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Quote (Stu @ Oct. 26 2007,19:39) eternal life would be like music that never comes to a final resolving chord, it would mean that all of life (whatever it is) would lose the meaning and urgency that a final death gives it.
Oh, it would be so lovely for eternal life to be like music that never ended! I love music and it has been a huge part of my life (I've sang professionally in the past, and traveled with a band for many years when I was in my 20's). So when you say the music never ends…..that sounds like the perfect kind of eternal life for me!
A little girl asks her Daddy, “Daddy, why do people have to die?” He replies, “To make life more important.”
I don't believe an eternal life would diminish this life at all. In fact there is freedom knowing that this is not all there is. Don't get me wrong, I love this good ol' world. Some would call me an Environmentalist; I farm, recycle, live as organically as possible, mind our septic system and our little eco world……. But I love the Creator of this world more than I love what he created. This life is rich, but temporary. I live it to the fullest with as little regrets as possible, but I look forward to being with my Lord, and my Father. Even if there is no here-after, it would have been worth it to have them in my life in the here-and-now!
Hi,
Quote The difference is the contents of a text book will change over time as new knowledge comes to light. The bible hasn’t, and is now factually out-of-date (unless you bend it with extreme interpretation).
Assuming that at one point the Bible was current and factual?
The Bible is unlike any other textbook in that it is the living word of God. It “changes” and remains ever current because our God relates to all his children in every generation and culture. I've been reading the Bible now for 30 years, and I can tell you that it has “changed” over the course of those years. I can read the same chapter one year of my life and get current help and direction. I can read the same chapter many years later, and receive different help and direction. This is living, life-changing words.
Quote I think it is very much human nature to attempt to subconsciously calculate (sometimes badly) likelihoods based on past experience.
And yet you are doing the very same thing when you assume you will rise in the morning.Quote I think very little, or indeed nothing is done on faith alone, except tarot cards, astrology and religion.
This topic is interesting to me because some things that are predicted fom Tarot cards come true! You might remember that the magicians also turned their rods into snakes (as Moses did under the instruction of the LORD). Faith is a seperate issue from the very real powers of the god of this world. As you said, that is another subject.Quote I don’t think I ever believed any of it to begin with.
You know so much of the scriptures, may I ask how you have accumulated this knowledge if you have never believed any of it? It would be like me studying about the tooth fairy (I don't believe she is real) and spending time talking about her – I wouldnt' do it. Yet you have studied the Bible and are familiar with it's contents, as well as spending time here on a Christian site. Look at the number of posts you have and tell me if that is someone who has never believed “any of it” before? I imagine that the important word here is “think” as you say, “I don't THINK I ever believed…..” so you are not sure. That's great, Stu. I'm not sure about a lot of things either. That's why I'm here, and that is why I investigate things you present in a respectful manner. But let's remember that there is a “mystery” factor to this life that cannot be proven or searched out. I believe that factor is God. We may not understand everything (including why there are murder's, why we feel homosexual drives when they are clearly condemned, why Creation is not more clearly scientifically proven and so on), but we must at least wonder about it all. We must at least reserve our judgement until we are completely convinced.Have a wonderful weekend,
MandyQuote (IM4Truth @ Oct. 26 2007,23:32) Stuart Time really goes fast, you might not think so right now, believe me life is just a vapor. And then you have no hope for nothing, that is rather sad. And I said it before I feel really sorry for you. Why take the chance? Would you rather be dead then alive in the future. To me it makes no sense. I will keep on praying for you and others on this website it sure is needed. Bless you
Peace and Love Mrs..
Hi MrsIM4TruthYou're sort of giving me Pascal's Wager as well. Just as you have made your choices, I have chosen to ignore the egocentric and anti-human practices of christianity and try to do my best to live life to the full for my own happiness and for the happiness of others on the planet. How can anyone afford not to? – there is no guarantee that there is any kind of afterlife at all. There certainly is no evidence for one. This does not mean one should go round behaving unethically, it just means not wasting valuable lifetime on ones knees praying, or pondering the nth degree of scipture that will allow access to the fantasy land beyond. “Do good now” is the motto!
Life certainly does go fast – and faster the older one gets. It is worth taking a moment to consider the fact that you have not existed for most of the eternity that has already passed. Why should it be a worry not to exist again in the eternity of the future? It is an astonishing thing to have been born human at all.
Stuart
Hi Not3in1
Thanks for your considered responses.
I think the point about never-ending music is that on a professional gig, you could not just sing verse after verse of the same song all night. No matter how creative you were, by 11pm all those still listening would have fallen asleep or become utterly sick of it. They would yearn for a final chord that completed the form of the music and allowed it to be a meaningful act of musical communication. Music with an ending may or may not have meaning – music without an end has no musical meaning.
Have you imagined the kind of afterlife for which you might hope? Is it a “place” where everyone whose application was successful now have an existence? Do all the deceased Popes live on the same street? Imagine the arguments! Our culture works on the generational principle that parents grow old and pass on so that their children then their grandchildren may occupy the inherited world and find their own ways to move on. This structure must be vastly different in heaven if it is the kind of cartoon creation portrayed by some christians. Incidentally, the mythological world of humans living hundreds of years would have had a similar effect on such a society.
++”A little girl asks her Daddy, “Daddy, why do people have to die?” He replies, “To make life more important.” I don't believe an eternal life would diminish this life at all. In fact there is freedom knowing that this is not all there is.
If you’re going to have literally an eternity (as long as you pass the test), why bother getting up in the morning? There will always be another morning for you to get up. With the “death gives meaning” argument, I don’t think of it in that order – it is more straightforward than that – you are going to die, and that will be it. (a) deal with it (b) see it in the light that this is your one chance to do what humans do so go for it because you’re a long time dead, and don’t forget your were a long time not here BEFORE now as well. Your atoms were here before you and they go on, and this might apply to your genes as well. Immortality is in the memories of those around you.
Stuart
Hi Not3in1
++”…Assuming that at one point the Bible was current and factual?
Yes, good point. There is quite a lot of disagreement on that within this forum. One attraction I have for science is that it works and pretty quickly knows why. Science converges on models that represent the truth better and better. The more the bible is studied, the more the interpretations (and churches) diverge. Most science schisms are temporary. Most religious ones are permanent , ingrained and the cause of much angst. You could define factual as “correct according to our current best knowledge” and this is what science claims too.
++”The Bible is unlike any other textbook in that it is the living word of God. It “changes” and remains ever current because our God relates to all his children in every generation and culture
So you are saying that you interpret verses in the context in which you find yourself at different times in your life. The same can be said for tarot cards and astrology as well. It can’t be said for a science textbook nearly as easily.
++”This topic is interesting to me because some things that are predicted fom Tarot cards come true! You might remember that the magicians also turned their rods into snakes (as Moses did under the instruction of the LORD). Faith is a seperate issue from the very real powers of the god of this world. As you said, that is another subject.
Don’t forget that tarot card readers and astrologers are in the business of making money from making such broad and non-specific predictions (like most biblical prophecy) that you would be surprised if some did not “come true”. One-on-one, a tarot card reader is also likely to be using such techniques as cold reading, in which they fish for relevance and then use common sense and some knowledge of human nature to make “predictions”.
It is OK that Moses did magic “under the instruction of the lord”? Deuteronomy might not think so:
Dt.18:10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
18:11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. 18:12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.God is allowed to play with magic but not humans. Isn’t that hypocrisy?
Stuart
Hi again Not3in1
Quote
I don’t think I ever believed any of it to begin with.++”You know so much of the scriptures, may I ask how you have accumulated this knowledge if you have never believed any of it?
Once, years ago, watching an episode of Mastermind on TV I scored more points than the contestant on his specialist topic “The Goon Show”. That doesn’t mean I expect to meet Spike Milligan’s fictional characters any time soon!
++” I imagine that the important word here is “think” as you say, “I don't THINK I ever believed…..” so you are not sure.
Hmm. A figure of speech? Let me rephrase: I can’t remember a time when I ever believed a single one of the extraordinary and baseless claims made in the bible. Of course I do believe in what you call the Golden Rule.
++”That's great, Stu. I'm not sure about a lot of things either. That's why I'm here, and that is why I investigate things you present in a respectful manner. But let's remember that there is a “mystery” factor to this life that cannot be proven or searched out. I believe that factor is God.
The kind of god described here has no explanatory power, leaves no evidence of his actions and is only known by personal anecdote (I include all scripture in that). You are dangerously close here to the “god of the gaps”, a shrinking and temporary placeholder for our ignorance. You save it by saying that we can never know these things. I personally couldn’t agree with this interpretation.
++”We may not understand everything
…definitely agree…
++”including why there are murder's,
…definitely disagree…this is becoming easier and easier to know
++”why we feel homosexual drives when they are clearly condemned,
…”it is an abomination” is a cop out par excellence from the Hypocritical One.
What an abject failing of the compassion and humanity of the whole christian belief industry that not only is Leviticus parroted mindlessly when the subject of homosexuality is raised, but that there seems to be no interest in knowing more about how sexuality works. The fairies in my garden condemn the behaviours of all christians as an abomination. They won’t tell me why. Do you see the parallel?++”why Creation is not more clearly scientifically proven and so on),
Creation has no basis in science whatever. This forum has already established that by the deafening silence on all points of evidence made in response to t8’s evolution thread. There is NO scientific theory of creation. The evidence is very well explained by the theories proposed by science. Like all science, you don’t have to believe me. The evidence speaks for itself.
++”but we must at least wonder about it all. We must at least reserve our judgement until we are completely convinced.
So WHY then do you insist on leaping headlong into believing creationism? You can hardly call that argument convincing.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Oct. 27 2007,08:51) So WHY then do you insist on leaping headlong into believing creationism?
Hi Stu,When I read your posts sometimes I think that you and I would make very good friends on the “outside”.
As I have shared before, one of my best girlfriends is an evolutionist (for lack of a better way to describe what she has in common with you), she is also an intellect and open to discuss things that she doesn't necessarily agree with. I dig this about her. We are mutually attracted to one another (very much like an odd-couple), but it is because of our differences that the magnet of attraction grows.Regarding your question above, I guess I have to say that I have weighed the options and I prefer believing creation versus evolution. In my opinion, they both require a leap of faith. Alison agrees that this is true, God bless her.
Plus, here's the thing, I've had experiences with God Almighty. Here is where personal testimony kicks the butt of any “evidence” given that there is no God. It is in this arena of personal experience that usually Alison and I decide that it is a personal choice to either accept science and their explainations to you, or to accept God's gifts and miracles in your life.
There are some “restrictions” in beleiving God. But I ask you, if you are a parent, do you not have restrictions for your children? I know that I do. For instance, my children are under the age of 10 and they are not allowed to use the Internet unless I am supervising and helping them with school projects. They are simply not old enough, in my opinon, to handle the Internet. I also do not allow my children to watch TV after dinner because primetime TV is not suitable for children, again this is my opinion. I am the parent and I am making what I believe are healthy choices for my children. They need me to watch out for them and to protect them. God is the same way.
The Bible tells us that everything is permissible, but is it beneficial? Why does God condemn, for instance, homosexuality? Could it be that it is not beneficial for us? Could it be that when you are free to do what you feel and desire that it could bring problems into your life? Let me choose the topic of homosexuality for a minute because I've had some experience with this area. A college friend said she was in love with me, and to be honest, I could have allowed myself to love her too. We had been friends since Jr. High and grown to care about one another very much. Would that have been beneficial for me? No. Would I have enjoyed following my feelings? Yup. Would I have the commitment, family, home and life that I have now had I followed that path? Probably not. Most homosexuals that I know do not stay in comitted relationships. There are a few that committ and have more years together than heterosexual couples, but statistics have shown that this is the exception rather than the rule.
So what am I saying? Could it be possible that God condemns behaviors that might come “naturally” to some because it is harmful to them? I believe this is the correct way to view at this. Besides, those that say they are only gay and were born that way are full of it. If you were to stick two soley gay men on different private islands, each with a female……they would be mating in no time!
I may be speaking out of ignorance here, but I'm close.Too often people will use homosexuality as a watershed topic for believing in a Creator, and this is really too bad. I believe much light can be shed on the topic if one was to give God a chance to speak to their hearts.
So…why…uhm…are you here trying to argue to a people that believe in GOD…that hes non-existent? I mean…this just does not prove to be very productive for a man of your obvious intellect.
Surely, you know that nothing you say can convince me that there is no GOD. I would assume that most of the people that are here firmly believe the same way…they may not all have the same EXACT belief…but they do all believe in the fact that there is ONE GOD THAT DOES EXIST….and I doubt there is very much your going to say to convince them other wise.
I mean are you just like super bored or something?
Hi again Not3in1
++”… I have weighed the options and I prefer believing creation versus evolution. In my opinion, they both require a leap of faith. Alison agrees that this is true, God bless her.
Your friend is wrong. Science requires no leap of faith. Either there is a model that fits the evidence, or the answer is “we don’t know”. Ignorance is not an argument for superstition.
++” personal testimony kicks the butt of any “evidence” given that there is no God.
Personal testimony has no credibility in science. Even in most judicial systems personal testimony is put under great scrutiny and compared to physical evidence.
++” It is in this arena of personal experience that usually Alison and I decide that it is a personal choice to either accept science and their explanations to you, or to accept God's gifts and miracles in your life.
Yes, you can accept what explanation you like, but if you want respect for your views you need to show equivalent respect for the Flying Spaghetti Monster creation myth. It has the same basis as the Judeo-Christian one.
++”The Bible tells us that everything is permissible, but is it beneficial? Why does God condemn, for instance, homosexuality?
Because he is a brutal dictator with a malevolent delight in the suffering of his creations?
++”Could it be that when you are free to do what you feel and desire that it could bring problems into your life? Let me choose the topic of homosexuality for a minute because I've had some experience with this area. A college friend said she was in love with me, and to be honest, I could have allowed myself to love her too. We had been friends since Jr. High and grown to care about one another very much. Would that have been beneficial for me? No. Would I have enjoyed following my feelings? Yup. Would I have the commitment, family, home and life that I have now had I followed that path? Probably not. Most homosexuals that I know do not stay in comitted relationships. There are a few that committ and have more years together than heterosexual couples, but statistics have shown that this is the exception rather than the rule.
If it is not for you then fine. It is for other people and I imagine they resent being told that their private lives are an abomination. I think christianity is a perversion. What is the difference between those claims? All I can say is that I was under the impression you had some curiosity about the world. Does it not occur to you that it is fascinating that we need heterosexual breeding couples to continue the species yet homosexuality is present in all cultures and most animal species? Yet here you are apologising for Leviticus. What business of yours is it that homosexual couples have a loving private relationship of whatever duration or quality?
Stuart
Quote (Samuel @ Oct. 27 2007,11:40) So…why…uhm…are you here trying to argue to a people that believe in GOD…that hes non-existent? I mean…this just does not prove to be very productive for a man of your obvious intellect. Surely, you know that nothing you say can convince me that there is no GOD. I would assume that most of the people that are here firmly believe the same way…they may not all have the same EXACT belief…but they do all believe in the fact that there is ONE GOD THAT DOES EXIST….and I doubt there is very much your going to say to convince them other wise.
I mean are you just like super bored or something?
Hi SamuelIt is very kind of you to compliment me, but probably not very interesting to wonder about my motivations for posting here. I have bored enough people with that story already.
It is far from my purpose to convince you of the non-existence of your deity. I cannot disprove it, just as you cannot prove it, and I resent it when the devout try in their usually cloying and ham-fisted way to convert me.
I do believe in truth and I think it is important that you have the maximum knowledge about what you believe. For example, some people believe that the creation story has some scientific basis. They are wrong, and the portal pages for this website are wrong for that reason too. If it could be demonstrated that the bible was more often than not factually wrong, what would your response be?
Stuart
I have to ask you a question, Stu. Is there even a slightest marginal chance that you may believe in the TRUTH of GOD and his WORD someday? I realize all too well that we are all “in a jam” in a way trying to convince one another of our own personal beliefs: Ours and Yours, and that I'm still searching for that something to help bring you to faith – as are others on this site – as I'm sure you're at work trying to convince us that our belief in God is “unsubstantial”. Still, the best thing for an atheist and/or an evolutionist is a first-hand experience of God's existance. I may just say a prayer that he will reveal himself to you in his way that would be of best conviction to you and your understanding. Well, peace Stu!
Quote (acertainchap @ Oct. 28 2007,17:02) I have to ask you a question, Stu. Is there even a slightest marginal chance that you may believe in the TRUTH of GOD and his WORD someday? I realize all too well that we are all “in a jam” in a way trying to convince one another of our own personal beliefs: Ours and Yours, and that I'm still searching for that something to help bring you to faith – as are others on this site – as I'm sure you're at work trying to convince us that our belief in God is “unsubstantial”. Still, the best thing for an atheist and/or an evolutionist is a first-hand experience of God's existance. I may just say a prayer that he will reveal himself to you in his way that would be of best conviction to you and your understanding. Well, peace Stu!
Thanks acertainchap. I think the word you mean is “insubstantial”?I hope against hope that the fairies at the bottom of my garden will speak to you of the mystery of their existence and their plan for you. If only you could hear what they have to say, maybe you could have fairy faith like me.
Stuart
Stu,
I see that I have struck a chord in you; passion mixed with anger lace your last post to me…… At last we are at the heart of the matter.
Of course I am curious about this amazing world we inhabit and temporarily possess. My mother used to tell me that I was so curious as a child that one day it would catch-up with me! I heard phrases like, “Curiosity killed the cat.” and so on. Well, no cat has ever died because I investigate; research, pray, learn other religions, and leave most orthodox traditions behind. What has happened is that I have gained compassion and understanding of people like you, people like my friend Alison, and people like me (sometimes caught between beliefs). Tolerance for the flesh and it's mighty pull. Out of my curiosity has also come some grief, especially when I see that God's love has been exchanged for a voting ballot, upon which if you believe that God is against homosexuals, you don't vote for him. It's not that tidy.
Stu, I believe everyone has a right to be, and to be loved. I respect all of my friends (of which, some are gay). I implore you to look beyond what you deem negative about God (the murders and so on), and try to see something different. Perhaps you will find that God loves you for who you are. Perhaps he will explain to you why there were so many murder's, and why he does what he does. It is an awesome thing for God to take you into his confidence!
If you believe that the fairies at the bottom of your garden hold the keys to life, or at least have some answers to soothe your soul, then why are you not talking to them instead of logging time here on a Christian site? If God is one that you find so disgusting, why are you here? You puzzle me, Stu. You can't be here to win converts? You said you weren't here to save us! Could it be you are here to convince yourself that what you believe is true? Could it be that you were waiting for someone to give you that reason (like God condemns homosexuality) to assure yourself that you are indeed correct to believe that God is unloving?
God loves you, Stu. Whether you believe he does or not, it does not change the fact that he does. Whether you believe in him or not, does not change the fact that he is. Evidence and proof are only as good as ink on paper. Were you there when the first organisms were brought to life? Were you there when the earth was formed? Then pray tell, how do you know it happened exactly like the books tell you did? You have faith in science and so you believe what is written. I have faith in God and I believe what cannot be seen. We are two creatures who are not very different from one another, really. I reach out to you in friendship and pray that your hurts will be tended to by a loving God. I pray that answers will come your way, and that God will reveal himself to you in such a way that he cannot be denied.
Much love to you, Stu.
MandyThis is one definition of a FACT: something known to exist or to have happened.
Science is based on facts. But I ask you, how do scientist know for a “fact” that the world and all it's life were not formed/created by a God (Creator)? In other words, God could have caused the “big bang” for all we know. God could have put this process in motion and began evolution on it's course. Who knows for sure, or can say that our beginnings are based on true “facts”?
Hi Not3in1
++”Of course I am curious about this amazing world we inhabit and temporarily possess.
I thought so. (I don’t think we possess the world – microorganisms are the real owners!) Do you wonder about why the animal kingdom displays the same varieties of sexuality as our species? How do you square that curious thing with the one-dimensional and absurd pronouncements of the OT? On behalf of the Murderous One, you state his condemnation of gay people. Do you stone adulterers too? I think you don’t and therefore I am surprised when the devout cherry-pick which bits of scripture they will obey.
++”Out of my curiosity has also come some grief, especially when I see that God's love has been exchanged for a voting ballot, upon which if you believe that God is against homosexuals, you don't vote for him. It's not that tidy.
The bible is a mythological work of historical fiction and sadly some of it causes pain because of the mental slavery projected onto others by some christians. What ever happened to “judge not…”? That’s a good reason to “not vote for it”.
++” I implore you to look beyond what you deem negative about God (the murders and so on), and try to see something different. Perhaps you will find that God loves you for who you are. Perhaps he will explain to you why there were so many murder's, and why he does what he does. It is an awesome thing for God to take you into his confidence! God loves you, Stu. Whether you believe he does or not, it does not change the fact that he does.
Like I say, all the misery caused by religion is actually caused by people. Let's pretend there are supernatural beings for a minute. Maybe it is a christian “act” to befriend convicted criminals. Here is one supernatural character that, were he to exist, should be convicted of the most extensive genocides (plural!) in all history, and you want me to get to know him because he loves me? You’ll forgive me I hope for being somewhat reluctant!
++”Whether you believe in him or not, does not change the fact that he is.
Nor does your belief in him make his existence any more likely.
++”Evidence and proof are only as good as ink on paper. Were you there when the first organisms were brought to life? Were you there when the earth was formed? Then pray tell, how do you know it happened exactly like the books tell you did? You have faith in science and so you believe what is written.
Not3in1 we’ve been through this already. If you assert that trust in the scientific method is faith then you are being dishonest with the definition of the word faith. I assume you understand the basic principles of forensic science – the police were not in the room when the murder was committed, yet the facts of the case are able to be determined. I believe in the truth that comes simply from observing and making the simplest conclusions, whatever they may be. Zeus is not a simple conclusion, but many have thought that the best one. How do you know they were wrong and you are not misled?
++” I have faith in God and I believe what cannot be seen. We are two creatures who are not very different from one another, really.
I’m afraid that we are very different. I have no use for superstition and magic. My universe does not have room for human egocentricism and a special relationship with a being of dubious probity as the explaining principle. I seek real truth, and time and again the claimed truths of the religious shatter into dust in the face of even half-rigorous testing. To then make a special pleading for the value of a relationship with god just leaves me cold. All my experience tells me that the world just isn’t like that.
++”I reach out to you in friendship and pray that your hurts will be tended to by a loving God. I pray that answers will come your way, and that God will reveal himself to you in such a way that he cannot be denied.
I appreciate your outreach. Communication from a god would be fascinating. What do you recommend in the event that Baal is the god that speaks to me?
Take care,
Stuart
++”This is one definition of a FACT: something known to exist or to have happened.
Science is based on facts. But I ask you, how do scientist know for a “fact” that the world and all it's life were not formed/created by a God (Creator)? In other words, God could have caused the “big bang” for all we know. God could have put this process in motion and began evolution on it's course. Who knows for sure, or can say that our beginnings are based on true “facts”?Science does not deal in certainty. Religion claims to, and claims that science does too. It is wrong on both counts. To add a god to the Theories of the Big Bang and Evolution by Natural Selection is to add complexity without adding explaining power. The net result would be a useless theory. Have you considered what the Theory of Divine Creation actually says, and how it is falsifiable and what predictions it makes? It is not science because it fails on these (and many other) points. Why settle for the broken-down rusty motorbike non-explanation of Genesis when you can have the Rolls-Royce Silver Shadow explanation provided by science?!
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Oct. 28 2007,23:45) “Why settle for the broken-down rusty motorbike non-explanation of Genesis when you can have the Rolls-Royce Silver Shadow explanation provided by science?!” Stuart
I have a more important question for you: Why not?Quote (acertainchap @ Oct. 29 2007,04:51) Quote (Stu @ Oct. 28 2007,23:45) “Why settle for the broken-down rusty motorbike non-explanation of Genesis when you can have the Rolls-Royce Silver Shadow explanation provided by science?!” Stuart
I have a more important question for you: Why not?
Hi acertainchapDo you have a Theory of Divine Creation, complete with the details that science is typically able to give, and with falsifying criteria and maybe some predictions that the theory makes?
Stuart
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