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Hi BD,
We do not accept your cherished writings. along with those of the mormons and others, as being from our God.Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 25 2009,18:47) Hi BD,
We do not accept your cherished writings. along with those of the mormons and others, as being from our God.
So you do accept that Jesus said that my Father has Many mansions, correct?Quote (thethinker @ May 25 2009,03:24) 942767 said: Quote Salvation is from the Jews. Jesus took in his body the seed of Abraham, and therefore, the children of God have come forth from the Jews through Jesus Christ. Marty,
Thank you! This is exactly what I am saying. Salvation came through Christ's wife, i. e., the Jews. All you need to do now is apply this principle consistently. The wife of Christ subsisted only of Jewish believers and through her gentiles came into salvation. Gentiles are the children of Christ's wife. Every church Paul wrote to was made up of Israelites only.thinker
Hi thethinker:We, all the members of the body of Christ, are the bride of Christ.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ May 29 2009,13:10) Quote (thethinker @ May 25 2009,03:24) 942767 said: Quote Salvation is from the Jews. Jesus took in his body the seed of Abraham, and therefore, the children of God have come forth from the Jews through Jesus Christ. Marty,
Thank you! This is exactly what I am saying. Salvation came through Christ's wife, i. e., the Jews. All you need to do now is apply this principle consistently. The wife of Christ subsisted only of Jewish believers and through her gentiles came into salvation. Gentiles are the children of Christ's wife. Every church Paul wrote to was made up of Israelites only.thinker
Hi thethinker:We, all the members of the body of Christ, are the bride of Christ.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,
If we are all Christ's wife then who are her children? When will Isaiah 54 be fulfilled? When will the wife bear children for Christ?thinker
SHOULD WE “WORSHIP” JESUS?
THE HEBREW AND GREEK WORDS [proskynéo (Greek) and hishtachawah (Hebrew)] THAT ARE OFTEN TRANSLATED “WORSHIP,” HAVE A VARIETY OF MEANINGS. LET’S LOOK AT THEM.
At HEBREWS 1:6, the angels are instructed to “worship” Jesus, according to the rendering of RS, TEV, KJ, JB, and NAB, and others.
New World Translation (NW) says: “do obeisance to.”
Young's Literal Translation (YLT) says: “let them bow before him.”At MATTHEW 14:33, Jesus’ disciples are said to have “worshiped” him, according to RS, TEV, KJ.
Other translations say that they “showed him reverence” (NAB), “bowed down before him” (JB), “fell at his feet” (NE), “did obeisance to him” (NW).The Greek word rendered “worship” is proskynéo, which 'A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature' says was also “used to designate the custom of prostrating oneself before a person and kissing his feet, the hem of his garment, the ground.” (Chicago, 1979, Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker; second English edition; p. 716)
The Greek word proskynéo corresponds closely to the Hebrew term hishtachawah́ in expressing the thought of obeisance and, at times, worship.For example, this is the term used:
at Matthew 14:33 to express what the disciples did toward Jesus;
at Hebrews 1:6 to indicate what the angels are to do toward Jesus;
at Genesis 22:5 in the Greek Septuagint to describe what Abraham did toward Jehovah;
at Genesis 23:7 to describe what Abraham did, in harmony with the custom of the time, toward people with whom he was doing business;
at 1 Kings 1:23 in the Septuagint to describe the prophet Nathan’s action on approaching King David.
at Matthew 18:26 in connection with a slave’s doing obeisance to a king.NOTICE THOSE LAST FEW EXAMPLES AND CONSIDER WHAT THIS MEANS.
Let’s look at one more example. It’s an example of what happens when we insert the word “worship” where it clearly doesn’t belong–we get the wrong meaning.MARK 15:19 (New King James Version)
“Then they struck Him on the head with a reed and spat on Him; and bowing the knee, they WORSHIPED Him.”
Many Bible's here have “paid homage to him,” or did “obeisance to him,” or something similar. Clearly, they were not spitting on him and at the same time worshiping him. The verse before (Mark 15:18) and Matthew 27:29 make clear that they “made fun” of him. It was in a mocking way that they did “obeisance to him,” bowing to him. They were not worshiping him and the context certainly doesn’t allow proskynéo to be translated as “worship” here.
CLEARLY, IT SHOULD NOT ALWAYS BE TRANSLATED AS “WORSHIP.”NOW CONSIDER THE FOLLOWING:
At MATTHEW 4:10 (RS), Jesus said: “You shall worship [from proskynéo] the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.”
(At Deuteronomy 6:13, which Jesus is evidently here quoting, appears the personal name of God, the Tetragrammaton.) In harmony with that, we must understand that it is proskynéo with a particular attitude of heart and mind that should be directed only toward God.OTHER GREEK WORDS associated with worship are drawn from eusebéo, threskeúo, and sébomai. The word eusebéo means “give godly devotion to” or “venerate, revere.” At Acts 17:23 this term is used with reference to the godly devotion or veneration that the men of Athens were giving to an “Unknown God.” From threskeúo comes the noun threskeía, understood to designate a “form of worship,” whether true or false. (Ac 26:5; Col 2:18) The true worship practiced by Christians was marked by genuine concern for the poor and complete separateness from the ungodly world. (Jas 1:26, 27) The word sébomai (Mt 15:9; Mr 7:7; Ac 18:7; 19:27) and the related term sebázomai (Ro 1:25) mean “revere; venerate; worship.” Objects of worship or of devotion are designated by the noun sébasma. (Ac 17:23; 2Th 2:4) Two other terms are from the same verb stem, with the prefix Theoś, God. These are theosebeś, meaning “God-revering” (Joh 9:31), and theosébeia, denoting “reverence of God.” (1Ti 2:10)
THE HEBREW
One of the Hebrew words conveying the idea of worship (`avadh́) basically means “serve.” (Ge 14:4; 15:13; 29:15) Serving or worshiping Jehovah required obedience to all of his commands, doing his will as a person exclusively devoted to him. (Ex 19:5; De 30:15-20; Jos 24:14, 15) Therefore, for an individual to engage in any ritual or act of devotion toward any other gods signified his abandoning true worship.—De 11:13-17; Jg 3:6, 7.Hishtachawah́ means, basically, “bow down.” (Ge 18:2)
Such bowing might be done as an act of respect or deference toward another human, as to a king (1Sa 24:8; 2Sa 24:20; Ps 45:11),
the high priest (1Sa 2:36),
a prophet (2Ki 2:15),
or other person of authority (Ge 37:9, 10; 42:6; Ru 2:8-10),
to an elder relative (Ge 33:1-6; 48:11, 12; Ex 18:7; 1Ki 2:19),
or even to strangers as an expression of courteous regard (Ge 19:1, 2).
Abraham bowed down to the Canaanite sons of Heth from whom he sought to buy a burial place. (Ge 23:7)
Isaac’s blessing on Jacob called for national groups and Jacob’s own “brothers” to bow down to him. (Ge 27:29; compare 49:8.)
When men started to bow down before David’s son Absalom, he grabbed them and kissed them, evidently to further his political ambitions by making a show of putting himself on a level with them. (2Sa 15:5, 6)
Mordecai refused to prostrate himself before Haman, not because he viewed the practice as wrong in itself, but doubtless because this high Persian official was an accursed Amalekite by descent.—Es 3:1-6.FROM THE ABOVE EXAMPLES IT IS CLEAR THAT THIS HEBREW TERM OF ITSELF DOES NOT NECESSARILY HAVE A RELIGIOUS SENSE OR SIGNIFY WORSHIP.
Nevertheless, in a large number of cases it is used in connection with worship, either of the true God (Ex 24:1; Ps 95:6; Isa 27:13; 66:23) or of false gods. (De 4:19; 8:19; 11:16)Bowing down to humans as an act of respect was admissible, but bowing to anyone other than Jehovah as a deity was prohibited by God. (Ex 23:24; 34:14) Similarly, the worshipful bowing down to religious images or to any created thing was positively condemned. (Ex 20:4, 5; Le 26:1; De 4:15-19; Isa 2:8, 9, 20, 21) Thus, in the Hebrew Scriptures, when certain of Jehovah’s servants prostrated themselves before angels, they only did so to show they recognized that these were God’s representatives, not to render obeisance to them as deities.—Jos 5:13-15; Ge 18:1-3.
The Greek proskynéo corresponds closely to the Hebrew hishtachawah́ as to conveying the thought of both obeisance to creatures and worship to God or a deity. The manner of expressing the obeisance is perhaps not so prominent in proskynéo as in hishtachawah́, where the Hebrew term graphically conveys the thought of prostration or bowing down. Scholars derive the Greek term from the verb kynéo, “kiss.” The usage of the word in the Christian Greek Scriptures (as also in the Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Scriptures) shows that persons to whose actions the term is applied prostrated themselves or bowed down.—Mt 2:11; 18:26; 28:9.
As with the Hebrew term, the context must be considered to determine whether proskynéo refers to obeisance solely in the form of deep respect or obeisance in the
form of religious worship.
Where reference is directly to God (Joh 4:20-24; 1Co 14:25; Re 4:10) or to false gods and their idols (Ac 7:43; Re 9:20), it is evident that the obeisance goes beyond that acceptably or customarily rendered to men and enters the field of worship. So, too, where the object of the obeisance is left unstated, its being directed to God is understood. (Joh 12:20; Ac 8:27; 24:11; Heb 11:21; Re 11:1)
ON THE OTHER HAND, THE ACTION OF THOSE OF “THE SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN” WHO ARE MADE TO “COME AND DO OBEISANCE” BEFORE THE FEET OF CHRISTIANS IS CLEARLY NOT WORSHIP. (Re 3:9.) Yet, some Bible’s translate it as “worship.” Indiscriminately translating these words as “worship” is wrong.HERE IS THE OBVIOUS CONCLUSION, THE POINT OF THIS POST:
While some translators use the word “worship” in the majority of cases where proskynéo describes persons’ actions toward Jesus, the evidence does not warrant one’s reading too much into this rendering. Rather, the circumstances that evoked the obeisance correspond very closely to those producing obeisance to the earlier prophets and kings. (Compare Mt 8:2; 9:18; 15:25; 20:20 with 1Sa 25:23, 24; 2Sa 14:4-7; 1Ki 1:16; 2Ki 4:36, 37.) The very expressions of those involved often reveal that, while they clearly recognized Jesus as God’s representative, they rendered obeisance to him, not as to God or a deity, but as “God’s Son,” the foretold “Son of man,” the Messiah with divine authority. On many occasions their obeisance expressed a gratitude for divine revelation or evidence of favor like that expressed in earlier times.—Mt 14:32, 33; 28:5-10, 16-18; Lu 24:50-52; Joh 9:35, 38.While earlier prophets and also angels had accepted obeisance, Peter stopped Cornelius from rendering such to him, and the angel or angels of John’s vision twice stopped John from doing so, referring to himself as “a fellow slave” and concluding with the exhortation to “worship God [toi Theoí proskýneson].” (Ac 10:25, 26; Re 19:10; 22:8, 9) Evidently Christ’s coming had brought in new relationships affecting standards of conduct toward others of God’s servants. He taught his disciples that “one is your teacher, whereas all you are brothers . . . your Leader is one, the Christ” (Mt 23:8-12), for it was in him that the prophetic figures and types found their fulfillment, even as the angel told John that “the bearing witness to Jesus is what inspires prophesying.” (Re 19:10) Jesus was David’s Lord, the greater than Solomon, the prophet greater than Moses. (Lu 20:41-43; Mt 12:42; Ac 3:19-24) The obeisance rendered those men prefigured that due Christ. Peter therefore rightly refused to let Cornelius make too much of him.
On the other hand, Christ Jesus has been exalted by his Father to a position second only to God.
PHILIPPIANS 2:9-11
“. . . so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.” (Compare Da 7:13, 14, 27.)Jesus himself emphatically stated to Satan that “it is Jehovah your God you must worship [form of proskynéo], and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.” (Mt 4:8-10; Lu 4:7, 8) Similarly, the angel(s) told John to “worship God” (Re 19:10; 22:9), and this injunction came after Jesus’ resurrection and exaltation, showing that matters had not changed in this regard. True, Psalm 97, which the apostle evidently quotes at Hebrews 1:6, refers to Jehovah God as the object of the ‘bowing down,’ and still this text was applied to Christ Jesus. (Ps 97:1, 7) However, the apostle previously had shown that the resurrected Christ is “the reflection of [God’s] glory and the exact representation of his very being.” (Heb 1:1-3) Hence, if what we understand as “worship” is apparently directed to the Son by angels, it is in reality being directed through him to Jehovah God, the Sovereign Ruler, “the One who made the heaven and the earth and sea and fountains of waters.” (Re 14:7; 4:10, 11; 7:11, 12; 11:16, 17; compare 1Ch 29:20; Re 5:13, 14; 21:22.) On the other hand, the renderings “bow before” and ‘pay homage’ (instead of “worship”) are in no way out of harmony with the original language, either the Hebrew of Psalm 97:7 or the Greek of Hebrews 1:6, for such translations convey the basic sense of both hishtachawah́ and proskynéo.
I think that covers it.
Actually, one more thing. The bottom line is this: If you believe that Jesus is God Almighty, then you will believe the the context in these scriptures demands that those words be translated “worship” with respect to Jesus.
But the scriptures discussed above do not in themselves show that Jesus should be worshiped. They seem to indicate that only God should be worshiped. (And if you believe that Jesus is God, you will believe that Jesus should be worshiped)
BUT YOU CAN'T USE THESE SCRIPTURES TO PROVE ANYTHING IN THIS REGARD.David.
something else:
THE KJV IS extremely INFLUENTIAL.
In the larges “worship” thread, on page 3, Sammo posted a link to an article that talks about the word “worship.” It states:
The Biblical usage of the term worship applied to Jesus means to bow down to in honor and submission, in the same way as to a king or other person of high rank. Many men and angels in the Bible are worshipped acceptably in this way.
There are ten different Greek words that are translated as “worship” in the KJV: Of these only Proskuneo (which is the most common) is ever used about Jesus. Latruo, also translated as “serve” is frequently used to express the idea of giving reverence to Yahweh, and seems to describe the exclusive worship of the Deity.
Proskuneo means to bow down, prostrate oneself in homage, do reverence, adore, make obeisance. It has only that one meaning, which is true in all occurrences. It applies not only to divine worship but also to the respect paid to a human lord, or to anyone in a position of power. It actually describes the physical action of bowing, kneeling or prostrating in respect or entreaty. The use of the word makes no implication as to the perceived humanity or divinity of the object. This is clearly seen from the use of Proskuneo in Matt 18:26 (the parable of the two debtors) where it is applied to the debtor pleading for mercy from his human lord, and from Rev 3:9 where the church at Philadelphia is told that the false Jews will worship at the feet of the church. The KJV translates Proskuneo about 14 times as “worship” with Jesus as the object. In the vast majority of these cases, it can be seen from the context that the “worshippers” had no intent to imply any divinity in Jesus. The wise men for example worshipped him as “King of the Jews,” as did the Roman soldiers who mocked him in feigned worship at his trial. Strong's defines proskuneo as “to fawn or crouch to,” and likens it to a dog licking his master's hand. This makes a meaningful picture in Matt 15:25 when the woman of Canaan came to Jesus begging him to heal her daughter and said “the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their master's table.” By understanding proskuneo, we can see that as she said that, she was actually on her knees, begging like a dog for the crumbs of his healing.
The meaning of the English word “worship” has changed since the 16th century, when according to the Oxford English dictionary, it meant, “To honour; to regard or treat with honour or respect. To salute, bow down to. To honour with gifts. To confer honour or dignity upon.” It could be used of any human lord, noble or magistrate. Vestiges of the old meaning are still seen in such things as calling certain English magistrates “your worship.” The KJV copied the word from Tyndale. Because the English meaning has now changed to limit the meaning to divine worship, most of the more modern versions, even with their obvious trinitarian bias, use the word worship much more sparingly about Jesus. parallel passages all say something like fell at his feet, fell down before him, or some other explanation that is in keeping with the definition above of. Most newer versions omit Luke 24:52 as being without manuscript authority, but either way it means the same as above. Even the heavily trinitarian paraphrase Living Bible translates Matt 14:33 as “sat there, awestruck,” instead of worshipped, although the use of proskuneo would indicate that they actually fell off their seats in awe. In the KJV, many of the occurrences of the “worship” of Jesus make it clear that the meaning of prostrating is the correct understanding, by including such phrases as 'fell down” (Matt 2:11), “held him by the feet” (Matt 28:9).
The Hebrew word “Shachah” is nearly the exact equivalent of Proskuneo, and the LXX typically translates shachah as proskuneo. Shachah is the most common Hebrew word translated as worship, and it is applied acceptably not only to God, but also to men and angels. Two examples in the KJV are :Joshua 5:14 – Joshua worshiped the angel (“man”), the “captain of the Lord's host.” I Chronicles 29:20- The people worship the LORD and the king (David). Also in Daniel 2:46 – Nebuchadnezzer worshiped Daniel, which is a Chaldee word (Segad) with an equivalent meaning. There are many other examples of shachah being applied acceptably to men or angels, though translated differently into English.
Much of the confusion on the issue of worship stems from the few cases where worship is rejected as inappropriate. The worship of angels is condemned in Col 2:18, but a different Greek word is used there (threeskia) which should be translated religion. The angel in Rev19 and 22 rejected John's attempt to worship him, however this is the only case of an angel rejecting worship. In that case, the angel appears to be representing and speaking for Jesus (22:7,12 “Behold I come quickly”), and he redirects John's worship to God rather than to Jesus. We should recognize that this is in context of a symbolic vision. Likewise, although Peter rejected Cornelius' worship, many other faithful men accepted being bowed down to, for example the Philippian jailor fell at Paul's feet in Acts 16:29 without apparent rebuke. The incident of Peter and Cornelius does illustrate that in the church we are fellow servants (as the angel in Rev 19 and 22 calls himself) and that we should not be “lording it” over one another. It is also apparent that in attempting to worship Peter, Cornelius knew that Peter was a man, not God, and was in no way trying to attribute divinity to Peter.
Jesus refused to worship the tempter in the wilderness, citing a command against idolatry (Deut 6:13-14), because the tempter, like false gods, did not deserve worship. He said we are to “serve” (Gk. Latruo) only God. There is no scriptural command or prohibition against bowing down to a human ruler.
Of the 14 or so times that Jesus is worshiped in the KJV, all but two are prior to or at his ascension. The possible two subsequent cases of the worship of Jesus are by the angels (Heb 1:6) and perhaps in the vision in Rev 5:14. There is no statement in the Acts or Epistles that Jesus was an object of worship by believers in a sense similar to the worship of God. We bow to Jesus (Phil 2:10) as Lord and King in homage, reverence, obedience and praise. Jesus is held in higher honor after his exaltation to the right hand of God than before, yet all the examples of his being worshiped by mortal humans are before that, not afterwards. There are no scriptural examples or instructions indicating that we are to render divine worship to Jesus.
Quote (thethinker @ May 29 2009,20:05) Quote (942767 @ May 29 2009,13:10) Quote (thethinker @ May 25 2009,03:24) 942767 said: Quote Salvation is from the Jews. Jesus took in his body the seed of Abraham, and therefore, the children of God have come forth from the Jews through Jesus Christ. Marty,
Thank you! This is exactly what I am saying. Salvation came through Christ's wife, i. e., the Jews. All you need to do now is apply this principle consistently. The wife of Christ subsisted only of Jewish believers and through her gentiles came into salvation. Gentiles are the children of Christ's wife. Every church Paul wrote to was made up of Israelites only.thinker
Hi thethinker:We, all the members of the body of Christ, are the bride of Christ.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,
If we are all Christ's wife then who are her children? When will Isaiah 54 be fulfilled? When will the wife bear children for Christ?thinker
Hi TT,
Surely true Israel is the wife.
The new Jerusalem, united old and new.
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