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Quote (theodorej @ July 15 2011,21:59) Quote (Stu @ July 15 2011,16:24) So American christians don't even realise just how immoral their belief system is??! Anyway, the democratic principle based on a secular constitution is the only ethical way I can think of to achieve ethical government. I guess a major problem is the pastors that tell their congregations how their god wants them to vote.
Religion does encourage such a herd mentality. I bet the religious right feel it is their patriotic duty to elect a Jesus-believer as president of their “christian” nation without realising that such discrimination, not on the grounds of merit but on a point of religious belief that would be illegal discrimination in most other employment situations, is actually a knife in the back of the American Dream.
Stuart
Stu …. The issue of morality is a personal matter,however,the outline that points to right behavior is found in law whether it be civil or God given …. Our morals speak to how we as free willed human beings decide to interpret them…. there those who choose to conduct their lives contrary to the laws of nature…..and then there are those who choose to adhere to the laws of nature, which incidently are a creation of Almighty God my imaginery freind…
Sure. It is the unnatural things, like abandonment of responsibility through human sacrifice, and believing silly things that are also unnatural, which are aspects of the immorality of christianity.By all means though, be a deist and see things in god-tinted natural terms! You'd be just over the fence from me then…
Stuart
Quote (theodorej @ July 15 2011,22:25) Stu ….. In the USA we have embarked on two counter productive philosophies one is the cowardly posture of political correctness and the other is multicultureism both are counter productive and are destroying the fabric of the nation….Organized religion has fostered these philosophies and is actively involved in challenging the laws of the land in such areas as immigration… Our previous president claimed to be a born again christian while enacting some of the most intrusive laws against personal liberties….So in the spirit of truth I must agree with you regarding the herd mantality,at the same time a vast number of these so called christian churches are any thing but christian….Jesus the man said that many will come saying thay are christian and they will decieve multitudes….This is happening in the USA today… The american dream is slowly becoming the american nightmare because of greed and averace coupled with selfishness these are not attributes of God fearing followers of Jesus Christ…In matters that involve government religion is losing ground fast….America is bent on being a Godless nation just as the soviet union…
Godlessness should be the natural result of thinking clearly about how the universe really appears to be. It cannot be forced on anyone, just as christian doctrine should not be forced on anyone, which is the clearly implied intent of those who claim a “christian” nation.The Soviet Union was all about the imposition of a political doctrine, the godless thing was just a consequence of the application of the communist ideal. If the communist regime had found a benefit in its people maintaining their orthodox beliefs then they would have outlawed atheism, as Hitler claimed he had done (although for anti-Soviet reasons).
You could adopt a kind of One Nation conservatism that insists people set aside their former culture and adopt “American” values and attitudes but the problem with that is it really tries to avoid the multicultural question altogether. Language is culture, and all across the US people go home to households where no English is spoken. You cannot mandate the speaking of English in private dwellings. Indeed as you will be aware it is a very close thing that we are not having this conversation in Spanish. With the exception of First Nation people (what are they called south of the 49th parallel again? I usually discuss this with Canadian relatives) all Americans are immigrants of not too many generations standing. Multiculturalism is a fact of life, and it is actually the core truth of the US. While the multiculturalism of those who think creationist teaching in schools should go alongside the teaching of real science is a minor threat, a major threat is muslims who would fight for a sharia legal system to run parallel to the US Justice system. You have to agree on one federal law in order to be one nation (with lower-case letters!).
I really hope the US moves towards being a godless nation very different to the Soviet Union. Then the American dream that anyone could grow up to be president is a realistic one. Once people have given up the kind of helpless, unthinking and deterministic kind of mentality that appears to be characteristic of those heading for the megachurches, then maybe you have a real democracy where citizenship is taken even more seriously, and people are informed and independently thinking when it comes to participating in democracy.
When your great nation elected W for the second time I was in Europe, and there was a palpable sense there that the voters of America had let the rest of the world down by voting for such a complete bozo. McCain is obviously no idiot, he seems to be passionate about America in relation to the Big Picture (Bush was not capable of articulating any Big Picture) but then look at his running mate… I mean, seriously? Is that the best the Repubicans could do? That is why you need to develop an educated independence and less obsession with religion in particular. Miss Guns 'n' Religion is not what the world needs.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ July 16 2011,00:31) Quote (theodorej @ July 15 2011,22:25) Stu ….. In the USA we have embarked on two counter productive philosophies one is the cowardly posture of political correctness and the other is multicultureism both are counter productive and are destroying the fabric of the nation….Organized religion has fostered these philosophies and is actively involved in challenging the laws of the land in such areas as immigration… Our previous president claimed to be a born again christian while enacting some of the most intrusive laws against personal liberties….So in the spirit of truth I must agree with you regarding the herd mantality,at the same time a vast number of these so called christian churches are any thing but christian….Jesus the man said that many will come saying thay are christian and they will decieve multitudes….This is happening in the USA today… The american dream is slowly becoming the american nightmare because of greed and averace coupled with selfishness these are not attributes of God fearing followers of Jesus Christ…In matters that involve government religion is losing ground fast….America is bent on being a Godless nation just as the soviet union…
Godlessness should be the natural result of thinking clearly about how the universe really appears to be. It cannot be forced on anyone, just as christian doctrine should not be forced on anyone, which is the clearly implied intent of those who claim a “christian” nation.The Soviet Union was all about the imposition of a political doctrine, the godless thing was just a consequence of the application of the communist ideal. If the communist regime had found a benefit in its people maintaining their orthodox beliefs then they would have outlawed atheism, as Hitler claimed he had done (although for anti-Soviet reasons).
You could adopt a kind of One Nation conservatism that insists people set aside their former culture and adopt “American” values and attitudes but the problem with that is it really tries to avoid the multicultural question altogether. Language is culture, and all across the US people go home to households where no English is spoken. You cannot mandate the speaking of English in private dwellings. Indeed as you will be aware it is a very close thing that we are not having this conversation in Spanish. With the exception of First Nation people (what are they called south of the 49th parallel again? I usually discuss this with Canadian relatives) all Americans are immigrants of not too many generations standing. Multiculturalism is a fact of life, and it is actually the core truth of the US. While the multiculturalism of those who think creationist teaching in schools should go alongside the teaching of real science is a minor threat, a major threat is muslims who would fight for a sharia legal system to run parallel to the US Justice system. You have to agree on one federal law in order to be one nation (with lower-case letters!).
I really hope the US moves towards being a godless nation very different to the Soviet Union. Then the American dream that anyone could grow up to be president is a realistic one. Once people have given up the kind of helpless, unthinking and deterministic kind of mentality that appears to be characteristic of those heading for the megachurches, then maybe you have a real democracy where citizenship is taken even more seriously, and people are informed and independently thinking when it comes to participating in democracy.
When your great nation elected W for the second time I was in Europe, and there was a palpable sense there that the voters of America had let the rest of the world down by voting for such a complete bozo. McCain is obviously no idiot, he seems to be passionate about America in relation to the Big Picture (Bush was not capable of articulating any Big Picture) but then look at his running mate… I mean, seriously? Is that the best the Repubicans could do? That is why you need to develop an educated independence and less obsession with religion in particular. Miss Guns 'n' Religion is not what the world needs.
Stuart
Stu …. What the world needs is a viable America capable of mutifacited trading coupled with a mutual respect for each others culture….America is entitled to a culture just as the European or the Asian and Middle East have… Our culture is being destroyed by immigrants that bring nothing and take what they can…. English is the established language of the American Culture yet government and industry is forcing a language on the populus that is that of an invading hoarde…We have celebrated and rewarded the lazy non performers and they inturn are given the opportunity to vote my checkbook because of a government that has lost touch with God given liberty and freedom….So any bimbo will do then?
Interesting on the trading front. NZ seeks (as do many) a free-trade agreement with the US, partly because it might help our tourism industry but mainly because it would open up a billion dollar opportunity for our agricultural exports.
Two obvious riders have come to light: firstly a group of senators signed a letter complaining about our drug buying agency, who are basically able to make a tiny national drug budget go a long way by constantly inviting competition and substituting generic products as a lever to further bulk deals with the (mainly US) pharmaceutical companies. Apparently that kind of thing is not fair somehow.
Secondly NZ has rushed through its parliament an anti-piracy law that supports copyright holders approaching ISPs of people found to have been downloading copyright material, with a “three strikes and you get your internet suspended / go to court” scenario. Of course there are legitimate arguments for the law, but there are many against it that are specific to NZ. If it comes to someone downloading the movie Robocop 43 instead of buying the DVD or going to the videostore and hiring it, then I have little sympathy. But we don't have that strong a currency and our cable / free to air TV companies often don't buy expensive series for years, or not at all and many of those programmes will never make it to DVD, so it is not as if there is any actual financial loss to someone recording the show and making it available on the internet and having a New Zealander downloading it. As for the music industry, they don't appear able to work out how to use downloading of music to make a profit. The major music retail sites don't allow downloads from NZ IP addresses apparently, and maybe not just us.
I don't think we will give way on the drug thing, but we have already given up sovereign control on the cultural benefits of piracy for the sake of conforming to US demands prior to “trading freely”. Although we still don't have a free trade agreement.
Who are these immigrants who are destroying everything? Mexicans? Surely not, I'd bet the illegals pole-vaulting your southern ramparts work as hard as anyone. At least they showed initiative in dodging the gunfire. Canadians? Their economy seems to constantly be shedding jobs but you would invite them in, surely. What aspects of the established “American culture” do you think are being changed? Your Democrats would be considered well to the right in the political spectrum of NZ. We have an established social welfare system that has free health care (although you pay for your GP visit) and universal superannuation on retirement. You would think us communist by comparison!
Once again, I don't think you will find that any god gave you liberty and freedom. That was organised by those who wrote your secular constitution. Those who believe god has an important part to play in the running of their countries tend to end up with the least freedom of anyone. Iran and North Korea are particular examples!
Stuart
Stu …. you present a salient argument and it speaks to a few obvious facts….The US has 300 plus million people and big Pharma is one of the many problems with our healthcare system….As for the mexicans and euro slicks who enter my country illegally they take menial jobs while taking full advantage of social welfare programs such as food stamps,free medical and so on…I am paying for this through corporate taxes and personal taxes….We have a government that has seen fit to allow this invasion… The average cost to the american taxpayer for every illegal is appx $14k a year….Mexico is exporting its poor to the US and a multibillion dollar cash flow to mexico is the result…The principles that made this country great have been abandoned because the people have decided to live by the law of the jungle instead of the law of the land that is rooted in biblical principle….A man should earn his keep by the sweat of his brow and should labor all his life with sabbatical periods through out…This Idea of living off someone elses labor is a celebration of the lazy and a punisment to the productive…
So those illegal immigrants who are taking menial jobs and costing $14,000 each, are they working full-time at jobs which do not pay a subsistence wage at the US cost of living? I'd guess that any Mexican willing to risk dying in a truck is fairly motivated to work, and probably does labour in jobs that US citizens would prefer not to have to take. The numbers of people who genuinely want to sit around doing nothing on the unemployment benefit is very small, it is a point of dignity that people have economic independence, and I don't think any country has a benefit you could boast about. Your federal minimum wage is $7.25, I believe. Californians get $8. Would you work for that? That level sits between those of Spain and Greece, both severely troubled economies. How did that last worldwide recession work out? Was it US banks lending mortgage money to poor prospects? Why were they poor? Isn't this the richest economy in the world?
The question would be whether you support the attempts of some Republicans to abolish the minimum wage. I think you would see that $14,000 have to go up via other routes. Maybe even through increases in crime.
So what were those early settlers escaping from? Persecution? Were there immigration controls then that barricaded against economic refugees? This great immigrant nation of yours, the richest country on the planet, cannot afford to have a few thousands of desperate Mexicans working at subsistence levels? Let's say one of those illegals was escaping what he thought was religious persecution, not just poverty in a Central American country. Would you have a different view? If so, what has changed since the arrival of the first settlers, escaping the same thing?
Big Pharma is a challenging one. I accept their argument that drug research is breathtakingly expensive, and you need a large team of people working very slowly in discovery and development of new treatments, but on the other hand every $12 spent on patent lawyers is another person that could have been cured of River Blindness in West Africa (Merck does donate its ivermectin to this cause).
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ July 18 2011,09:11) So those illegal immigrants who are taking menial jobs and costing $14,000 each, are they working full-time at jobs which do not pay a subsistence wage at the US cost of living? I'd guess that any Mexican willing to risk dying in a truck is fairly motivated to work, and probably does labour in jobs that US citizens would prefer not to have to take. The numbers of people who genuinely want to sit around doing nothing on the unemployment benefit is very small, it is a point of dignity that people have economic independence, and I don't think any country has a benefit you could boast about. Your federal minimum wage is $7.25, I believe. Californians get $8. Would you work for that? That level sits between those of Spain and Greece, both severely troubled economies. How did that last worldwide recession work out? Was it US banks lending mortgage money to poor prospects? Why were they poor? Isn't this the richest economy in the world? The question would be whether you support the attempts of some Republicans to abolish the minimum wage. I think you would see that $14,000 have to go up via other routes. Maybe even through increases in crime.
So what were those early settlers escaping from? Persecution? Were there immigration controls then that barricaded against economic refugees? This great immigrant nation of yours, the richest country on the planet, cannot afford to have a few thousands of desperate Mexicans working at subsistence levels? Let's say one of those illegals was escaping what he thought was religious persecution, not just poverty in a Central American country. Would you have a different view? If so, what has changed since the arrival of the first settlers, escaping the same thing?
Big Pharma is a challenging one. I accept their argument that drug research is breathtakingly expensive, and you need a large team of people working very slowly in discovery and development of new treatments, but on the other hand every $12 spent on patent lawyers is another person that could have been cured of River Blindness in West Africa (Merck does donate its ivermectin to this cause).
Stuart
Stu …. Focus on this….. there are millions of people seeking citizenship in this country and chose to follow the rules and enter legally through a process that allows our government to screen and vette potential immigrants…. I wouldn't care how far they drove or how they got here…this is a nation of laws and our laws dictate this vetting process…They are invaders in my country….See if NZ would tolerate this nonsense…Stu …. you stats are dated ….. the true estimate is there appx. 20+ million ilegals living the US as we speak ….. taking advantage of the welfare system and free education that I PAY FOR….
I agree of course in regards to the US having sovereign rights regarding who it lets in and who it doesn't. I am interested in the reality of what happens when illegals do make it in. I don't think your economic analysis works out entirely.
Those illegals represent a source of cheap labour, that drives down the cost of labour to your benefit as someone who is better off. The rich get richer at the expense of all low-paid workers in the US, regardless of whether they are citizens or not. I think you would find a lot of other people who would disagree that this source of cheap labour should be controlled more tightly. Those immigrants participate in the economy, using goods and services, and they do contribute many billions into social security. if you expect them to earn a livable wage then you will either be paying taxes for benefits or be paying higher wages to them through higher prices for the goods and services they produce, because it does not matter whether you are talking about illegals or low-wage US citizens, the effect is the same. Which would you prefer?
The other problem of course is that if you drive their employers underground you compound the problem by forcing them to be paid in cash and they don't contribute anything to the tax take then. I concede the point that there is money being sent offshore, but if you look at the difference between the tax contributions and the social service cost of those workers it cannot be a great sum disappearing from the economy. It will not only be the illegals doing that, they must represent a tiny fraction of the total. Just think of all those funds sent offshore into tax havens by the very well-off. And they are not fighting for a better life for themselves and their families.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ July 19 2011,18:35) I agree of course in regards to the US having sovereign rights regarding who it lets in and who it doesn't. I am interested in the reality of what happens when illegals do make it in. I don't think your economic analysis works out entirely. Those illegals represent a source of cheap labour, that drives down the cost of labour to your benefit as someone who is better off. The rich get richer at the expense of all low-paid workers in the US, regardless of whether they are citizens or not. I think you would find a lot of other people who would disagree that this source of cheap labour should be controlled more tightly. Those immigrants participate in the economy, using goods and services, and they do contribute many billions into social security. if you expect them to earn a livable wage then you will either be paying taxes for benefits or be paying higher wages to them through higher prices for the goods and services they produce, because it does not matter whether you are talking about illegals or low-wage US citizens, the effect is the same. Which would you prefer?
The other problem of course is that if you drive their employers underground you compound the problem by forcing them to be paid in cash and they don't contribute anything to the tax take then. I concede the point that there is money being sent offshore, but if you look at the difference between the tax contributions and the social service cost of those workers it cannot be a great sum disappearing from the economy. It will not only be the illegals doing that, they must represent a tiny fraction of the total. Just think of all those funds sent offshore into tax havens by the very well-off. And they are not fighting for a better life for themselves and their families.
Stuart
Stu …. They cost the American taxpayer 14k a head….Getting my lawn cut a little cheaper is no consolation…you espouse the same liberal crap every body else from the outside does until your country gets invaded….Stu …. We have 40 dollar an hour United Auto worker union members retiring after building auto mobiles that fall apart…. We have teachers retiring with pensions in the hundreds of thousands per year and our kids can,t read….We have civil servants with pensions in the hundreds of thousands….speak to me about the rich getting richer on the working man….When these dopes in Washington finally realize that empowering the poor is stupid the wealth of this nation will be gone…The productive side of this economy is loosing its wealth…
So your problem is you don't feel you are getting value for money. It is not only the US that makes cars with less care than might be be expected. As the cliche goes, if you think education is expensive you want to try ignorance! If you keep that economic gap widening, with the well-off keeping quiet about illegal immigration because they benefit from it, and continue to strip unions of power…well, a long way down that road you might even find out what it was like living in Russia in 1917.
Stuart
Quote (theodorej @ July 19 2011,23:27) Stu …. We have 40 dollar an hour United Auto worker union members retiring after building auto mobiles that fall apart…. We have teachers retiring with pensions in the hundreds of thousands per year and our kids can,t read….We have civil servants with pensions in the hundreds of thousands….speak to me about the rich getting richer on the working man….When these dopes in Washington finally realize that empowering the poor is stupid the wealth of this nation will be gone…The productive side of this economy is loosing its wealth…
Though in some way I am agreement with you I have a question to ask. The question is “how do you empower the poor if you do not educate them?”I am tying in your points about kids not being able to read after being educated and the one about empowering the poor.
Of course I agree that this just means that you are not getting the value for your money if the goal is empowering the poor.
Quote (kerwin @ July 20 2011,21:18) Quote (theodorej @ July 19 2011,23:27) Stu …. We have 40 dollar an hour United Auto worker union members retiring after building auto mobiles that fall apart…. We have teachers retiring with pensions in the hundreds of thousands per year and our kids can,t read….We have civil servants with pensions in the hundreds of thousands….speak to me about the rich getting richer on the working man….When these dopes in Washington finally realize that empowering the poor is stupid the wealth of this nation will be gone…The productive side of this economy is loosing its wealth…
Though in some way I am agreement with you I have a question to ask. The question is “how do you empower the poor if you do not educate them?”I am tying in your points about kids not being able to read after being educated and the one about empowering the poor.
Of course I agree that this just means that you are not getting the value for your money if the goal is empowering the poor.
Kerwin …. Excelent question! ….. You provide them with free food,free education and then you empower them By giving them a right to vote the wealth of those who work for a living…. In the process the poor procreate irresponsibly,recreating their poverty in another generation…and so it goes …. when you allow a government to be your provider…Quote (theodorej @ July 21 2011,01:37) Quote (kerwin @ July 20 2011,21:18) Quote (theodorej @ July 19 2011,23:27) Stu …. We have 40 dollar an hour United Auto worker union members retiring after building auto mobiles that fall apart…. We have teachers retiring with pensions in the hundreds of thousands per year and our kids can,t read….We have civil servants with pensions in the hundreds of thousands….speak to me about the rich getting richer on the working man….When these dopes in Washington finally realize that empowering the poor is stupid the wealth of this nation will be gone…The productive side of this economy is loosing its wealth…
Though in some way I am agreement with you I have a question to ask. The question is “how do you empower the poor if you do not educate them?”I am tying in your points about kids not being able to read after being educated and the one about empowering the poor.
Of course I agree that this just means that you are not getting the value for your money if the goal is empowering the poor.
Kerwin …. Excelent question! ….. You provide them with free food,free education and then you empower them By giving them a right to vote the wealth of those who work for a living…. In the process the poor procreate irresponsibly,recreating their poverty in another generation…and so it goes …. when you allow a government to be your provider…
I did come from the poor class and the government aided me in paying for the education that allowed my to improve myself so I cannot say their actions do not have successes.On the other hand they often undermine the very things that bring success by pandering to special interests and ignorring the rule that moderation in all things is beneficial.
Quote (kerwin @ July 21 2011,16:22) Quote (theodorej @ July 21 2011,01:37) Quote (kerwin @ July 20 2011,21:18) Quote (theodorej @ July 19 2011,23:27) Stu …. We have 40 dollar an hour United Auto worker union members retiring after building auto mobiles that fall apart…. We have teachers retiring with pensions in the hundreds of thousands per year and our kids can,t read….We have civil servants with pensions in the hundreds of thousands….speak to me about the rich getting richer on the working man….When these dopes in Washington finally realize that empowering the poor is stupid the wealth of this nation will be gone…The productive side of this economy is loosing its wealth…
Though in some way I am agreement with you I have a question to ask. The question is “how do you empower the poor if you do not educate them?”I am tying in your points about kids not being able to read after being educated and the one about empowering the poor.
Of course I agree that this just means that you are not getting the value for your money if the goal is empowering the poor.
Kerwin …. Excelent question! ….. You provide them with free food,free education and then you empower them By giving them a right to vote the wealth of those who work for a living…. In the process the poor procreate irresponsibly,recreating their poverty in another generation…and so it goes …. when you allow a government to be your provider…
I did come from the poor class and the government aided me in paying for the education that allowed my to improve myself so I cannot say their actions do not have successes.On the other hand they often undermine the very things that bring success by pandering to special interests and ignorring the rule that moderation in all things is beneficial.
Kerwin … I was not privledged either….We were not poor ,we just didn't have any money….Government owes folks nothing…. “It is appointed unto the man to labor all his days and to earn his keep by sweat of his brow”…..This government is providing a living to not only the poor but the lazy and dishonest as well….Quote (Stu @ July 21 2011,08:57) I see it is not the spirit of 1917 you wish to invoke, but the spirit of 1317! Stuart
Greetings Stu ….. Iam not interested in repeating history,however,Iam interested in an end to the free lunch and the beginning an era of self relience……the poor will always be with us,it is the lazy I want to stop paying…We need to put an end to political opportunity that affords those who are living off of my labors to continue to vote themselves benefits that I pay for…Quote (theodorej @ July 21 2011,15:00) Quote (kerwin @ July 21 2011,16:22) Quote (theodorej @ July 21 2011,01:37) Quote (kerwin @ July 20 2011,21:18) Quote (theodorej @ July 19 2011,23:27) Stu …. We have 40 dollar an hour United Auto worker union members retiring after building auto mobiles that fall apart…. We have teachers retiring with pensions in the hundreds of thousands per year and our kids can,t read….We have civil servants with pensions in the hundreds of thousands….speak to me about the rich getting richer on the working man….When these dopes in Washington finally realize that empowering the poor is stupid the wealth of this nation will be gone…The productive side of this economy is loosing its wealth…
Though in some way I am agreement with you I have a question to ask. The question is “how do you empower the poor if you do not educate them?”I am tying in your points about kids not being able to read after being educated and the one about empowering the poor.
Of course I agree that this just means that you are not getting the value for your money if the goal is empowering the poor.
Kerwin …. Excelent question! ….. You provide them with free food,free education and then you empower them By giving them a right to vote the wealth of those who work for a living…. In the process the poor procreate irresponsibly,recreating their poverty in another generation…and so it goes …. when you allow a government to be your provider…
I did come from the poor class and the government aided me in paying for the education that allowed my to improve myself so I cannot say their actions do not have successes.On the other hand they often undermine the very things that bring success by pandering to special interests and ignorring the rule that moderation in all things is beneficial.
Kerwin … I was not privledged either….We were not poor ,we just didn't have any money….Government owes folks nothing…. “It is appointed unto the man to labor all his days and to earn his keep by sweat of his brow”…..This government is providing a living to not only the poor but the lazy and dishonest as well….
theodorej,I have to disagree with you as government does owe its citizens in that its underlying duty to God is to secure the God given rights of the people.
If the government choose to be charitable then that is it's choice. My complaint is if that charity becomes excessive then is destroys the very rights is is claiming to secure.
It seems that the governmment of the U.S. encourages bad behavior because it believe such behavior aids the economy. It may be rethinking that idea but change comes slowly as there are always those who resist it. Hopefully it is fast enough to avoid disaster but whatever the case God has planned for it and his plan is righteous.
The poor are no more at fault than any other group since many act in their own interests and not the interests of the whole. That is what happens in a world ruled by sin.
Trust in Jesus, trust in God, that all things will happen and are happening for the longterm benefit of those that seek God.
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