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Both of the books referred to in the thread title are from the Apocrypha. Somewhere along the line, the Apocrypha was dropped from the majority of Bibles and the works are considering deuterocanonical. You can look all of this stuff up on Wikipedia or some other souce.
Anyway, some compare the Wisdom of Proverbs 8 with the Word in John 1. So I happened to be reading from the two books in the title and I have supplied some interesting excerpts IMO. Check them out (RSV version).
Wisdom of Solomon
Wisdom 7
[15] May God grant that I speak with judgment
and have thought worthy of what I have received,
for he is the guide even of wisdom
and the corrector of the wise.
[16] For both we and our words are in his hand,
as are all understanding and skill in crafts.
[17] For it is he who gave me unerring knowledge of what exists,
to know the structure of the world and the
activity of the elements;
[18] the beginning and end and middle of times,
the alternations of the solstices and the changes
of the seasons,
[19] the cycles of the year and the constellations of the stars,
[20] the natures of animals and the tempers of wild beasts,
the powers of spirits and the reasonings of men,
the varieties of plants and the virtues of roots;
[21] I learned both what is secret and what is manifest,
[22] for wisdom, the fashioner of all things, taught me.
For in her there is a spirit that is intelligent, holy,
unique, manifold, subtle,
mobile, clear, unpolluted,
distinct, invulnerable, loving the good, keen,
irresistible,
[23] beneficent, humane, steadfast, sure, free from anxiety,
all-powerful, overseeing all,
and penetrating through all spirits
that are intelligent and pure and most subtle.
[24] For wisdom is more mobile than any motion;
because of her pureness she pervades and penetrates all things.
[25] For she is a breath of the power of God,
and a pure emanation of the glory of the Almighty;
therefore nothing defiled gains entrance into her.
[26] For she is a reflection of eternal light,
a spotless mirror of the working of God,
and an image of his goodness.
[27] Though she is but one, she can do all things,
and while remaining in herself, she renews all things;
in every generation she passes into holy souls
and makes them friends of God, and prophets;
[28] for God loves nothing so much as the man who lives with wisdom.
[29] For she is more beautiful than the sun,
and excels every constellation of the stars.
Compared with the light she is found to be superior,
[30] for it is succeeded by the night,
but against wisdom evil does not prevail.Wisdom 8
[1] She reaches mightily from one end of the earth to the other,
and she orders all things well.
[2] I loved her and sought her from my youth,
and I desired to take her for my bride,
and I became enamored of her beauty.
[3] She glorifies her noble birth by living with God,
and the Lord of all loves her.
[4] For she is an initiate in the knowledge of God,
and an associate in his works.
[5] If riches are a desirable possession in life,
what is richer than wisdom who effects all things?
[6] And if understanding is effective,
who more than she is fashioner of what exists?
[7] And if any one loves righteousness,
her labors are virtues;
for she teaches self-control and prudence,
justice and courage;
nothing in life is more profitable for men than these.
[8] And if any one longs for wide experience,
she knows the things of old, and infers the things to come;
she understands turns of speech and the solutions of riddles;
she has foreknowledge of signs and wonders
and of the outcome of seasons and times.Wisdom 9
1] “O God of my fathers and Lord of mercy,
who hast made all things by thy word,
[2] and by thy wisdom hast formed man,
to have dominion over the creatures thou hast made,
[3] and rule the world in holiness and righteousness,
and pronounce judgment in uprightness of soul,
[4] give me the wisdom that sits by thy throne,
and do not reject me from among thy servants.
[5] For I am thy slave and the son of thy maidservant,
a man who is weak and short-lived,
with little understanding of judgment and laws;
[6] for even if one is perfect among the sons of men,
yet without the wisdom that comes from thee
he will be regarded as nothing.[9] With thee is wisdom, who knows thy works
and was present when thou didst make the world,
and who understand what is pleasing in thy sight
and what is right according to thy commandments.
[10] Send her forth from the holy heavens,
and from the throne of thy glory send her,
that she may be with me and toil,
and that I may learn what is pleasing to thee.
[11] For she knows and understands all things,
and she will guide me wisely in my actions
and guard me with her glory.
[12] Then my works will be acceptable,
and I shall judge thy people justly,
and shall be worthy of the throne of my father.
[13] For what man can learn the counsel of God?
Or who can discern what the Lord wills?
[14] For the reasoning of mortals is worthless,
and our designs are likely to fail,
[15] for a perishable body weighs down the soul,
and this earthy tent burdens the thoughtful mind.
[16] We can hardly guess at what is on earth,
and what is at hand we find with labor;
but who has traced out what is in the heavens?
[17] Who has learned thy counsel, unless thou hast given wisdom
and sent thy holy Spirit from on high? ,
[18] And thus the paths of those on earth were set right,
and men were taught what pleases thee,
and were saved by wisdom. “Wisdom of Jesus Son of Sirach
Sirach 1
[1] All wisdom comes from the Lord
and is with him for ever.
[2] The sand of the sea, the drops of rain,
and the days of eternity — who can count them?
[3] The height of heaven, the breadth of the earth,
the abyss, and wisdom — who can search them out?
[4] Wisdom was created before all things,
and prudent understanding from eternity. “
[5] The root of wisdom — to whom has it been revealed?
Her clever devices — who knows them?
[6] There is One who is wise, greatly to be feared,
sitting upon his throne.
[7] The Lord himself created wisdom;
he saw her and apportioned her,
he poured her out upon all his works.
[8] She dwells with all flesh according to his gift,
and he supplied her to those who love him.Sirach 24
[1] Wisdom will praise herself,
and will glory in the midst of her people.
[2] In the assembly of the Most High she will open her mouth,
and in the presence of his host she will glory:
[3] “I came forth from the mouth of the Most High,
and covered the earth like a mist.
[4] I dwelt in high places,
and my throne was in a pillar of cloud.
[5] Alone I have made the circuit of the vault of heaven
and have walked in the depths of the abyss.
[6] In the waves of the sea, in the whole earth,
and in every people and nation I have gotten a possession.
[7] Among all these I sought a resting place;
I sought in whose territory I might lodge.[8] “Then the Creator of all things gave me a commandment,
and the one who created me assigned a place for my tent.
And he said, `Make your dwelling in Jacob,
and in Israel receive your inheritance.'
[9] From eternity, in the beginning, he created m
e,
and for eternity I shall not cease to exist.
[10] In the holy tabernacle I ministered before him,
and so I was established in Zion.
[11] In the beloved city likewise he gave me a resting place,
and in Jerusalem was my dominion.
[12] So I took root in an honored people,
in the portion of the Lord, who is their inheritance.[22] Whoever obeys me will not be put to shame,
and those who work with my help will not sin.”Can't copy the references now, but it appears that Irenaeus believed that Wisdom is the Holy Spirit and Yeshua was the Word. I will try to post some quotes later. It appears that Justin Martyr thought Word and Wisdom were the same, and that Yeshua and the Holy Spirit were the same.
Irenaeus also went on to say that there was but one God who created all things through His Word and Wisdom (Son and Holy Spirit). Wisdom and Word were “twins”. I can see where some people ran with theories like this to formulate the Trinity.
Kinda weird, but Irenaeus hints that all was created through the Word but was adorned by Wisdom. He also hints that this was the case with Yeshua: the Holy Spirit (Wisdom) and Mary provided Yeshua's body, and the Word inhabited the body.
Irenaeus' writings are somewhat fascinating. Justin Martyr's are less so because he seems to call Yeshua an Angel one time, the Word the next, and maybe something else another time. Irenaeus seems pretty consistent.
Ignatius seems too caught up in “church” business, particularly that of the early Catholic church.
Quote (kejonn @ July 21 2007,07:30) Can't copy the references now, but it appears that Irenaeus believed that Wisdom is the Holy Spirit and Yeshua was the Word. I will try to post some quotes later. It appears that Justin Martyr thought Word and Wisdom were the same, and that Yeshua and the Holy Spirit were the same. Irenaeus also went on to say that there was but one God who created all things through His Word and Wisdom (Son and Holy Spirit). Wisdom and Word were “twins”. I can see where some people ran with theories like this to formulate the Trinity.
Kinda weird, but Irenaeus hints that all was created through the Word but was adorned by Wisdom. He also hints that this was the case with Yeshua: the Holy Spirit (Wisdom) and Mary provided Yeshua's body, and the Word inhabited the body.
Irenaeus' writings are somewhat fascinating. Justin Martyr's are less so because he seems to call Yeshua an Angel one time, the Word the next, and maybe something else another time. Irenaeus seems pretty consistent.
Ignatius seems too caught up in “church” business, particularly that of the early Catholic church.
I may be mistaken but I think the Mormons believe Wisdom [SHE] is God's wife and of course Jesus their Son.Quote (kenrch @ July 21 2007,08:02)
I may be mistaken but I think the Mormons believe Wisdom [SHE] is God's wife and of course Jesus their Son.
Um, yeah.
Quote (kejonn @ July 22 2007,00:56) Quote (kenrch @ July 21 2007,08:02)
I may be mistaken but I think the Mormons believe Wisdom [SHE] is God's wife and of course Jesus their Son.
Um, yeah.
So in essence we really don't have just Father, Son, and Holy Spirit but Father, Mother, and Son?
Where DO people come up with some of these ideas
?Quote (kejonn @ July 22 2007,03:06) So in essence we really don't have just Father, Son, and Holy Spirit but Father, Mother, and Son? Where DO people come up with some of these ideas
?
From the prince of the power of the air.Hi Keyjonn
The reference to the sealed document sent by God is one of the great mysteries of the collection of the odes of solomon.
Showing that theology of today perhaps has neglected to take interest having decided to skip over the generation of the fathers and prophets, concerning the book of seals, at the time of the elected covernent deliver, that would then redeem souls back to God, by having prevailed himself, following the events and records left to us on earth, the adversity aims to obstructed the Knowledge, plans of the heavenly hosts on earth, till the end
1 Joy is of the saints! and who shall put it on, but they alone? 2 Grace is of the elect! and who shall receive it except those who trust in it from the beginning? 3 Love is of the elect? And who shall put it on except those who have possessed it from the beginning? 4 Walk ye in the knowledge of the Most High without grudging: to His exultation and to the perfection of His knowledge. 5 And His thought was like a letter; His will descended from on high, and it was sent like an arrow which is violently from the bow: 6 And many hands rushed to the letter to seize it and to take and read it: 7 And it escaped their fingers and they were affrighted at it and at the seal that was upon it. 8 Because it was not permitted to them to loose its seal: for the power that was over the seal was greater than they. 9 But those who saw it went after the letter that they might know where it would alight, and who should read it and who should hear it. 10 But a wheel received it and came over it: 11 And there was with it a sign of the Kingdom and of the Government: 12 And everything which tried to move the wheel it mowed and cut down: 13 And it gathered the multitude of adversaries, and bridged the rivers and crossed over and rooted up many forests and made a broad path. 14 The head went down to the feet for down to the feet ran the wheel, and that which was a sign upon it. 15 The letter was one of command, for there were included in it all districts; 16 And there was seen at its head, the head which was revealed even the Son of Truth from the Most High Father, 17 And He inherited and took possession of everything. And the thought of many was brought to nought. 18 And all the apostates hasted and fled away. And those who persecuted and were enraged became extinct, 19 And the letter was a great volume, which was wholly written by the finger of God: 20 And the name of the Father was on it and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, to rule for ever and ever. Hallelujah.
Rev 5:2
And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
Rev 5:5
And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
Rev 5:9
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;A beautiful description of the power of truth.
O to follow the ways of this Kingdom, that preserved and brought a haven of Salvation,set on High in the arms of immortal Life, by the discovery of his planting, A tree of rightousnessODE of Solomon
1 I went up to the light of truth as if into a chariot: 2 And the Truth took me and led me: and carried me across pits and gulleys; and from the rocks and the waves it preserved me: 3 And it became to me a haven of Salvation: and set me on the arms of immortal life: 4 And it went with me and made me rest, and suffered me not to wander because it was the Truth. 5 And I ran no risk, because I walked with Him; 5 And I did not make an error 4 anything because I obeyed the Truth. 7 For Error flees away from it and meets it not: but the Truth proceeds in the right path, and 8 What ever I did not know, it made clear to me, all the poisons of error, and the plagues of death which they think to be sweetness: 9 And I saw the destroyer of destruction, when the bride who is corrupted is adorned: and the bridgegroom who corrupts and is corrupted; 10 And I asked the Truth, 'Who are these?'; and He said to me, 'This is the deceiver and the error: 11 And they are alike in the beloved and in his bride: and they lead astray and corrupt the whole world: 12 And they invite many to the banquet, 13 And give them to drink of the wine of their intoxication, and remove their wisdom and knowledge, and so they make them without intelligence; 14 And then they leave them; and then these go about like madmen corrupting: seeing that they are with out heart, nor do they seek for it.' 15 And I was made wise so as not to fall into the hands of the deceiver; and I congratulated myself because the Truth went with me, 16 And I was established and lived and was redeemed, 17 And my foundations were laid on the hand of the Lord: because He established me. 18 For He set the root and watered it and fixed it and blessed it; and its fruits are for ever. 19 It struck deep and sprung up and spread out and was full and enlarged; 20 And the Lord alone was glorified in His planting and in His husbandry: by His care and by the blessing of His lips, 21 By the beautiful planting of His right hand: and by the discovery of His planting, and by the thought of His mind. Hallelujah.
The Odes of Solomon, the Son of David, are ended with the following exquisite verses.
“Becuase I was Alive”
yet More from a soul that liveth, and I went down with him
And I was not rejected though I was reckoned to be so.
I did not perish, though they devised it against me.
Sheol saw me and was made miserable:
Death cast me up and many along with me.
I had gall and bitterness,
and I went down with him to the utmost of his depth:
Behold the latter end of the Kingdom is greater than the start
rising to to thy Lot at the end of daysode of Solomon
1 I stretched out my hands and approached my Lord: 2 For the stretching of my hands is His sign: 2 My expansion is the outspread tree which was set up on the way of the Righteous One. 4 And I became of no account to those who did not take hold of me and I shall be with those who love me. 5 All my persecutors are dead; and they sought after me who hoped in me, because I was alive: 6 And I rose up and am with them; and I will speak by their mouths. 7 For they have despised those who persecuted them; 8 And I lifted up over them the yoke of my love; 9 Like the arm of the bridegroom over the bride, 10 So was my yoke over those that know me: 11 And as the couch that is spread in the house of the bridegroom and bride, 12 So is my love over those that believe in me. 13 And I was not rejected though I was reckoned to be so. 14 I did not perish, though they devised it against me. 13 Sheol saw me and was made miserable: 16 Death cast me up and many along with me. 17 I had gall and bitterness, and I went down with him to the utmost of his depth: 18 And the feet and the head he let go, for they were not able to endure my face: 19 And I made a congregation of living men amongst his dead men, and I spake with them by living lips: 20 Because my word shall not be void: 21 And those who had died ran towards me: and they cried and said, Son of God, have pity on us, and do with us according to thy kindness. 22 And bring us out from the bonds of darkness: and open to us the door by which we shall come out to thee. 23 For we see that our death has not touched thee. 24 Let us also be redeemed with thee: for thou art our Redeemer. 25 And I heard their voice; and my name I sealed upon their heads: 26 For they are free men and they are mine. Hallelujah.
Rev 1:18 I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
“Interesting to say the least Kjonn”
or
Least Interseting to say these book were removed from eyes to see, and ears that might hear, that we might come to the knowledge of the truth of salvation, and percieve the time of day we live within; that was once preached?
When has it ever been that the words of the Lord shall not be found, we have a new testerment and a the old at hand?sea to sea without
Amo 8:12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find [it]. In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.When shall we wonder who's names were not writen in the lambs book of Life from the beginning of the Kingdom come to the end off?
yep I have to many questions, not enough answers
charity
Charity The answer is Christ. Because of His sacrifice we have a gift from God by Faith in Christ Jesus our Lord. Eternal Life. Not by works so none would boasts.
I enjoyed reading about wisdom, the Book is some to behold.
Thank you for posting it.
Peace and Love Mrs.:D
Remarkable praise.
Ode of Solomon
I poured out praise to the Lord, for I am His:
And I will speak His holy song for my heart is with Him.
For His harp is in my hands, and the Odes of His rest shall not be silent.
I will cry unto him from my whole heart:
I will praise and exalt Him with all my members.
For from the east and even to the west is His praise:
And from the south and even to the north is the confession of Him:
And from the top of the hills to their utmost bound is His perfection.
Who can write the Psalms of the Lord, or who read them?
Or who can train his soul for life that his soul may be saved,
Or who can rest on the Most High, so that with His mouth he may speak?
Who is able to interpret the wonders of the Lord?
*For he who could interpret would be dissolved and would become that which is interpreted.*
For it suffices to know and to rest: for in rest the singers stand, Like a river which has an abundant fountain, and flows to the help of them that seek it. Hallelujah.Just another thought and scripture to consider with this ode quote of Solomon’s
Who is able to interpret the wonders of the Lord? For he who could interpret would be dissolved and would become that which is interpreted.
The first born among many, was dissolved in to becoming the words of the soul that he served
..Mat 12:18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.Hasanna In The Highest In hope and faith of the glorious truth of the nature of our transformation
charity
Wisdom from the Kingdom towards injustice.. charity to many souls, and the holy spirit of discipline will have nothing to do with falsehood
THE WISDOM OF SOLOMON
1 1 LOVE JUSTICE, you rulers of the earth; set your mind upon the 2 Lord, as is your duty, and seek him in simplicity of heart; for he is found by those who trust him without question, and makes himself 3 known to those who never doubt him. Dishonest thinking cuts men off from God, and if fools will take liberties with his power, he shows them 4 up for what they are. Wisdom will not enter a shifty soul, nor make her 5 home in a body that is mortgaged to sin. This holy spirit of discipline will have nothing to do with falsehood; she cannot stay in the presence of unreason, 6 and will throw up her case at the approach of injustice. Wisdom is spirit devoted to man's good, and she will not hold a blasphemer blameless for his words, because God is a witness of his inmost being, who sees 7 clear into his heart and hears every word he says. For the spirit of the Lord fills the whole earth, and that which holds all things together is well aware 8 of what men say. Hence no man can utter injustice and not be found out, 9 nor will justice overlook him when she passes sentence. The devices of a godless man will be brought to account, and a report of his words will come 10 before the Lord as proof of his iniquity; no muttered syllable escapes that 11 vigilant ear. Beware, then, of futile grumbling, and avoid all bitter words; for even a secret whisper will not go unheeded, and a lying tongue is a 12 man's destruction. Do not stray from the path of life and so court death; 13 do not draw disaster on yourselves by your own actions. For God did not make death, and takes no pleasure in the destruction of any living thing; 14 he created all things that they might have being. The creative forces of the world make for life; there is no deadly poison in them. Death is not king on 15 16 earth, for justice is immortal; but godless men by their words and deeds have asked death for his company. Thinking him their friend, they have made a pact with him because they are fit members of his party; and so they have wasted away.
A vigorous little Ode from solomons colection
Writen at the beginning of the Kingdom set up.
A true Son Of God Having swallowed up and prevailed over the power of death in all obedience within a heavenly Haven1 The Lord hath directed my mouth by His word: and He hath opened my heart by His light: and He hath caused to dwell in me His deathless life; 2 And gave me that I might speak the fruit peace: 3 To convert the souls of them who are willing to come to Him; and to lead captive a good captivity for freedom. 4 I was strengthened and made mighty and took the world captive; 5 And it became to me for the praise of the Most High, and of God my Father. 6 And the Gentiles were gathered together who were scattered abroad. 7 And I was unpolluted by my love for them, because they confessed me in high places: and the traces of the light were set upon their heart: 8 And they walked in my life and were saved and be came my people for ever and ever. Hallelujah.
May the Lord comfort and prepared the saints in his Identity that it shall be revealed and those that follow after him at his coming
Hosanna In the Highest
everlasting Amen
Charity,
I know this is my ignorance showing, but oh well (ha), what is this book of Solomon that you are quoting from? I wonder where I could get a copy? I'll look online tonight. I'm loving it!Quote (charity @ Sep. 14 2007,16:38) I hope this works Mandy? http://www.carm.org/lost/solomonodes.htm
selah
Ah, yes! Got it…thanks so much.
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