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Hi mandy,
If you cannot see something the lack may not be in the information or it's presentation.You may have missed it.
Or you may be blind.
Best to go back to God and seek healing for that blindness as many did.
Those who thought they could see were made blind.Isaiah 56:10
His watchmen are blind: they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber.Matthew 15:14
Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditchJohn 9:39
And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.John 12:40
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
Romans 11:25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Romans 11:7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
2 Corinthians 3:14
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
2 Corinthians 4:4In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
We are all blind.
It is only a matter of degree.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 27 2008,18:58) Hi mandy,
If you cannot see something the lack may not be in the information or it's presentation.You may have missed it.
Or you may be blind.
Best to go back to God and seek healing for that blindness as many did.
Those who thought they could see were made blind.Isaiah 56:10
His watchmen are blind: they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber.Matthew 15:14
Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditchJohn 9:39
And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.John 12:40
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
Romans 11:25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Romans 11:7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
2 Corinthians 3:14
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
2 Corinthians 4:4In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
We are all blind.
It is only a matter of degree.
Mandy is right, isn't she. The second coming is an invention. I think the first one was invented too.Stuart
But Nick, I press in and ask………..are you blind?
You must be if you are not able to point me in the right direction? Maybe the blind really do lead the blind here?
My question is clear. My question is simple.
You have no answer.
Yes, Stu, the “second coming” in an invention made to cover-up the fact that Jesus did not fit the description in the OT of the promised Messiah. This “second coming” was passed on by oral tradition because it cannot be found in the bible anywhere. No believer here will show me where it can be found in the scriptures, however I am accused of being blind for not seeing it. I give up. Good grief!
Hi Mandy,
If you agree with the Pharisees that Jesus is not the Messiah are you going to join them in picking up stones to kill him?
If you decide he lied and was not the true Messiah will you also begin to teach against him?Whom would that please?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 27 2008,01:02) Hi Mandy,
You cannot see it at this stage of your searching.
You must see it all at once which is a bit sad
Your knowledge means little in the long term.
And based on this answer, you don't have an answer. Quit beating around the bush and just tell her “I don't know, I just believe”.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 27 2008,02:42) Hi Mandy,
If you agree with the Pharisees that Jesus is not the Messiah are you going to join them in picking up stones to kill him?
If you decide he lied and was not the true Messiah will you also begin to teach against him?Whom would that please?
Nick,At the risk of further taking this thread more off topic (which you seem to like when the subject is not one you like), Jesus likely thought he was indeed the Jewish Messiah. Not the spiritual one that is not found in the OT, but the conquering one who would deliver his people. He quoted from Isa 61 in a way to apply it to himself, and Isa 61-62 is all about the conquering Messiah. The last clue about Jesus believing he was that Messiah was this exclamation from the cross:
- Mar 15:34 At the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, “ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?” which is translated, “MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?”
If Jesus truly knew he was going to die well before hand and then be resurrected, he would not ask why God was forsaking him. But if he thought he was the Jewish Messiah, his death brought that to an end because he did not accomplish what scripture said he would. Thus Jesus was in anguish, and felt God was forsaking him as the coming Messiah.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 27 2008,05:52) Hi KJ,
Fascinating reflections, echoes and shadows…. perhaps to some.
But we are not interested in being seduced by such illusions.
So before Jesus, God only concerned himself with Jews? A pre-Christian belief system that taught one benificient, almighty, unmanifest God, that stressed good thoughts, words and deeds and proclaimed an eventual new better world under that God where the dead would be brought back from darkness is illusion? This apparent “illusion” has much in common with Christianity and in some ways looks more like it then old Judaism, yet you dismiss it out of hand. You also say that “we” (an interesting appallation) are not interested in being seduced. What seduction is involved? No one is advocating Zoroastorianism, we merely point out that an older belief system had some remarkable parallels and may have had influence on early Chistianity. What is threatening about this?Cato,
You just don't understand Nick. To him, anything outside of the 66 books of the Holy Bible is untrue, everything found within IS true. Like God enjoying the smell of meat cooking on the altar. I think it was actually the priest who enjoyed the smell because he knew it was dinner time.
I also would not advocate what Zoroastrianism had become after Zarathushtra. It is indeed very similar to Christianity, so why swap one for the other? Christianity is much like Zoroastrianism in that those who came after its founder added to the original message. It is highly likely that those who came after Jesus added much to his original message as well, including putting words in his mouth that never came out of it in the first place. They did the same with Zarathushtra — later on legends and other sayings were added to his life story that were not true, things like miracles (hello?) and sayings not quite in line with what he wrote in his Gathas.
Quote (Mandy @ Feb. 27 2008,19:27) But Nick, I press in and ask………..are you blind? You must be if you are not able to point me in the right direction? Maybe the blind really do lead the blind here?
My question is clear. My question is simple.
You have no answer.
Yes, Stu, the “second coming” in an invention made to cover-up the fact that Jesus did not fit the description in the OT of the promised Messiah. This “second coming” was passed on by oral tradition because it cannot be found in the bible anywhere. No believer here will show me where it can be found in the scriptures, however I am accused of being blind for not seeing it. I give up. Good grief!
Mandy,
Forgive me for interposing myself for it is not a proper part of the subject thread and it is somewhat vain to interject myself but I sense you are a true seeker here and not merely one trying to constantly convince others of their rightousness. When the Christ opens your heart he doesn't ask us to close our minds. The heart is needed for things the mind can not comprehend or explain, to see things it cannot, not to blind it to things it can. In my view conflict comes from trying to view scripture as the immutable unalterable word of God, and when you see inconsistency, ambiguity or something that just seems oversimplified or even wrong you reach an impasse that is troubling, because they must be reconciled for if one part is wrong it threatens the whole. Yet if scripture, even if inspired divinely, is without doubt, humanly interpretated, copied, translated, edited and compiled? Well then flaws would arise and it does not threaten the whole, for we know by it's nature it is not perfect. God gave us minds to use and a heart to check it with. You know that Jesus exists and you know the love he wants you to express to God and to each of us as God's fellow creations. The fine details and contradictions thereof do not worry over, scripture is not infallible. Too many break Jesus' main commandment about love for your fellow man while arguing over details over what day was really the Sabbath or his exact nature, or the trinity, etc. You, really know inside what's important, don't sweat what by comparison is trivial. When some day we are called to account for our actions what do you think the Lord will really call us on? What would really shame our souls and what would merely be parochial or pedantic? From what I have read of your various posts, you are probably on a better track then most who post here. When we no longer have questions we are no longer thinking.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 27 2008,19:42) Hi Mandy,
If you agree with the Pharisees that Jesus is not the Messiah are you going to join them in picking up stones to kill him?
If you decide he lied and was not the true Messiah will you also begin to teach against him?Whom would that please?
Nick,
You know you have my respect as an older brother and believer. But I must tell you, you have no right to judge any other servant of God whether the be lost or found.You pride yourself in being a guide post, but I have found no clear direction given from you. Only clever sayings and judgements. I ask clear questions from this guide post and it twirls around and around like something in the Wizard of Oz.
You, sir, have no right to accuse me of anything. If I am in error about the second coming being a farse then show me my error, otherwise your words are just that – prideful spoutings with no real meaning or use for directing others.
I apologize for being so harsh, however I believe your judgements of me are the same.
Will you answer my two-point question now? Or would you rather give me more of the same? Give me something that is useful, Nick. A straight answer. Guide me, oh Guide Post!!
Question: Where is it written that the promised Messiah would come twice?
Begs the question: If it is not written, why do you believe it?
Hi Cato,
Thank you for reassurance. Your thoughtful post has given me a few things to chew on today – thank you!
The thing is, if the bible is so flawed (and it is), then how can we put our trust in Jesus? Clearly he does not match what God promised! And yet we believe he is the Messiah anyway – why? I want to believe it. I've believed it since I was a tiny girl.
Jesus loves me, this I know!
For the bible tells me so.
Little ones to him belong.
They are weak but he is strong.Oh, how I want to sing this again. But the bible is the one who is “telling me so” and now that I am an adult, I can see that it doesn't line up. If I want to please God, and he knows I do, then I am responsible for finding out if this is correct or not. I'm not going to blindly believe it because it feels good and it's what I've been taught since childhood. I was taught the Trinity since childhood too, but the majority here would not want me to hang on to that belief. So what makes this any different?
I think the difference is it makes people uncomfortable because they know they cannot prove it either. Nick looks at scripture and he sees the big hole that I'm staring at. He just won't admit it because then he will be forced to admit to himself that the hole exists and that he is merely believing for the sake of believing. A lot of folks believe for the sake of believing. It gets them memberships at mega-churches and instant fellowship, it gives them privileged groups with editing rights!
What happened to “prove all things…”?
Thanks, Cato. I'm glad that you are here.
Love,
MandyNick,
Question: Where is it written that the promised Messiah would come twice?
Begs the question: If it is not written, why do you believe it?
Kejonn,
Sorry for misusing your thread here. I believe our conversation is over anyway. Nick will not guide me nor will he give me an answer for what he believes. He will only try to instill fear, accuse me of throwing a fit, and finally cast me aside as an antichrist.
Nice.
Quote (Mandy @ Feb. 27 2008,11:40) Kejonn, Sorry for misusing your thread here. I believe our conversation is over anyway. Nick will not guide me nor will he give me an answer for what he believes. He will only try to instill fear, accuse me of throwing a fit, and finally cast me aside as an antichrist.
Nice.
Not my thread, Cato started it. Besides, all I was doing was providing information. Information which Nick dislikes, so as usual he tries to invade the thread and take it offtopic.Again, to turn this thread back around, its important to realize that the form of Zoroastrianism that potentially influenced Judaism to a small extent and Christianity to a much larger extent, was post-Gathas. There is very little found within the Gathas to lead to any of the present Christian theology about afterlife, hell, heaven, demons, Satan, etc. Special pleading would be necessary to make it so. Rather, the Gathas is a small compilation of Zarathushtra's reflections about God. It has not set of rules or rituals, doesn't tell you you are a fallen creature, etc. but is a work of encouragement towards working along side of God to improve the world through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds. Zarathushtra believed that God gave us all the ability to seek these things through our conscience. I think there is much validity to this because we know that Christians do not have a monopoly on moral living.
Another beautiful part (IMHO) about the Gathas is there is no idea of one people being any better in God's eyes than the other. It is written to all of humanity, man or woman, black or white or Jewish, young or old. There certainly is found no idea that one must believe a certain way to gain divine favor. To carry out anything because you think you will reap some benefit (or avoid some punishment) is a selfish act. But to seek to carry out good thoughts, good words and good deeds to improve life of others and yourself is really not selfish at all. The reward is in the action, not the just the results.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 28 2008,04:50) Hi Mandy,
I have never claimed to know very much so keep searching.
No, in your 22,000+ posts you have claimed to know quite a lot. You have even claimed to be a guiding post or a directional post of some kind. In other words, you see yourself as someone who points people in the right direction. I guess in order to point folks in the right direction, you would need to know a thing or two.At times you are very passive/aggressive. When you are pressed and you have no answer all of a sudden you don't claim to “know very much”. While other times you feel empowered enough by your wisdom to tag antichrists, and tell people they are hopeless without the truth that you posses.
It's okay Nick, I've come to realize that even you have your limits in what you can take. Perhaps delving into certain areas are too much? But please don't squelch other's from searching.
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