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I was wondering what others believe about this touchy subject.
My conclusions are not concrete but I believe the scriptures are saying that there does indeed exist a position for women as deaconesses, but as a women their role is different in that they cannot teach. They carry out many important tasks as deacons but are not allowed to take a teaching authority from the man.
Romans 16:1
1 I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae.I Timothy 2:11-12
11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.I Timothy 3:8-11
8 In the same way, deacons are to be worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. 9 They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.11 In the same way, the women are to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything.
I Corinthians 14:33-35
As in all the congregations of the saints, 34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.I think most sway one way or the other to much. Some say women have no positions other than pew warmers in the church. Others say that women can do everything a man does and that we misunderstand Pauls “true” meaning. I believe that both extremes are off. I think women had many freedoms and held positions in the church, but never did that position give them a teaching authority, unless that teaching was with other women and children.
Titus 2:3-5
3 Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. 4 Then they can urge the younger women to love their husbands and children, 5 to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God.Any thoughts?
I believe it has nothing to do with the capabilities of a women or her relationship to God.
God has proclaimed that the husband will rule over the wife (not lord it over his wife). During that time period for a wife to speak within the assembly showed a lack of submission to the husband and was cause for speaking against the Christian teaching (the law required submission and since that was what the husbands expected it made it necessary).
Gods word is unchanging and it is just as true today as it was then, however culture has changed and a women speaking in public is no longer seen as disrespect of her husbands authority (at least in regards to Godly discussions) but it should be within her husbands wishes.
Changing culture however cannot change the directive of God that the husband will rule over the wife.
So in my opinion I believe that as long as the husband supports his wife teaching in an assembly, God is pleased to use her, but she should never be put in position over men.
God does not demand obediance, He only requires it (there is a difference).
seekingtruth wrote:God is pleased to use her, but she should never be put in position over men.
Or equal to men? So what you are saying…females will always be less than men…never equal.
Hi Jill,
I opened my post with a statement that women are just as capable as men. If your angry about submission to your husband (if you have one), you'll have to discuss that with God.If there is an interpretation that true to scripture I'm open to it, but I cannot bend to being politically correct.
Nah…I just turned 16. I'm not married. Let's talk about submission. Submission is part of love and understanding. You don't submit to someone just because he is a male. This person has to be worthy of God and a good husband. You assume I am angry? About what? Submission? It is all voluntary…just like God gave you a choice.
Your right, it is a choice to submit (that is what I meant by “God does not demand obedience, He only requires it” you are free to choose dis-obedience). However you have to ignore scripture to say that a wife does not have to submit to her husband.
Your right, it is a choice to submit (that is what I meant by “God does not demand obedience, He only requires it” you are free to choose dis-obedience). However you have to ignore scripture to say that a wife does not have to submit to her husband.
Okay…this is going off track a little. I have a strong feeling you are single. But anyway…let's get back to the topic.
Does the Word of God forbid women to pastor churches?
I read the bible too…and I do not find any concrete scriptural evidence that forbids women to become pastors. It is all a matter of how you interpret. Let's look at 1st Tim 3:1 thru 7.
If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer, he desires a noble task. Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect.
Anotherwords…If you can not manage your own family…you deffinately can't take care of gods church.
I found in the bible where a women was a pastor. It was in Romans 16:1 thru 2. Our sister Phoebe, a deacon in the church in Cenchrea will be coming to see you soon.
But you may say that in the bible it says that deacons must be men, but as you can see…Phoebe was female and a deacon. Therefore your argument that says a woman cannot be a pastor because the office of pastor is identified by the roles of men is made void since there is a woman (Phoebe) identified in scripture that served in a position in the church that is identified by the roles of men.
I rest my case.
Jill,
I've been married for 32 years (in a few months).I agree women can be deacons, as I understand scripture a woman could be a “pastor” over women, but that does not put them in authority over men.
Quote (seekingtruth @ Aug. 02 2006,01:30) Jill,
I've been married for 32 years (in a few months).I agree women can be deacons, as I understand scripture a woman could be a “pastor” over women, but that does not put them in authority over men.
Fair enough. I guess God just wanted us second class citizens.1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea: KJ
I think there is a big difference between servant and deacon.
Just remember these words, he who is least, will be greatest. Who was greater, the one washing the feet, or the ones getting their feet washed.
As for your statement as a second class citizen. Come on sis. What does it say in the scriptures. It says that a husband is to love his wife as Christ loves the church and that the woman is to love her husband as the church loves Christ. Does not the same apply in the church.
Here is where the problem lies. Woman came from man, not man from woman. She is the weaker vessel in the flesh. Yet, in the flesh only. That does not mean that it can not be overcome by faith in Christ. Am I not right? Yet, the apostles did give guidelines to safeguard the church against the weaknesses of the flesh. It does not mean you are a second class citizen. If any is to blame, it would be the devil. Do not blame God.
So rejoice, for the same Christ who lives in you once you were saved is the same Christ that lives in all, men and women alike who are saved. And in this matter, it all comes down to the faith of the believer.
All you have to remember is he who is in you is greater then he who is in the world. Praise God.
Jill,
If you truly look at the scripture it does indeed say that women can be deacons. However, it also said women are not allowed to teach over men. Both, of those statements are clear. It seems very apparent that women can hold positions in the church but none of them can be of a teaching nature (over men). The only way to change what is written is to do what I think causes many errors and say,
“I know what it says, but what it really means is” (that 'someday women can do exactly what it says they can't'”)
People do this all the time, “It all goes back to the itching ears i think.”
II Timothy 4:3
3For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.Quote (Jill @ Aug. 02 2006,11:22) Quote (seekingtruth @ Aug. 02 2006,01:30) Jill,
I've been married for 32 years (in a few months).I agree women can be deacons, as I understand scripture a woman could be a “pastor” over women, but that does not put them in authority over men.
Fair enough. I guess God just wanted us second class citizens.
I own a business, are those who work for me (under my authority) are these people second class? I answer to investors and am under their authority so am I a second class citizen.Other than God, everyone is under someones authority. Jesus is under the Father's authority, is He a second class?
What I'm saying is being under authority does not make you second class.
One thing that puts this into perspective is this life is short. In eternity we are all, those in Christ, the sons of God.
I should clarify that, we are all sons of God now, I mean that in eternity Jesus taught that there is no marriage and thus no women submitting to husbands.
Quote (Jill @ Aug. 02 2006,16:22) Quote (seekingtruth @ Aug. 02 2006,01:30) Jill,
I've been married for 32 years (in a few months).I agree women can be deacons, as I understand scripture a woman could be a “pastor” over women, but that does not put them in authority over men.
Fair enough. I guess God just wanted us second class citizens.
Jill,Second class citizens? Women have the responsibility of have God's children! Raising God's children! Isn't that enough! If I'm right I think Mary was a woman who just happened to have the Son of God
I don't know how you count but Mary had the number one Child of God. Everyone has his/her place in the body of Christ.
When I get to heaven I will be happy with whatever job Jehovah has for me. Believe me!
Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ Aug. 02 2006,17:11) 1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea: KJ I think there is a big difference between servant and deacon.
Just remember these words, he who is least, will be greatest. Who was greater, the one washing the feet, or the ones getting their feet washed.
As for your statement as a second class citizen. Come on sis. What does it say in the scriptures. It says that a husband is to love his wife as Christ loves the church and that the woman is to love her husband as the church loves Christ. Does not the same apply in the church.
Here is where the problem lies. Woman came from man, not man from woman. She is the weaker vessel in the flesh. Yet, in the flesh only. That does not mean that it can not be overcome by faith in Christ. Am I not right? Yet, the apostles did give guidelines to safeguard the church against the weaknesses of the flesh. It does not mean you are a second class citizen. If any is to blame, it would be the devil. Do not blame God.
So rejoice, for the same Christ who lives in you once you were saved is the same Christ that lives in all, men and women alike who are saved. And in this matter, it all comes down to the faith of the believer.
All you have to remember is he who is in you is greater then he who is in the world. Praise God.
Okay..I get it.As a women I have to choose to define myself as second best? According to you and your interpretation of the bible, women came second, and that in itself makes us not as good. Why complacent to the point that someone else's interpretation, even when blatantly cruel, is ok? Sad when men do not realize that we women contribute to how they are perceived.
We are suppose to be partners. Not servants.
God's intent for men and women to be partners is found throughout scripture, beginning in Gen. 1:27. The passage most often used to subordinate women, Eph. 5, actually teaches quite the opposite. Those trying to justify a lesser position for women will begin with vs. 22: “wives be subject to your husbands…” But the passage truly begins in vs. 21: “be subject to one another…” The same Greek verb, translated “be subject”, is used throughout the passage, applying to both husbands and wives. God does not intend our relationships to be governed by a top-down, “who's the boss” mentality. He intends us to follow the example of Christ, our servant-king. The Winter newsletter of “The Lydian network” (for Presbyterian women in leadership) includes an excellent article on mutual submission in marriage, with practical steps for conflict resolution. An excellent book on women's roles is “Women, Authority and the Bible”, ed. by Alvera Mickelsen.
Eph 5:20 giving thanks always for all things in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to God, even the Father;
Eph 5:21 subjecting yourselves one to another in the fear of Christ.
Eph 5:22 Wives, be in subjection unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, and Christ also is the head of the church, being himself the saviour of the body.
Eph 5:24 But as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives also be to their husbands in everything.“Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself up for it;”
And that is the way it is like it or not! There is rank in heaven. You ever hear of archangels (chief angel). Are you going to cry because you won't be an archangel?
Get over it!
Quote (kenrch @ Aug. 02 2006,21:19) Eph 5:20 giving thanks always for all things in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to God, even the Father;
Eph 5:21 subjecting yourselves one to another in the fear of Christ.
Eph 5:22 Wives, be in subjection unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, and Christ also is the head of the church, being himself the saviour of the body.
Eph 5:24 But as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives also be to their husbands in everything.“Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself up for it;”
And that is the way it is like it or not! There is rank in heaven. You ever hear of archangels (chief angel). Are you going to cry because you won't be an archangel?
Get over it!
Forgive me for belaboring this point. Nearly all New Testament scholars agree that the grammatical structure of the original Greek text ties Eph. 5:22 to the previous verse. (Vs. 22 contains no verb– which means the verb from the prior verse– vs. 21– is carried forward. This is normative Greek grammar, and ties the two verses together). This means vs. 22– “wives be subject to your husbands”– is one example of the “topic sentence” of vs. 21– “Christians be submissive to one another”. Of course this doesn't let women off the hook, nor does it make it any easier for me as a future wife to “die to myself” and put my future husbands interests before my own.Sigh. . . some guys make me sick. Unrealistic, biased excuses to dominate women. In every relationship must we dominate and control each other? Even in friendship, does one friend control another? How ludicrous.
In any relationship respect, compassion and communication are of utmost importance, not control or domination
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