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Hi David, Eliyah and BrandonIke.
Ive been reading your exchanges over the last week or so and have mulled it over and now formed some thoughts of my own.Eliyah, first of all – no hard feelings mate. I only decided to enter the fray when I saw you starting to intimate that all elements of paganism must be eliminated in order cease being an idolator (“a little leaven”, “no such thing as a little paganism”….). To me that smacked of pharisaical legalism. It also struck me as an unfairly-heavy load to confer to others – and the only real chance you would have to achieve it would be to isolate yourself from the world. Then we essentially become 'decommissioned' in our work for the kingdom. You see this sad reality in many of the cults and sects with isolationist mentalities in their futile attempt to not become inoculated by the world. Where is their witness? absent. Are they salt and light? No. The JWs understand this concept well, right David?
Eliyah, you seem to have softened your stance on this though – and this is to your credit. BTW, I thought it was actually quite funny when you called me a “scuss bucket”, such an quaint atavism, almost like being insulted in a cartoony kind of way.
Anyway I have to say after reading biblical arguments I think David has raised enough points to show that, at best, you are drawing a long bow in your assertion that these titles are derived from pagan deities, so I won't further complicate that one, other than to say I havent seen any solid evidence yet.
I want to approach it from another angle. My first thought when considering the prospect that I had blasphemed every time I had used the names God, Lord, Jesus… was that why has the Holy Spirit not convicted me (or 2 billion other christians for that matter) of this sin? It didn't add up, then I started to ask myself:
Why has God answered many prayers when I asked in “Jesus name”?
Why have people under the influence of the Holy Spirit used these names if they were detestable to God?
How is it that the brothers and sisters in Christ that I most respect and who are obviously sealed by the Spirit (and whose fruit is obvious) use these names? and frequently?
Speaking from experience I have found myself in some scarey supernatural situations and my first instinct was to call upon the name of Jesus, and I was immediately rescued. There is power in the name of “Jesus”, I know because i have witnessed it up close and personal and have read, watched and seen many other examples of people using the name of Jesus with awesome authority. Demons are cast out in Jesus' name, and a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand, can it? On that evidence alone the name Jesus cannot possibly be evil in any sense.
So Eliyah, have you had prayers answered when you asked in Jesus' name?
I have some other thoughts but don't have time right now to recount them all.
Be well.
I've looked through this stuff for awhile now. It's the love that matters. If we seek the Kingdom God, the rest will be added to us.
I agree with you Is. If words like “God” and “Jesus” were evil, then why have our prayers been answered? One might argue it's the Anti-Christ, but from what I understand, signs and wonders are very different from answered prayers and delivered.
Eliyah, it may be an unintentional mistake, or just the fact that I cant hear your tone, but your posts have this form of FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt). There is no fear in love (1 John 4:18).
Hi Bob,
I agree. It is our love and not our head knowledge that will identify us as belonging to Christ.I Cor 13
2If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.Is 1:18 ,
I was not meaning that idiom to harm your personal charactor, but i was meaning it as because you never ONCE answered my questions( and I answered yours), and you still have not either.
You stated “”
Quote Anyway I have to say after reading biblical arguments I think David has raised enough points to show that, at best, you are drawing a long bow in your assertion that these titles are derived from pagan deities, so I won't further complicate that one, other than to say I havent seen any solid evidence yet IF you can't SEE the evidence yet( In all my posts) concerning this pagan word and the true names, which also BrandonIke has also shown to be true on here, then that “” VEIL “” on your face must be so thick ( Read 2 Cor.4:4) by the ” g-d ” of this world that it is enormous.
You also said, “”
Quote I want to approach it from another angle. My first thought when considering the prospect that I had blasphemed every time I had used the names God, Lord, Jesus… was that why has the Holy Spirit not convicted me (or 2 billion other christians for that matter) of this sin? It didn't add up, then I started to ask myself: Why has God answered many prayers when I asked in “Jesus name”?
Why have people under the influence of the Holy Spirit used these names if they were detestable to God?
How is it that the brothers and sisters in Christ that I most respect and who are obviously sealed by the Spirit (and whose fruit is obvious) use these names? and frequently? Speaking from experience I have found myself in some scarey supernatural situations and my first instinct was to call upon the name of Jesus, and I was immediately rescued. There is power in the name of “Jesus”, I know because i have witnessed it up close and personal and have read, watched and seen many other examples of people using the name of Jesus with awesome authority. Demons are cast out in Jesus' name, and a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand, can it?
Sir, you seem to ignor the MANY MANY scriptures that reveal that it is THE MANY MANY people who are deceived and NOT the few( Matt.24:5; Matt.24:24; Rev.12:9), and it is those billions as you call it, that do not receive the love the truth enough to search it out( 2 Thess. 2:10), and whose names are not written in the Lambs book of life( Rev.13:8) which in fact are worshipping satan the devil( Rev.9:20; Rev.13:3-4,8) through his deception( Rev.12:9) in the end times.
And it is a FACT that traditional christianity in indeed “” DIVIDED “”, and there are also several scriptures that reveal that in the end times, they would be working wonders and MIRACLES in a false Messiah's name( Matt.24:24; Rev.13:14; Rev.16:14; Rev.19:20).
However, Yah looks on the heart or mind of honest people who are ignorant because of false modern day prophets teachings, and He even winks at such ignorance at times( Acts 17:30), but when the truth is revealed to people, and they choose to be WILFULLY IGNORANT of such truth will receive Yah's Wrath upon them.
I have NOT soften my stance as you call it, but evidently you NEVER carefully read my Article concerning the IMPORTANCE OF YAHWEH'S NAME, which I advise that you re-read it, and notice the Great cloud of witnesses that will be against you in the end concerning this matter.
Otherwise, how could satan the devil deceive the whole world's inhabbitance of people into worshipping him( Rev.9:20; Rev.13:3-4, 8) through his deception ( Rev.12:9)??
The choice is yours tho. whom you choose to worship and serve, whether the TRUE FATHER YAH( Psalms 68:4; John 17:11), or the false ” father “( John 8:44) satan the devil ??
Eliyah C. still on the net!
Sorry Mr. Bob I didn't see your post till now.
You said “”
Quote I've looked through this stuff for awhile now. It's the love that matters. If we seek the Kingdom God, the rest will be added to us. I agree with you Is. If words like “God” and “Jesus” were evil, then why have our prayers been answered? One might argue it's the Anti-Christ, but from what I understand, signs and wonders are very different from answered prayers and delivered.
Eliyah, it may be an unintentional mistake, or just the fact that I cant hear your tone, but your posts have this form of FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt). There is no fear in love (1 John 4:18).
You said “”
Quote but from what I( Bob) understand, That's the very point, its what YOU understand, rather than what Yah and the scriptures understands and explains and matters to us.
I've learned a long time ago, to not lean upon my OWN understanding, because my OWN understanding does not mean a thing, but it is Yah and His words of understanding that means everything, and either we do His ways, or it is NO WAY.
I give you the same advice that I gave ( IS 1:18) in the post above to do, better re-read my Article on the importance of Yahweh's Name.
Thanks,
Eliyah C.
When the United Nations declared 1986 to be the “International Year of Peace,” the pope responded by inviting representatives of the world’s major religions to participate in a celebration of the “World Day of Prayer for Peace.” In October 1986, representatives of Buddhist, Hindu, Islamic, Shinto, Anglican, Lutheran, Greek Orthodox, Jewish, and other faiths sat together in Assisi, Italy, and took turns praying for world peace. Of course, Jehovah's Witnesses weren't there. (John 15:19; 18:36)
They all prayed for peace, some Buddhist monks for as long as 12 hours in one day. But to whom did they pray? Was it to Mary? Or to Christendom’s holy Trinity? Or to the Hindu trinity? Or to the thousands of gods of Buddhism? Or to Allah? Or to that lowly animal, the fox, that Shintoists worship? Or were the most acceptable prayers those of an American Indian of the Crow tribe? He was reported to be ‘glorious in a majestic headdress,’ while he lit a pipe of peace and uttered his prayers “into the smoke as it rose like incense in the cold air.”
One thing is certain: Not one of those religionists, from Buddhism’s Dalai Lama to “His Eminence” Methodius of the Greek Orthodox Church, subscribes to the Bible’s words at Micah 4:5:
“We, for our part, shall walk in the name of Jehovah our God to time indefinite, even forever.”Their efforts were in vain, judging by the millions killed in the wars of that year and in the years since. During the celebration of the United Nations International Year of Peace in 1986, the world experienced 37 armed conflicts, more than at any time since the end of World War II.
And what about the following year? Did the prayers of all the world's major religions have any success?
Ruth L. Sivard reported:
“Twenty-two wars were underway in 1987, more wars than in any previous year in recorded history. The total death toll in these wars so far is at least 2,200,000—and rising fast.” (World Military and Social Expenditures 1987-88.)Their prayers of the leaders of the world's religions went unanswered.
David, that is one reason WHY I asked the question before, of..
“”
Quote Is it ok to apply the Muslim deity of “” Alah “” to the scriptural YHWH= Yah? The world practices Idolatry by “” syncretisim “”, and YHWH= Yah will not accept such worship of applying other nation's deities to Him, He plainly says so.
That's like a modern sodomite( qeer) that KNOWS its an abomination to the true Creator Yah to practice such things, and yet they think its still ok, and keep praying and worshipping in that kind of lifestyle, and they don't want to repent and stop it.
Does YHWH=Yah accept such worship, when a person KNOWS the truth and refuses to repent and stop such things?
Eliyah,
Actually I did start answering your questions but then you started losing it so I saw little chance of a meaningful and productive exhange with you. Maybe if you can learn to control your temper I might go back and look at them again.BTW, there are some questions I asked you for a yes or no answer, but only got evasion.
Is 1:18 ,
You never attempted to answer any of my questions, and then you just keep on asking me your questions.
Go beat arround the bush to yourself, I gave you the answers, and some very important advice earlier, and that is what you need to do.
BTW, You can accuse me of “” losing it and being angry “” all you want, however, I'm not angry.
I use the “” CAPITOL LETTERS “” for people to “” notice “”, what i'm saying, not to express emotion.
You should be taking my advice, insread of beating arround the mulberry bush.
Hi David,
Jesus prayed to His Father…..and your point is?? No matter who you believe Jesus was before His incarnation, the fact remains that He took on flesh and became a man, and as a man it's logical that he would have communion with His Father…right? So Jesus praying to His Father (and God) suggests nothing about whether we should pray to Jesus or not. Perhaps a more pertenant question might be 'who did the apostles pray to' or 'what does the NT say on the matter'.Here are my thoughts.
First of all, IMHO we must pray to Jesus as He is our mediator (1 Tim 2:5) and we are to have a personal relationship with Him (Joh 10:14; 14:6; 21:15-18 (cf. Deut 6:4), Rev 3:20). It is difficult to have a relationship with someone you do not communicate with. Do you agree?
Also, in the NT;
We are commanded to pray to Jesus: Joh 14:14; 1 Cor 1:2; Acts 8:22-23
We have apostolic examples of prayer to Jesus: 2 Cor 12:7-9, Acts 7:54-60; Acts 8:24
We have necessary inferences of pray to Jesus: 1 Jn 5:11-15, Acts 1:24; Heb 7:25
Moreover, it is Jesus who answers the prayers in Acts 1:24-25; 7:59 (cf. Luk 23:34, 46); Rom 10:12; 1 Cor 1:2 (cf. Ps 116:4,1 Cor 1:9); 2 Th 2:16-17.
The very last verse of the Bible ends with a prayer to Jesus: Rev 22:20 “Even so, come Lord Jesus”.
Do you have koinonia with Jesus David?:
You may have fellowship (koinonia) with us; and truly our fellowship (koinonia) is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ (1 John 1:3).
God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship (koinonia) with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. (1 Cor 1:9)
The word “fellowship” is the greek word [2842] koinonia and means fellowship, association, community, communion, joint participation, intercourse.
From Strongs: partnership, that is, (literally) participation, or (social) intercourse, or (pecuniary) benefaction: – (to) communicate (-ation), communion, (contri-), distribution, fellowship.
So do you have koinonia with Jesus David? If so, how?
Be well
Hi Is 1:18.
You write:
“First of all, IMHO we must pray to Jesus as He is our mediator (1 Tim 2:5)”MEDIATOR (some online definitions.)
“one that works to effect reconciliation, settlement, or compromise between parties at variance.”
“a negotiator who acts as a link between parties.”The one praying Jesus Chris Jehovah God.
Notice that Jesus is inbetween the two parties, as a mediator.
We must pray through Jesus, as that is what a mediator does, he mediates between two parties. By definition, your argument seems wrong.Is 1:18 continues:
“….and we are to have a personal relationship with Him (Joh 10:14; 14:6; 21:15-18 (cf. Deut 6:4), Rev 3:20). It is difficult to have a relationship with someone you do not communicate with. Do you agree?”The Almighty speaks to us through his word (not directly) and we speak to him through our mediator. (Not directly) We are sinful and presently need a mediator. Here the Scriptures you give:
JOHN 10:14
“I am the fine shepherd, and I know my sheep and my sheep know me,”
(Do we need to talk to Jesus for him to know us. Or, to look at the other side of the scripture, does Jesus have to talk to us for us to know him?)
JOHN 14:6
“Jesus said to him: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
(Right, only through Jesus, “the way,” can we approach God in prayer and have an approved relationship with Him. Good point.)
JOHN 21:15-18
(I’m not sure how this scripture is supposed to show that we should pray to Jesus.)
DEUTERONOMY 6:4
““Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.”
(True enough. Your point?)
REVELATION 3:20
“Look! I am standing at the door and knocking. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come into his [house] and take the evening meal with him and he with me.”
(Another good scipture. Again, I don’t see anything here that implies that we are to pray to Jesus.)Is 1:18 says:
We are commanded to pray to Jesus: Joh 14:14; 1 Cor 1:2; Acts 8:22-23JOHN 14:14
“If YOU ask anything in my name, I will do it.”
(The asking is addressed to Jehovah God—but in Jesus’ name. (John 14:13, 14; 15:16) We petition God that His Son, Jesus, apply his great power and authority in our behalf.)
1 CORINTHIANS 1:2
“to the congregation of God that is in Corinth, to YOU who have been sanctified in union with Christ Jesus, called to be holy ones, together with all who everywhere are CALLING UPON THE NAME OF OUR LORD, Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:”
(See Below: How is the name of Jesus called upon.)
ACTS 8:22-23
(I take it your Bible tells us to supplicate “the lord.” The question is, who is here referred to? Jehovah is referred to as lord as is Jesus. One cannot use this scripture to prove that we should pray to Jesus.)Is 1:18 continues:
We have apostolic examples of prayer to Jesus: 2 Cor 12:7-9, Acts 7:54-60; Acts 8:24
2 CORINTHIANS 12:7-9
“just because of the excess of the revelations. Therefore, that I might not feel overly exalted, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, an angel of Satan, to keep slapping me, that I might not be overly exalted. In this behalf I three times entreated the Lord that it might depart from me; and yet he really said to me: “My undeserved kindness is sufficient for you; for [my] power is being made perfect in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, will I rather boast as respects my weaknesses, that the power of the Christ may like a tent remain over me.”
(Again, that word “lord,” which you take it to mean is Jesus in this instance. Too bad we can’t find an actual scripture that says anyone “prays” to “Jesus.” Same for Acts 8:24.)ACTS 7:54-60
“Well, at hearing these things they felt cut to their hearts and began to gnash their teeth at him. But he, being full of holy spirit, gazed into heaven and caught sight of God’s glory and of Jesus standing at God’s right hand, and he said: “Look! I behold the heavens opened up and the Son of man standing at God’s right hand.” At this they cried out at the top of the voice and put their hands over their ears and rushed upon him with one accord. And after throwing him outside the city, they began casting stones at him. And the witnesses laid down their outer garments at the feet of a young man called Saul. And they went on casting stones at Stephen as he made appeal and said: “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” Then, bending his knees, he cried out with a strong voice: “Jehovah, do not charge this sin against them.” And after saying this he fell asleep [in death].”
(This will be covered below.)‘But,’ some may ask, ‘does the Bible not report that both the disciple Stephen and the apostle John spoke to Jesus in heaven?’ That is true. These events, however, did not involve prayers, as Stephen and John each saw Jesus in vision and spoke to him directly. (Acts 7:56, 59; Revelation 1:17-19; 22:20) Bear in mind that simply speaking even to God does not in itself constitute a prayer. Adam and Eve spoke to God, offering excuses for their great sin, when He judged them following their sin in Eden. Their talking to him in that way was not a prayer. (Genesis 3:8-19) Hence, it would be incorrect to cite Stephen’s or John’s talking to Jesus as evidence that we actually should pray to him.
Though some claim that prayer may properly be addressed to others, such as to God’s Son, the evidence is emphatically to the contrary. True, there are rare instances in which words are addressed to Jesus Christ in heaven. Stephen, when about to die, appealed to Jesus, saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” (Ac 7:59) However, the context reveals a circumstance giving basis for this exceptional expression. Stephen at that very time had a vision of “Jesus standing at God’s right hand,” and evidently reacting as if he were in Jesus’ personal presence, he felt free to speak this plea to the one whom he recognized as the head of the Christian congregation. (Ac 7:55, 56; Col 1:18) Similarly, the apostle John, at the conclusion of the Revelation, says, “Amen! Come, Lord Jesus.” (Re 22:20) But again the context shows that, in a vision (Re 1:10; 4:1, 2), John had been hearing Jesus speak of his future coming and thus John responded with the above expression of his desire for that coming. (Re 22:16, 20) In both cases, that of Stephen and that of John, the situation differs little from that of the conversation John had with a heavenly person in this Revelation vision. (Re 7:13, 14; compare Ac 22:6-22.) There is nothing to indicate that Christian disciples so expressed themselves under other circumstances to Jesus after his ascension to heaven. Thus, the apostle Paul writes: “In everything by prayer and supplication along with thanksgiving let your petitions be made known to God.”—Php 4:6.Should We Pray to Jesus?
According to the Bible, Jesus indeed occupies a very high position in heaven. Does that, however, mean that we should pray to him? You may be among those who, out of love for Jesus, direct prayers to him, but what does Jesus himself think about such prayers?
First, why do these questions even arise? Because the Bible says that Jehovah God is the “Hearer of prayer.” It is hardly surprising, then, that servants of God in ancient times, such as the Israelites, prayed only to Jehovah God, the Almighty.—Psalm 5:1, 2; 65:2.
Did things change when Jesus, the Son of God, came to earth to deliver mankind from sin and death? No, prayers were still directed to Jehovah. When on earth Jesus himself prayed frequently to his heavenly Father, and he taught others to do likewise. Just think of the model prayer, sometimes called the Lord’s Prayer or the Our Father, which is one of the best-known prayers in the world. Jesus did not teach us to pray to him; he gave us this model: “Our Father in the heavens, let
your name be sanctified.”—Matthew 6:6, 9; 26:39, 42.What Is a Prayer?
Every prayer is a form of worship. The World Book Encyclopedia confirms this, stating: “Prayer is a form of worship in which a person may offer devotion, thanks, confession, or supplication to God.”
On one occasion Jesus said: “It is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’” Jesus adhered to the fundamental truth that worship—hence also prayers—is to be addressed only to his Father, Jehovah God.—Luke 4:8; 6:12.
Acknowledging Jesus in Our Prayers
Jesus died as a ransom sacrifice for mankind, was resurrected by God, and was exalted to a superior position. As you might imagine, all of this did bring about a change regarding acceptable prayers. In what way?
The apostle Paul describes the great influence that Jesus’ position exerts on prayer as follows: “For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.”—Philippians 2:9-11.
Do the words “in the name of Jesus every knee should bend” mean that we are to pray to him? No. The Greek phrase here involved “denotes the name upon which those that bow the knee unite, on which united all (π?α?ν? γ?ό?ν?υ?) worship. The name which Jesus has received moves all to united adoration.” (A Grammar of the Idiom of the New Testament, by G. B. Winer) Indeed, for a prayer to be acceptable, it must be presented “in the name of Jesus,” but it is, nevertheless, addressed to Jehovah God and serves to his glorification. For this reason, Paul says: “In everything by prayer and supplication along with thanksgiving let your petitions be made known to God.”—Philippians 4:6.
Just as a path leads to a goal, so Jesus is the “way” that leads to God the Almighty. “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me,” Jesus taught the apostles. (John 14:6) Thus, we should present our prayers to God through Jesus and not directly to Jesus himself.How Is the Name of Jesus ‘Called Upon’?
Do you have lingering doubts, still considering it proper to pray to Jesus? One woman wrote to a branch office of the Watch Tower Society: “Unfortunately, I am still not convinced that the first Christians did not pray to Jesus.” She had in mind Paul’s words at 1 Corinthians 1:2, where he mentioned “all who everywhere are calling upon the name of our Lord, Jesus Christ.” One should note, however, that in the original language, the expression “to call upon” can mean things other than prayer.
How was the name of Christ ‘called upon’ everywhere? One way was that the followers of Jesus of Nazareth openly acknowledged him to be the Messiah and “Savior of the world,” performing many miraculous acts in his name. (1 John 4:14; Acts 3:6; 19:5) Therefore, The Interpreter’s Bible states that the phrase “to call on the name of our Lord . . . means to confess his lordship rather than to pray to him.”
Accepting Christ and exercising faith in his shed blood, which make the forgiveness of sins possible, also constitute a “calling upon the name of our Lord, Jesus Christ.” (Compare Acts 10:43 with 22:16.) And we literally say Jesus’ name whenever we pray to God through him. So, while showing that we can call upon the name of Jesus, the Bible does not indicate that we should pray to him.—Ephesians 5:20; Colossians 3:17.
What Jesus Can Do for Us
Jesus clearly promised his disciples: “If you ask anything in my name, I will do it.” Does this require praying to him? No. The asking is addressed to Jehovah God—but in Jesus’ name. (John 14:13, 14; 15:16) We petition God that His Son, Jesus, apply his great power and authority in our behalf.
How does Jesus communicate with his true followers today? Paul’s description of the congregation of anointed Christians may serve as an illustration. He compared it to a body and Jesus Christ to the head. The “head” supplies the members of the spiritual body with their needs by way of “joints and ligaments,” or the means and arrangements for supplying his congregation with spiritual nourishment and direction. (Colossians 2:19) In a similar way, Jesus today uses “gifts in men,” or spiritually qualified men, to take the lead in the congregation, even administering correction if it becomes necessary. There is no provision for members of the congregation to communicate directly with Jesus or to pray to him, but they certainly should—yes, must—pray to Jesus’ Father, Jehovah God.—Ephesians 4:8-12.“””
Quote Jesus clearly promised his disciples: “If you ask anything in my name, I will do it.” What about if people ask IN ANOTHER WRONG “”NAME “” OR “”TITLE”” ?
David, that is one reason WHY I asked the question before, of..
“”
Quote Is it ok to apply the Muslim deity of “” Alah “” to the scriptural YHWH= Yah? The world practices Idolatry by “” syncretisim “”, and YHWH= Yah will not accept such worship of applying other nation's deities to Him, He plainly says so.
That's like a modern sodomite( qeer) that KNOWS its an abomination to the true Creator Yah to practice such things, and yet they think its still ok, and keep praying and worshipping in that kind of lifestyle, and they don't want to repent and stop it.
Does YHWH=Yah accept such worship, when a person KNOWS the truth and refuses to repent and stop such things?
Hi David,
A 2300 word reply within 1 1/2 hrs (and thats assuming that you read mine right away)! Thats fast work!
Its also a bit of a give away that a serious cut and paste job has been done. What a pity, I would have preferred to read your personal thoughts David, not the Watchtower's form answers. Thats the problem with message boards – so often you end up seeing the views of opposing scholars bouncing back and forward. I will be replying at a later date as my life has suddenly become busy.
matthew 19:17, “'Why do you ask me about what is good?' Jesus replied. 'There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.'”
john 16:22-24, “So with you: Now is your time of grief, but I will see you again and you will rejoice, and no one will take away your joy. In that day you will no longer ask me anything. I tell you the truth, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.”
we don't need to ask jesus directly in prayer. i think kissing and holding and putting up to the forehead the cross is idolatry.
as to whether it's wrong or not, i know necromancy is wrong like when king saul tried to contact samuel through that woman.
i think it's wrong, but i don't have an exact piece of scripture that states this relating to the messiah. i do remember that he said many false prophets will come, and we shouldn't follow them, but jesus will return with power. i think we should wait for the second coming and not pray to him.
Is 1:18,
I spent the quite a bit of time (about an hour) going through the scriptures that you gave, one by one, just pointing out what they actually say or don't say. Then, after going through the first 3/4's of it, I gave up and did as you said, since those cuts and pastes could do a better job than me anyway. And since I completely agree with those thoughts, as they are true, why not cut and paste them. It wasn't until the “But some may ask…” paragraph that I began cutting and pasting, though.
However, if it is truth we are looking for, does it matter that it was cut and pasted? I actually read your comments over several times, and started going through it scripture by scripture. I somehow don't feel you did the same with respect to my comments.
I'm really not sure why you originally asked me if we should pray to Jesus. I made some reference to the world's religions all getting together and praying for peace in 1986. What a disaster that was. Did some of them pray to Jesus? I'd assume. Was that appropriate? Well, did he answer their prayer? Without question, no he didn't. The numbers speak for themselves. Could this perhaps be because for one, Jesus is not whom we are to direct prayers to?
I also couldn't help but notice you made no reply to my comments, as I did to yours. Surely you have an hour to spare, as I did? I don't expect such a quick reply as I could give. I would much rather go through the scriptures one by one and discuss them one by one than have you throw every scripture you know that you believe indicates we should pray to Jesus, and then have me present everything I know as to why we shouldn't.Right Brandon, we are not to pray to Jesus, rather “through” him, as the scriptures indicate. He is our mediator as Is 1:18 pointed out.
And yes Brandon, kissing and adoring and worshiping the cross is definitely wrong and idolatrous for a number of reasons.david
david,Sep. wrote:[/quote]
Hi David,Quote I spent the quite a bit of time (about an hour) going through the scriptures that you gave, one by one, just pointing out what they actually say or don't say. Then, after going through the first 3/4's of it, I gave up and did as you said, since those cuts and pastes could do a better job than me anyway. And since I completely agree with those thoughts, as they are true, why not cut and paste them. It wasn't until the “But some may ask…” paragraph that I began cutting and pasting, though.
Thank you David, I appreciate your honesty. The problem I have with this practice is that I don't particularly want to debate the JW intelligensia, but you David. Not that there is anything special about Watchtower theologians, but like any of the denominations there are always representatives who happan to have a gift for writing eloquantly and persuasively. That doesnt mean what they write is truthful, BTW, just that they can present a cogent, compelling argument based on their interpretation of scripture. I'm sure I would easily lose a doctrinal debate with the best scholar from the most overtly erroneous denomination – but that would not reflect the truthfulness of his/her interpretation(s), just the ability of the proponent in debating. Understand? Aside from all that, isn't the search for biblical truth the purpose of the boards? If you agree then surely you agree that in order to facilitate this you have to detach yourself from denominational affiliations and their doctrinal information sources. Unless you believe that JWs are doctrinally perfect in their understanding of scripture, in which case why, in all honesty, are you here? ….to convert?Quote However, if it is truth we are looking for, does it matter that it was cut and pasted?
Well for one thing where have you acknowledged you source(s)? It matters because I would rather have David's version….not the Watchtower's form replies to the inevitable challenges….or can these never be seperated?Quote I actually read your comments over several times, and started going through it scripture by scripture. I somehow don't feel you did the same with respect to my comments.
I will David – read below.Quote I'm really not sure why you originally asked me if we should pray to Jesus. I made some reference to the world's religions all getting together and praying for peace in 1986. What a disaster that was. Did some of them pray to Jesus? I'd assume. Was that appropriate? Well, did he answer their prayer? Without question, no he didn't. The numbers speak for themselves. Could this perhaps be because for one, Jesus is not whom we are to direct prayers to?
This is nonsense David. First of all does God answer every prayer? I praise God for some of my prayers that haven't been answered! Secondly, praying for world peace is actually unbiblical – anyone with a cursory understanding of eschatology will tell you that, generally speaking, as the second coming approaches peace will diminish and the world will become increasingly politically unstable (wars, rumours or wars, disease, famine…etc). So for God to answer that prayer will mean going against His word – right? So David, your reasoning is faulty here.Quote I also couldn't help but notice you made no reply to my comments, as I did to yours. Surely you have an hour to spare, as I did? I don't expect such a quick reply as I could give. I would much rather go through the scriptures one by one and discuss them one by one than have you throw every scripture you know that you believe indicates we should pray to Jesus, and then have me present everything I know as to why we shouldn't.
David, if you read my post again you will see that I would reply at a later date – when time permits. I imagine it will take several hours to wade through your post, so I usually don't have time to do that until the weekends (and not every weekend either – I have a young family).Be well
Is 1:18 writes:
“The problem I have with this practice is that I don't particularly want to debate the JW intelligen[t]sia, but you David. . . .like any of the denominations there are always representatives who happan to have a gift for writing eloquantly and persuasively.”
Well then, I would suggest you find someone who can represent your beliefs more persuasively.
There were no eloquant or faniciful words. Just simple logic and scripture. Nothing added, nothing taken away.Is 1:18 writes:
“I'm sure I would easily lose a doctrinal debate with the best scholar from the most overtly erroneous denomination.”
I would suggest making Bible reading a top priority. We actually have two meetings tonight, the Theocratic Ministry School and the Service Meeting. Both are designed to help with the sort of problem you suggest you have.Is 1:18 continues:
“…but that would not reflect the truthfulness of his/her interpretation(s), just the ability of the proponent in debating.”
Or, Is 1:18, perhaps your ability to reason on scripture. Again, read the Bible daily.Is 1:18 writes:
“Aside from all that, isn't the search for biblical truth the purpose of the boards?”
Yes, am I'm trying to help you with that.
ROMANS 10:13-15
“For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.” However, how will they call on him in whom they have not put faith? How, in turn, will they put faith in him of whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach? How, in turn, will they preach unless they have been sent forth? Just as it is written: “How comely are the feet of those who declare good news of good things!””Is 1:18 said:
“If you agree then surely you agree that in order to facilitate this you have to detach yourself from denominational affiliations and their doctrinal information sources. Unless you believe that JWs are doctrinally perfect in their understanding of scripture, in which case why, in all honesty, are you here? ….to convert?”
I've already stated why I landed on this site a couple of times. If the apostle Paul had the internet, would he agree that he'd have to detach himself from his affiliations and their doctrinal information sources?
I have never suggested that Jehovah's Witnesses are perfect, as all humans are imperfect. Even the early Christians had wrong expectations.Is 1:18 writes:
“Well for one thing where have you acknowledged you source(s)? It matters because I would rather have David's version….not the Watchtower's form replies to the inevitable challenges….or can these never be seperated?”
If it's the truth, why challenge where it came from? Is it because you can't challenge the truthfulness of it itself? I could re-write it for you if you want, in my own words. But I too am busy. For instance, right now, I should be leaving for my meetings.Is 1:18 writes:
“This is nonsense David. First of all does God answer every prayer? [Of course not.] I praise God for some of my prayers that haven't been answered! Secondly, praying for world peace is actually unbiblical – anyone with a cursory understanding of eschatology will tell you that, generally speaking, as the second coming approaches peace will diminish and the world will become increasingly politically unstable (wars, rumours or wars, disease, famine…etc). So for God to answer that prayer will mean going against His word – right? So David, your reasoning is faulty here.”
I actually agree with everything in this quote. And my reasoning would be faulty if that is all I based it on. But notice I said: “Could this perhaps be because FOR ONE, Jesus is not whom we are to direct prayers to?” One of the other reasons is as you stated. You're right, the heads of all the 'worlds' major religions don't know enough to know their prayers wouldn't be answered. But another reason they weren't answered, is that they were directed wrongly.This post took me half an hour to construct. I didn't quote from anything other than the Bible. Are we happy?
David.
Please try to go through the basis of your belief in praying to Jesus in an orderly way. ie: If it's true, than let's look at why you believe that one thought at a time.
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