jewish and Iranian thought. But as both Persian and Jewish savior-mythology evolve, the Saoshyant – and the Messiah – take on a special, individual, almost divine quality which will be very important in the birth of Christianity.
The Iranian influence continues to be evident in Jewish writings from what is known as the inter-testamental period, that is, after the last canonical book of the Old Testament and before Christianity and the composition of the New Testament. This covers an era between about 150 BCE to 100 CE. These Jewish inter-testamental writings describe a complicated hierarchy of angelic beings, in an echo of the Zoroastrian concept of the holy court of the Yazatas. The Jewish idea of seven chief archangels probably has its inspiration in the seven Amesha Spentas, the highest guardian spirits of Zoroastrian belief. Jews had their own ideas of angels long before they encountered Zoroastrianism; angels were nameless, impersonal representatives of God's message and action. But after the Exile, Jewish angels gain names and personalities, and also are spoken of as guardians of various natural phenomena, just like the Zoroastrian yazatas. The Jewish and Christian idea of a personal guardian angel may also have been inspired by the Zoroastrian figure of the fravashi, the divine guardian-spirit of each individual human being.
Zoroastrian influence on Judaism is also evident in the evolution of Jewish ideas about good, evil, and the End of Time. The original statement of the famous Zoroastrian dualism of good and evil is found in the Gathas, where Zarathushtra describes the two conflicting principles of good and evil in what might be called psychological, or ethical terms. Human beings are faced with the existence of good and evil within themselves – he describes these principles as the beneficent and the hostile spirits – and everyone must make the choice for Good in order to follow God's will. However, by the Hellenistic era, Zoroastrianism had already developed its doctrine of cosmic dualism – the idea that the entire Universe is a battlefield between the One Good God, Ahura Mazda, and the separate Spirit of Evil, Ahriman.
But despite these Jewish reflections of ethical dualism, it is the doctrine of cosmic dualism, with its mythological and symbolic content, that most influenced the later Jewish thinkers. Even before the Exile, under the threat of destruction by foreign empires, Jewish prophets were moving toward a vision of not only political, but cosmic war and catastrophe. This type of prophecy, after the Exile, evolved into apocalyptic, which comes from the Greek word apokalypsis which means revelation. This is a form of religious storytelling, poetry, and preaching which uses a high level of mythological symbolism to describe not only a cosmic battle between the forces of Good and Evil, but also a schedule for the coming End of Time. It is very evident to see that even though the original text of the Gathas was most probably inaccessible to the Jews, the teachings of Zarathushtra were part of the religious culture of the Persian people among whom many Jews lived. Zoroastrianism, from the beginning, has taught that time and God's creation has a beginning, a middle, and an end-time in which all souls will be judged. This is the basis of what the Christian belief is based upon and it is easy to draw the conclusion that Zoroastrianism had a great influence on Christianity and on the Bible.
Excerpts from Zoroastrianism and Judaism
- The points of resemblance between Zoroastrianism and Judaism, and hence also between the former and Christianity, are many and striking. Ahuramazda, the supreme lord of Iran, omniscient, omnipresent, and eternal, endowed with creative power, which he exercises especially through the medium of his Spenta Mainyu (“Holy Spirit”), and governing the universe through the instrumentality of angels and archangels, presents the nearest parallel to Yhwh that is found in antiquity. But Ormuzd's power is hampered by his adversary, Ahriman, whose dominion, however, like Satan's, shall be destroyed at the end of the world. Zoroastrianism and Judaism present a number of resemblances to each other in their general systems of angelology and demonology, points of similarity which have been especially emphasized by the Jewish rabbinical scholars Schorr and Kohut and the Christian theologian Stave.
There are striking parallels between the two faiths and Christianity in their eschatological teachings—the doctrines of a regenerate world, a perfect kingdom, the coming of a Messiah, the resurrection of the dead, and the life everlasting. Both Zoroastrianism and Judaism are revealed religions: in the one Ahuramazda imparts his revelation and pronounces his commandments to Zarathustra on “the Mountain of the Two Holy Communing Ones”; in the other Yhwh holds a similar communion with Moses on Sinai. The Magian laws of purification, moreover, more particularly those practised to remove pollution incurred through contact with dead or unclean matter, are given in the Avestan Vendïdad quite as elaborately as in the Levitical code, with which the Zoroastrian book has been compared.
The two religions agree in certain respects with regard to their cosmological ideas. The six days of Creation in Genesis find a parallel in the six periods of Creation described in the Zoroastrian scriptures. Mankind, according to each religion, is descended from a single couple, and Mashya (man) and Mashyana are the Iranian Adam (man) and Eve. In the Bible a deluge destroys all people except a single righteous individual and his family; in the Avesta a winter depopulates the earth except in the Vara (“enclosure”) of the blessed Yima. In each case the earth is peopled anew with the best two of every kind, and is afterward divided into three realms. The three sons of Yima's successor Thraetaona, named Erij (Avesta, “Airya”), Selm (Avesta, “Sairima”), and Tur (Avesta, “Tura”), are the inheritors in the Persian account; Shem, Ham, and Japheth, in the Semiticstory. Likenesses in minor matters, in certain details of ceremony and ritual, ideas of uncleanness, and the like, are to be noted, as well as parallels between Zoroaster and Moses as sacred lawgivers; and many of these resemblances are treated in the works referred to at the end of this article.
It is difficult to account for these analogies. It is known, of course, as a historic fact that the Jews and the Persians came in contact with each other at an early period in antiquity and remained in more or less close relation throughout their history. Most scholars, Jewish as well as non-Jewish, are of the opinion that Judaism was strongly influenced by Zoroastrianism in views relating to angelology and demonology, and probably also in the doctrine of the resurrection, as well as in eschatological ideas in general, and also that the monotheistic conception of Yhwh may have been quickened and strengthened by being opposed to the dualism or quasi-monotheism of the Persians.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 26 2008,10:14) Hi KJ,
Should the majority view be taken as correct?
It perhaps should in human religion
Democracy gone mad?truth is truth despite it's unpopularity
That is what is of God.
Ironically it is the reverse. We lock up people who claim they are Jesus because there are so few of them. People who think Jesus was able to walk on water and walk again after death are so numerous that for democratic reasons we don't lock them up, yet the saner man is he who claims he is Jesus for he obviously cannot walk on water!Stuart
Nick,
Why do you find the idea that Christianity was probably influenced by Zoroaster troubling? What does it take away from your beliefs? Do you think God only cared about Jews before Christ? Doesn't it answer questions of why the depiction of God is so different between OT and NT? KJ is not advocating Zoroastrianism he merely is pointing out in all probability, it did indeed influenced later Jewish and then Christian thought, what is misguided or wrong in that?
Indeed. Without the Persian influence, Christianity would not have the promise of an afterlife. The Hebrew religion before the exile certainly had no such hope. Nor would they have “satan” to blame things on
.More, from Early Christianity Backgrounds
- The religion of the Pharisees was the orthodox religion of the Jewish world at the time Christianity emerged; beneath this, however, their existed a living, dynamic popular religion that had many unique and unorthodox characteristics. We know much about this popular religion from the only organized and systematic form that Jewish popular religion took: Essene Judaism. We assume, however, that popular Judaism outside the Essene boundaries looked very similar.
The Essenes took many of their beliefs from Persian sources and popular superstition and merged them with orthodox Jewish tradition. From Persia they took apocalypticism, a dualistic world view, and a myth of an evil god in conflict with Yahweh; from popular superstitions they took a belief in the operations of angels and demons and a set of rituals and healing practices designed to ward off demons.
Essene and popular Judaism believed that the universe was divided into two competing forces, a force of good—Yahweh—and a force of evil, which was given various names. Human history and human life could be understood in terms of the conflict between these two forces. They also believed that the conflict would end in a final battle, after which the world would be destroyed, humanity would be judged, and the universe would be set right permanently.
These ideas were introduced into the Hebrew world view by the Persians and their religion, Zoroastrianism, and combined with indigenous Hebrew ideas such as the idea of Yahweh as judge of humanity and the old Israelite idea of the last Day of the Lord. Zoroastrianism asserted that the the universe was created by a supreme and benficent god, Ahura Mazda, but was marred by the conflict engendered by an equally powerful evil god, Angra Mainyu or Ahriman. Human history and human life was the stage on which this conflict was played out. At the end of time, the world would be destroyed and human beings would be judged through fire. Then would follow a final conflict between the forces of Ahura Mazda and Angra Mainyu; the latter would be defeated and the history of the universe would come to an end.
All of this was taken up in popular Judaism; these views, however, were considered heretical in orthodox Judaism. In addition, Zoroastrianism divided history into epochs, each lasting 3000 years. Early Christianity would derive its sense of the divisions of history from the Zoroastrian epochs.
In popular Judaism, people believed that many if not most phenomena were caused by angels, servants of God, and demons. “Demon,” actually, is a bad translation—in Greek the word means a “good spirit.” The Hebrew words most commonly used were Mazzikin and Shedim, both of which mean “destroyers.”
The concept of angels were derived from polytheistic religion; since they all began as gods and closely resembled gods, orthodox Judaism did not encourage angelogy though angels were an officially sanctioned theological belief. From an orthodox view, however, belief in angels detracted from the supremacy of Yahweh, who intervened directly in human life and history, and from the central role of humanity and human obedience to Yahweh. The importance of angels in Jewish thought and practice accelerated dramatically after the Exile as the historical situation looked increasingly desparate and began to appear in Jewish writings frequently. It was believed that angels served both a protective and intercessory role. It was angels, for instance, that brought one's prayers to Yahweh. The essential character of angels, though, was that they were supernatural beings that humans needed to deal with to influence phenomena; all sorts of shamanistic and ritualistic practices arose around this belief.
The Mazzikin and Shedim, however, were even more deeply ingrained in popular Jewish thought and practice. Almost all untoward events, including sickness and accidents, were ascribed to their influence. They lived in dirty and unclean places and literally surrounded by the thousands every individual in their daily lives and so constituted an ever-present threat. In daily life, this produced a special set of ritualistic and magical practices designed to ward off demons or cast them off when they successfully made someone sick, insane, or whatever. Daily life involved the use of prophylactics, such as charms, and prophylactic practices, such as not praying near dirt, to ward of demons. Daily life also included shamanic healing that, by casting demons out of a sick animal or human, also cast out their baleful influence.
The biographies of Jesus of Nazareth plant him firmly in this shamanic tradition and some scholars believe that this was his essential historical identity. The biogaphers of Jesus of Nazareth would fold this shamanism into a larger structure of understanding the Christ event history which, for them, was entirely comprised of the death and resurrection of Christ the god.
Excerpts from THE THREE MAGI, ZOROASTRIAN PILGRIMS
- The Greek word for “wise men” is magoi which is derived from the Persian word for priest; the Avestan origin is obscure, perhaps coming from maga translated by Dr. Ali Jafarey as “magnanimity, generosity, or great fellowship”. As is stated in the “Jerome Biblical Commentary,” by the time of Jesus the word magos in Greek no longer meant only Persian priest, but could mean astrologer or occultist – or charlatan. Here it is not used in a negative sense.
Even though there was no specification of Persian origin for the Magi of the Gospel, in the early centuries of Christian story and art they were assumed to be Persian. In paintings and mosaics they were dressed in Persian garb; one example is in the 6th century Basilica of San Vitale in Ravenna. Another example, cited by German writer Manfred Barthel, is the Church of the Nativity in Jerusalem, which was spared from destruction by Persian invaders in A.D. 614 because the church had a fresco of the Three Kings dressed in Persian dress. A sixth-century Syrian source, cited by Zoroastrian scholar Dariush Jahanian, names the Three Kings as “Hormizdah king of Persia, Yazdegerd King of Saba, and Perozadh King of Sheba,” but those names are all Persian, not Sabaean or Arab.
The Magi who were featured in the story may not have been completely Zoroastrian. They may have been practicing a syncretistic (mixed) tradition that included not only Zoroastrian and Mesopotamian elements but practices and beliefs from various pagan traditions. What, then, were they searching for? One idea held by many scholars is that they were searching for the Saoshyant or “Savior,” who was an ideal king-figure hoped for by both Persians and Jews. Jahanian, in a short article about the Christmas Star (FEZANA Journal, Winter '94) tries to disprove this by stating that this concept is not messianic in the Gathas, but just describes very good people who are of benefit to society. But by the time of Jesus' birth, the Gathas were far from being the most influential text in the Zoroastrian world, and their meaning had long since been re- interpreted.
There are other factors in the Magi story which would be familiar to Zoroastrians, though it is doubtful that these were recognized by the Gospel-writers. The three kings, to a Zoroastrian, symbolize the Threefold Path of “Good Thoughts, Good Words, and Good Deeds.” Many other Zoroastrian symbols also follow this threefold symbolism, such as the three steps to the ancient Achaemenian fire-altar or the three windings of the kushti cincture. Christians, though, interpret the three kings as Trinitarian, one to adore each Person of the Trinity. The frankincense which the Jewish/Christian authors interpreted as honor to Christ's divinity is also part of Zoroastrian worship: known as loban, frankincense is sprinkled on the embers of the Sacred Fire as a fragrant homage to the bright symbol of Ahura Mazda.
Zoroastrians are rather proud of their presence in Christian story, even if their Magi adore a Christian God-incarnation. Unlike Christians and Jews, Zoroastrians have almost always been tolerant of other religions (except for the evil-doing daeva-worshippers in the Gathas, and during the Sassanian Persian Empire). As Dr. Jahanian says in his article, “So, it appears, the Zoroastrians were the first to recognize the birth of Jesus Christ.” This sacred story thus gathers together elements from three great monotheistic religious traditions.
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