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Wow Adam!
I am really going to check your blog out! You have some really thought provoking studies there. I am checking out Adonai and Adoni (Psalm 110:1) right now.
What do you think of Adon being singular and Adonai being the plural form?
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 11 2006,15:33) You fool! Yahshua was supposed to be our example and he called people fools and and a few other choice words. You would thing that these TRANSLATIONS are contradictory! Catch on? Would you like me to call you the other choice words that Yahshua used against others?
Hi Frank,
They were not in him.
Ah well.I believe that it is foolish to believe that Yahshua pre-existed with Father Yahweh from the beginning and was a co-creator with Him.
I almost got this study done.
Hi Frank,
Then if you abuse those who disagree with you what hope have you of convincing them you are correct? Questionable fruit always causes men to check the origins.Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 12 2006,16:55) Yeah, and I'm not into that “Jesus pre-existed and was a co-creator with God” crap!
To frank4yahwehJohn 6:38-40
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.John 1:15
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' “Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”He claimed to exist, not that he was God.
Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god.John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[ 1:14 Or the Only Begotten] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.It appears to me that you are saying that scripture itself is crap.
All I can see from Unitarians is a whole lot of “the scripture doesn't say what it says” and some clever ways to ignore it.
But this kind of behavious is what Trinitarains are also fond of.
True faith is simple. It was never meant to be exclusively for those with intellectual prowess.
Did Yahshua Create The Heavens And The Earth?
YAHSHUA: DID HE PRE-EXIST?
An Explanation Of Our Views
By Voy Wilks
10/23/90
Did the Messiah pre-exist in some form before he was conceived of Mary, the Jewish woman? Many people believe he did, while many believe he did not. Most if not all of these people seem to rely on the same source of information – the Bible, so why isn't there complete agreement, since all read from the same source? There are several reasons for non-conformity, some of which are as follows:O Background. A person whose church teaches the pre-existence is not likely to question whether this is true or false. Instead, it is accepted as fact. This is true of most religious views. Generally, it is only those doctrines which seem to be “new” which are examined to determine if they are true or false.
O Bias. A preference for or against a doctrine can sometimes prevent a correct analysis of Scripture. This can be caused by a person's background, or by some other consideration. Example: Anti Semitism (hatred of the Jews) can prevent a correct understanding of which is the true day of worship
O Failure. Failure, for whatever reason, to understand the message in Scripture.
O Translation. There is the possibility, in some cases, that the religious views of the translators have influenced their translation.
There are a number of Scriptures which seem to promote the pre-existence of the Messiah. Surely the most powerful of these is Hebrews 1:2.
Hebrews 1:1 & 2
“In many and various ways Yahweh spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets; but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he created the world” (RSV).This indicates the heavenly Father is supreme.
(1) As most English versions read, he authorized the Son, Yahshua, to do the actual work in creating the heavens and the earth and all things in them.
(2) Many believe that Yahshua, in a pre-existant state, was Yahweh's spokesman; a Son spoke for him and did Yahweh's work for him, such as creating the world.
If either of the statements are true – if Yahshua spoke the world into existence – then certainly the Messiah existed before the world existed. Let us now examine Hebrews 1:1,2.
What is a spokesman? “One who speaks in the name and on behalf of another or others” (Readers Digest Great Encyclopedic Dictionary, 1975).
Reviewing Heb 1:1 we see that Yahshua was not Yahweh's spokesman. Instead, the prophets were his spokesmen. Yahweh “spoke to our fathers by the prophets.” Therefore, even if Yahshua pre-existed, he was not the spokesman who contacted “our fathers.” It was, evidently, only in “these last days” that Yahweh “spoke to us by his Son” (Heb 1:1; 1 Pet. 1:20).
Yahshua the Heir
“… but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed HEIR OF ALL THINGS, …” (Heb. 1:2).What does this say? Yahweh appointed his Son (Yahshua) to be his heir – to inherit “all things.” Please keep in mind: A son does not inherit property which he, himself, has worked for. No. He owns that already. This indicates that Yahshua did not, after all, create the world, since he is the heir to his Father's property. Does this agree with other Scriptures? Indeed, yes. Please note the following evidence:
“Hear another parable. There was a householder who planted a vinyard, and set a hedge about it, and dug a wine press in it, and built a tower, and let it out to tenants, and went into a far country. When the season of fruit drew near. he sent his servants to the tenants, to get his fruit; and the tentants took his servants and beat one, killed another and stoned another. Again he sent other servants, more than the first; and they did the same to them. AFTERWARD he SENT HIS SON to them, saying, they will respect my son. But when the tenants saw the son they said to themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him and have his INHERITANCE. And they took him and cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. When therefore the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?” (Mt 21:33-40 Mk. 12:1-7; Lk. 20:9-16).
The following points are clear:
O The Father (Yahweh) was the householder.
O The Father (Yahweh) planted the vineyard.
O The Father (Yahweh) set the hedge, built the tower, and dug the winepress.
O The Father (Yahweh) made the contract with the tenants; that is Israel (Isa. 5:1-7; Ps. 80:8-19).
O The Father (Yahweh) sent his servants (the prophets).
O The Father (Yahweh) sent his son (Yahshua).
O The son (Yahshua) was the heir of his Father's property (the vineyard with all its improvements).
O The Son (Yahshua) was cast out and killed.
Obviously, Yahshua is both the Son and the Heir; not the owner, nor the householder. True, this is a parable, but in order to teach truth, a parable must agree with prevailing conditions. Other Scriptures – Other Scriptures which are not parables – agree with Hebrews 1:2 that Yahshua is the heir of Father Yahweh's property.
“For all who are lead by the spirit of Yahweh are sons of Yahweh. … and if children, then heirs, heirs of Yahweh and FELLOW HEIRS WITH the Messiah, …” (Rom. 8:14,17).
“… for in Messiah Yahshua you are all sons of Yahweh, through faith. For as many as were baptised into the Messiah have put on the Messaih. … And if you are the Messiah's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to the promise” (Gal. 3:26,27,29). So through Yahweh you are no longer a slave but a son and if a son then an heir” (Gal. 4:7).
We inherit the promise made to Abraham: the kingdom (the world, the vineyard), and everlasting life, because Yahshua is the cheif heir. By baptism in his name we, and the ancients, become fellow heirs with the Messiah (Gal. 3:16-19; Titus 3:7; Heb 11:7-10; Acts 20:32; 7:5,6; Rom. 4:13; Eph. 1:3-23; 1 Peter 1:3,4; Rev. 21:5-7).
Remember the mother of James and John? She asked the Savior to grant that her two sons will set, one on Yahshua's right and one on his left in the Kingdom of Yahweh. Yahshua's reply: (the heavenly Father), being the Creator, is owner of all, while Yahshua (his Son) is the heir.
“I will tell of the decrees of Yahweh: He said to me, 'You are my son, today I [Yahweh] have begotten you. Ask of me and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession” (Ps. 2:7-9; Heb. 5:5).
Again, this shows Yahweh as both Father and Creator, and Yahshua as both Son and the Heir. Ephesians 1:3-23 also shows Yahweh to be the Creator, the Father, and the owner of the inheritance. One day Yahshua will receive this inheritance, and make us (the saints, (Jew and Gentile) joint heirs with himself. Again, the following quotation reaveals Yahweh as the provider and owner of the inheritance. Yahshua extends to us a share as joint heirs.
“For every house is builded by someone; but he that built all things is Yahweh” (Heb. 3:4 Bethel Edition).
These Scriptures are more than enough to confirm Yahweh as Creator and Yahshua his Son will one day inherit his Father's property – his Father's creation.
By Whom He Made The Worlds
“Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things,
BY WHOM also he made the worlds; …” (Heb. 1:2 KJV). The RSV reads, “… through whom he created the world.”This very clearly states the world was created By the Son of Yahweh. This Son is Yahshua, of course. However, Scriptural evidence noted above indicates Yahweh did the creating, not Yahshua. Are we to believe the apostles and the Gospel writers wrote two ways, sometimes reporting that Yahweh is Creator, and at other times reporting that his Son is Creator? Indeed no.
More than 100 Scriptures state clearly that
Yahweh is Creator and Maker of heaven and earth (Ex. 20:11). Some of these indicate t
hat no other deity exist (Isa. 44:6). No other deity helped him in his creating acts (Neh. 9:6). Except for the angels, he was alone in the creation (Isa. 45:5-18). These are stated clearly – as clearly as Hebrews 1:2 states that Yahshua made the world.”What shall we do? Do we cancel (erase, throw out) more than 100 Scriptures so that we can accept Hebrews 1:2 instead? Since this Scripture does not in most English versions agree with the 100, we should carefully examine Hebrews 1:2 and, hopefully, discover why it does not agree.
The Word “By”
Yahweh created the world “by” (through) the Son (Heb. 1:2 KJV). The Diaglott says Yahweh created the world “on account of” the Son. Any one of the three (“by,” “through,” or “on account of”) is, technically, a correct translation of the Greek word Di' or Dia. Dia is in the KJV translated several ways, but usually is transalted as follows:By – 243 times; through – 100 times; for – 106 times; because – 24 times; because of – 29 times; for the sake of – 32 times; etc.
The King's Men did not translaate the WORD di' incorrectly in Heb. 1:2. By or through is a correct translation of the WORD, but ONLY IF THE MESSAGE in the sentence agrees, or allows it. But alas, in this case the message of the sentence will not allow this translation.
Reason #1. Heb 1:2a reveals Yahshua to be the heir of what was created.
Reason #2. More than 100 Scriptures show it was Yahweh (not Yahshua) who created the heavens and the earth. Heb. 1:2 must agree with the 100 other Scriptures. For a list of these see our paper, “Who Is the Creator?”
For these reasons, the sentence in Heb. 1:2b must have
originally read like the Diaglott reads today, Yahweh “… in the last of these days spoke to us by a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, ON ACCOUNT OF whom also he constituted the ages; …”Another acceptable translation would be, “… a Son, FOR whom he created the world.”
Many times the King James Version as well as more modern versions translate dia as “for,” “because of,” “therefore” (meaning “for this reason”). For a more detailed layout of the word di' (dia), ask for our paper, “Hebrews 1:2 – Berry.”
This is not to say the the King's Men purposely mistranslated, nor is this to say they were dishonest. Not at all. On the contrary, they no doubt delivered what they believed to be the correct translation of Heb. 1:2. We must realize, however, that all of the King's Men believed the doctrine of the Trinity (one is three, and three are one). Believing this, they saw no contradiction between this Scripture (as they translated it) and the 100 Scriptures which show that Yahweh the Father is truely and personally the Creator of the heaven and earth.
There are at least two other Scriptures in which di' should have been translated for, or on account of. These are Col. 1:16-17 and John 1:10. Let us review these Scriptures, then return to our study in the book of Hebrews.
Colossians 1:16,17
“For by him [Yahshua] wre all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, … all things were created by him and for him” (Col. 1:16,17 KJV).Just as in Heb. 1:2, di' can be translated for, and on account of, as well as by or through. As indicated above, either way is technically correct for this WORD. However, the MESSAGE in this text must decide which is the proper translation. The same is true of the Greek word en (= the Eglish in).
Since Yahweh is the Creator (Heb. 3:4; Ex. 20:11; Mt. 21:33; Mk. 12:7; Lk. 20:14), and Yahshua is the heir, then Col. 1:16,17 SHOULD TELL THE SAME STORY. Dozens of Scriptures in both Tesaments tell us plainly that Yahweh is the Creator, and there is no other El but but him. He alone is the only true El, Eloah, Elohim, and Creator.
Yahshua and the New Testament writers proved everything by Old Testament Scriptures, therefore New Tesament Scriptures should (and originally did) agree with Old Testament Scriptures. The New Testament Scriptures are based on the older ones. This being true, it seems that a more exact reading of Col. 1:16,17, and one which is agreeable to the Greek text, is as follows:
“For in [en = in, to, unto, as well as by] him wre all things created, that are in [en] heaven, and that are on earth, … all things were created on account of [di'] him and for him.”
John 1:10
“He [the Light, Yahshua] was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not” (KJV).As we have discovered above, to agree with other Scriptures, and with the context of the message, a more acceptable reading is as follows:
“He was in the world and the world was made for {di'} [on account of, because of] him, and the world knew him not.”
Look back to the book of Hebrews.
Hebrews 1:8-10
“But unto the Son he sayeth, Thy throne, O G-d, is for ever and ever; a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquityQuote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 12 2006,22:13) No t8, It is the Trinitarian translations that are crap, not Father Yahweh's word.
John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”Quote (t8 @ Aug. 12 2006,10:33) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 12 2006,22:13) No t8, It is the Trinitarian translations that are crap, not Father Yahweh's word.
John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
“Before Abraham Was, I Am.”
The “I am” in John 8:58
Does the phrase “I am” prove Yahshua is Yahweh?
These words, spoken by our Savior in Jn.8:58, have led to much controversy and confusion. Some use this verse to prove the Messiah's pre-existence. Others use it to prove the trinity doctrine. And then there are those who use it to prove Yahshua is the great “I AM” of Ex.3:14.The phrase “I am” is “ego eimi” in Greek. Since the Greek New Testament records Yahshua using “ego eimi” many times, Christian theologians term these sayings, “The I Am's of Jesus.” It is believed that each of these occurrences implies Yahshua's identity as the “I AM” of Ex.3:14. Can this be true? Can our Savior, the Son of Yahweh, actually be the “I AM”?
Ex.3:14-15 reads, “And Elohim said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and He said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. And Elohim said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, Yahweh, Elohim of your fathers, the Elohim of Abraham, the Elohim of Isaac, and the Elohim of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.” Therefore, the “I AM” is identified as “Yahweh.”
And what does Yahweh say in Ps.2:7? “I will declare the decree: Yahweh hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.” Yahweh is the Father of Yahshua. Yahshua is the Son of Yahweh. Yahshua is not Yahweh and the Son is not the Father. Therefore, Yahshua (the Son of Yahweh) cannot be the I AM (Yahweh). That alone should be sufficient to discredit the belief that Yahshua was claiming to be the “I AM.” But let's look into the matter a little farther.
In the Greek Septuagint (LXX), Ex 3:14 reads,
In Septuagint English it reads, “And God spoke to Moses, saying, I am THE BEING; and he said, Thus shall ye say to the children of Israel, THE BEING has sent me to you.”
In KJV English it reads, “And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.”
In John 8:58, “I am” is “” in Greek. As you can see, “” in Ex 3:14 is just the prelude to what the Almighty really wanted the Israelites to know, that is, that He was the “” or “the Being” or “the Existing One”.
If Yahshua truly wanted to tell the Jews he was the great “I am” of Ex 3:14, he would have said, “Before Abraham was I am the Being” or “I am the Existing One”.
It is believed that Jn.8:59 further supports the position that Yahshua is the “I AM.” Why else would the Jews try to stone him? He obviously blasphemed in the eyes of the Jews, a stoneable offense. Or did he? Is the mere utterance of “ego eimi” a blasphemy? Does the use of “ego eimi” automatically identify the speaker as Yahweh, the I AM?
Several individuals aside from Yahshua used “ego eimi” as well. In Lu.1:19, the angel Gabriel said, “Ego eimi Gabriel.” In Jn.9:9, the blind man whose sight was restored by Yahshua said, “Ego eimi.” In Acts 10:21, Peter said, “Behold, ego eimi (I am) he whom ye seek.” Obviously, the mere use of “ego eimi” does not equate one to the “I Am” of Ex.3:14. But perhaps the Savior's use of it was somehow different. After all, he came down from heaven.
If, in fact, Yahshua spoke Greek to the Jews (which I doubt), he used the phrase “ego eimi” at least twenty times and yet, in only one instance did the Jews seek to stone him (Jn.8:58). Yahshua said, “I am the bread of life” to a large crowd in Jn.6:35 & 48, yet no one opposed him. In verse 41, the Jews murmured because he said, “I am (ego eimi) the bread which came down from heaven.” But in verse 42, the Jews questioned only the phrase, “I came down from heaven” and ignored “ego eimi.” The same is true of verses 51 & 52.
In Jn.8:12, 18, 24, & 28, Yahshua used “ego eimi” with Pharisees present (vs.13) and yet, no stoning. He, again, used it four times in Jn.10:7, 9, 11, & 14 with no stoning. Yahshua said to his disciples, “…that…ye may believe that I am (ego eimi)” in Jn.13:19 without them batting an eye.
An interesting account occurs in Jn.18 when the Jews came to arrest Yahshua in the Garden of Gethsemane. When the chief priests and Pharisees said they were seeking Yahshua of Nazareth, Yahshua said to them, “Ego eimi.” At that they fell backward to the ground. It is not made clear why they fell to the ground, but what followed will make it clear that Yahshua was not claiming to be the “I AM.”
After Yahshua's arrest, the Jews took him to Annas first (vs.13). Then they took him to Caiaphas (vs.24) and eventually to Pilate (vss.28,29). A parallel account is found in Mt.26:57-68. Notice, in particular, verse 59. The same men that had fallen backward to the ground were in attendance when the council sought false witnesses against Yahshua to put him to death. Verse 60 says they couldn't find any. Eventually two came forward. Interestingly, they didn't bear false witness about what Yahshua said in Jn.8:58, but about his reference to destroying the temple and building it again in three days. Where were all those witnesses from Jn.8:58?
The point about Mt.26 is, why would false witnesses be sought if they had true witnesses in attendance? The arresting officers heard Yahshua say “Ego eimi.” They could have stoned him right there in the garden for blasphemy, but they didn't. They could have reported the supposed blasphemy to the council, but they didn't. Why not? Because it wasn't blasphemy, nor was it a stoneable offense. He was merely identifying himself as Yahshua of Nazareth.
This brings us back to Jn.8:58. Why did the Jews seek to stone him on that occasion? The context of Jn.8 shows that Yahshua;
1) accused the Jews of “judging after the flesh” (vs.15).
2) said they would die in their sins (vss.21,24).
3) implied they were in bondage (vss.32,33).
4) said they were servants of sin (vs.34).
5) said they were out to kill him (vss. 37,40).
6) implied they were spiritually deaf (vs.43,47).
7) said their father was the devil (vs.44).
8) said they were not of Elohim (vs.47).
9) accused them of dishonoring him (vs.49).
10) accused them of not knowing Yahweh (vs.55).
11) accused them of lying (vs.55).Aside from that, the Jews misunderstood Yahshua's words leading them to believe;
1) that he accused them of being born of fornication (vs.41).
2) Yahshua had a devil (vs.52).
3) that he was exalting himself above Abraham (vs.53). 4) that he saw Abraham (vs.56).Yahshua's words in verse 58 were the culmination of an encounter that was so offensive to the Jews that they couldn't restrain themselves anymore. They simply couldn't take it anymore so they sought to stone him, not because of two simple words, “ego eimi,” but because he was making himself out to be greater than their beloved father Abraham. They sought to stone him illegally.
So what does Jn.8:58 really mean? Although I do not believe we can be certain what Yahshua meant due to a variety of reasons, one being the absence of this passage as it appeared in John's original writing, I offer the following explanation.
Let's look at the context of Yahshua's statement. It
begins in verse 51 with the thought of eternal life; “If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.” The Jews thought since Abraham and the prophets were dead, Yahshua must have a devil. The context is eternal life. Then in verse 56 Yahshua says Abraham “rejoiced to see my day.” He did not say he saw Abraham as the Jews misunderstood. How did Abraham see Yahshua's day? Heb.11:13 says, “These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.” He saw Yahshua's day by faith.Yahshua then resumed the context of his initial conversation by saying, “Before Abraham was, I am.” “Was” is from the Greek “ginomai” meaning, “to come into being, … to arise.” What Yahshua actually meant was, “Before Abraham comes into being (at his resurrection unto eternal life), I will.” Confirmation of this understanding comes to us from Figures of Speech Used in the Bible by E.W. Bullinger, pgs. 521,522. Under the heading “Heterosis (Of Tenses),” subheading “The Present for the Future,” hewrites, “This is put when the design is to show that some thing will certainly come to pass, and is spoken of as though it were already present.” He then lists some examples such as Mt.3:10b, “therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is [shall be] hewn down;” and Mk.9:31a, “For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is [shall be] delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.” Included among this list of examples of Heterosis is Jn.8:58. In other words, although properly written, “Before Abraham comes to be, I am,” with “I am” in the simple present tense, the meaning points to the future, “Before Abraham comes to be, I will.”
Some people believe this verse should be translated, “Before Abraham existed, I existed.” However, neither Greek verb is in the perfect tense (past tense). “Was” is in the aorist tense and “am” is in the present tense. Let's look a little closer at “was.” Concerning the aorist tense, A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament by Dana and Mantey says, “It has time relations only in the indicative, where it is past and hence augmented.” The verb ginomai (was) is in the infinitive, not the indicative. Therefore it should not be translated in the past tense. This same reference says of the infinitive, “The aorist infinitive denotes that which is eventual or particular, …” Abraham will eventually resurrect which is why the Greek uses the aorist infinitive. The meaning is, “Before Abraham comes to be” not “Before Abraham was (or existed).”
In conclusion, Yahshua was not declaring that he is the great “I AM” of Ex.3:14. Yahshua was not declaring himself to be Yahweh. And Yahshua was not declaring his pre-existence. He is the Son of Yahweh and the Son of the great “I Am.”
Author of the original Document is John Cordaro. Visit his Web-site at:
The everlasting Good News of Yahweh to read the Document.This Edition contains Revisions and Additions made by A.O.Y.,Cascade
John 8: 58 “I AM”
You are not fifty years old,” the Jews said to him, and you have seen Abraham! “I tell you the truth, Jesus answered, before Abraham was born, I am.…”The Jews are asking Jesus how can he know Abraham if he is not even fifty years old. Jesus tells them that before Abraham was born, I am. What Jesus is saying is that he is the one spoken of in the prophetic writings, long before Abraham’s time.
Let's look at the verse that started this whole misunderstanding so we can see what Jesus is referring to. John 8: 56 says:
“Abraham your father rejoiced to see my day; he saw it and was glad.”
Compare this verse with Hebrews 11: 13 which is talking about Abraham and his descendants. It states:
“All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw it and welcomed it from a distance.”
What Abraham saw was the fulfillment of God’s promise that the savior would be his descendant (Genesis 12:3), and that line of descent started with their son Isaac. That is why it says “they saw it and welcomed it from a distance.” The Jews misunderstood what Jesus meant at John 8: 56 and made it an issue of Jesus’ age, at which Jesus tried to correct them once again by saying, “Before Abraham was born, I am” (The Messiah). Jesus is saying that before Abraham was even born, God had already planned him as the Messiah in His mind. 1 Peter 1: 20 says:
“He was foreknown before the foundation of the world.”
Remember John 1: 1, “In the beginning was the word” (plan). Also, if you look at a Greek Bible, the two words for I am are the exact two words used for I am in John 8: 12 and John 8: 24. In John 8: 12 Jesus says:
“I am the light of the world.”
In John 8: 24 Jesus says:
“For if you do not believe that I am (he), you will die in your sins.”
John 8: 24 is the continuation of John 8:12. The first I am is obviously referring to Jesus being the light of the world. The second I am is referring to Jesus being the light of the world, the Son of God. These are the exact same words used in John 8:58, yet, no one has taken them to mean that Jesus was claiming to be God. As a matter of fact, the KJV translates the Greek I am in John 8:24 as, “I am he.” In John 4:26, again, the same exact two words are used as in John 8: 58. The Samaritan woman has just said to Jesus,
“I know that the Messiah is coming, the one called the Anointed; when he comes, he will tell us everything.”
Jesus says to her, (the actual Greek translation)
“I am, the one speaking to thee.”
He is who? The Messiah that is coming. The KJV and NIV translate this verse as “I that speak unto thee am he” and “I who speak to you am he.” The I am here is referring to Jesus being the Messiah.
Mark 6:50 is about when Jesus walks on the water towards the disciples who are on a boat, and they think that they are seeing a ghost. The actual Greek reads, “Be of good cheer, I am; be ye not afraid. ” The KJV and NIV translate this verse as,
“be of good cheer: It is I; be not afraid ” and “Take courage! It is I. Don’t be afraid.” None of these I am are taken to mean that Jesus is God. As a matter of fact, they are translated in a variety of different ways, such as, “It is I” and “I am he.” The beggar in John 9:9 when asked if he is the one who used to sit and beg answers them by saying the exact same words, “I am.” Does that mean that the beggar is claiming to be God? Of course not!
So why do people claim that the John 8:58 I am is referring to the Exodus 3:14 I AM? Because of human tradition, trying to make Scripture fit their thought, instead of the other way around. It is the same exact I am as in the rest of these verses and the topic is obviously not Jesus’ deity. If the John 8:58 I am refers to the Exodus 3:14 I AM, then the rest of the other I am should also. But they DON’T.
Another verse referenced is where Jesus is in the Garden, the solders say they are seeking Jesus, and he says “I am”… and they fall backward. Even the “oneness” camps use that verse to prove his diety with the father. But he said “I am” many times and no one fell over (Including J 8:58).
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To Frank4YAHWEH.
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 13 2006,23:56) Does the phrase “I am” prove Yahshua is Yahweh?
No it means that he existed or that he was there before Abraham.Earlier (back one page) I specifically said that it means that he existed and that he wasn't claiming to be Yahweh. However you gave me that “Not Yahweh” explanation anyway.
Quote John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”He claimed to exist, not that he was God.
Did Yahshua Create The Heavens And The Earth?
YAHSHUA: DID HE PRE-EXIST?
An Explanation Of Our Views
By Voy Wilks
10/23/90
Did the Messiah pre-exist in some form before he was conceived of Mary, the Jewish woman? Many people believe he did, while many believe he did not. Most if not all of these people seem to rely on the same source of information – the Bible, so why isn't there complete agreement, since all read from the same source? There are several reasons for non-conformity, some of which are as follows:Background. A person whose church teaches the pre-existence is not likely to question whether this is true or false. Instead, it is accepted as fact. This is true of most religious views. Generally, it is only those doctrines which seem to be “new” which are examined to determine if they are true or false.
Bias. A preference for or against a doctrine can sometimes prevent a correct analysis of Scripture. This can be caused by a person's background, or by some other consideration. Example: Anti Semitism (hatred of the Jews) can prevent a correct understanding of which is the true day of worship
Failure. Failure, for whatever reason, to understand the message in Scripture.
Translation. There is the possibility, in some cases, that the religious views of the translators have influenced their translation.
There are a number of Scriptures which seem to promote the pre-existence of the Messiah. Surely the most powerful of these is Hebrews 1:2.
Hebrews 1:1 & 2
“In many and various ways Yahweh spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets; but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he created the world” (RSV).This indicates the heavenly Father is supreme.
(1) As most English versions read, he authorized the Son, Yahshua, to do the actual work in creating the heavens and the earth and all things in them.
(2) Many believe that Yahshua, in a pre-existant state, was Yahweh's spokesman; a Son spoke for him and did Yahweh's work for him, such as creating the world.
If either of the statements are true – if Yahshua spoke the world into existence – then certainly the Messiah existed before the world existed. Let us now examine Hebrews 1:1,2.
What is a spokesman? “One who speaks in the name and on behalf of another or others” (Readers Digest Great Encyclopedic Dictionary, 1975).
Reviewing Heb 1:1 we see that Yahshua was not Yahweh's spokesman. Instead, the prophets were his spokesmen. Yahweh “spoke to our fathers by the prophets.” Therefore, even if Yahshua pre-existed, he was not the spokesman who contacted “our fathers.” It was, evidently, only in “these last days” that Yahweh “spoke to us by his Son” (Heb 1:1; 1 Pet. 1:20).
Yahshua the Heir
“… but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed HEIR OF ALL THINGS, …” (Heb. 1:2).What does this say? Yahweh appointed his Son (Yahshua) to be his heir – to inherit “all things.” Please keep in mind: A son does not inherit property which he, himself, has worked for. No. He owns that already. This indicates that Yahshua did not, after all, create the world, since he is the heir to his Father's property. Does this agree with other Scriptures? Indeed, yes. Please note the following evidence:
“Hear another parable. There was a householder who planted a vinyard, and set a hedge about it, and dug a wine press in it, and built a tower, and let it out to tenants, and went into a far country. When the season of fruit drew near. he sent his servants to the tenants, to get his fruit; and the tentants took his servants and beat one, killed another and stoned another. Again he sent other servants, more than the first; and they did the same to them. AFTERWARD he SENT HIS SON to them, saying, they will respect my son. But when the tenants saw the son they said to themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him and have his INHERITANCE. And they took him and cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. When therefore the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?” (Mt 21:33-40 Mk. 12:1-7; Lk. 20:9-16).
The following points are clear:
The Father (Yahweh) was the householder.
The Father (Yahweh) planted the vineyard.
The Father (Yahweh) set the hedge, built the tower, and dug the winepress.
The Father (Yahweh) made the contract with the tenants; that is Israel (Isa. 5:1-7; Ps. 80:8-19).
The Father (Yahweh) sent his servants (the prophets).
The Father (Yahweh) sent his son (Yahshua).
The son (Yahshua) was the heir of his Father's property (the vineyard with all its improvements).
The Son (Yahshua) was cast out and killed.
Obviously, Yahshua is both the Son and the Heir; not the owner, nor the householder. True, this is a parable, but in order to teach truth, a parable must agree with prevailing conditions. Other Scriptures – Other Scriptures which are not parables – agree with Hebrews 1:2 that Yahshua is the heir of Father Yahweh's property.
“For all who are lead by the spirit of Yahweh are sons of Yahweh. … and if children, then heirs, heirs of Yahweh and FELLOW HEIRS WITH the Messiah, …” (Rom. 8:14,17).
“… for in Messiah Yahshua you are all sons of Yahweh, through faith. For as many as were baptised into the Messiah have put on the Messaih. … And if you are the Messiah's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to the promise” (Gal. 3:26,27,29). So through Yahweh you are no longer a slave but a son and if a son then an heir” (Gal. 4:7).
We inherit the promise made to Abraham: the kingdom (the world, the vineyard), and everlasting life, because Yahshua is the cheif heir. By baptism in his name we, and the ancients, become fellow heirs with the Messiah (Gal. 3:16-19; Titus 3:7; Heb 11:7-10; Acts 20:32; 7:5,6; Rom. 4:13; Eph. 1:3-23; 1 Peter 1:3,4; Rev. 21:5-7).
Remember the mother of James and John? She asked the Savior to grant that her two sons will set, one on Yahshua's right and one on his left in the Kingdom of Yahweh. Yahshua's reply: (the heavenly Father), being the Creator, is owner of all, while Yahshua (his Son) is the heir.
“I will tell of the decrees of Yahweh: He said to me, 'You are my son, today I [Yahweh] have begotten you. Ask of me and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession” (Ps. 2:7-9; Heb. 5:5).
Again, this shows Yahweh as both Father and Creator, and Yahshua as both Son and the Heir. Ephesians 1:3-23 also shows Yahweh to be the Creator, the Father, and the owner of the inheritance. One day Yahshua will receive this inheritance, and make us (the saints, (Jew and Gentile) joint heirs with himself. Again, the following quotation reaveals Yahweh as the provider and owner of the inheritance. Yahshua extends to us a share as joint heirs.
“For every house is builded by someone; but he that built all things is Yahweh” (Heb. 3:4 Bethel Edition).
These Scriptures are more than enough to confirm Yahweh as Creator and Yahshua his Son will one day inherit his Father's property – his Father's creation.
By Whom He Made The Worlds
“Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things,
BY WHOM also he made the worlds; …” (Heb. 1:2 KJV). The RSV reads, “… through whom he created the world.”This very clearly states the world was created By the Son of Yahweh. This Son is Yahshua, of course. However, Scriptural evidence noted above indicates Yahweh did the creating, not Yahshua. Are we to believe the apostles and the Gospel writers wrote two ways, sometimes reporting that Yahweh is Creator, and at other times reporting that his Son is Creator? Indeed no.
More than 100 Scriptures state clearly that
Yahweh is Creator and Maker of heaven and earth (Ex. 20:11). Some of these indicate that no other deity exist
(Isa. 44:6). No other deity helped him in his creating acts (Neh. 9:6). Except for the angels, he was alone in the creation (Isa. 45:5-18). These are stated clearly – as clearly as Hebrews 1:2 states that Yahshua made the world.”What shall we do? Do we cancel (erase, throw out) more than 100 Scriptures so that we can accept Hebrews 1:2 instead? Since this Scripture does not in most English versions agree with the 100, we should carefully examine Hebrews 1:2 and, hopefully, discover why it does not agree.
The Word “By”
Yahweh created the world “by” (through) the Son (Heb. 1:2 KJV). The Diaglott says Yahweh created the world “on account of” the Son. Any one of the three (“by,” “through,” or “on account of”) is, technically, a correct translation of the Greek word Di' or Dia. Dia is in the KJV translated several ways, but usually is transalted as follows:By – 243 times; through – 100 times; for – 106 times; because – 24 times; because of – 29 times; for the sake of – 32 times; etc.
The King's Men did not translaate the WORD di' incorrectly in Heb. 1:2. By or through is a correct translation of the WORD, but ONLY IF THE MESSAGE in the sentence agrees, or allows it. But alas, in this case the message of the sentence will not allow this translation.
Reason #1. Heb 1:2a reveals Yahshua to be the heir of what was created.
Reason #2. More than 100 Scriptures show it was Yahweh (not Yahshua) who created the heavens and the earth. Heb. 1:2 must agree with the 100 other Scriptures. For a list of these see our paper, “Who Is the Creator?”
For these reasons, the sentence in Heb. 1:2b must have
originally read like the Diaglott reads today, Yahweh “… in the last of these days spoke to us by a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, ON ACCOUNT OF whom also he constituted the ages; …”Another acceptable translation would be, “… a Son, FOR whom he created the world.”
Many times the King James Version as well as more modern versions translate dia as “for,” “because of,” “therefore” (meaning “for this reason”). For a more detailed layout of the word di' (dia), ask for our paper, “Hebrews 1:2 – Berry.”
This is not to say the the King's Men purposely mistranslated, nor is this to say they were dishonest. Not at all. On the contrary, they no doubt delivered what they believed to be the correct translation of Heb. 1:2. We must realize, however, that all of the King's Men believed the doctrine of the Trinity (one is three, and three are one). Believing this, they saw no contradiction between this Scripture (as they translated it) and the 100 Scriptures which show that Yahweh the Father is truely and personally the Creator of the heaven and earth.
There are at least two other Scriptures in which di' should have been translated for, or on account of. These are Col. 1:16-17 and John 1:10. Let us review these Scriptures, then return to our study in the book of Hebrews.
Colossians 1:16,17
“For by him [Yahshua] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, … all things were created by him and for him” (Col. 1:16,17 KJV).Just as in Heb. 1:2, di' can be translated for, and on account of, as well as by or through. As indicated above, either way is technically correct for this WORD. However, the MESSAGE in this text must decide which is the proper translation. The same is true of the Greek word en (= the Eglish in).
Since Yahweh is the Creator (Heb. 3:4; Ex. 20:11; Mt. 21:33; Mk. 12:7; Lk. 20:14), and Yahshua is the heir, then Col. 1:16,17 SHOULD TELL THE SAME STORY. Dozens of Scriptures in both Tesaments tell us plainly that Yahweh is the Creator, and there is no other El but but him. He alone is the only true El, Eloah, Elohim, and Creator.
Yahshua and the New Testament writers proved everything by Old Testament Scriptures, therefore New Tesament Scriptures should (and originally did) agree with Old Testament Scriptures. The New Testament Scriptures are based on the older ones. This being true, it seems that a more exact reading of Col. 1:16,17, and one which is agreeable to the Greek text, is as follows:
“For in [en = in, to, unto, as well as by] him wre all things created, that are in [en] heaven, and that are on earth, … all things were created on account of [di'] him and for him.”
John 1:10
“He [the Light, Yahshua] was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not” (KJV).As we have discovered above, to agree with other Scriptures, and with the context of the message, a more acceptable reading is as follows:
“He was in the world and the world was made for {di'} [on account of, because of] him, and the world knew him not.”
Look back to the book of Hebrews.
Hebrews 1:8-10
“But unto the Son he sayeth, Thy throne, O G-d, is for ever and ever; a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore G-d, even thy G-d, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. And thou, L-rd, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the work of thy hands” (KJV).As the KJV and the RSV read, this certainly indicates the Son (Yahshua) is the Creator of heaven and earth, which means he not only existed at the time of creation, but was also Deity. Once again, however, the translators evidently did not grasp the true message because they were sold on the doctrine of the Trinity. This translation will not stand the test of other Scriptures. The Moffatt Translation reads as follows:
“He [Yahweh, verse 5] says of the Son, 'G-d [the Father, Yahweh] is thy throne for ever and ever, thy royal septre is the septre of equity: thou [the Son] hast loved justice and hated lawlessness, therefore G-d, the G-d, has consecrated thee with the oil of rejoicing beyond thy comrades' – and, 'Thou [Yahweh] didst found the earth at the beginning, O L-rd [Yahweh], and the heavens are the work of thy hands; …'” (Heb. 1:8-10, Moffatt)).
Two quotations from the Psalms are included in these verses.
“Your divine throne endures for ever and ever. You royal sceptre is a sceptre of equity; you love righteousness and hate wickedness. Therefore G-d, your G-d has anointed you with the oil of gladness above thy fellows; …” (Ps. 45:6,7 RSV). It is interesting to read tghe footnote in the RSV: “Your throne is a throne of God, …” (verse 6). Now for the other quotation.
“Of Old thou (Yahweh, Verses 1, 12, 18] dist lay the foundation of the earth and the heavens are the work of they hsnds. They [the heavens and the erath] will perish, but thou dost endure; they will all wear ou kike a garnet. Thou changet them like raiment, and they pass away; but thou [Yahweh] art the same, and thy years have no end” (Ps. 102:25-27 RSV).
As indicated above [with brackets], these verses speak of Yahweh as Creator – not Yahshua. Yahshua's years did, indeed, come to an end. Not so those of the Father, Yahweh. His years never end. He lives forever; past; present, and future. Usually overlooked are the following points:
Hebrews Chapter Two
The writer of the letter of Hebrews was not only concerned about the creation of the past. He also spoke “of the world to come” – the inheritance of the Saints which is yet future (Heb. 2:5).Man (mankind) was for a little while made a little lower than the angels (Heb. 2:6,7; Ps. 8:4-8). Yahshua too (the same as other men, was for a little while made lower than the angels (Heb. 2:9).
Everything was origially put in subjection to mankinf except the plan of salvation, which was olnly later developed through Yahshua, the Messiah (Heb. 2:8,9).
Yahshua “tasted death” for everyone, thus wenhancing the grace of Yahweh toward all men (Heb. 2:9).
“For it was fitting that he [Yahweh], for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make [
Yahshua] the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering.
For he [Yahshua] who sanctifies and those who are sactified have all ONE ORIGIN. That is why he [Yahshua] is not ashamed to call them brethern, saying, I will proclaim thy name [Yahweh's name] to my brethern, in the midst of the congregation I will praise thee” (Heb. 2:10-12; Ps. 22:22 RSV).Do I detect here a statement showing that Yahshua had the same origin as other men? I believe so. About half of the English versions read this way. The word “origin” is not in the Greek, but is implied evidently. This agrees with other statements made in the verses below.
The children (mankind) share in flesh and blood. Yhshua is likewise of the same nature. This was so he could free his brethern who through fear of death were (are) in lifelong bondage (Heb. 2:14,15).
It is not with angels that Yahweh is concerned, but with the descendants of Abraham, therefore he (Yahshua) had to be made like his brethern IN EVERY RESPECT, so that he might become a merciful high priest (Heb. 2:16,17). Another Scripture speaking of Yahshua, reveals that the spiritual body does not come first (as in a pre-existence). No. The PHYSICAL body comes FIRST, and only later comes the SPIRITUAL body (1 Cor. 15:45,46).
He was tempted in everything as we are (Heb. 2:18). If Yahshua had been Deity while on earth, he would have had no temptations.
Yahshua was even more faithful in Yahweh's hous than Moses was. Every hous has a builder. The builder of all things is Yahweh (Heb.3:1-6). To understand all of the book of Hebrews requires careful study.
The one who wrote it admitts it is difficult to understand (Heb. 5:11).
Did Yahshua Pre-exist As An Angel?
“For to what angel did Yahweh say, 'Thou art my Son, today I have begotten thee?'” (Heb. 1:5).The answer is obvious, never at any time, has Yahweh ever said to an angel, “You are my son.” This is emphatically stated, not only here, but in verse 13 as well, “But to what angel has he [
Yahweh]
ever said, 'Sit at my righthand till I make thy enemies a stool for thy feet?'”“For Yahweh never said to an angel, Thou art my Son; today I have begotten thee, …” (Heb. 1:5, New English Bible).
Review
If Yahshua pre-existed, he would have necessity have been a spiritual (spirit) being. This creates a problem, however, as a spiritual being can not die. It is an impossibility (Lk. 20:30-35; Deut. 32:40). Scriptures tell us Yahshua was flesh as we are flesh (2 Jn. 7). He had the
same origin as his brethern (Heb 2:12 RSV). He really and truely died – ceased to live (Heb. 2:14; Acts 2:23; Eph. 1:20).This is powerful evidence that Yahshua did not pre-exist; that he did not live in a former life.” To accept the pre-existence of Yahshua is to accept reincarnation; a superstition of the heathen which is unacceptable to our heavenly Father.
Since Yahweh is the Creator and Yahshua is the heir of that which is created;
Since the physical body comes first and o nly later the spiritual body;
Since a Spiritual body cannot die;
Since Yahshua was never an angel;
Since Yahshua has the same origin as his brethern;
Since Yahshua was subject to death;It seems reasonable to believe that Yahshua pre-existed neither
Before the foundation of the world, nor
Before his conception within Mary.
He did exist in Yahweh's glorious PLAN from before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:5,9-11; John 17:24 RSV).
Hi F4Y,
Of course then is no suggestion in this parable that when the Son was sent he was not existing. The Son existed with God and was sent into the world likewise.
I Jn 4.9 too tells us the only begotten Son was sent into the World.
Indeed the parable shows the opposite of what you are trying to convey, He already had a Son and He sent him after the prophets.
Prophets can be chosen from among men just like servants as they do not own a place in the family, but a son belongs to the family he is born to.
“Hear another parable. There was a householder who planted a vinyard, and set a hedge about it, and dug a wine press in it, and built a tower, and let it out to tenants, and went into a far country. When the season of fruit drew near. he sent his servants to the tenants, to get his fruit; and the tentants took his servants and beat one, killed another and stoned another. Again he sent other servants, more than the first; and they did the same to them. AFTERWARD he SENT HIS SON to them, saying, they will respect my son. But when the tenants saw the son they said to themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him and have his INHERITANCE. And they took him and cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. When therefore the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?” (Mt 21:33-40 Mk. 12:1-7; Lk. 20:9-16).
Hi,
You say
“If Yahshua pre-existed, he would have necessity have been a spiritual (spirit) being. This creates a problem, however, as a spiritual being can not die. It is an impossibility (Lk. 20:30-35; Deut. 32:40). Scriptures tell us Yahshua was flesh as we are flesh (2 Jn. 7). He had the
same origin as his brethern (Heb 2:12 RSV). He really and truely died – ceased to live (Heb. 2:14; Acts 2:23; Eph. 1:20).”
Scripture tells us he emptied himself to become like to us, and like we do, he died.Hi You say
“Man (mankind) was for a little while made a little lower than the angels (Heb. 2:6,7; Ps. 8:4-8)”All mankind is made lower than the angels.
The Son was higher than the angels but joining our human estate was made for a time lower than the angels who, like all creation were made through him.
Only men in the resurrected Christ, the adopted sons of God are now above the angels, who are servants to them in Christ.
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