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Quote Huh? As you know it is? Why is what you know any more valid than what Joe Blow knows? Rigid fundamentalism has resulted in many deaths. Should that be overlooked?
–kejonn
Apparently not, and yet, the gathas say to “let each person choose his creed.”
Perhaps the gathas overlooked this or mazda wasn't very far sighted.Quote (david @ April 15 2008,19:47) Quote Huh? As you know it is? Why is what you know any more valid than what Joe Blow knows? Rigid fundamentalism has resulted in many deaths. Should that be overlooked?
–kejonn
Apparently not, and yet, the gathas say to “let each person choose his creed.”
Perhaps the gathas overlooked this or mazda wasn't very far sighted.
Not really. Zarathushtra (“Z”) never claimed to be speaking the exact words of God. That's the biggest difference between the bible and the Gathas. Z knew his limitations, and had many questions. He admitted that he was human, and like the rest of us, could only speak to what he was lead to speak. He never claimed his words were the unadulterated words of the Almighty. Yet his words do not paint God in a negative fashion like the OT. There is no long list of dos and don'ts.But is choosing a creed the same as choosing a book?
Quote (david @ April 15 2008,19:47) Quote Huh? As you know it is? Why is what you know any more valid than what Joe Blow knows? Rigid fundamentalism has resulted in many deaths. Should that be overlooked?
–kejonn
Apparently not, and yet, the gathas say to “let each person choose his creed.”
Perhaps the gathas overlooked this or mazda wasn't very far sighted.
BTW, Cyrus and then Darius were Persian. Cyrus funded the building of the 2nd temple even though his faith was not in Yahweh. He allowed Israel to choose their own creed. Where would Christianity be today if Cyrus had never allowed them to do this?In the “Fallen Angels” thread (I cannot access it other than reading) Jodi said
Quote I have not had time to read through all 6 writings, so I don't know if I agree with everything Elwin R. Roach says, but his understanding and use of scripture on the lake of fire has furthered my belief of Universal Salvation. In a nut shell, I believe that all people will be resurrected and some will be resurrected into a firm hand of Yah, where intense discipline will burn away the satan left inside them until nothing but righteousness dwells.
I brought this up here because there really is no idea of a lake of fire being used for purification in the OT. However, this may be another instance of Zoroastrianism's influence on Christianity. From the Gathas of Zarathushtra, Song 16 (Yasna 51)
- 9. (Irani translation) With what understanding shalt Thou, O Mazda, give judgment to the two contending sides, Through Thy fire, a token of the final molten test? Let there be a sign of the separation: The destruction of the evil, from the blessedness of the righteous
9. (Azargoshasb translation) Both parties, O Mazda, i.e. the followers of Truth and false shall be put to test by Thy Blazing Divine Fire and this fiery test shall lay bare the fate of each group, indicating Thy Award. Completes frustration shall be the share of the false ones, but the followers of truth shall reap Thy blessings.
As far as I can tell, that's about it according to the Gathas. There is no destruction of souls, but there seems to be a destruction of evil.
However, as any other religion it seems, those who came after Zarathushtra added to his message. There is the idea of a river of molten metal will be used to destroy evil. From Zoroastrianism under the Achaemenids
- Zoroaster also believed in the justice of God. To address the injustices in society, he taught that man and woman can attain heaven by accepting his revelation and acting justly in accordance with the revelation. These actions are judged on the third day of the death of a person when his or her good thoughts, words and deeds are weighed in balance against the bad. If the good actions are in the majority, the soul passes on to heaven. If the deeds weigh more heavily on the evil side, the soul plunges into the underworld, a place of punishment and retribution. Later, when the struggle against evil on earth is finally over, there will be a resurrection and a last judgment will take place when molten metal will form a burning river and the reincarnated souls, along with those then living, will pass in the flesh through the metal. The good will be saved by divine intervention and the wicked will perish together with all evil.
Any of this ring a bell?
What Jodi is putting forth as her belief matches up fairly well with the idea of the Gathas. The Gathas also speak of “Chinvato-peretu” or the “bridge of sorting”. It is a metaphor for a state of being where those who have sought good thoughts, words, and deeds faithfully (but not inerringly!) pass on and those who have not must turn back to become more mature.
Again, in the fallen angels thread, Colter seems uptight that some are trying to “reason away” the existance of a literal singular “satan” figure. In the Hebrew faith, there is no such figure. Christianity got the influence of an opposer to Yahweh from latter Zoroastrianism, not the faith of the Israelites.
Zarathushtra spoke of a form of duality in his Gathas, but it was not a cosmic form like the latter Zoroastrianism developed. Three splinter groups of Israelites formed after the exile: Sadducees, Pharisees, and Essenes. The Sadducees reflected the pre-exilic form of Hebrew thought, the Pharisees post-exhilic, and the Essenes sunk their teeth into Persian thought the most. It is speculated that at least John the Baptist was of the Essene faith, and many place Jesus as influenced by the Essenes.
In latter Zoroastrianism, the concept of Angra Mainyu turned to an actual being that opposed Ahura Mazda, and represented “dark” and “evil”. In the Gathas, Angra Mainyu does not even exist. Thus, Zarathushtra not pre-exhilic Judaism knew no singular entity that opposed God. Even the Satan figure in Job is seen as a servant of Yahweh.
Quote the existance of a literal singular “satan” figure. In the Hebrew faith, there is no such figure [Satan figure]. –kejonn
and then:
Quote Even the Satan figure in Job . . . –kejonn
Wait, wasn't Job a book that formed part of the “Hebrew faith” which had no “satan figure”?
Question:
Would you consider this a true statement:
The Zend-Avesta, the sacred Zoroastrian writings, actually contain prayers to fire, to water, and to planets as well as to the light of the sun, moon, and stars. Fire is even referred to as the son of Ahura Mazda.
Quote (david @ April 17 2008,23:55) Quote the existance of a literal singular “satan” figure. In the Hebrew faith, there is no such figure [Satan figure]. –kejonn
and then:
Quote Even the Satan figure in Job . . . –kejonn
Wait, wasn't Job a book that formed part of the “Hebrew faith” which had no “satan figure”?
What this means is that there is no “satan” that matches the one in Christianity. Mention “satan” to a Jew and he will cringe because the NT portrays Jews as children of “satan” or those who directly oppose God.Quote (david @ April 18 2008,00:00) Question: Would you consider this a true statement:
The Zend-Avesta, the sacred Zoroastrian writings, actually contain prayers to fire, to water, and to planets as well as to the light of the sun, moon, and stars. Fire is even referred to as the son of Ahura Mazda.
Yes, but none of this is found in the Gathas. These others were picked up and added to Zarathushtra's original message.Quote (david @ April 18 2008,00:03) ANother question:
This dualism, does it have God and the Devil always existing together?
Yes, but again, it is something from latter Zoroastrianism. The only duality spoken of in the Gathas is the personal duality we all struggle with. Nothing about a good God and a bad one.Quote Yes, but again, it is something from latter Zoroastrianism. The only duality spoken of in the Gathas is the personal duality we all struggle with. Nothing about a good God and a bad one. Which one is right? Latter Zoroastrianism, or the early version? Or at least, which one do you believe in?
Quote (kejonn @ April 18 2008,22:13) Quote (david @ April 18 2008,00:00) Question: Would you consider this a true statement:
The Zend-Avesta, the sacred Zoroastrian writings, actually contain prayers to fire, to water, and to planets as well as to the light of the sun, moon, and stars. Fire is even referred to as the son of Ahura Mazda.
Yes, but none of this is found in the Gathas. These others were picked up and added to Zarathushtra's original message.
So, just so I understand this, do you ever pray to fire, or water or to the planets, or moon, or stars?These things that were added, later, do you consider them as important as the original messages?
Quote (david @ April 18 2008,18:51) Quote Yes, but again, it is something from latter Zoroastrianism. The only duality spoken of in the Gathas is the personal duality we all struggle with. Nothing about a good God and a bad one. Which one is right? Latter Zoroastrianism, or the early version? Or at least, which one do you believe in?
It has to be what I believe in. After all, isn't that what we all do with any form of religion or spirituality? Unless there is something that can be verified, there is no “truth” that we as humans will know with certainty.I believe in individual duality. That is, we can choose or fail to do good. Very few people actually choose to do evil things. I do not believe there is some spiritual being running around influencing people to be bad. That removes individual responsibility and is just another tactic to get you to run to a certain faith for protection. It is self-serving and faith should never be that.
Quote (david @ April 18 2008,18:54) Quote (kejonn @ April 18 2008,22:13) Quote (david @ April 18 2008,00:00) Question: Would you consider this a true statement:
The Zend-Avesta, the sacred Zoroastrian writings, actually contain prayers to fire, to water, and to planets as well as to the light of the sun, moon, and stars. Fire is even referred to as the son of Ahura Mazda.
Yes, but none of this is found in the Gathas. These others were picked up and added to Zarathushtra's original message.
So, just so I understand this, do you ever pray to fire, or water or to the planets, or moon, or stars?These things that were added, later, do you consider them as important as the original messages?
Haha, no. In fact, from what I understand, they were doing some of that in Persia before Zarathushtra came on the scene. He spoke out against such. Fire is a symbolism of God's purifying power in the Gathas, it is not to be prayed to. Neither are any elements.
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