Women pastors / deaconesses

[Debra]

Quote (Cubes @ Sep. 30 2006,21:26)

Thank God, Paul is not saying that women cannot teach based on lack of intelligence, thus this is not a question of inability. In fact, he seems to realize full well that women are capable but is asking them to DEFER and yield to the men, bearing in mind who was here first, and the fact that women are more susceptible to deception. Teaching, to me, involves more than instruction thru words. It includes MODELING of behavior or skill. Thus, if a godly woman thru conduct only (impossible!), were to model godliness in her home leading towards her husband's conversion to Christ, has she not taught him a better way (even though this is the work of God by his holy spirit)? Thus I am inclined to speculate that women are often teaching/modeling/speaking instructively, but it is the position of authority of a woman Lording over a man that Paul speaks of. To be a recognized teacher appears to be also tied into a position of authority and other offices. For the most part, the examples set forth in the bible seems to show that at least in congretional settings, the men have that position of authority. Deborah was a Judge of Israel. What did that entail? What were the roles of the various prophetess of the Lord, including Anna of the 2nd Covenant? How did the CONDUCT of these godly women differ from that of Jezebel? Why did Miriam get leprosy and not Aaron? I've heard it said that it was because Aaron had a priestly mantel. But Miriam also had the mantel of a prophetess … different gifts, one spirit. Questions, questions, you all. But as long as we are seeking from unselfish motives, the Lord shall answer us according to his faithfulness.

Hi Cubes
I didn't mean by requirments, intelligence, or inability, I meant in terms of having my house in order the way God asks.

[Cubes]

Quote (Debra @ Oct. 01 2006,04:42)

Quote (Cubes @ Sep. 30 2006,21:26) Thank God, Paul is not saying that women cannot teach based on lack of intelligence, thus this is not a question of inability.  In fact, he seems to realize full well that women are capable but is asking them to DEFER and yield to the men, bearing in mind who was here first, and the fact that women are more susceptible to deception.   Teaching, to me, involves more than instruction thru words.  It includes MODELING of behavior or skill.  Thus, if a godly woman thru conduct only (impossible!), were to model godliness in her home leading towards her husband's conversion to Christ, has she not taught him a better way (even though this is the work of God by his holy spirit)? Thus I am inclined to speculate that women are often teaching/modeling/speaking instructively, but it is the position of authority of a woman Lording over a man that Paul speaks of.  To be a recognized teacher appears to be also tied into a position of authority and other offices. For the most part, the examples set forth in the bible seems to show that at least in congretional settings, the men have that position of authority.  Deborah was a Judge of Israel.  What did that entail?  What were the roles of the various prophetess of the Lord, including Anna of the 2nd Covenant?  How did the CONDUCT of these godly women differ from that of  Jezebel? Why did Miriam get leprosy and not Aaron?  I've heard it said that it was because Aaron had a priestly mantel.  But Miriam also had the mantel of a prophetess … different gifts, one spirit. Questions, questions, you all.  But as long as we are seeking from unselfish motives, the Lord shall answer us according to his faithfulness. Hi Cubes I didn't mean by requirments, intelligence, or inability, I meant in terms of having my house in order the way God asks.

Hi Debra,

I am sorry about the miscommunication. I guess I was speaking out loud trying to rule things out as to what Paul might have meant or didn't mean…

I am with you in trying to understand our biblical position in the body of Christ.

Here's where I am so far:

Sgs 8:2 I would lead thee, [and] bring thee into my mother's house, [who] would instruct me: I would cause thee to drink of spiced wine of the juice of my pomegranate.

It's looking like:

God is the foremost teacher,
followed by his Christ,
followed by his prophets like Moses and then the levites and scribes. Also men were entrusted with the responsibility of teaching their families and pass these things on to them. Thus men were appointed to be the primary teachers of the general congregation, and this seems to have held up to the time of Paul.

On the other hand, women taught their children (e.g. Proverbs 31:1f where King Lemuel's mother taught him). They also could teach other women, including their neighbors.

Priscilla & Aquilla of course are an example of how the married can work as a team, and Apollos was not ignorant of the things of God.

[NickHassan]

Hi cubes,
Gen 3
” 9And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

10And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

11And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

12And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.”

Men seem to be natural spiritual cowards, refusing to take responsibility, then blaming the women they followed, but God demands they take their role as priest to their families.

[Debra]

Hi Cubes.

I'll give you a rundown of why this topic is of interest to me…

I was baptized almost 10 years ago, so incomparison to those of you with whom I have been discussuing, my knowledge of Scripture is little.
The first church I went to was very large 1700 members, the pastor was a man and he's wife was also a pastor, she taught the womens groups, and often co-pastored with her husband on Sundays
The next church was run by the God Squad, a Christian motorbike club, this was totally differant and men held the pastoring poitions, the womens roles were to take care of the other duties in running the church. My passion for outreach was incouraged here, both my husband and I attended.
The next, and final to date is pastored by a women, her husband is involved in other areas of the church running. There was alot of grumbling amonst the men, the previous pastor had been a man and most of the grumblers were husbands and wives who had been at the church since it's beginning. This is where I was made aware of the women can't preach issues.
My husband decided to leave, not because it wasn't good teaching,but he just felt that it wasn't right to be under the teaching of a women, that was 4 years ago now, he dosn't
attend any church.
Our church is small these days, mainly due to the grumbling men, who withdrew themselves and some of the wives went too. There are only a handfull of men,may God bless them, who have stayed and supported our little church against the attempts of the enemy to distroy her. Although we are small we are a blessing to the community at large
if it wasn't for the faithfullness of our pastor, who went through some really tough battles we wouldn't still be going. I see her fruit ripening all the time, and the love she has for the flock is outpouring.
I have no problem with God's order of things within the leadership of the church, I can understand why women are asked not to preach, and I'm not looking for a reason to change churches, I've prayed about this and so far God hasn't called me out because a women is preaching.
So this is where I'm at.
Praise God.

[Cubes]

1 Timothy 3:8 Deacons, likewise, are to be men worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. 9 They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.  11 In the same way, their wives* are to be women worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything.

12 A deacon must be the husband of but one wife and must manage his children and his household well. 13 Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus.

[Cubes]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 02 2006,03:38)

Hi cubes, Gen 3 ” 9And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? 10And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. 11And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? 12And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.” Men seem to be natural spiritual cowards, refusing to take responsibility, then blaming the women they followed, but God demands they take their role as priest to their families.

Amen.

[Cubes]

Quote (Debra @ Oct. 02 2006,03:46)

Hi Cubes. I'll give you a rundown of why this topic is of interest to me… I was baptized almost 10 years ago, so incomparison to those of you with whom I have been discussuing, my  knowledge of Scripture is  little. The first church I went to was very large 1700 members, the  pastor was a man and he's wife was also a pastor, she taught the womens groups, and often co-pastored with her husband on Sundays The next church was run by the God Squad, a Christian motorbike club, this was totally differant and men held the pastoring poitions, the womens roles were to take care of the other duties in running the church. My passion for outreach was incouraged here, both my husband and I attended. The next, and final to date is pastored by a women, her husband is involved in other areas of the church running. There was alot of grumbling amonst the men, the previous pastor had been a man and most of the grumblers were husbands and wives who had been at the church since it's beginning. This is where I was made aware of the women can't preach issues. My husband decided to leave, not because it wasn't good teaching,but he just felt that it wasn't right to be under the teaching of a women, that was 4 years ago now, he dosn't attend any church. Our church is small these days, mainly due to the grumbling men, who withdrew themselves and some of the wives went too. There are only a handfull of men,may God bless them, who have stayed and supported our little church against the attempts of the enemy to distroy her. Although we are small we are a blessing to the community at large if it wasn't for the faithfullness of our pastor, who went through some really tough battles we wouldn't still be going. I see her fruit ripening all the time, and the love she has for the flock is outpouring. I have no problem with God's order of things within the leadership of the church, I can understand why women are asked not to preach, and I'm not looking for a reason to change churches, I've prayed about this and so far God  hasn't called me out because a women is preaching. So this is where I'm at. Praise God.

Hi Debra,

Thanks for sharing.  I understand where you're coming from.  My pastors have been married men who pastored with their wives.  My first pastor's wife would teach the entire congregation, though it was primarily her husband who taught most Sundays as she was the director of the bible school and had an active role there.  Truth be told, she appeared to be stronger in this ministry and their testimony is that she led her husband to the Lord.  

At the time I concurrently fellowshiped with others at another church though I was not a member there.  Here the pastors' wives ministered and taught at large specially scheduled women's fellowships.  Often times guest female teachers would come and minister in word and song, and these times were really wonderful.  

I moved and had to go to another church after some years.  Here, my pastor appointed women like myself in other offices, such as directing women's ministry, Sunday school, weekly bible studies (mixed group), and pretty much everything else… except that his associate pastors who preached from the podium were all male.  His wife didn't appear to desire to be that involved in ministry anyway, though she labored fervently in the background in a supervisory sort of way, kept a busy household, and had zeal for the ministry.  You know, she didn't feel she had to teach Sunday school or play the piano, and that was cool too as perhaps some wives might feel that sense of pressure.

In retrospect, I believe that the latter two churches best reflected the biblical stance on the issue.  It is perhaps relevant to note that my first pastor and his wife later divorced and neither pastor now, though I believe she continues to teach in bible school.

[david]

Hi Casey. This topic has recently drawn interest from me. I am not ignoring the other thread, but do want to spend a little time in this thread.

Does anyone know where Nick is or if he's ok? Did the wind get him?

david

[david]

Quote

I think most sway one way or the other to much. Some say women have no positions other than pew warmers in the church. Others say that women can do everything a man does and that we misunderstand Pauls “true” meaning. I believe that both extremes are off. I think women had many freedoms and held positions in the church, but never did that position give them a teaching authority, unless that teaching was with other women and children.

Hi Mercy, if you're still here. I would tend to agree.

Quote

Changing culture however cannot change the directive of God

Well said Seekingtruth and somthing we need to remember.

Quote

So what you are saying…females will always be less than men…never equal.

Hi Jill. This is what is often stated. But it's not a matter of being equal. They are different. They just are. Women love shoes. Men don't. They're different. That's only one example of a million. And being different, they have been given different roles.

Quote

I found in the bible where a women was a pastor. It was in Romans 16:1 thru 2. Our sister Phoebe, a deacon in the church in Cenchrea will be coming to see you soon. But you may say that in the bible it says that deacons must be men, but as you can see…Phoebe was female and a deacon.

Here's the thing Jill. We are all Minsisters (deacons) or servants of God. Paul was a minister (deacon) or servant of the good news. He served others in bringing it to everyone. Since, as you say, the Bible says that “deacons must be men,” then in this instance, of Phoebe, it must be referring to something else, a broader use of the word “minister.” If we look at all the scriptures that speak of the apostles and the overseers or elder or those who were taking the lead among the early Christians, it is always in the masculine. This scripture of Phoebe is therefore referring to her as a servant in Cenchrea, in reference to the good news, as Paul too was a minister.

david

[david]

Quote

Okay..I get it. As a women I have to choose to define myself as second best? According to you and your interpretation of the bible, women came second, and that in itself makes us not as good. Why complacent to the point that someone else's interpretation, even when blatantly cruel, is ok? Sad when men do not realize that we women contribute to how they are perceived. We are suppose to be partners. Not servants.

The word translated as “deacon” in the case of men and in the case of Phoebe I believe is a word that means: Someone who serves, a servant.

Now in some cases, they have been given the responsibility of serving the congregation (what you would think of as a deacon)
But in other cases, that same word I believe is used in different ways. It's simply a word that means “servant,” basically. So a minister (someone who ministers to someone) or a servant can be applied to more than one thing:
Paul was a minister of the good news, meaning that he served people by conducting the service of bringing people the good news. I believe it is in this sense that Phoebe was a minister or deacon.

Quote

Sigh. . . some guys make me sick. Unrealistic, biased excuses to dominate women. In every relationship must we dominate and control each other? Even in friendship, does one friend control another? How ludicrous.

It is sad that such men surround you. But this is not how they are to use their responsibility of shepharding the flock. They are to imitate Christ.
God made us different. We are different. Emotionally, in the way we think, in what's important to us, etc.
So for God to give us different roles isn't something that we should look down on.
For those called by God to the heavenly calling (Heb 3:1) to be joint heirs with Jesus Christ, there is no distinction between men and women in a spiritual sense. The apostle writes:
: “You are all, in fact, sons of God through your faith in Christ . . . there is neither male nor female; for you are all one person in union with Christ Jesus.” (Ga 3:26-28)
These all must receive a change of nature at their resurrection, being made partakers together of “divine nature,” in which state none will be women, for there is no female sex among spirit creatures, sex being God’s means for reproduction of earthly creatures.—2Pe 1:4.

There were meetings when these women could pray or prophesy, provided they wore a head covering. (1Co 11:3-16)

However, at what were evidently public meetings, when “the whole congregation” as well as “unbelievers” assembled in one place (1Co 14:23-25), women were to “keep silent.” If ‘they wanted to learn something, they could question their own husbands at home, for it was disgraceful for a woman to speak in a congregation.’—1Co 14:31-35.

While not permitted to teach in congregational assembly, a woman could teach persons outside the congregation who desired to learn the truth of the Bible and the good news about Jesus Christ (compare Ps 68:11), as well as be a ‘teacher of what is good’ to younger women (and children) within the congregation. (Tit 2:3-5) But she was not to exercise authority over a man or dispute with men, as, for example, in the meetings of the congregation. She was to remember what happened to Eve and how God expressed the matter of woman’s position after Adam and Eve had sinned.—1Ti 2:11-14; Ge 3:16.

In the discussion of “gifts in men” given by Christ to the congregation, there is no mention of women. The words “apostles,” “prophets,” “evangelizers,” “shepherds,” and “teachers” are all in the masculine gender. (Eph 4:8, 11) Ephesians 4:11 is rendered by the American Translation: “And he has given us some men as apostles, some as prophets, some as missionaries, some as pastors and teachers.”—Compare Mo, NW; also Ps 68:18.

In full accord with this, when the apostle Paul wrote to Timothy about the qualifications for the service positions of “overseers” (e·pi′sko·poi), who were also “older men” (pre·sby′te·roi), and of “ministerial servants” (di·a′ko·noi) in the congregation, he specifically states that they must be men and, if married, ‘the husband of one wife.’ No discussion by any of the apostles discusses any office of “deaconess” (di·a·ko′nis·sa).—1Ti 3:1-13; Tit 1:5-9; compare Ac 20:17, 28; Php 1:1.

Although Phoebe is mentioned (Ro 16:1) as a “minister” (di·a′ko·nos, without the Greek definite article), it is evident that she was not an appointed female ministerial servant in the congregation, because the Scriptures make no provision for such. The apostle did not tell the congregation to receive instructions from her but, rather, to receive her well and to ‘assist her in any matter where she might need them.’ (Ro 16:2) Paul’s reference to her as a minister evidently has something to do with her activity in the spreading of the good news, and he was speaking of Phoebe as a female minister who was associated with the congregation in Cenchreae.—Compare Ac 2:17, 18.

david

[david]

Anyone?

I realize that discussing this subject means discussing those scriptures that speak of congregations and disciples meeting together for worship and being organized, but those scriptures are a part of the Bible and are inspired.

So what can be said?

[942767]

Hi everyone:

The question I believe was can a woman teach in the church?  And I believe the answer to the question is, yes, if she is qualified.  But a woman may be married or she may not.

Ephesians 5:22-  states: “Wives submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.  For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.  Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.  Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word.  That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having a spot or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.  So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies.  He that loveth his wife loveth himself”.

Notice that Jesus loved the church showing that love by giving himself for it in order “that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word”. (Ephesians 5:25-26)

In a Christian marriage, it is the husband's responsibility to teach his wife the word of God, if she wants to be taught.  This is not a dictatorship position but a position of love.  Personally, I have endured much correction, and I might need further correction, in order that I might be qualified to teach my wife and my children the word of God.  One cannot teach others until he is qualifed to teach.  I have been shown by the Lord that he is going to use me as a Bishop or overseer in the church, and so being qualifed, I can teach whoever comes under my authority.  

“A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; one that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)  Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall inot the condemnation of the devil”. (1 Ti 3:2-7)

One of three visions that the Lord gave me at the onset of my salvation was a vision of a remarriage.  My wife was in white, and as we walked down the aisle, she was so full of joy that she would jump up into my arms.  My wife has been reluctant to submit to God through me but she is coming around.  One reason may be because of the many mistakes that I made in my walk with the Lord.  As I have said, I have endured much correction.  When my wife is willing to submit to the Lord though me, we will be one in the spirit and as she as learns to obey the word of God as I teach her, this is the sactification process, she will more and more full of joy.  We are one in the flesh, but not one in the spirit.

I believe that the apostle Paul is saying that a married woman should show respect for husband's authority by not asking any question that she may have about the word of God in the church, but she should ask whatever questions she may have at home.  This is not not because she is a second class citizen but out of respect for husband, and also, to maintain order in the church. (1 Co. 14:34)

Galatians 3:28 states: “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond or free, there is neither make nor female: for ye all are all one in Christ Jesus”.  The word of God has no gender, and therefore, I believe that is a matter of a person, male or female, being qualified to teach.  A married woman should show that she is subjected to her husband by wearing covering on her head.  “But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head:”.  “For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the messengers”. (YLT 1 Co. 11:10)  The messengers of God could thereby see that the woman is in operating in obedience to her husband.

All of the apostles of the Lord were men, and so perhaps, it is not intended by God that a woman should be a bishop.  I may point out that the apostles, I believe were all martyrs, and also, she is considered to be the weaker vessel.  It was through her that satan deceived mankind.  (1 Ti 2:14, Gen. 3:1-6, 1 Peter 3:7)

[942767]

Topical

[Stu]

Boring.

And sexist.

Stuart

[charity]

Quote (Stu @ Feb. 21 2009,23:52)

Boring. And sexist. Stuart

yer I can hardly be bothered posting, let alone  even desiring to talk about religion. and the historical pecking order
besides the Natural male reaction is very sever to what he feels he cannot reach for, and he reverts to rejection, or personal attacks to tear down,  or attempt humble.

all men Naturally just need to be respected and adored.
religion hasn't a Natural clue,
they cut their own glory up,
delivering their own honor to beneath baal worship,
words from men that at the spoken, would of never have had a clue, while its their evening, Morning is visiting the otherwise side of the earth.
faith can easily become a chain of lies. could Jesus have even known the truth of seasons in it width spread abroad.
they wrote only against what they understood. they create only a portion in time.
-charity

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