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Kathi, as seekingtruth says, the word is Aion, which means for a time. I believe in punishment as well, just not eternal suffering, that is inhumane and God is love. And what the punishment is we dont know. I believe it is seperation form God…the Outer Darkness. All the talk of being burnt alive without dying is rubbish. I will find more to post here soon. For both you and bod.
bodhitharta,Nov. wrote:[/quote]
Quote whether you are tormented forever or completely anihilated neither is lovely Am I hearing you right ? Do you actually think that MAYBE 'hell' is being completly anihalated ?
Quote Islam The Islamic view of hell The Islamic view of hell is things heard by Christianity and made to sound even worse. Hot fat, burnt alive, without dying etc. You dont seriously believe all of that do you bod ?
Quote In the most severe cases of evil there is no escape from hell ever And that would be ?
Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 10 2010,07:59) bodhitharta,Nov. wrote:[/quote]
Quote whether you are tormented forever or completely anihilated neither is lovely Am I hearing you right ? Do you actually think that MAYBE 'hell' is being completly anihalated ?
Quote Islam The Islamic view of hell The Islamic view of hell is things heard by Christianity and made to sound even worse. Hot fat, burnt alive, without dying etc. You dont seriously believe all of that do you bod ?
Quote In the most severe cases of evil there is no escape from hell ever And that would be ?
Such as Hitler, Saddam Hussein, The Pharoa in the time of Moses cases like that. The Quran does not state that all who go to hell will be in there foreverOne day will He gather them all together, (and say): “O ye assembly of Jinns! Much (toll) did ye take of men.” Their friends amongst men will say: “Our Lord! we made profit from each other: but (alas!) we reached our term – which thou didst appoint for us.” He will say: “The Fire be your dwelling-place: you will dwell therein for ever, except as God willeth.” for thy Lord is full of wisdom and knowledge. S. 6:128
Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 10 2010,07:40) Kathi, as seekingtruth says, the word is Aion, which means for a time. I believe in punishment as well, just not eternal suffering, that is inhumane and God is love. And what the punishment is we dont know. I believe it is seperation form God…the Outer Darkness. All the talk of being burnt alive without dying is rubbish. I will find more to post here soon. For both you and bod.
HELL IS A PLACE OF FIREThe man in Luke 16:24 cries: “. . .I am tormented in this FLAME.”
In Matthew 13:42, Jesus says: “And shall cast them into a FURNACE OF FIRE: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”
In Matthew 25:41, Jesus says: “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting FIRE,. . .”
Revelation 20:15 says, ” And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the LAKE OF FIRE.”
Rev. 14:11: “The smoke of their TORMENT ascendeth up for EVER AND EVER: and they have NO REST DAY NOR NIGHT.”
Jesus Christ took hell very serious. . .
Jesus Christ says in Mark 9:43-47,
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:Jesus Christ took hell so serious — He could say without the slightest hesitation — to remove your eye, cut off your hand or foot, if that would keep you out of hell!
WHAT IF JESUS IS RIGHT?
Hebrews 9:27 says, “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this THE JUDGEMENT:”
it is appointed unto man once to die . . .
and one day — YOU will die . . .And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments . . .
Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 10 2010,09:51) Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 10 2010,07:59) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 10 2010,04:57) Quote whether you are tormented forever or completely anihilated neither is lovely Am I hearing you right ? Do you actually think that MAYBE 'hell' is being completly anihalated ?
Quote Islam The Islamic view of hell The Islamic view of hell is things heard by Christianity and made to sound even worse. Hot fat, burnt alive, without dying etc. You dont seriously believe all of that do you bod ?
Quote In the most severe cases of evil there is no escape from hell ever And that would be ?
Such as Hitler, Saddam Hussein, The Pharoa in the time of Moses cases like that. The Quran does not state that all who go to hell will be in there foreverOne day will He gather them all together, (and say): “O ye assembly of Jinns! Much (toll) did ye take of men.” Their friends amongst men will say: “Our Lord! we made profit from each other: but (alas!) we reached our term – which thou didst appoint for us.” He will say: “The Fire be your dwelling-place: you will dwell therein for ever, except as God willeth.” for thy Lord is full of wisdom and knowledge. S. 6:128
Hi Everyone,BD seems to be forgetting that his false prophet, “Mohammad”, is headed for this awful place!
Rev.19:20 And the (antichrist) beast was taken, and with him the false prophet(Muhammad)
that wrought miracles before him, with which he(Muhammad) deceived them that had
received the mark of (666) the beast, and them that worshipped his (islamic)
image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev.20:10 And the devil(allah) that deceived them was cast into the lake
of fire and brimstone, where the (antichrist) beast and the false prophet
(Muhammad) are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.For the reader's sake:
I(Ed J) no longer Post directly to BD, nor answer his postulating questions,
because BD continues to make outrageous personal attacks
which go ignored by the owner of this site.Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 10 2010,10:23) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 10 2010,09:51) Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 10 2010,07:59) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 10 2010,04:57) Quote whether you are tormented forever or completely anihilated neither is lovely Am I hearing you right ? Do you actually think that MAYBE 'hell' is being completly anihalated ?
Quote Islam The Islamic view of hell The Islamic view of hell is things heard by Christianity and made to sound even worse. Hot fat, burnt alive, without dying etc. You dont seriously believe all of that do you bod ?
Quote In the most severe cases of evil there is no escape from hell ever And that would be ?
Such as Hitler, Saddam Hussein, The Pharoa in the time of Moses cases like that. The Quran does not state that all who go to hell will be in there foreverOne day will He gather them all together, (and say): “O ye assembly of Jinns! Much (toll) did ye take of men.” Their friends amongst men will say: “Our Lord! we made profit from each other: but (alas!) we reached our term – which thou didst appoint for us.” He will say: “The Fire be your dwelling-place: you will dwell therein for ever, except as God willeth.” for thy Lord is full of wisdom and knowledge. S. 6:128
Hi Everyone,BD seems to be forgetting that his false prophet, “Mohammad”, is headed for this awful place!
Rev.19:20 And the (antichrist) beast was taken, and with him the false prophet(Muhammad)
that wrought miracles before him, with which he(Muhammad) deceived them that had
received the mark of (666) the beast, and them that worshipped his (islamic)
image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev.20:10 And the devil(allah) that deceived them was cast into the lake
of fire and brimstone, where the (antichrist) beast and the false prophet
(Muhammad) are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.For the reader's sake:
I(Ed J) no longer Post directly to BD, nor answer his postulating questions,
because BD continues to make outrageous personal attacks
which go ignored by the owner of this site.
Did you forget that in Islam the worship of any image is forbidden? We worship God in Spirit and Truth like Jesus taught, what image do you worship?Do you worship the Cross or the statues of the saints or photos of Christ?
Hi Everybody,
BD seems to be forgetting that the God of “The Bible”
forbids putting false gods(allah) before YHVH! (Ex.20:3 / Deut.5:7)For the reader's sake:
I(Ed J) no longer Post directly to BD, nor answer his postulating questions,
because BD continues to make outrageous personal attacks
which go ignored by the owner of this site.Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 10 2010,10:47) Hi Everybody, BD seems to be forgetting that the God of “The Bible”
forbids putting false gods(allah) before YHVH! (Ex.20:3 / Deut.5:7)For the reader's sake:
I(Ed J) no longer Post directly to BD, nor answer his postulating questions,
because BD continues to make outrageous personal attacks
which go ignored by the owner of this site.
You still haven't answered me questions. Look ED when I first said I was starting to believe you had a calling it is no different than the many who were called but few that are chosen as I said iniquity was found in you and you chose to use the knowledge for evil instead of good.Is one whose heart Allah has opened to Islam, so that he has received Enlightenment from Allah, (no better than one hard-hearted)? Woe to those whose hearts are hardened against celebrating the praises of Allah. they are manifestly wandering (in error)!
( سورة الزمر , Az-Zumar, Chapter #39, Verse #22)Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 10 2010,11:58) Jesus Christ took hell very serious. . . Jesus Christ says in Mark 9:43-47,
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:And then Jesus said..Matthew 10:28
“Don't be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.
DESTROY both body and soul…fear him who can do that.
Quote Jesus Christ took hell so serious — He could say without the slightest hesitation — to remove your eye, cut off your hand or foot, if that would keep you out of hell! WHAT IF JESUS IS RIGHT?
If that could keep you from being destroyed. God loved the whole world so much so, He gave His only Son, all who believe will not PERISH, but will have eternal life.
Quote Hebrews 9:27 says, “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this THE JUDGEMENT:” it is appointed unto man once to die . . .
and one day — YOU will die . . .And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments . . .
And after that judgment, And after that punishment, those who are thrown to the lake of fire…the SECOND DEATH.
Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 10 2010,11:13) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 10 2010,11:58) Jesus Christ took hell very serious. . . Jesus Christ says in Mark 9:43-47,
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:And then Jesus said..Matthew 10:28
“Don't be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.
DESTROY both body and soul…fear him who can do that.
Quote Jesus Christ took hell so serious — He could say without the slightest hesitation — to remove your eye, cut off your hand or foot, if that would keep you out of hell! WHAT IF JESUS IS RIGHT?
If that could keep you from being destroyed. God loved the whole world so much so, He gave His only Son, all who believe will not PERISH, but will have eternal life.
Quote Hebrews 9:27 says, “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this THE JUDGEMENT:” it is appointed unto man once to die . . .
and one day — YOU will die . . .And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments . . .
And after that judgment, And after that punishment, those who are thrown to the lake of fire…the SECOND DEATH.
Destroy means bring to ruin not to cease from existing.But as I said one is not better than the other, why do you feel being vanquished from existence is better than being punished in existence there are people everyday who suffer so much but still prefer to live with suffering than to not live at all
Quote (seekingtruth @ Nov. 10 2010,02:21) Eternal Hell – this doctrine as it has done more to dissuade many by impugning the character of God as one who demands unending torment not only of the wicked, but of a grandma who never heard of Jesus. This is inconsistent with the character of God. Many teach that nearly all the people who have ever lived will suffer in eternal torment in hell. This has been based on a translation of the word aion which has translated as eternal, everlasting, forever this is offered as the proof within the scriptures that punishment goes on forever.
However the translation for aion only means endless when it derives its meaning or endlessness from the nature of the subject to which it is connected. Best translated as “The entirety of time for the object being discussed” Hence when applied to God it is certainly to be considered unending, when applied to smoke rising, until the consumption of the item being burned, and to the torment of the wicked, until all has been paid. God will not torture a non-believer for eternity
But what about the wicked who seem to prosper until death, where is the justice of God. Scriptures support that God will “balance the books” at resurrection. I believe it is God’s way to recompense, it would be unfair for the wicked to have prospered without ever having paid the price I believe it is God’s way to give justice to those who have suffered by exacting a proportional payment from the wicked
As to an argument that if punishment is not eternal then why would life be eternal? This would be valid if aion was the only word that could denote endless duration however scriptures also use other words to describe unending life; such as aphtharsia (incorruptible), athanasian (hath immortality), akataluton (imperishable), aphtharto (immortal)
The fact that there remains debate on the certainty of the proper translation gives reason to at least question it. And while the traditional interpretation is possible, the alternative seems more in line with the character of God
My opinion – Wm
The character of god is that which killed Uzzah for only trying to help and boasted in the OT about its slaughter of up to 24,000,000 people.I think that is completely consistent with arbitrary severe punishment of indeterminate length for conviction on petty, trumped-up charges.
The character of the god you carry in your head may appear different to you, but it is not the god of the Judeo-christian Book of Dark Magic.
Stuart
Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 10 2010,13:59) Destroy means bring to ruin not to cease from existing. But as I said one is not better than the other, why do you feel being vanquished from existence is better than being punished in existence there are people everyday who suffer so much but still prefer to live with suffering than to not live at all
No, destroy means to end, to perish, second death, the second death, in which there will be no rising for a – third – chance.Suffereing forever and ever would be miserable bod, the only thing which keeps people going is faith that things can get better.
Quote (Stu @ Nov. 10 2010,16:54) The character of god is that which killed Uzzah for only trying to help Stuart
Hi Stuart,We have discussed this issue over and over again.
You seem to be suffering from amnesia again!That account was given by the Scribe of the king.
NOT A PROPHET OF GOD; only Prophets of God are 100% accurate.That's like getting the story from Obama's press Secretary!
Would you consider what he would say to be 100% accurate?Think about it!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Nov. 10 2010,21:04) Quote (Stu @ Nov. 10 2010,16:54) The character of god is that which killed Uzzah for only trying to help Stuart
Hi Stuart,We have discussed this issue over and over again.
You seem to be suffering from amnesia again!That account was given by the Scribe of the king.
NOT A PROPHET OF GOD; only Prophets of God are 100% accurate.That's like getting the story from Obama's press Secretary!
Would you consider what he would say to be 100% accurate?Think about it!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
But I thought that the entire bible was inspired by God.
Did God inspire this scribe of the king to tell a lie?Tim
Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 10 2010,17:31) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 10 2010,13:59) Destroy means bring to ruin not to cease from existing. But as I said one is not better than the other, why do you feel being vanquished from existence is better than being punished in existence there are people everyday who suffer so much but still prefer to live with suffering than to not live at all
No, destroy means to end, to perish, second death, the second death, in which there will be no rising for a – third – chance.Suffereing forever and ever would be miserable bod, the only thing which keeps people going is faith that things can get better.
Shimmer,And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
Revelation 14:10-12It says they have no rest day or night this would mean that theuy can feel this torment forever and ever, unless you just don't accept or believe that very clear verse
bodhitharta,
“they have no rest day or night” Only means they will be given no break until completed.As to the “ages of ages” – (translated forever and ever) an age is a defined length of time.
Colossians 1:26
the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the Lord’s people.My opinion – Wm
Quote (seekingtruth @ Nov. 11 2010,02:58) bodhitharta,
“they have no rest day or night” Only means they will be given no break until completed.As to the “ages of ages” – (translated forever and ever) an age is a defined length of time.
Colossians 1:26
the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the Lord’s people.My opinion – Wm
I am really not debating the issue itself I am just saying that the verse does not say “They have no rest day or night until it is completed” nor does it qualify that intent by saying “They will” it specifically says “They Have” which means it is not transitive.Notice in collosians the statement is qualified by saying “But is now” the previous statement in revelations has no such Qualifier as to infer any completion
Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 11 2010,03:55) Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 10 2010,17:31) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 10 2010,13:59) Destroy means bring to ruin not to cease from existing. But as I said one is not better than the other, why do you feel being vanquished from existence is better than being punished in existence there are people everyday who suffer so much but still prefer to live with suffering than to not live at all
No, destroy means to end, to perish, second death, the second death, in which there will be no rising for a – third – chance.Suffereing forever and ever would be miserable bod, the only thing which keeps people going is faith that things can get better.
Shimmer,And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
Revelation 14:10-12It says they have no rest day or night this would mean that theuy can feel this torment forever and ever, unless you just don't accept or believe that very clear verse
Bod..DAY OR NIGHT they have no rest….theres only day or night on planet earth, if you read before and after these verses, you will see these 'worshippers of the beast' who have no rest, day or night, are still alive, walking the earth with everyone else. So, this 'no rest' seems to have nothing to do with being dead or after judgment.Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 11 2010,05:50) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 11 2010,03:55) Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 10 2010,17:31) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 10 2010,13:59) Destroy means bring to ruin not to cease from existing. But as I said one is not better than the other, why do you feel being vanquished from existence is better than being punished in existence there are people everyday who suffer so much but still prefer to live with suffering than to not live at all
No, destroy means to end, to perish, second death, the second death, in which there will be no rising for a – third – chance.Suffereing forever and ever would be miserable bod, the only thing which keeps people going is faith that things can get better.
Shimmer,And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
Revelation 14:10-12It says they have no rest day or night this would mean that theuy can feel this torment forever and ever, unless you just don't accept or believe that very clear verse
Bod..DAY OR NIGHT they have no rest….theres only day or night on planet earth, if you read before and after these verses, you will see these 'worshippers of the beast' who have no rest, day or night, are still alive, walking the earth with everyone else. So, this 'no rest' seems to have nothing to do with being dead or after judgment.
the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or nightThis is the proper way to understand how this is written. “their” and “they” are the same group and the semicolon[;] is showing these clauses to be interdependent
So whoever are the “their” of “Their Torment” are also the “They” that have no rest
Also it should be noted that the second death need not mean to be out of existence at all as Jesus has said previously that some of those living were dead “Let the dead bury the dead” and we know that it is only appointed to men to doe Once and after that the Judgement if the Judgement is simply death then it is appointed for men to die twice in otherwords the second death need not be similar to the first at all
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