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I had no business posting someones letters to me. sorry for the confusion i may have caused. I am going to shut up as I think God wants me to , and worry more about myself than others. I can't change them anyway. Peace
I'm going back. It's not this church that will save me, nor will it condemn me. God knows whats in my heart. He knows how much I miss the people I grew up knowing and respecting, and publicly worshipping God and singing hymns. I know that I am not sacrificing Jesus during the prayers before communion. If they think they are then thats their error. I have to do more than nothing, this is too lonely. Nothing in this life is perfect, even the churches. But they do SOMETHING for people and charities and spreading the word of God and promoting it. More than any other institution there is. Peace-Mark
Mark, who's letters did you post:) I see what you did – overwriting. (don't worry, I'v done that!). Haha.
Well, Mark, Jesus was a Jew and went to the synagogues(sp). I guess you can't help the people you love if you aint near them. Hope you are well, Mark.Hey Shimmer! I posted the discussions that I was having with my sister about my differances with the church. She is a leader and the head of the social ministries comittee I am on. I have always talked scripture with her, since highschool days. After I posted them, I felt bad because I didn't ask her first. We have came to the agreement to disagree, but that God can and will make things right, and correct what is wrong. I still won't participate in anything I don't agree with, and I have told them what I feel scripturally they have erred on. The rest is between them and God, which I feel isn't too much longer. Nice to hear from you. Hope you are well!
Peace-MeMark, I'm well thank you. I hope you and your loved ones are well. Because we are in these days, that were spoken of, be carefull. Test the Spirit always. Be led by you heart with prayer and keep your thoughts clean and have strength in God to get you through whatever will be.
Thank you Shimmer. I am much better. I hope this is the peace I have been praying for, and it last. I hope and pray for the same for you and yours. Peace-Mark
Good on you Mark. I'm happy for you. I feel peacefull too.(I'm trying hard to get away from posting… so my posts are short!) Take care Mark.
shimmer and Mark! You both are the nicest members, that I have met on HN….. I have appreciated both of you….. And I am sad you left shimmer….Hopefully you found what you are looking for….
Peace and Love IreneHaha Irene Im still here posting. A bit.
Irene, you have changed so much. Bless you. I respect you lots. Peace and love to you and Georg, and your loved ones Irene.
And yes Mark is quite a character I have really enjoyed posting with him sometimes, as I know you have too.Quote (shimmer @ Sep. 03 2011,07:11) Haha Irene Im still here posting. A bit.
Irene, you have changed so much. Bless you. I respect you lots. Peace and love to you and Georg, and your loved ones Irene.
And yes Mark is quite a character I have really enjoyed posting with him sometimes, as I know you have too.
Wow, your still here, great…. Just come once in awhile, will you??
I hope so….have a nice day……Peace and love IreneHey ya'll! I've been busy with a big job, and have been leaving at the crack of dawn, as it's been around 100 lately. Early in the morning is when I used to see whats going on here. Pleasant suprise seeing both Irene and Shimmer had posted. I love the common ground we share, and appriciate you both. I have learned alot about relating with others with differant experiences than I have had. I love you both. Can't wait to meet both of you on the other side. Love always-Mark
P.S. I am also trying not to get too much into posting, in that I sometimes neglect things when I do. Somewhere in the bible is says moderation is prudence. I need alot of it. I will check to keep up with ya'll.
Quote (mikeangel @ Aug. 07 2011,00:57) I'm going back. It's not this church that will save me, nor will it condemn me. God knows whats in my heart. He knows how much I miss the people I grew up knowing and respecting, and publicly worshipping God and singing hymns. I know that I am not sacrificing Jesus during the prayers before communion. If they think they are then thats their error. I have to do more than nothing, this is too lonely. Nothing in this life is perfect, even the churches. But they do SOMETHING for people and charities and spreading the word of God and promoting it. More than any other institution there is. Peace-Mark
I think the thing to keep in mind it's all about Jesus not a denomination. A evangelical free church convinced me to be christian and a lot of my point of views point in their direction but I never have or will think of myself as a evangelical. I also been to a Episcopal church which I have high disagreements to the point if there was a object that high and you were on it could at least touch a cloud. The number one thing that makes me go to the episcopal church on Wed is because I don't want to feel better than anyone to the point I think they can't worship Jesus with me. I heard some pretty blasphemous stuff in the episcopal church that rivals satanist. I agree with you it's not the church that's going to codemn or save you. this goes back it's not being catholic evangelical, episcopal, or anything else but being christ like and sharing christ with others.Quote (Raziel @ Oct. 11 2011,08:11) Quote (mikeangel @ Aug. 07 2011,00:57) I'm going back. It's not this church that will save me, nor will it condemn me. God knows whats in my heart. He knows how much I miss the people I grew up knowing and respecting, and publicly worshipping God and singing hymns. I know that I am not sacrificing Jesus during the prayers before communion. If they think they are then thats their error. I have to do more than nothing, this is too lonely. Nothing in this life is perfect, even the churches. But they do SOMETHING for people and charities and spreading the word of God and promoting it. More than any other institution there is. Peace-Mark
I think the thing to keep in mind it's all about Jesus not a denomination. A evangelical free church convinced me to be christian and a lot of my point of views point in their direction but I never have or will think of myself as a evangelical. I also been to a Episcopal church which I have high disagreements to the point if there was a object that high and you were on it could at least touch a cloud. The number one thing that makes me go to the episcopal church on Wed is because I don't want to feel better than anyone to the point I think they can't worship Jesus with me. I heard some pretty blasphemous stuff in the episcopal church that rivals satanist. I agree with you it's not the church that's going to codemn or save you. this goes back it's not being catholic evangelical, episcopal, or anything else but being christ like and sharing christ with others.
I totally agree with you-Good postHi Mark, Richard and shimmer! Hope all is well…Was reading some of the posts made here…. I also was wondering is it really OK with God to stay in a Church that teaches wrong doctrines?
To mind comes this Scriptures that saysJhn 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.
I am not going to judge you in any way, but I think when a Brethren loves another Brethren it is out of love I come to you, and want to show you…..its not easy to say to another what to do….
Most Churches today believe in the trinity…. Mark you know all what is wrong, you left and went back?
We certainly cant use that we want to share Christ with people to stay in a Church that even what Richard? Sorry, but I don't get it….Satan has but a little time left, and He is very busy deceiving all….And that my friends I want to make you aware of….With Peace and Love IreneQuote (Pastry @ Oct. 11 2011,09:30) Hi Mark, Richard and shimmer! Hope all is well…Was reading some of the posts made here…. I also was wondering is it really OK with God to stay in a Church that teaches wrong doctrines?
To mind comes this Scriptures that saysJhn 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.
I am not going to judge you in any way, but I think when a Brethren loves another Brethren it is out of love I come to you, and want to show you…..its not easy to say to another what to do….
Most Churches today believe in the trinity…. Mark you know all what is wrong, you left and went back?
We certainly cant use that we want to share Christ with people to stay in a Church that even what Richard? Sorry, but I don't get it….Satan has but a little time left, and He is very busy deceiving all….And that my friends I want to make you aware of….With Peace and Love Irene
I think that to think that ANY church is perfect is wrong. I also think that I worship God as an imperfect person in an imperfect world, in an imperfect church, and I have told them the things I do not agree with,and just like Jeus told the leaders I told them what I felt is wrong. It's up to them. And like Jesus I worship not as the example they give me, but from what God tells me is right and wrong in my heart. He didn't leave, or tell his diciples to either. He said it would be destroyed later. He enjoyed the friendship and love of the ones like him in the temple who had good hearts. Same thing here. My church, and everychurch, and the world will be destroyed, and the elements melted, but now it's all I have to Worship God and sing hymns to him. I love the people there and I love singing, and I love the fellowship of other christian chruchmembers I know. God is my Shepherd. I'm not worried, Peace and love-MarkHi All.
Irene, I dont go to church.
But all, I'm interested in the Eastern Orthodox Church. They claim to have come from Peter. The Catholic Chruch broke away from them. Catholics call the Pope Holy Father, apparently. Is this true? Well Jesus said call no man on earth Father. So it makes me wonder with what Paul was saying, that the man of sin will take his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God?
The Eastern Orthodox dont go under the Pope. Yes, they have icons etc, they have errors, but it makes me wonder. When the letters were writen to the churches in Asia minor, is that church the Eastern Orthodox?
Just a thought.
Hi shimmer! Yes, the Catholic Church does call the Pope Holy Father. Not only that, he is also called VICARIVS FIL[[ DEI which means VICAR of the Son of God…..
Mark said that is not written on the triple crown the Pope wears, but when we went to the Catholic Church from birth til-1984 the Pope did wear one…and it was one the crown then…. With all the people that left the Catholic Church, because the Mass which was in Latin before, changed to English here, and also some started reading the Bible more…..So IMO they did take away with some… Like worship to the Saints etc. The on thing that upset me the most back then is the worship of Maria… and they still believe She stayed a Virgin… The Bible tells a different story….
You do well not to go to any Church, we havenn't either since 1994…peace and love to you and yours IreneMark! Do you go the Mass? Do you participate? You sing with them? So you must stay for the Mass….
And what kind of Songs do you sing???….And what about saying the creed? I miss the fellowship also, but Scriptures tell us to come out of Her my people….And Mark, why did you leave and come back?
I don't understand…. But I said this before to you, I am not judging you, but give you a warning that you are participating, and what does that mean??? Good luck to you Mark, and may God help us all, IreneHey Irene. How you doing?
Has anyone here been to an Eastern Orthodox Church service? If so what was it like?
Some interesting facts:
(More can be found HERE)
It considers itself to be the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church established by Jesus Christ and his Apostles almost 2,000 years ago.
Sin, salvation and the incarnation
At some point in the beginnings of human existence man was faced with a choice: to learn the difference between good and evil through observation or through participation. The biblical story of Adam and Eve represents this choice by mankind to participate in evil. This event is commonly referred to as “the fall of man” and it represents a fundamental change in human nature. When Orthodox Christians refer to Original Sin what they mean is this potential of adoption of evil into human nature. They reject the Augustinian position that the descendants of Adam and Eve are actually guilty of their sin. As a result of this sin, mankind was doomed to be separated from God. This was mankind’s ultimate dilemma. The solution to this problem was for God to effect another change in human nature. Orthodox Christians believe that Christ Jesus was both God and Man absolutely. He was born, lived, died, and rose again by the power of the Holy Spirit. Through God’s participation in humanity, human nature is changed thus saving us from the fate of hell (Orthodox reject the idea that Christ died to give God “satisfaction,” as taught by Anselm, or as a punitive substitute as taught by the Reformers). The effective change included all those who had died from the beginning of time – saving everyone including Adam and Eve. This process, to Orthodox Christians is what is meant by “Salvation”. The ultimate goal is theosis – an even closer union with God and closer likeness to God than existed in the Garden of Eden.
Eschatology
While the Orthodox consider the text of the Apocalypse (Book of Revelation) to be a part of Scripture, it is also regarded to be a mystery. Speculation on the contents of Revelation are minimal and it is never read as part of the regular order of services. Those theologians who have delved into its pages tend to be amillennialist in their eschatology, believing that the “thousand years” spoken of in biblical prophecy refers to the present time: from the Crucifixion of Christ until the Second Coming.
The Orthodox believe that after the Final Judgment:
- *all souls will be reunited with their resurrected bodies
*all souls will fully experience their spiritual state
*having been perfected, the human race will forever progress towards a deeper and fuller love of God, which equates with eternal happiness
*hell, though often described in metaphor as punishment inflicted by God, is in reality the soul's rejection of God's infinite love which is offered freely and abundantly to everyone.Church Building
The church building has many symbolic meanings; perhaps the oldest and most prominent is the concept that the Church is the Ark (as in Noah's) in which the world is saved from the flood of temptations.
Chanting
Orthodox services are sung nearly in their entirety. Services consist in part of a dialogue between the clergy and the people (often represented by the choir or the Psaltis Cantor). In each case the prayers are sung or chanted following a prescribed musical form. Almost nothing is read in a normal speaking voice, with the exception of the homily if one is given. Because the human voice is seen as the most perfect instrument of praise, musical instruments (organs, guitars, etc.) are not generally used to accompany the choir. The church has developed eight Modes or Tones, (see Octoechos)
Incense
As part of the legacy handed down from its Judaic roots, incense is used during all services in the Orthodox Church as an offering of worship to God as it was done in the Jewish First and Second Temples in Jerusalem (Exodus chapter 30). Incense represents the sweetness of the prayers of the saints rising up to God (Psalm 141:2, Revelation 5:8, 8:4).
The Holy Mysteries
According to Orthodox theology, the purpose of the Christian life is to attain theosis, the mystical union of man with God. This union is understood as both collective and individual. St. Athanasius of Alexandria, wrote concerning the Incarnation that, “He (Jesus) was made man that we might be made god (θεοποιηθῶμεν)”. See 2 Peter 1:4, John 10:34–36, Psalm 82:6. The entire life of the church is oriented towards making this possible and facilitating it.
In the Orthodox Church the terms “Mystery” or “The Mysteries” refer to the process of theosis. While it is understood that God theoretically can do anything instantly and invisibly, it is also understood that he generally chooses to use material substance as a medium in order to reach people. The limitations are those of mankind, not God. Matter is not considered to be evil by the Orthodox. Water, oil, bread, wine, etc., all are means by which God reaches out to allow people to draw closer to him. How this process works is a “Mystery”, and cannot be defined in human terms. These Mysteries are surrounded by prayer and symbolism so that their true meaning will not be forgotten.
Baptism
Baptism is the mystery which transforms the old, sinful man into the new, pure man; the old life, the sins, any mistakes made are gone and a clean slate is given. Through baptism one is united to the Body of Christ by becoming a member of the Orthodox Church. During the service water is blessed. The catechumen is fully immersed in the water three times in the name of the Holy Trinity. This is considered to be a death of the “old man” by participation in the crucifixion and burial of Christ, and a rebirth into new life in Christ by participation in his resurrection. Properly a new name is given, which becomes the person's name.
Fasting
The number of fast days varies from year to year, but in general the Orthodox Christian can expect to spend a little over half the year fasting at some level of strictness. There are spiritual, symbolic, and even practical reasons for fasting. In the Fall from Paradise mankind became possessed by a carnal nature; that is to say, he became inclined towards the passions. Through fasting, Orthodox Christians attempt to return to the relationship of love and obedience to God enjoyed by Adam and Eve in Paradise in their own lives, by refraining from carnal practices, by bridling the tongue (James 3:5–6), confession of sins, prayer and almsgiving.
Almsgiving
“Almsgiving” refers to any charitable giving of material resources to those in need. Along with prayer and fasting, it is considered a pillar of the personal spiritual practices of the Orthodox Christian tradition. Almsgiving is particularly important during periods of fasting, when the Orthodox believer is expected to share the monetary savings from his or her decreased consumption with those in need. As with fasting, bragging about the amounts given for charity is considered anywhere from extremely rude to sinful.
Repentance
Orthodox Christians who have committed sins but repent of them, and who wish to reconcile themselves to God and renew the purity of their original baptisms, confess their sins to God before a spiritual guide who offers advice and direction to assist the individual in overcoming their sin. Parish priests commonly function as spiritual guides, but such guides can be any person, male or female, who has been given a blessing to hear confessions. Spiritual guides are chosen very carefully as it is a mandate that once chosen, they mu
st be obeyed. Having confessed, the penitent then has his or her parish priest read the prayer of repentance over them.Sin is not viewed by the Orthodox as a stain on the soul that needs to be wiped out, or a legal transgression that must be set right by a punitive sentence, but rather as a mistake made by the individual with the opportunity for spiritual growth and development.
Marriage
From the Eastern Orthodox perspective, marriage is one of the holy mysteries or sacraments. As well as in many other Christian traditions, for example in the Catholic Church, it serves to unite a woman and a man in eternal union and love before God, with the purpose of following Christ and His Gospel and raising up a faithful, holy family through their holy union. It is referred to extensively in both the Old and New Testaments. Christ declared the essential indissolubility of marriage in the Gospel. Both virginity and marriage have the same reference to the future Kingdom. Jesus said that “when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven” (Mk 12:25). For Orthodox Christian this passage should not be understood to imply that Christian marriage will not remain a reality in the Kingdom, but points to the fact that relations will not be “fleshy”, but “spiritual”. Love between wife and husband, as an icon of relationship between Christ and Church, is eternal.
Monasticism
All Orthodox Christians are expected to participate in at least some ascetic works, in response to the commandment of Christ to “come, take up the cross, and follow me.” (Mark 10:21 and elsewhere) They are therefore all called to imitate, in one way or another, Christ himself who denied himself to the extent of literally taking up the cross on the way to his voluntary self-sacrifice. However, laypeople are not expected to live in extreme asceticism since this is close to impossible while undertaking the normal responsibilities of worldly life. Those who wish to do this therefore separate themselves from the world and live as monastics: monks and nuns. As ascetics par excellence, using the allegorical weapons of prayer and fasting in spiritual warfare against their passions, monastics hold a very special and important place in the Church. This kind of life is often seen as incompatible with any kind of worldly activity including that which is normally regarded as virtuous. Social work, school teaching, and other such work is therefore usually left to laypeople. Ascetics of Orthodox Church are recognized by their long hair, and in case of male monks long beards.
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