- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote Quote (t8 @ Feb. 28 2012,10:14) Quote (shimmer @ Feb. 27 2012,23:23) Just to interrupt, “By their fruits you will know them”.
So far, I have only seen these good fruits (lasting) in NON Prexistances (On this Forum), and I have been sitting on the fence for quite some time now.
I wonder if ignoring scripture is taken in your assessment and I also wonder in which side of the fence Jesus would fall in your assessment.It was Jesus who himself said, “Before Abraham I am”. And is believing in what he said a fruit or important to you. In addition, Jesus came to bring a sword to divide truth from lie because one is of God and the other from the Father of Lies. Yet somehow when others fruit causes the same division, people get upset about it.
t8, the 'Fruits of the Spirit' are love, patience, empathy, understanding, humbleness, always counting another as better than oneself, care and concern, not self seeking, not puffed up, not angry nor holding onto a grudge, not ignoring, not 'buddying up with those in higher places' but always looking out for the lost, etc. All of these fruits can be found in the Scriptures.But I havent been following this topic. To me it makes no difference if you believe in pre-existance of not. But maybe I'm wrong, which is why I said what I said. Jesus did say that by their 'Fruits' you would know them.
I also know that in the 'Shepperd of Hermas', Jesus was just a man, and the pre-existant Spirit was in him. The doctrine over this type of 'Adoptionism' and the other has been debated since the Early Days.
When John 1.1 says 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God'. If we know that God is one and that Scripture says there is only ONE God. Clearly this means what it says. What I write here or what I speak (my word) is not me ENTIRELY is it?
Anyway, just my probably error filled view as to pre-existance. I don't really want to get caught up in this.
This is a topic for Shimmer in order to give an explanation as to who are the main persons in the so-called Pre-existence side that have bad fruit or less fruit. It is a perhaps a chance for shimmer to shed some light on the above posts comments with the possibility of helping those who shimmer is talking about.
No t8, please remove this thread, I will not be taking part in it, I do not mention names, and to me that is just WRONG.
Thanks.
Too late shimmer. You made your comment public and now you should stand by what you said in public if your words are to mean anything.
I would like to understand exactly who you are talking about because I suspect that you maybe getting confused about who is on what side.
And do I not deserve an explanation as to the bad fruit I have displayed. Yes I do deserve an explanation. I am part of that so-called Pre-existent group. What is the bad fruit I have displayed?
Let's hear it in public because you have already made it public. It is only fair that we and myself deserve an explanation so we can change if you are right.
From the other thread:
Quote So who is the main person with bad or less fruit in the camp that believes that Jesus was before Abraham and existed in the form of God and became a man. There is not ONE main person, it's most of them as an entire group.
Not including you t8. You have to be nice, etc.
I just notice in others of the pre-existant group the following characterisitcs in all:
– Conditional “love”
– Temporary “love”
– Self Seeking
– Angry outbursts which are abusive in nature
– Un-nessesary judgment of others
– a habit of humiliating others
– Belittling others
– Buddying up (Probably includes PMs about others)
– Holding grudges
– Knocking people down when they needed help
– Showing off
– Lack of empathy
– Sort of like wolves.Now this is not ALL in the group, I know people in the Group who are not like that, also. So maybe it's not 'Pre-Existance' I don't know?
On the OTHER SIDE, I have noticed the opposite of the above, plus:
– Self control
– Respect
– Fear of God
– Not returning evil for evil
– Correcting people the right wayAs I said I have been on both sides myself, and have shown bad behaviour myself.
And I'm TRULY not interested in this thread.
Because the first group will use it for further childish behaviour, and I have already seen the effects of that.
And I'm tired of it.
You watch how fast they'll jump into this thread.
Quote (shimmer @ Feb. 28 2012,15:37) I just notice in others of the pre-existant group the following characterisitcs in all: – Conditional “love”
– Temporary “love”
– Self Seeking
– Angry outbursts which are abusive in nature
– Un-nessesary judgment of others
– a habit of humiliating others
– Belittling others
– Buddying up (Probably includes PMs about others)
– Holding grudges
– Knocking people down when they needed help
– Showing off
– Lack of empathy
– Sort of like wolves.Now this is not ALL in the group, I know people in the Group who are not like that, also. So maybe it's not 'Pre-Existance' I don't know?
On the OTHER SIDE, I have noticed the opposite of the above, plus:
– Self control
– Respect
– Fear of God
– Not returning evil for evil
– Correcting people the right way
“the following characteristics in all:”I always have been fully convinced in the pre-existence of Christ and have read nothing in scripture or anything posted here to cause me to question it.
So, if I have exhibited these characteristics I apologize.
Wm
Well I have noticed the opposite.
I do not read all posts in that thread, but I have noticed Frank call people idiots with no apology and have seen him ignore question upon question.And I don't blame anyone for sticking to their guns when their good questions are being ignored because the person has no answer.
All people want to hear is the answer and saying “I don't know” will suffice.If it is let go, then you only encourage false teaching to thrive and when you expect an answer, you bring accountability.
Titus 1:9: He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.OK, now lets point out some facts about these people.
“Before Abraham I am” group
t8 (myself). I believe that certain scriptures address this debate and I repeat them often and am opposed for repeating scripture. I also test what the other side teaches because I find their answers to be lame. They have to add in extra words to make it fit their doctrine and I am opposed to that. I do not have to add in extra words but can quote scripture as it is.
seekingtruth. A humble and honest man who seems to be a very balanced person. I consider him a wise person and hope he never changes, but only gets better.
Mike must be tired of having people ignore his good questions. He in turn answers questions that are asked of him why shouldn't others answer him. Of course we know why, but Mike gives ample opportunity for them.
Terricca may not have perfect English being French and all that, and he may be blunt as in not subtle, but I find the heart of what he posts to be brutally honest and true much of the time. It is possible that I have missed some of his posts that might not be what I say, but I speak for that which I have read of his.
Irene to me is baffled as to why so many ignore so many scriptures. I find her to be a nice lady with strong faith who doesn't mind being brutally honest at times. Like all of us she is not perfect.
“Before Abraham, I am not” group
Frank calls people idiots repeatedly and repeatedly ignores good questions, provides lame answers to scriptures that contradict his view, and posts spam which he has been told to not do, (scrape content and link to other sites). We want to hear what he thinks in his own words but all we get is spam and avoidance. It seems to me that he is a blind follower of someone else and refers to this person's words and ignores everyone else who doesn't agree. This behaviour is not healthy for him and for the conversation at large.
Gene comes across to me as a relatively patient person who doesn't often anger but still does from time to time. My biggest concern with him is that he will ignore anything that doesn't line up with his view regardless and in moments of frustration will resort to calling the opposing view antichrist for believing that Jesus existed before Abraham or existed in the form of God before existing in the flesh. Gene seems to nearly always take the opposite view. He doesn't believe that we as humans are free to choose for example, so to this end, if these 2 groups are in opposition, then what can he really do? Nothing according to him because we are not free to choose.
Kerwin. I don't read his posts so I cannot comment on the man, but I don't think he has ever been reported for abuse so might be the nicest of the group.
Believe it or not, it is OK to be angry, it is OK to ask questions and to expect answers, it is OK to hold people to an answer, and it is OK to say it as it is, even if it is blunt. Jesus said that he came to bring division even in one's own family because Jesus is the truth and drew a line in the sand and that line is what divides us. All these things are good. Jesus even gave the Pharisees a very hard time. This too was good. If he didn't, then it might have looked like he was supporting them when in actual fact, a person needed greater righteousness than them if he ever hoped to enter into the kingdom. Jesus made this very clear. You brood of vipers. (You bunch of blood suckers). What kind of fruit was that? Blunt honesty IMO.
Seeking, no, I have not seen anything negative from you (From what I have seen). Nothing to apologise about. You are being humble.
I'm thinking, – OK, I know a Trinitarian who used to post here, and he had 'Good Fruits'. (MA) So, it can't be that. But then again, is it something else? Or is it just here? Is it just Internet Forums?
I think maybe that's it.
t8 I don't think it's a good idea to name anyone in a thread like this.
I think it's stupid.
I have seen the effects of threads like it, which tore people down, and built others up.
It is not stupid. You can check out all that I have said as it is publicly available in the forums. I have not passed final judgement on anyone like you did. I simply point out what people say and do. I leave it to God to judge. I am merely condensing it so that we don't have to spend hours looking for it.
You made a point that the group I belong to has bad fruit and I am allowed to counter your argument because I am free to choose and free to question and free to pursue truth and free to ask for accountability.
It is not stupid to defend one's so called group. On the contrary it is good advice to not judge, because when you do, you judge yourself with the same measure.
Be honest and ask yourself which is more likely to be stupid (in your own words),
1) Pointing out what people teach and plainly do in public view, but not passing final judgement.
2) Judging others.t8, if we were not to judge, then why did Jesus say “By their Fruits you will know them”. Ok, so what I did wrong then, was to judge in public like that. Fair enough. Point made.
But what about some of the things which have happened here, which I have seen, done to others? Shall I bring that up?
No, I will leave it.
Goodbye.
Quote (shimmer @ Feb. 29 2012,00:05) t8 I don't think it's a good idea to name anyone in a thread like this. I think it's stupid.
I have seen the effects of threads like it, which tore people down, and built others up.
shimmer. Can you not see the irony?What was it you were doing when you judged us?
You certainly were not building us up were you?
And by naming the group, you named us by reason of being in that group.
And the other unfair thing is that by not naming individuals, people like seekingtruth think you are talking about him because he is in that group and you judged his group.
Quote (shimmer @ Feb. 29 2012,00:19) t8, if we were not to judge, then why did Jesus say “By their Fruits you will know them”. Ok, so what I did wrong then, was to judge in public like that. Fair enough. Point made.
shimmer. Knowing people by their fruits is not passing judgment on people.Calling people idiots is not knowing them by their fruits and neither is branding a whole group by saying that have bad fruit.
What next, all Irish are stupid? All Germans are Nazis?
Next time, call people out individually to be fair to all.
You talk about your dislike of tearing people down and in doing so you tear people down and unfairly too.
Would it not be better to point out what people do if you are going to do this again. At least I had the guts to say what I think of people's actions. When you label a group as bad or bad fruits, it is not fair at all.
OK thanks shimmer. I appreciate that you heard what I said.
Thanks for listening. Case closed from me if that is OK with you.Hi Everyone, I'm in the we all preexisted camp.
Our Preexistence
2Tm.1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling,
not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace,
which was given [[[us]]] in Christ Jesus before the world began, (John 15:27)“The Word” in us!
John 15:27 And ye also shall bear witness (by the HolySpirit),
because [[[ye]]] have been with me from the beginning.
Acts 12:24 But “The word” of God grew and multiplied.More evidence:
Jer.1:5 Before I(YHVH) formed thee in the belly I knew thee;
and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee,
and I(YHVH) ordained thee(Jeremiah) a prophet unto the nations.
Those twice deadJude:1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you,
feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of
winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
plucked up by the roots; Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame;
wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgt8, I see what you are saying, and thank you for pointing it out.
We can all display bad behavior, I know I have. I just thought there was something in it which could be an answer to the words of Jesus when he said 'By their fruits you will know them'.
But I realise that in doing so, I have put people into a Group as all being the same, when obviously they are not.
So, I apologise to THEM.
Yes case closed, thanks.
Quote (shimmer @ Feb. 28 2012,18:02) Seeking, no, I have not seen anything negative from you (From what I have seen). Nothing to apologise about. You are being humble. I'm thinking, – OK, I know a Trinitarian who used to post here, and he had 'Good Fruits'. (MA) So, it can't be that. But then again, is it something else? Or is it just here? Is it just Internet Forums?
I think maybe that's it.
Shimmer,
Forums are to me a place for seeking truth. It allows me to put forth my opinions far more eloquently than I ever could in person, (like Paul “my speech and delivery are unimpressive”) and evaluate responses on the merit of the scriptures offered by those of opposing positions. Unfortunately you get the full range characteristics on either side of any issue. But as to judging good fruits, I believe that was meant to assess if one is building on their faith.2 Peter 1:5 Because you have these blessings, do all you can to add to your life these things: to your faith add goodness; to your goodness add knowledge; 6 to your knowledge add self-control; to your self-control add patience; to your patience add devotion to God; 7 to your devotion add kindness toward your brothers and sisters in Christ, and to this kindness add love. 8 If all these things are in you and growing, you will never fail to be useful to God. You will produce the kind of fruit that should come from your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But those who don’t grow in these blessings are blind. They cannot see clearly what they have. They have forgotten that they were cleansed from their past sins.
10 My brothers and sisters, God called you and chose you to be his. Do your best to live in a way that shows you really are God’s called and chosen people. If you do all this, you will never fall. 11 And you will be given a very great welcome into the kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, a kingdom that never ends.
We should look to see if the fruits are progressively growing, it is a process and we don't all start at the same level with some being fairly new to the process. I believe this was meant to guide us as we seek truth to check the level of “stock” we should put into a teaching, if they haven't reached at least verse 6 (above scripture) then we should not listen at all, if they have reached all the way to verse 8 (above scripture), then we should listen carefully. But it is always up to us to seek truth so we may become; the called, the chosen and the faithful.
My opinion – Wm
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
