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Quote (terraricca @ July 09 2011,04:29) stu Quote I believe in the spiritual aspect of feeling some awe at the amazing good fortune of having been born as a primate with a brain big enough to acquire some comprehension of how the universe works, and to understand my place within it the only reason why you are alive is because ,you got out of Africa wilderness,and live in city;s and government that promote christian believes ;
see what happen in Africa to those who staid or could not do what you did or you parents did ect;
may be you should go back there to really have a taste of what it is or like it was long ago when there was no christian value,and all were living from there own FEELINGS,rape,murder,and what not ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;survival of the strong.
Pierre
The government of my country does not promote christian beliefs. It is secular. There are hundreds of millions of people alive today whose governments have never promoted christianity. So much for that argument, although you probably think you accomplished some kind of mission there.I don't think the history of christianity in Europe over the last couple of millennia gives us much reason to think it has made the world a better place.
As for your witterings on Africa, perhaps you would care to explain what you mean?
If you know, that is.
Stuart
Greetings Stu …. Be carefull not to scrape your knuckles on the pavement and while you are swinging through the trees you could review Darwins theory on survival of the fitest….When you reach your abode and find yourself enjoying a banana you could contemplate the powers of the universe….The government of my country was rooted in christian belief and because good people have been silent the goverment is now attempting to silence those who espouse such beliefs,firstly in the public square next in the privacy of your own home…..You enjoy the freedom to express your beliefs however you espouse a philosophy that seeks to deprive me of mine….Russia is a Godless nation behold the fruits of a bankrupt nation…
Quote (Stu @ July 11 2011,18:54) Quote (t8 @ July 08 2011,09:04) I am blind because I laugh at the idea that we have the amazing good fortune of having been born with IQ's with a median score of 100 and we marvel at the works of a force that has the IQ equivalent to a gumboot. Something doesn't add up with your view Stu.
Then again, you are a self-confessed ape, but even an ape has a higher IQ than a gumboot, so you still have no excuse for being foolish.
Indeed natural selection involves no intelligence at all. It does appear to be amazing to humans who design things that the illusion of design in nature is entirely blind and reactionary.Still that is the fact of the matter.
Stuart
Religious platitude.Quote (theodorej @ July 12 2011,03:19) Greetings Stu …. Be carefull not to scrape your knuckles on the pavement and while you are swinging through the trees you could review Darwins theory on survival of the fitest….When you reach your abode and find yourself enjoying a banana you could contemplate the powers of the universe….The government of my country was rooted in christian belief and because good people have been silent the goverment is now attempting to silence those who espouse such beliefs,firstly in the public square next in the privacy of your own home…..You enjoy the freedom to express your beliefs however you espouse a philosophy that seeks to deprive me of mine….Russia is a Godless nation behold the fruits of a bankrupt nation…
I see creationist humour has not improved since the 19th Century. They were saying exactly the same thing to Darwin!I don't seek to deny you an opportunity to express your beliefs. How did you come to think that?
The government of your country is specifically NOT grounded in christian beliefs, it is one of the most obvious and best known examples of a secular constitution in the whole world.
Just like your constitution, I do not seek to deny you expression, I seek to deny religious privilege. In my country we have a parliamentary system called select committee, which often hears submissions from the public on proposed legislation.
Let's say the question was the blasphemy law, and lets pretend that I oppose our blasphemy law and you support it. My submission would be expected to consist of evidence-based arguments and statements of principle, for example that no harm whatever is done to anyone through acts that the law considers to be blasphemous, and a blasphemy law is against the principle of freedom of speech. What would a christian perspective consist of? An assertion that the christian's Imaginary Friend didn't like being abused, or that the blasphemer needed to be protected from suffering god's wrath by a disincentive to blaspheme? By saying this in public the christian would be asking for the privilege of special treatment, the opportunity to just assert things without arguing from evidence or principle.
Maybe you wouldn't argue that way, but that was exactly the kinds of arguments made by christians when some of them opposed homosexual law reform in New Zealand 25 years ago.
I wouldn't advocate a totalitarian atheist state, it is still totalitarian. But I do suggest you embrace the secular state that insists you be allowed to practise your religion. After all, I don't think you would like it if muslims started rewriting history like you have, but claiming that your government was rooted in islam.
Stuart
Quote (t8 @ July 12 2011,08:15) Quote (Stu @ July 11 2011,18:54) Quote (t8 @ July 08 2011,09:04) I am blind because I laugh at the idea that we have the amazing good fortune of having been born with IQ's with a median score of 100 and we marvel at the works of a force that has the IQ equivalent to a gumboot. Something doesn't add up with your view Stu.
Then again, you are a self-confessed ape, but even an ape has a higher IQ than a gumboot, so you still have no excuse for being foolish.
Indeed natural selection involves no intelligence at all. It does appear to be amazing to humans who design things that the illusion of design in nature is entirely blind and reactionary.Still that is the fact of the matter.
Stuart
Religious platitude.
The claim of design of living things is a religious platitude. It means nothing because no christian ever says how the alleged designing was done. Or what the designer is.Stuart
Quote (Stu @ July 12 2011,17:20) Quote (theodorej @ July 12 2011,03:19) Greetings Stu …. Be carefull not to scrape your knuckles on the pavement and while you are swinging through the trees you could review Darwins theory on survival of the fitest….When you reach your abode and find yourself enjoying a banana you could contemplate the powers of the universe….The government of my country was rooted in christian belief and because good people have been silent the goverment is now attempting to silence those who espouse such beliefs,firstly in the public square next in the privacy of your own home…..You enjoy the freedom to express your beliefs however you espouse a philosophy that seeks to deprive me of mine….Russia is a Godless nation behold the fruits of a bankrupt nation…
I see creationist humour has not improved since the 19th Century. They were saying exactly the same thing to Darwin!I don't seek to deny you an opportunity to express your beliefs. How did you come to think that?
The government of your country is specifically NOT grounded in christian beliefs, it is one of the most obvious and best known examples of a secular constitution in the whole world.
Just like your constitution, I do not seek to deny you expression, I seek to deny religious privilege. In my country we have a parliamentary system called select committee, which often hears submissions from the public on proposed legislation.
Let's say the question was the blasphemy law, and lets pretend that I oppose our blasphemy law and you support it. My submission would be expected to consist of evidence-based arguments and statements of principle, for example that no harm whatever is done to anyone through acts that the law considers to be blasphemous, and a blasphemy law is against the principle of freedom of speech. What would a christian perspective consist of? An assertion that the christian's Imaginary Friend didn't like being abused, or that the blasphemer needed to be protected from suffering god's wrath by a disincentive to blaspheme? By saying this in public the christian would be asking for the privilege of special treatment, the opportunity to just assert things without arguing from evidence or principle.
Maybe you wouldn't argue that way, but that was exactly the kinds of arguments made by christians when some of them opposed homosexual law reform in New Zealand 25 years ago.
I wouldn't advocate a totalitarian atheist state, it is still totalitarian. But I do suggest you embrace the secular state that insists you be allowed to practise your religion. After all, I don't think you would like it if muslims started rewriting history like you have, but claiming that your government was rooted in islam.
Stuart
Greetings Stu ….Through the years I have acquired an inquisitive nature and in order to answer the question as to whether the USA is or shall I say was a christian nation I studied the federlist papers over a sustained period of time and came to the conclusion based on the writings of the nations founders certain truths to be self evident and that is all men are created by God and are equal and in addition are afforded certain unalienable rights,such as Life,Liberty while in a pursuit of happiness…This language was included in the Declaration of Independence…Franklin,Madison,Jefferson and Hancock to name some of the 55 framers of our constitutional democratic Republic all defered to the almighty God in matters of state this was demonstrated throughout the federalist papers and is part of the nations declaration of Independence and Constitution….The first assault on the republic started with a misinterpretation of certain letters penned by Jefferson speaking to a seperation of church and state….He was speaking to the prohibition of government to establish or patronize any religion….needless to say the misinterpretation brought us to where we are today..we are no longer a republic which is ruled by a body of constitutional laws we are subject to a democratic majority which affords 51 percent of the voting population to deprive the remaining 49 percent of certain rights…..Iam not making any claims Iam stating a well documented fact that speaks to the God fearing christian men and women that stood up and demanded their rights to worship God …. This is the history of the founding of a great nation….The secular humanists have imbedded themselves in government and so far have been successfull to a degree…. to date they have not been able to stifle our freedom to speak…It is this bankrupt philosophy in conjuction with a selfish populess that will bring this nation down….My prayer is that good people just like long ago will stand up…Yes, as the saying goes, evil prevails when good people do nothing.
The USA was and is a great nation. But you are right, it appears to be in decline, speaking from someone observing things from afar.
Quote (Stu @ July 12 2011,17:27) The claim of design of living things is a religious platitude. It means nothing because no christian ever says how the alleged designing was done. Or what the designer is.
What a narrow and limiting view you have.And yet you don't take that same narrow view and judge your own view by describing how nothing made everything or how gravity that created all things got there.
There had to be a first, but you conveniently start with something and do not ask how it go there. So you take it on faith that this something has always been. Yet where is the proof. Where is your explanation as to how something has always been.
You fail even by your own standards.
Double fail.
Quote (t8 @ July 13 2011,11:44) Quote (Stu @ July 12 2011,17:27) The claim of design of living things is a religious platitude. It means nothing because no christian ever says how the alleged designing was done. Or what the designer is.
What a narrow and limiting view you have.And yet you don't take that same narrow view and judge your own view by describing how nothing made everything or how gravity that created all things got there.
There had to be a first, but you conveniently start with something and do not ask how it go there. So you take it on faith that this something has always been. Yet where is the proof. Where is your explanation as to how something has always been.
You fail even by your own standards.
Double fail.
Perhaps it is that you do not understand the explanation of how matter and energy arose from no matter and energy. Christianity is the religion for those who are content not to know. However, you take the extra step of making strawmen to attack.You just assert and assert and assert stuff. What is a “first”? Why does it have to be?
Doesn't look like it is my view that is limited.
Stuart
Quote (theodorej @ July 13 2011,08:18) Greetings Stu ….Through the years I have acquired an inquisitive nature and in order to answer the question as to whether the USA is or shall I say was a christian nation I studied the federlist papers over a sustained period of time and came to the conclusion based on the writings of the nations founders certain truths to be self evident and that is all men are created by God and are equal and in addition are afforded certain unalienable rights,such as Life,Liberty while in a pursuit of happiness…This language was included in the Declaration of Independence…Franklin,Madison,Jefferson and Hancock to name some of the 55 framers of our constitutional democratic Republic all defered to the almighty God in matters of state this was demonstrated throughout the federalist papers and is part of the nations declaration of Independence and Constitution….The first assault on the republic started with a misinterpretation of certain letters penned by Jefferson speaking to a seperation of church and state….He was speaking to the prohibition of government to establish or patronize any religion….needless to say the misinterpretation brought us to where we are today..we are no longer a republic which is ruled by a body of constitutional laws we are subject to a democratic majority which affords 51 percent of the voting population to deprive the remaining 49 percent of certain rights…..Iam not making any claims Iam stating a well documented fact that speaks to the God fearing christian men and women that stood up and demanded their rights to worship God …. This is the history of the founding of a great nation….The secular humanists have imbedded themselves in government and so far have been successfull to a degree…. to date they have not been able to stifle our freedom to speak…It is this bankrupt philosophy in conjuction with a selfish populess that will bring this nation down….My prayer is that good people just like long ago will stand up…
I have to say that I think your view is biased in the extreme. What did Jefferson say about whether it was a christian nation? Do you remember?How about this one?
“The first settlers in this country were emigrants from England, of the English church, just at a point of time when it was flushed with complete victory over the religious of all other persuasions. Possessed, as they became, of the powers of making, administering, and executing the laws, they showed equal intolerance in this country with their Presbyterian brethren, who had emigrated to the northern government. The poor Quakers were flying from persecution in England. They cast their eyes on these new countries as asylums of civil and religious freedom; but they found them free only for the reigning sect.”
…which was exactly the point I was making in regards to islam.
Stuart
Quote (t8 @ July 13 2011,11:40) Yes, as the saying goes, evil prevails when good people do nothing. The USA was and is a great nation. But you are right, it appears to be in decline, speaking from someone observing things from afar.
Thanks T8 …. Iam by no means abdicating,Iam actively trying in a meaningfull way to restore the dignity and respect this nation once had…It is observations from unbiased onlookers as yourself that serve as a wake up call…The greatness of a nation is shown by the character of its people…We are drifting further and futher away from our creator with every stupid law and directive our feckless leadrers enact….God judges nations in the here and now not in the hereafter….Prayer that he would change the hearts and minds of the American people…Quote (Stu @ July 13 2011,16:13) Quote (theodorej @ July 13 2011,08:18) Greetings Stu ….Through the years I have acquired an inquisitive nature and in order to answer the question as to whether the USA is or shall I say was a christian nation I studied the federlist papers over a sustained period of time and came to the conclusion based on the writings of the nations founders certain truths to be self evident and that is all men are created by God and are equal and in addition are afforded certain unalienable rights,such as Life,Liberty while in a pursuit of happiness…This language was included in the Declaration of Independence…Franklin,Madison,Jefferson and Hancock to name some of the 55 framers of our constitutional democratic Republic all defered to the almighty God in matters of state this was demonstrated throughout the federalist papers and is part of the nations declaration of Independence and Constitution….The first assault on the republic started with a misinterpretation of certain letters penned by Jefferson speaking to a seperation of church and state….He was speaking to the prohibition of government to establish or patronize any religion….needless to say the misinterpretation brought us to where we are today..we are no longer a republic which is ruled by a body of constitutional laws we are subject to a democratic majority which affords 51 percent of the voting population to deprive the remaining 49 percent of certain rights…..Iam not making any claims Iam stating a well documented fact that speaks to the God fearing christian men and women that stood up and demanded their rights to worship God …. This is the history of the founding of a great nation….The secular humanists have imbedded themselves in government and so far have been successfull to a degree…. to date they have not been able to stifle our freedom to speak…It is this bankrupt philosophy in conjuction with a selfish populess that will bring this nation down….My prayer is that good people just like long ago will stand up…
I have to say that I think your view is biased in the extreme. What did Jefferson say about whether it was a christian nation? Do you remember?How about this one?
“The first settlers in this country were emigrants from England, of the English church, just at a point of time when it was flushed with complete victory over the religious of all other persuasions. Possessed, as they became, of the powers of making, administering, and executing the laws, they showed equal intolerance in this country with their Presbyterian brethren, who had emigrated to the northern government. The poor Quakers were flying from persecution in England. They cast their eyes on these new countries as asylums of civil and religious freedom; but they found them free only for the reigning sect.”
…which was exactly the point I was making in regards to islam.
Stuart
Greetings Stu …. Jefferson was addressing the dangers of government forming or supporting any religion…It was to remain secular,that did not mean that it had the authority to infringe on any citizens right to worship God and that includes Islam….With respect to the Quakers,Presbiterians and let us not forget the Jews….These folks fled Europe because a government condoned Church was conducting one of several inquisitions forcing conversion and killing those who refused..Your observation has some merit in as much as the oppressive sects such as in Mass.were headed by the appointed governor,eg. Gov.Bradford Mass Bay Colony first experimented with socialism and failed misrably while in Salem they were condeming women as witches….This stlye of oppressive religious fanaticism was short lived but let us not forget it was supported by members of government….government in religion,whether it is encouraged or oppressed is very dangerous….The founders of the USA were GOD fearing and some were church going men and women….They realized this new found liberty was a blessing and not an entitlement..Quote (theodorej @ July 13 2011,22:50) Greetings Stu …. Jefferson was addressing the dangers of government forming or supporting any religion…It was to remain secular,that did not mean that it had the authority to infringe on any citizens right to worship God and that includes Islam….With respect to the Quakers,Presbiterians and let us not forget the Jews….These folks fled Europe because a government condoned Church was conducting one of several inquisitions forcing conversion and killing those who refused..Your observation has some merit in as much as the oppressive sects such as in Mass.were headed by the appointed governor,eg. Gov.Bradford Mass Bay Colony first experimented with socialism and failed misrably while in Salem they were condeming women as witches….This stlye of oppressive religious fanaticism was short lived but let us not forget it was supported by members of government….government in religion,whether it is encouraged or oppressed is very dangerous….The founders of the USA were GOD fearing and some were church going men and women….They realized this new found liberty was a blessing and not an entitlement..
…and of course they made it into an entitlement. They adopted a secular constitution that ensured no other sect would have dominance over their own sects. Jefferson insisted the wall be built up.You mentioned secular humanists. It is important to separate those words in this case, because humanism is essentially an expression of atheism, and there is apparently only one openly self-avowed atheist in your legislature. So perhaps you meant in your earlier post that secular humanists represent some kind of anti-god squad and they have set up a kind of default conspiracy by lying about believing in Imaginary Friends to get elected then attempting to get together to unleash some campaign against free speech of christians.
Secularism is not secular humanism. Secularism is something you should be embracing as the statement of your freedom of expression. As for secular humanists, I think the conspiracy most unlikely in your country. Electing an atheist president would be inconceivable, wouldn't it? Black president, female president, deputy president with a tiny brain, were all possibilities, but the American dream does not run to those who proudly claim they do not believe in celestial conspiracy theories of others' Imaginary Friends, although I'd say your current incumbent has probably skirted over the issue to get elected, and as an intelligent man I'd suggest he is skeptical about gods, to say the least.
I would fight for your right to say ridiculous things in public. However, my goal in embracing secularism is to deny you the privilege of saying ridiculous things and having them taken up as public policy without you providing decent evidence for your claims, or ethical arguments based in universal terms. If you cannot argue something is good for pretty much everyone, and demonstrate that the evidence supports that view, why should your voice be listened to then?
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ July 14 2011,08:48) …I meant to imply that Obama is an intelligent man, I wasn't blowing my own trumpet there…
Stu your position is crystal clear ….. Secular government insures your freedom of expression as well as mine ….Government is to be devoid of religion, however,the people who administer government do not have to abandon their religous conviction….No, indeed they don't.
But that is a separate issue for the voter. Why would anyone vote for a person who held such an immoral worldview as a christian?!
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ July 14 2011,23:59) No, indeed they don't. But that is a separate issue for the voter. Why would anyone vote for a person who held such an immoral worldview as a christian?!
Stuart
I would have to say the numbers speak for them selves there are many more believers than non believers and generally people incorporate their core values into their decision as to who to vote for…So American christians don't even realise just how immoral their belief system is??!
Anyway, the democratic principle based on a secular constitution is the only ethical way I can think of to achieve ethical government. I guess a major problem is the pastors that tell their congregations how their god wants them to vote.
Religion does encourage such a herd mentality. I bet the religious right feel it is their patriotic duty to elect a Jesus-believer as president of their “christian” nation without realising that such discrimination, not on the grounds of merit but on a point of religious belief that would be illegal discrimination in most other employment situations, is actually a knife in the back of the American Dream.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ July 15 2011,16:24) So American christians don't even realise just how immoral their belief system is??! Anyway, the democratic principle based on a secular constitution is the only ethical way I can think of to achieve ethical government. I guess a major problem is the pastors that tell their congregations how their god wants them to vote.
Religion does encourage such a herd mentality. I bet the religious right feel it is their patriotic duty to elect a Jesus-believer as president of their “christian” nation without realising that such discrimination, not on the grounds of merit but on a point of religious belief that would be illegal discrimination in most other employment situations, is actually a knife in the back of the American Dream.
Stuart
Stu …. The issue of morality is a personal matter,however,the outline that points to right behavior is found in law whether it be civil or God given …. Our morals speak to how we as free willed human beings decide to interpret them…. there those who choose to conduct their lives contrary to the laws of nature…..and then there are those who choose to adhere to the laws of nature, which incidently are a creation of Almighty God my imaginery freind…Stu ….. In the USA we have embarked on two counter productive philosophies one is the cowardly posture of political correctness and the other is multicultureism both are counter productive and are destroying the fabric of the nation….Organized religion has fostered these philosophies and is actively involved in challenging the laws of the land in such areas as immigration… Our previous president claimed to be a born again christian while enacting some of the most intrusive laws against personal liberties….So in the spirit of truth I must agree with you regarding the herd mantality,at the same time a vast number of these so called christian churches are any thing but christian….Jesus the man said that many will come saying thay are christian and they will decieve multitudes….This is happening in the USA today… The american dream is slowly becoming the american nightmare because of greed and averace coupled with selfishness these are not attributes of God fearing followers of Jesus Christ…In matters that involve government religion is losing ground fast….America is bent on being a Godless nation just as the soviet union…
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