Why the Confusion?&#33;

Participant

Nick,

Do you agree when epistemaniac said Jesus created all things?

epistemaniac,

It is quite clear to me from the witness of some 107 Scriptural passages that it was Father Yahweh who created all things. There is not on Scriptural passage that proclaims that Yahshua created all things.

August 25, 2006 at 8:52 pm#25624

To Believe “Jesus Created All Things” Is To Be Deceived!

Participant

Say “Amen” again to your Trinitarian brother Nick!

I will be back Monday to post further Scriptural proof that it was Father Yahweh who created all things and not his son Yahshua.

August 25, 2006 at 9:25 pm#25627

Participant

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 25 2006,21:44)

Nick,

Do you agree when epistemaniac said Jesus created all things?

epistemaniac,

Hi F4Y,
All things were created by God
By and through Jesus-
That is what is written.

E turns a blind eye to the whole of scripture
that speaks of a beautiful relationship
between a Father God and His Son
to try and foster and nourish His deeper beliefs
that God never had a Son
and is a composite trinity.

August 25, 2006 at 11:41 pm#25639

epistemaniac

Participant

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 25 2006,21:44)

Nick,

Do you agree when epistemaniac said Jesus created all things?

epistemaniac,

oh? well it is quite clear to me that Paul says, explicitly, that Jesus is who created everything. If this isn't the case, then the Bible explicitly contradicts itself. If you want to argue, then argue with Paul, not me. But, because I am a feeling generous, here is some info for you on the subject… since you want to copy and paste a bunch of stuff… and expect others to read it, perhaps you will take the time to read the following….?

“15. ὅς ἐστιν εἰ κὼν του̂ θεου̂ του̂ ἀοράτου. The magnificent hymn in praise of Christ begins by asserting that he, the beloved Son, is “the image (εἰ κών)of the invisible God.” The very nature and character of God have been perfectly revealed in him; in him the invisible has become visible. Both Old and New Testaments make it plain that “no one has ever seen God.” The Fourth Evangelist, however, adds that “the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, has made him known” (John 1:18). A similar statement is made elsewhere by Paul who, probably with the Damascus road experience in mind, asserts that “the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God (εἰ κὼν του̂ θεου̂ )” had dawned upon him. The God whose creative Word in the beginning called light to shine forth from the darkness had now shone in his heart “to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ” (2 Cor 4:4, 6; cf. 3:18). The same point is made in another way by the writer to the Hebrews that Christ is the “radiance (ἀπαύγασμα)of God’s glory and the very impress of his being” (Heb 1:3).
εἰ κών(“image”) is employed by Paul on a number of occasions not only with reference to Christ as the image of God (here and 2 Cor 4:4), but also regarding the corollary of the increasing transformation of the people of Christ into that same image by the power of the indwelling Spirit (2 Cor 3:18; cf. Col 3:10; Eph 4:24), so that at the end nothing remains of the earthly image in those who finally show forth the image of the heavenly man (1 Cor 15:49; Rom 8:29; cf. Bruce, Paul, 123; see above, where it is pointed out that linguistically, though not conceptually, Paul’s use of “image” in this twofold way is unique in the NT).

Regarding Colossians 1:15, we are reminded of the OT where it is stated that man was made in God’s image (Gen 1:26, 27) and for his glory (Isa 43:7). He is, the apostle states, “the image and glory of God” (1 Cor 11:7). Some have suggested it is difficult to separate Paul’s depicting of the risen Christ as the second man, the last Adam, from his view of Christ as the image of God and the revealer of his glory (Bruce, Paul, 123). These two strands may well coalesce.

But Genesis 1 alone does not adequately explain the background to our phrase in Colossians 1:15 as Burney (JTS 27 [1926] 160–77) and others thought. On the other hand, attempts to understand the meaning of Paul’s statement against an exclusively Greek background are not convincing either (see Feuillet, Christ, 166–75, for references). For although Plato had already called the cosmos the visible image of God (Tim 92c) and this notion was taken up elsewhere (cf. Lohse, 47), it does not explain the meaning of Paul’s use of εἰ κώνhere. Rather, as many scholars have argued, the Hellenistic-Jewish texts of Proverbs 8:22 and Wisdom 7:25 (cf. Kehl, Christushymnus, 52–81, especially 61–67, and Gibbs, Creation, 102, for references) provide a more convincing background to the meaning of “image.” This term, used to refer to the divine revelation, was taken over in Hellenistic Judaism and transferred to “Wisdom.” According to Proverbs 8:22, Wisdom was with the Lord at the beginning of his work, the creation of the world, while in Wisdom 7:25 the divine Wisdom which is personified, is described as the “image” (εἰ κών)of God’s goodness, i.e. the one who reveals the goodness of God.

Paul, in common with other NT writers (John 1:4; Heb 1:3), identified Christ with the Wisdom of God (see further Kim, Paul’s Gospel, 173–339), ascribing to him certain activities which are predicated of personified Wisdom in the OT and Jewish literature.

As the first title of majesty, “image” emphasizes Christ’s relation to God. The term points to his revealing of the Father on the one hand and his pre-existence on the other—it is both functional and ontological. πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως.If “image” (εἰ κών)emphasizes Christ’s relation to God, then the second title, “firstborn of all creation” (on the omission of the article before “creation” see Robertson, Grammar, 772, and BDF, para. 275[3]) designates his relationship to the creation. Stripped from its context and from other Pauline statements about Christ this phrase might be understood to include him among created things (as simply the “eldest” of the “family”: at Rom 8:29 πρωτότοκοςappears to be used in this inclusive sense).

But the context makes it plain that the title cannot refer to him as the first of all created beings since the immediately following words, which provide a commentary on the title (ὅτι ), emphasize the point that he is the one by whom the whole creation came into being. Further, apart from the incompatibility of this thought with the teaching of Paul in general about the person and work of Christ, such an understanding is not required by the word πρωτότοκος(“firstborn”) itself.

The term “firstborn” was frequently used in the LXX (130 times), mostly in genealogies and historical narratives, to indicate temporal priority and sovereignty of rank. Frequently “firstborn” was employed to denote one who had a special place in the father’s love. So Israel is called “my beloved son” (υἰὸς πρωτότοκός μου,Exod 4:22), a phrase that expresses the particularly close relation between God and Israel.

In Judaism the messianic king, as well as Israel, the patriarchs and the Torah are given this title of distinction (for references see Str-B 3, 256–58, 626; Michaelis, TDNT 6, 873–76). Within the NT “firstborn” (πρωτότοκος), which occurs in the plural at Hebrews 11:28 and 12:23, always refers in the singular to Jesus Christ. In most of these contexts while priority of time is in view (Rom 8:29; cf. the parallel expressions in 1 Cor 15:20 and Acts 26:23; Rev 1:5) the notion of supremacy or priority of rank tends to dominate.

The title “firstborn,” used of Christ here and in verse 18, echoes the wording of Psalm 89:27, where God says o
f the Davidic king: “I also will make him my firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth.” But as many have noted this title belongs to Jesus Christ not only as the Messiah of David’s line, but also as the Wisdom of God (so Bruce, 194, 195, and Lohse, 48), a background we observed in connection with him as the “image of the invisible God.” (For further references to Wisdom see Wilckens and Fohrer, TDNT 7, 465–526.)

While Jewish writers speculated about Wisdom by giving to it a quasipersonal status (it was present with God from all eternity, Wisd 9:9; sharing the divine throne, Wisd 9:4; existing before heaven and earth, and according to Philo was the “firstborn son,” πρωτόγονος υἱ ός:ConfLing 146; Agric 51; Som 1.215; the instrument “through whom the universe came into existence,” Fug 109), the NT writers know that “whether they speak of this Wisdom expressly or only by allusion they are speaking of a living person, one whom some of them had met face to face. To them all, as to Paul, Jesus Christ was the incarnate Wisdom of God” (Bruce, 195). As πρωτότοκοςChrist is unique, being distinguished from all creation (cf. Heb 1:6). He is both prior to and supreme over that creation since he is its Lord.

16. ὅτιἐν αὐτῳ̂ἐκτίσθη τὰ πάντα.The statement about Christ’s unique position as “firstborn of all creation” is now given more explicit proof in the words: “because (ὅτι ) in him all things were created.” The passive form “were created” (ἐκτίσθη) indicates that God is the Creator, a point that is reiterated later in the verse when the clause is taken up again with the statement “all things were created [sc. by God] (ἔκτισται )through him and for him.” In the first clause the aorist tense is employed to draw attention to the historical act, while the second reference uses the perfect to focus on creation’s continuing existence. And the historical act of God “in him” establishes that Christ is (and “continues to be,” so Schweizer, Beiträge, 123) the “firstborn of all creation.”

The phrase “in him” (ἐν αὐτῳ̂ ) has occasioned some difficulty. Many commentators take the words in an instrumental sense. So Lohse (50) contends, for the following reasons, that they mean all things have been created “through him” (=δι ’αὐτου̂ ): first, the religious background, i.e. Jewish speculations about Wisdom, require that the phrase be regarded in this way. To treat it as referring to location, he claims, is possible only on the basis of a different history of religions background. Second, the parallel clause at the end of the verse with its phrase “through him” (δι’ αὐτου̂ ) is said to argue for this interpretation; while, third, the parallel statements from 1 Corinthians 8:6 (“through whom are all things,” δι’ου̂̔ τὰ πάντα)and John 1:3 (“all things were made through him,” πάντα δι ’αὐτου̂ ἐγἐνετο)are thought to support it.
Quite clearly the point about Christ as the Mediator of creation includes the notion of instrumentality. But is the phrase stating something more than this, going beyond even 1 Corinthians 8:6 and John 1:3? We agree with Haupt (30, 31; cf. Percy, Probleme, 69, 70) and Bruce (197) who suggest that the preposition “in” (ἐν)points to Christ as the “sphere” (cf. “in him” of v 19) within which the work of creation takes place. According to Haupt the phrase “in him” has the same force as in Ephesians 1:4; God’s creation, like his election, takes place “in Christ” and not apart from him. On Christ depended (causally, so Meyer, 281) the act of creation so that it was not done independently of him (cf. Schweizer, Beiträge, 123–25).
Commentators have drawn attention to the affinities between Paul’s language and Stoic terminology, notably the use of “all” (πα̂ ς)and the play on prepositions (ἐκ—εἰ ς—ἐν)by which the final unity of all that exists is expressed (Norden, Agnostos Theos, 240–50, 347, 348; see Lohse, 49, 50; and Schweizer, 61, for further references). So Norden and others have cited the statement of Marcus Aurelius, “O Nature … all things come from you, subsist in you, go back to you” (M. Aurelius, Meditations 4.23). Now it is one thing to note the linguistic affinities, another to argue that the meaning is the same or that Paul’s thought is derived from Stoicism (Pöhlmann, ZNW 64 [1973] 53–74, has argued that the “all”-formula was used in many other traditions besides Stoicism, especially in Jewish ones; Bruce, 199, claims that to derive the “all” and prepositional constructions from Stoic formulations is to “pay more attention to the form of words than to their substance”). His ideas are very different from Stoic notions; for it is impossible in Paul to identify God with nature or some pantheistically conceived world-soul (cf. Kehl, Christushymnus, 103). And although it might have been possible for Paul, by using Stoic terms, to describe the creation as being called into existence through God’s act—so providing a point of contact with those who had previously come from such a milieu—there is some difficulty with this because of the late dating of the linguistic parallels (Schweizer, 60, 61).

Rather, Paul’s language is derived from Genesis 1 and the OT Wisdom literature (cf. Kehl, Christushymnus, 104–108), where Wisdom is styled the Creator’s master-workman” (Prov 8:30). For Paul, however, that “master-workman” is no longer a figure of speech, but the personal, heavenly Christ who had confronted him on the Damascus road. ἐν τοι ς οὐρανοι ς καὶἐπὶτη̂ γη̂ ς, τὰὁρατὰ καὶτὰἀόρατα.The expression “all things” (τἀ πάντα)is expanded and depicted more clearly by two lines which are constructed chiastically in synonymous parallelism:
ἐν τοι ̂ ς οὐρανοι ς καὶἐπὶτη̂ ς τὰὀρατὰ καὶτὰἀόρατα “in heaven and on earth, things visible and invisible.” “Heaven” and “invisible” correspond as do “earth” and “visible.” The expressions in the parallel lines embrace everything for there are no exceptions (Pöhlmann, ZNW 64 [1973] 58, 59, rightly points out that here is an example of inclusio: that is, the words τὰ πάνταare repeated in the concluding line so binding the chiastic structure together). All things have been brought into existence by the creative act of God in Christ.

εἴ τε θρόνοι εἴ τε κυριότητες εἵ τεἀρχαὶεἴ τεἐξουσίαι . Probably with special reference to the Colossian heresy Paul now emphasizes that even the cosmic powers and principalities, which apparently received some prominence in that heresy, were created in Christ. Good or bad, all are subject to him as Creator. No doubt it i
s the hostile rather than the friendly powers Paul has particularly in view (although H. Schlier, Principalities and Powers in the New Testament [Questiones Disputatae 3; Freiburg: Herder, 1961] 14, 15, is of the opinion they are all wicked, hostile to God and Christ), as he endeavors to show the Colossians their proper place in relation to Christ (Bruce, 198). And the argument he develops in chapter 2 is that they were vanquished through that same Lord. None needs to be placated. They derive their existence from him, and they owe their obedience to him through whom they have been conquered (2:10, 15).

Here four classes of angelic powers are listed: “thrones” (θρόνοι ) and “dominions” (κυριότητες,cf. 1 Cor 8:5), which were occasionally mentioned in Judaism among heavenly hosts of angels (2 Enoch 20:1; Test Levi 3:8), as well as “principalities” (ἀρχαί ) and “powers” (ἐξουσίαι )—often named as supermundane beings and powers (for details see Lohse, 51). They probably represent the highest orders of the angelic realm. Whether the list is complete (here δυνάμεις,found in Rom 8:38; cf. 1 Cor 15:24; Eph 1:21, is missing) or the powers are arranged in a particular order is beside the point (Schlier, Principalities, 13, 14). From the highest to the lowest, all alike are subject to Christ. They were created in him, through him and for him.

Paul’s teaching about Christ as the goal of all creation (εἰ ς αὐτόνis used of God at 1 Cor 8:6; cf. Percy, Probleme, 72, 73) finds no parallel in the Jewish Wisdom literature or in the rest of the extant Jewish materials for that matter. Martin NCB, 58) aptly comments: “No Jewish thinker ever rose to these heights in daring to predict that Wisdom was the ultimate goal of all creation.” And it needs to be remembered that the One of whom Paul speaks in this vein had recently been crucified as a common criminal in Jerusalem. However, he had risen victoriously from the dead and revealed himself to Paul as Son of God (Gal 1:15, 16). To him as goal the whole of creation, and therefore history as well, moved. It was the Father’s intention that all things should be summed up in Christ (cf. Eph 1:10).

17. καὶαὐτός ἐστιν πρὸ πάντων καὶτὰ πάντα ἐν αὐτῳ̂ συνέστηκενIn a twofold statement about the preexistence and cosmic significance of Christ the teaching of verses 15 and 16 is reiterated (cf. Bruce, 220, and Benoit, Christianity, 228; on the importance of this verse see Hegermann, Schöpfungsmittler, 93, 94). There is no interest in the state or condition of the universe as such—only the concern to reassert the point about Christ’s supremacy over the world. The first affirmation, “he is before all things” (αὐτός ἐστιν πρὸ πάντων), declares his temporal priority to the universe. Therefore one could not rightly say as Arius did that: “There was once when he was not” (η̂̓ ν ποτε ὅτε οὐκ η̂̓ ν). At the same time the statement implies his primacy over the cosmos (cf. Harris, NIDNTT 3, 1177) and points back to the earlier designation “firstborn of all creation.” As the preexistent One (cf. John 8:58) he is Lord of the universe. Schweizer has made the interesting suggestion that the emphatic “he” (αὐτός)of this affirmation corresponds to the solemn “I” of the OT which refers to Yahweh himself (62).

τὰ πάντα ἐν αὐτῳ̂ συνἐστηκεν.Not only was the universe created in the Son as the sphere, by him as the divine agent, and for him as the goal; it was also established permanently “in him” alone, as the second affirmation, “in him all things are held together,” asserts. He is the sustainer of the universe and the unifying principle of its life. Apart from his continuous sustaining activity (note the perfect tense συνέστηκεν) all would disintegrate. Many have drawn attention to the similarities between this statement and the language of Platonic and Stoic philosophy where the term συνεστηκέναι(Plato, Republic 530a; Pseudo Aristotle, Mund 6; PhiloRerDivHer 281, 311) was employed to denote the wonderful unity of the entire world (for further references see Hegermann, Schöpfungsmittler, 94, 95; Feuillet, Christ, 214; and Lohse, 52). While there are points of linguistic contact with Stoicism especially, and thus the language of the hymn may well have served as a bridge for those from such a background (cf. the similar function of λόγοςin John 1), nevertheless Pauline thought is different from the pantheistically conceived world-soul of Stoicism. As Feuillet, Schweizer and others have noted, the parallels from Hellenistic Judaism, especially the LXX, are much closer. According to Wisdom 1:7, the Spirit “of the Lord, indeed, fills the whole world, and that which holds all things together (συνέχον τὰ πάντα) knows every word that is said” (JB; on the use of συνέχωrather than συνίστημιsee Feuillet, Christ, 215), while Ecclesiasticus 43:26 states that “all things hold together by means of his word” (JB; ἐν λόγῳαὐτου̂ σὐγκειταιτὰ πάντα). Martin (NCB, 59), following R. B. Y. Scott (“Wisdom in Creation: the ’Āmôn of Proverbs viii.30.” VT 10 [1960] 213–23), considers the thought is probably indebted to Proverbs 8:30 where Wisdom is called God’s ןמא,’āôn (RSV “master workman”). Although Scott translates this as a “living link or vital bond” and suggests that Wisdom is regarded as a principle of coherence between God and his world, the appropriateness of his rendering has been questioned. For Paul, it is the Christ who has made himself known to the apostle who is the Sustainer and Unifier of the universe. As the Epistle to the Hebrews puts it, the Son of God through whom the worlds (αἰ ω̂ νες) were made sustains all things and bears them to their appointed end (φέρων… τὰ πάντα)by his powerful word (1:2, 3).” (Peter T O`Brien. Word Commentary)

“Colossians i. 15–20, is expressly designed to set forth the true Godhead of Christ in opposition to the errors springing from the emanation theory, which had already begun to prevail in the churches of Asia Minor. This passage sets forth the relation of Christ, first to God, and secondly to the universe, and thirdly to the Church. Here, as in so many other places of Scripture, the predicates of the Lovgo” a[sarko” of the Lovgo” ensarko”, are mingled together. As in Heb. i. 2, 3, the Son is said to have created all things, and to be the brightness of the Father’s glory, and also to have made purification for sin; so here part of what is said belongs to’ the Logos as existing from eternity, and part belongs to Him as clothed in our nature. It was the Lovgo” a[sarko” who is declared to be the image of the invisible God and creator of all things; and it is the Lovgo” e[nsarko” who is declared to be the head of the Church. T
he relation of Christ to God, in this passage is expressed, (1.) By the words just quoted, “He is the image of the invisible God.” He is so related to God that He reveals what God is, so that those who see Him, see God, those who know Him, know God, and those who hear Him, hear God. He is the brightness of God’s glory, and his express image. (2.) His relation to God is also expressed by saying that He is begotten from eternity, or the only begotten Son. The words prwtovtoko” pavsh” ktivsew” are indeed variously explained. By Socinians they are made to mean that He was the head of the new dispensation; by Arians that He was the first created of all rational creatures; by many orthodox interpreters prwtovtoko” is taken in its secondary sense, of head or chief. They therefore understand the Apostle to say that Christ is the ruler or head over the whole creation. All these interpretations, however, are inconsistent with the proper meaning of the words, with the context, and with the analogy of Scripture. Prwtovtoko” means born before. What Christ is said to have been born before, is expressed by pavsh” ktivsew”. He was born (or begotten) before any or every creature, i. e., before creation, or from eternity. All the arguments adduced in a preceding chapter in proof of the eternal generation of the Son, are arguments in favour of this interpretation. Besides, the Arian interpretation is inconsistent with the meaning of the words. That interpretation assumes that the genitive pavsh” ktivsew” is to be taken partitively, so that Christ is said to be a part of the creation, the first of creatures, as He is said to be the first of those who rose from the dead, when He is called protovtoko” tw`n nekrw`n, But pasa ktivsi” does not mean the whole creation, as indicating the class or category to which Christ belongs, but every creature, as indicating a relation or comparison; Christ is the first begotten as to every creature, i. e., begotten before any creature (i. e., eternally, according to the constant usage of Scripture, for what is before creation is eternal.) Besides, the connection requires this interpretation. The Apostle proves that Christ is the image of the invisible God, and the protovtoko” pavsh” ktisew” by an argument which proves that He cannot be a creature; and therefore the birth of which he speaks must be before time. Secondly, the relation of Christ to the universe is expressed in this passage by saying, (1.) That He is the Creator of all things. This is amplified, as the all things are declared to include all that are in heaven and earth,. visible and invisible, rational and irrational, however exalted, even thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers; that is, the whole hierarchy of the spiritual world. (2.) He is not only the author but the end of the creation, for all things were not only created by Him, but for Him. (3.) He upholds all things; by Him all things consist, i. e., are preserved in being, life, and order. Thirdly, Christ is the head of the Church, the source of life and grace to all its members. For in Him “all fullness,” the plenitude of divine blessings dwells. In chapter Col. ii. 3, all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge (i. e., all knowledge or omniscience) are said to dwell in Christ; and in Col. ii. 9, that He is filled with “the fullness of the Godhead.” This is very different from the plhrwma mentioned in i. 19, where the Apostle is speaking of what Beza calls “cumulatissima omnium divinarum rerum copia, ex qua, tanquan inexhausto fonte, omnes gratin in corpus pro cujusque membri modulo deriventur:” but here the reference is to the divine being, nature, or essence itself, to; plhvrwma th`” qeovthto”. The word qeovth” is abstract of qeov” as qeiovth” is of qei`o”; the former means Godhead, that which makes God, God; the latter means divinity, that which renders divine. The entire plenitude of the divine essence (not a mere emanation of that essence as the rising sect of the Gnostics taught), dwells (katoikei` permanently abides, it is no transient manifestation) in Him bodily, swmatikw`”, invested with a body. The Godhead in its fulness is incarnate in Christ. He is, therefore, not merely qeov” but oJ qeov” in the highest sense. More than Paul says cannot be said….. The Scriptures, with equal clearness, declare that Christ was truly God. … All divine names and titles are applied to him. He is called God, the Mighty God, the Great God, God over all; Jehovah; Lord; the Lord of Lords and the King of kings. All divine attributes are ascribed to him. He is declared to be omnipresent, omniscient, almighty, and immutable, the same yesterday, today, and forever. He is set forth as the creator and upholder and ruler of the universe. All things were created by him and for him; and by him all things consist. He is the object of worship to all intelligent creatures, even the highest; all the angels (i.e., all creatures between man and God) are commanded to prostrate themselves before him. He is the object of all religious sentiments; of reverence, love, faith and devotion. To him men and angels are responsible for their character and conduct. He required that men should honour him as they honored the Father; that they should exercise the same faith in him that they do in God. He declares that he and the Father are one; that those who had seen him had seen the Father also. He calls all men unto him; promises to forgive their sins; to send them the Holy Spirit; to give them rest and peace; to raise them up at the last day; and to give them eternal life. God is not more, and cannot promise more, or do more than Christ is said to be, to promise, and to do. He has, therefore, been the Christian’s God from the beginning, in all ages and in all places.” (Charles Hodge, Systematic Theology)

all in all… I am pretty secure in the justification for my belief, but I would happily give you a bunch more proof if you like, and if you would really take the time to read it….. However, the fact that you can prove that YHWH created all that there is (which I do not deny), and yet it can be said that it was Jesus who created all things, this leads to the inevitable conclusion that Jesus is God. Is that the conclusion you are trying to avoid by trying to deny the clear statement from Paul?

blessings

August 26, 2006 at 2:45 am#25653

Participant

Far out… why don't you write a book? lol

August 26, 2006 at 2:48 am#25654

Participant

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 25 2006,21:44)

Nick,

Do you agree when epistemaniac said Jesus created all things?

epistemaniac,

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.
Joh 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, He gave to them authority to become the children of God, to those who believe on His name,
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of bloods, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were born of God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and tabernacled among us. And we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and of truth.

How can you read this any other way than the Word of God (who was named Jesus), creating all things??

August 26, 2006 at 4:24 am#25657

Participant

Hi Oxy,
THROUGH

Just as it says in Phil 4.13
“I can do all things THROUGH Him who strengthens me”

August 26, 2006 at 8:15 am#25670

Participant

I am familiar with that verse Nick, but what does it have to do with who created everything?

August 26, 2006 at 8:35 am#25671

Participant

Hi Oxy,
God in heaven does His work THROUGH others as He is the Ultimate Delegator.

Would it not be odd if the Originator of everything had to DO it all Himself?

He owns the work but there is no need to do it Himself as He has servants to do it all THROUGH.

He spoke THROUGH the prophets and scripture is replete with examples.

He created THROUGH His Son.

He worked THROUGH the Son.

Now the work continues THROUGH us.

Nothing useful is done except by God's own work, done THROUGH His servants.

August 26, 2006 at 9:18 pm#25696

Participant

Yeah, I can agree with you to a point Nick. The difference is that in the beginning the Word was not the Son of God, but was God. Think of it this way. A prophesy is living, that's why it bears fruit. In a respect the Word was prophecy and that's why creation happened. YHWH spoke and the Word went forth from Him to create.

The Word later submitted Himself to be born of Mary, hence Yashua came into being. At that stage He became the first born of the Father, who, up until that stage was not a Father at all.

I know that there are Scriptural references to the sons of God earlier in Scripture, but these were not actual sons. They were people that He had breathed His Spirit into.

August 26, 2006 at 9:33 pm#25699

Participant

Quote (Oxy @ Aug. 26 2006,22:18)

The Word later submitted Himself to be born of Mary, hence Yashua came into being. At that stage He became the first born of the Father, who, up until that stage was not a Father at all.

I know that there are Scriptural references to the sons of God earlier in Scripture, but these were not actual sons. They were people that He had breathed His Spirit into.

Hi Oxy,
Is this the same Word you speak of that John speaks of?
1Jn 1 1f
“1What was from the beginning,
what we have heard,
what we have seen with our eyes,
what we have looked at and
touched with our hands,
concerning the Word of Life–
2and the life was manifested,
and we have seen
and testify
and proclaim to you
the eternal life,
which was with the Father
and was manifested to us–“

Seems like a being to me.
Is this the same being spoken of again by John in
Revelation 19.11f
” 11And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war.
12His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself.
13He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.”

Seems like a being to me
A being called Jesus Christ
The Word of God.
The same Word that was with God in the beginning.[Jn 1.1]

You disagree?

You say

“The Word later submitted Himself to be born of Mary”

If the Word is able to make choices, such as to be submitted, then is it possible that it was not a being?

This is what you said in another post

“Can you show me in Scripture please where the Bible is called the Word of God? The truth is that it is totally unscriptural. There is one Word (logo) of God according to Scripture, His name is Jesus”

And we know this about Jesus Christ from Heb 13
” 8Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.”
Was not this Jesus YESTERDAY?

If scripture calls sons of God,
sons of God,
should we beg to differ?

August 26, 2006 at 9:53 pm#25700

Participant

Nick, of course the Word of God is a being. And He is still called the Word of God today. I have at no stage denied the Word being someone rather than something. Hence my point about prophecy being living.

I would never say that I understand God totally. That would be foolishness, but one thing I do understand is that He is greater than we can imagine and there are mysteries surrounding Him. Just one of those mysteries, which seems to cause most of the debate on this site, is exactly who He is and how One can be three. I am happy to live with the mysteries of God.

August 26, 2006 at 10:19 pm#25705

Participant

Hi Oxy,
So there was a being with God in the beginning with life in himself.
Jn 5.26
” 26″For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;”
1Jn 4.9
” 9By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him.”

So surely
the Word
was a son
before he was sent.

August 27, 2006 at 1:21 am#25733

Participant

Hi Nick, it clarifies that Scripture you quoted a lot to realise that it was Jesus who spoke those words, as the Son of God.

Phi 2:5 For let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
Phi 2:6 who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God,
Phi 2:7 but made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Himself the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men.
Phi 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Phi 2:9 Therefore God has highly exalted Him, and has given Him a name which is above every name,
Phi 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of heavenly ones, and of earthly ones, and of ones under the earth;
Phi 2:11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

August 27, 2006 at 2:19 am#25735

Participant

Hi Oxy,
Awful translation though
-“thought it not robbery”-

We need someone from the 16th century here to clarify this.

So you agree
there was a being
with God
called the Word?

August 27, 2006 at 3:56 am#25747

Participant

yep, the Word was God and the Word was with God

August 27, 2006 at 4:12 am#25751

Participant

Hi Oxy,
So was the Word a divine being?

August 28, 2006 at 8:20 pm#26229

Participant

There are some 107 Scriptures that proclaim that Father Yahweh is the creator of all things. Here are just a few of them:

Psalm 121:1 & 33:6-9; Isayah 44:24; Acts 7:49-50

The following passages proclaim that Father Yahweh ALONE created all things and that there is NO OTHER beside Him.

Deuteronomy 4:19, 32, 35, 39; 2 Kings 19:15; Job 9:2, 5-9; Isayah 37:16 & 45:18

Father and Son

Mt.20:23 – Father And Son – two persons.

Jn.3:16 – For Yahweh so loved the world that He gave, not Himself, but His Son.

Jn.3:17 – Yahweh sent His Son into the world. Did Yahweh send Himself?

Jn.5:37 – You have not heard or seen the Father (but they had seen and heard the Son) two different persons.

Jn.5:37 – There are TWO witnesses – (1) the Father and (2) the Son (two persons).

Jn.5:43 – Yahshua came in the Father's name, but they did not receive him.

Jn.8:18 – There are TWO witnesses; the Father and the Son (two persons).

Jn.8:19 – You know neither me nor my Father (two persons).

Jn.10:29 – The Father is greater than all (others).

Jn.12:28 – Yahshua said, “Father, glorify thy Name.” A voice answered. Was it Yahshua answering himself? Are they One and the Same Person? Jn.14:1 – You believe in Yahweh, believe ALSO in me (two persons).

Jn.14:25 – My words are not mine, but His who sent me (two persons: sender/sent).

Jn.14:28 – My FATHER is greater than I – truly (two persons; Father & Son).

Jn.15:1 – I am the vine. My FATHER is the vine dresser; two different parties.

Jn.15:9 – The Father loved me, so I haved loved you (three parties; Father, Son & disciples).

Jn.15:10 – If you love me you will keep my commandments just as I have kept my Father's commandments.

Jn.15:24 – They hated BOTH me AND my Father (two persons).

Jn.16:3 – You have not known the Father nor me (two parties; Father & Son).

Jn.16:28 – I came down from the Father and go to the Father. Did Yahshua go to himself?

Jn.16:32 – I am not alone, for the Father is with me (two persons).

Jn.17:1 – Yahshua prayed to the Father. Did he pray to himself?

Jn.17:3 – ETERNAL LIFE is knowing you, the ONLY TRUE EL, AND Yahshua Messiah whom you sent. Do we want eternal life? If so, believe in the Father and the Son (two persons).

Jn.17:4 – I glorified you on earth, and finished the work you gave me to do (the Boss & the workman). Jn.17:5 – Now Father, glorify me. Two parties; one is superior, one inferior).

Jn.17:11 – Father, keep my disciples, that they may be ONE AS WE ARE ONE. Comment: Yahshua and his Father were “one” just as the 12 Apostles should be “one;” that is, “one in purpose and doctrine.

Jn.17:18 – As YOU sent ME, so I send them into the world. Three parties: You, me, and them.

Jn.17:21 – That they may all be one in US; you and I. Us equals two or more persons.

Jn.17:22 – That the Apostles may be one as WE are ONE. Were the Apostles only one person, rather than 12 persons? Just as the Apostles were 12 individual persons, but with one goal, so the Heavenly Father and His Son were two individual persons with one goal.

Acts 2:24* – Here we have TWO persons: One ALIVE, one DEAD. Yahshua, being dead, could not raise himself. Who did? Yahweh raised him from the grave – from death (Acts 3:14,15).

Acts 2:27 – Yahshua's soul was not left in hell; it too was raised from hell, from the grave, from the dead (vs.32). By whom? By the power of Yahweh (two persons are referred to here).

Rom.1:3 – Declared to be the Son of Yahweh, … by his resurrection from the dead (two persons).

Gal.1:1 – Yahweh (the Father) raised Yahshua (the Son) from the dead. Yahshua was subject to death, but his Father was not subject to death.

Eph.6:23 – Peace to all from Yahweh the Father AND from Yahshua. Two separate and distinct persons.

Ph.1:2 – Grace from Yahweh our Father AND from Yahshua Messiah. Two persons.

Col.1:1 – Paul an Apostle of Yahshua Messiah by the will of Yahweh (three persons: Paul, Yahweh, & Yahshua).

1 Th.1:1 – Peace from Yahweh the Father AND the Savior Yahshua (two persons; Father and Son).

2 Th.1:2 – Grace and peace from Yahweh the Father AND from Yahshua the Messiah (two persons).

1 Tim.1:1 – Paul, an Apostle of Yahshua by command of Yahweh AND Yahshua Messiah (Two persons).

1 Tim.1:2 – Grace, mercy and peace from Yahweh the Father, AND from Yahshua the Messiah.

2 Tim.1:2 – Grace and peace from Yahweh the Father AND from Yahshua our Savior.

Titus 1:1 – Paul, a servant of Yahweh, AND an Apostle of Yahshua.

Phil.3 – Grace to you, and peace (1) from Yahweh our Father AND (2) from Yahshua Messiah.

Heb.1:1 – Yahweh in times past spoke through the prophets, but in these last days spoke to us by His Son.

Ja.1:1 – James, a servant of (1) Yahweh, and (2) Yahshua.

1 Pe.1:3 – Blessed be the El and Father of our Savior, Yahshua.

2 Pe.1:2 – Grace to you through the knowledge of Yahweh, AND of Yahshua Messiah (two parties).

1 Jn.1:3 – Our fellowship is with the Father, AND with His Son Yahshua the Messiah.

1 Jn.2:1 – If anyone sins, we have an advocate with the Father, Yahshua the Messiah (Father Yahweh & advocate Yahshua (two persons). 2 Jn.9 – Whoever abides in the doctrine of Messiah has BOTH the Father AND the Son.

Jude 1 – Yahweh the Father, AND Yahshua Messiah (two persons).

Jude 4 – Some deny the only Yahweh, AND our Savior Yahshua the Messiah (two persons).

Rev.1:1* – The revelation which Yahweh gave to Himself. No. No. Yahweh did not give the revelation to himself, but to His Son Yahshua the Messiah.

Rev.1:4* – A salutation from two persons: (1) Him who is, who was, and is to come (the eternal Yahweh);

And from Yahshua Messiah the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, etc.(vs.5).

Rev.1:9* – The word of Yahweh and the testimony of Yahshua: Two persons.

Rev.2:8* – The words of him who died (Yahshua). It is impossible for the Father to die, therefore Yahshua is not one and the same person as the Father.

Rev.2:26 – He who overcomes, I (Yahshua) will give power over the nations, even as I myself received power from my Father (vs.27). Two persons: The lesser receives power from the other.

Rev.3:5 – Two persons: one of which will confess our names before the other. Who are these two? Father Yahweh and Son Yahshua.

Rev.3:12* – He who overcomes, I (Yahshua,Vs.11) will make him a pillar in the temple of MY ELOAH; and write on him the name of MY ELOAH; etc. Yahshua's El was someone other than himself.

Rev.3:14 – The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of El's creation. Two persons spoken of: (1) El the Creator, and (2) the one who was created – the True Witness (Yahshua).

Rev.3:21 – Overcomers will sit with me (Yahshua) in my throne, as I overcame and sit with my Father in His throne. Two thrones and two persons are spoken of: (1) the Father and His throne, and (2) the Son and his throne.

Rev.4:2-11 – He who sat upon the throne (Rev.4:2,3,9,10; 5:1,7; 19:4; 20:11; 21:5), was Yahweh, the Almighty El. Yahshua, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, the Lamb who was slain, and who opened the seven seals (Rev.5:2-10); was not Yahweh. He stood before the throne on which the Father (Yahweh) sat: two persons.

Rev.5:11-13 – Praises were given to (1) Him who sits on the throne, and (2) the Lamb who was slain.

Rev.6:16 – Hide us from (1) Him who sits on the throne, and (2) the wrath of the Lamb: Two persons.

Rev.7:9,10 – Salvation belongs to our El, and to the Lamb: Two persons.

Rev.7:17 – The Lamb, now on the throne, on his Father's right hand (Heb.1:3), will be their shepherd; and Yahweh will wipe away all tears: Two persons.

Rev.11:15 – The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Yahweh, and of His Messiah: tw
o persons.

Rev.12:17 – Those who keep the commandments of Yahweh (first person), and who bear testimony of Yahshua (second person).

Rev.14:1,4 – These have the Father's Name written in their foreheads (Greek – Father and Son's name), and are the firstfruits to Yahweh AND the Lamb.

Rev.14:12 – Those who keep the commandments of Yahweh AND the faith of Yahshua: two persons.

Rev.15:3* – Three separate persons are named here: Yahweh, the Lamb, and Moses. If Moss and Yahweh are not one and the same persons, why should we think the Lamb and Yahweh are one and the same person?

Rev.19:4-7 – Four parties are named here: Yahweh the Almighty, The Lamb (Yahshua, the bridegroom), the bride of Messiah, a great multitude.

Rev.20:6 – They will be priests (1) of Yahweh and (2) of the Messiah

Rev.21:9,10 – Three parties: Yahweh, the Lamb, and the bride.

Rev.21:22 – Two parties are named: Yahweh and the Lamb. These are the temple in the New Jerusalem.

Rev.22:1 – The river of life flows from the throne of Yahweh AND of the Lamb (two persons).

Rev.22:3 – No more curse will be there for the throne of Yahweh And of the Lamb will be in the city: two persons.

Conclusion of these thoughts
Brethren, to create only ONE person from these two:

(1) Yahweh the Father (who sits on the throne), and

(2) Yahshua the Son (the Messiah, the Lamb);

Requires too much bending of terms, titles, names, logic, facts, and Scriptures. It is much better to accept the “sincere milk of the Word” (1 Pe.2:2), and “receive with meekness the engrafted Word” of Yahweh (Ja.1:21),

“…which is able to instruct you for salvation through faith in the Messiah Yahshua. For all Scripture given by inspiration of Yahweh is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of Yahweh may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works” (2 Tim.3:16,17 KJV).

One good work which we should continually promote is FAITH; Faith in the following:

(1) Faith in the one Supreme Being who has LIVED ETERNALLY. His Name is Yahweh, the Creator of the heavens and the earh and all things in them.

(2) Faith in Yahweh's Son; Yahshua the Messiah, who DIED to redeem sinners and arose again the third day. He was “declared to be the Son of Yahweh… by his resurrection from the dead (Rom.1:1-4).

Not once (compared to the 107 that proclaim Father Yahweh to be the creator of all things) is it said in Scripture that His son created all things or was a co-creator with Father Yahweh in the beginning. Yahshua never once said that he himself created all thing or was a co-creator with Father Yahweh in the beginning. Yahshua himself proclaimed that it was his Father (and ours) that was the creator of all things (Mattithyah [Matthew] 19:4 &11:25; Yahchanan Mark 10:5-6).

August 28, 2006 at 8:21 pm#26230

Participant

ONE LONE YAHWEH

“That men may know that thou, WHOSE NAME ALONE IS YAHWEH, art the most high over all the earth” (Ps. 83:18 KJV).

Scriptures teach us there is only ONE Deity, only one Supreme Being, and that ONE BEING is Yahweh – Yahweh ALONE. There is no other. When the name Yahweh appears in Scriptures, it is in almost every case accompanied with singular pronouns; i.e., I, me, my, mine, he, him, his, etc. This is also true of the title “Elohim.” Hundreds, perhaps thousands of times Scriptures use singular pronouns with the Name Yahweh and the title Elohim, just as they do with the word “El” – proof there is only ONE Yahweh, who is the ONE true Elohim.

In only a few Scriptures “us,” “we,” and “our” are used with Elohim and Yahweh. It is not reasonable to allow these few plural pronouns to negate hundreds of singular pronouns associated with The Name, or with his titles. Shall we accept the few, and X out the hundreds? Surely the answer is no. Instead, we should search for an explanation for the use of the plural pronouns in these few Scriptures. We have done this, so please ask for these separate studies.

The above Scriptures clearly state there is ONE (only one) Yahweh. Scriptures listed below reveal there is ONE (only one) true El or Elohim. El and Elohim are used interchangeable when referring to Yahweh. Some believe that ONE, when referring to Yahweh Elohim, means TWO or MORE. Question: In the following Scripture is it reasonable to believe t hat ONE signifies ONE (truly) in everything named except “ONE Elohim?”

“There is ONE body and ONE Spirit, just as you were called ONE HOPE that belongs to your calling, ONE Master, ONE faith, ONE baptism, ONE ELOHIM and FATHER of us all, who is above all and through all and in all” (Eph. 4:4-6 RSV).

As notes above, some have the notion there is one of everything, except Elohim, which consists of two Beings. If true, then there are TWO FATHERS as well, because ELOHIM IS THE FATHER. However, “Father” is singular, so Elohim must be understood as singular also. Many Scriptures indicate Yahweh the Father is the only true Elohim, and Yahshua is not included. He is separate and apart, as is indicated by the following declaration:

“ … to the ONLY ELOHIM our Savior, THROUGH YAHSHUA the Messiah our Master, be glory, majesty, dominion, and power, before all time, and now, and forevermore” (Jude 25 Sacred Scriptures – Bethel Edition).

So, dear friends, if Yahshua pre-existed, he was not a Yahweh, since there is only ONE Yahweh. Nor was he a true El or Elohim since there is only ONE TRUE El and ONE TRUE Elohim. If Yahshua pre-existed, was he an angel?

“For TO WHAT ANGEL did Yahweh ever say, ‘Thou art my Son, today I have begotten thee?’” (Heb. 1:5).

“But TO WHAT ANGEL has he ever said, ‘Sit at my right hand till I make thy enemies a stool for thy feet?’” (Heb. 1:13).

Never did Yahweh say to an angel (any angel), “You are my son, sit here.”

1) If Yahshua pre-existed, he was not an angel (Heb. 1:5, 13; 2:5, 16).

2) If Yahshua pre-existed, he was not an El or an Elohim, since there is ONLY ONE TRUE El and ONE TRUE ELOHIM (Rom 16:26).

3) If Yahshua pre-existed, he was not a Yahweh, since there is ONLY ONE true Yahweh (Isa. 45:5, 6).

August 28, 2006 at 8:35 pm#26231