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Quote (Phoenix @ Mar. 28 2007,20:43) Quote Consider Isa 55:11 this way. Isa 55:11 so shall My Word (Jesus) be, which goes out of My mouth; it shall not return to Me void, but it shall accomplish what I please, and it shall certainly do what I sent it to do.
The Word of God was sent to our world as described in the previous verse.. Isa 55:10 For as the rain comes down, and the snow from the heavens, and does not return there, but waters the earth, and makes it bring out and bud, and give seed to the sower and bread to the eater;
It is Jesus who has not returned to the Father void
If Oxy isnt here, then, is there someone here that could explain what he meant by this paragraph i have quoted?
Hugs
Hi P,
GOES seems to be happening now
where the Word was WITH God and so HAD gone?Quote (TimothyVI @ Mar. 28 2007,12:52) Hi Oxy,
I don't know if you still hang around here or not.
I find this question interesting.
I am being led to believe that the bible is not the word of God, but instead
a book of stories within which are many of the words of God.
Scriptures are inspired by God. But how do we know which are the inspired
words of God? Who decided that the entire bible was considered scriptures.
Jesus only quoted a few of the old testament scriptures.
Those definitely are inspired. Jesus quoted from the prophets, so they were definitely inspired.
But were all of the 600 laws of Moses truly inspired? Jesus apparently did not think so.The prophet Isaiah did not think so. He said this in spite of the sacrificial laws of Moses.
Isa 1:11 “What are your multiplied sacrifices to Me?” Says the LORD. “I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams And the fat of fed cattle; And I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls, lambs or goats.
Isa 1:12 “When you come to appear before Me, Who requires of you this trampling of My courts?
Isa 1:13 “Bring your worthless offerings no longer, Incense is an abomination to Me. New moon and sabbath, the calling of assemblies– I cannot endure iniquity and the solemn assembly.
Isa 1:14 “I hate your new moon {festivals} and your appointed feasts, They have become a burden to Me; I am weary of bearing {them.}The prophet Jerehiah did not think so. He even hinted that perhaps the scribes lied.
Jer 8:8 “How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made {it} into a lie.Perhaps I am trying too hard to find an excuse for the depiction of God as a maniacal, murdering god of genocide
in the old testament. Who knows? If perhaps the entire bible is not the inspired word of God, then some of it
could have just been written by a superstitious tribe of Hebrews to prove that their God loved only them.I know already that I am going to hear, ” well, which parts of the bible do you proplse that we take out”.
I am not proposing anything. I am merely continuing this thread if anyone has something to offer.Tim
TimYou say…
Quote I am being led to believe that the bible is not the word of God, but instead
a book of stories within which are many of the words of God.I have to admit, I dont think in my 33 years as a follower of Christ I have ever heard a believer with such an agnostic view of the Scriptures.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 29 2007,22:42) You say… Quote I am being led to believe that the bible is not the word of God, but instead
a book of stories within which are many of the words of God.I have to admit, I dont think in my 33 years as a follower of Christ I have ever heard a believer with such an agnostic view of the Scriptures.
I am sure that this is true.
May the Lord have mercy on my soul ,and give me understanding.Tim
Quote (TimothyVI @ Mar. 29 2007,22:52) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 29 2007,22:42) You say… Quote I am being led to believe that the bible is not the word of God, but instead
a book of stories within which are many of the words of God.I have to admit, I dont think in my 33 years as a follower of Christ I have ever heard a believer with such an agnostic view of the Scriptures.
I am sure that this is true.
May the Lord have mercy on my soul ,and give me understanding.Tim
Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.Deu 8:3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.
Is it not by Jesus we have grace and live?
Quote (kenrch @ Mar. 29 2007,23:59) [[/quote]
Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.Deu 8:3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.
Is it not by Jesus we have grace and live?
Thank you Ken,I believe this is true.
But how do we know for sure that
the entire bible, as we have it, is the word of God?
Just look at the confusion on this forum.
Hundreds of people read the same book and come up with totally different ideas about what it meant.I still study it in many of it's versions, because it is the closest thing we have to the words of God.
I am just not certain in my mind that much of the bible has not been edited by man.
I wish it were not true that I feel this way.
Tim
Hi,
We cannot approach the table of the Lord replete.
We cannot be as food faddists selecting tasty morsels.
We must be as gluttons and winebibbers, starving for knowledge.If we are replete who has fed us?
If we select morsels whose understanding are we limiting ourselves to?
If our eyes and our minds are the judge of what is good then we will never attain to the mind of Christ.Quote (TimothyVI @ Mar. 30 2007,11:42) Quote (kenrch @ Mar. 29 2007,23:59) [[/quote]
Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.Deu 8:3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.
Is it not by Jesus we have grace and live?
Thank you Ken,I believe this is true.
But how do we know for sure that
the entire bible, as we have it, is the word of God?
Just look at the confusion on this forum.
Hundreds of people read the same book and come up with totally different ideas about what it meant.I still study it in many of it's versions, because it is the closest thing we have to the words of God.
I am just not certain in my mind that much of the bible has not been edited by man.
I wish it were not true that I feel this way.
Tim
Hi Tim,
A thought occurred to me, and I will bring it to your attention, but first I want clarification on your view of the integrity of the scriptures. When do you think the texts started to become significantly tampered with? For instance, do you believe that the Septuagint tanach that was is use in the apostles day was corrupted?Hi Is1:18,
I am pretty sure that the Septuagint was the version of the Tanach that Paul took for granted was being read by his converts. When Paul said, “All Scripture is inspired by God,” you would naturally expect him to have included in that, all of the books included in the Septuagint, simply because that was unquestionably what his audience would have understood him to mean.
The Hebrew canon was not, however, fully established during the first century, and during the same period in which the Christians were trying to nail down their canon, the rabbis were trying to nail down theirs, as captured ultimately in the Masoretic Text. In the end the rabbis concluded that the books for which we no longer have Hebrew or Aramaic texts (I don't know whether such texts existed then but they don't now) would be excluded from the official Tanach. Meanwhile the Church decided to include the entire Septuagint; this became the Old Testament of most of the Christian world up until the Reformation, and it is still the Old Testament of the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches.
But man continued to add books or take them out depending on what he thinks should be the word of God. There are so many different ideas concerning that, that they can not all be the inspired word of God, can they?
Tim
Quote (TimothyVI @ Mar. 31 2007,12:26) Hi Is1:18, I am pretty sure that the Septuagint was the version of the Tanach that Paul took for granted was being read by his converts. When Paul said, “All Scripture is inspired by God,” you would naturally expect him to have included in that, all of the books included in the Septuagint, simply because that was unquestionably what his audience would have understood him to mean.
The Hebrew canon was not, however, fully established during the first century, and during the same period in which the Christians were trying to nail down their canon, the rabbis were trying to nail down theirs, as captured ultimately in the Masoretic Text. In the end the rabbis concluded that the books for which we no longer have Hebrew or Aramaic texts (I don't know whether such texts existed then but they don't now) would be excluded from the official Tanach. Meanwhile the Church decided to include the entire Septuagint; this became the Old Testament of most of the Christian world up until the Reformation, and it is still the Old Testament of the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches.
But man continued to add books or take them out depending on what he thinks should be the word of God. There are so many different ideas concerning that, that they can not all be the inspired word of God, can they?
Tim
Hi Tim,
The point I wanted to make was Yeshua and the NT writers appeared to hold their scriptures in exceptionally high regard, never questioning their integrity. With regard to the LXX, for instance, the NT writers quoted from it frequently in their writings. Yeshua read from it it, and listened to it being read, in the temple frequently. He even quoted it to Satan in the desert temptation (Matt 4). These are hefty endorsements Tim. The other thing that came to mind was that over and over again in the Bible YHWH makes a point of impressing on readers that His written word was of paramount importance and we are read it, learn it, recieve it implanted and use it. Would He do this knowing that it would become so corrupted as to be useless?“The grass withers, and the flower falls off, but the Word of God abides forever” (1 Peter 1:24-25).
If a $10M mansion was missing one door knob should it be razed to the ground? No. But I get the feeling that you see the Bible this way, it should be disregarded as being considered inspired on account of some translational anomolies. The discrepancies are insignificant, and the essential messages are still intact Tim…
Quote “In 1947, a young shepherd boy searching for his lost goat made one of the greatest manuscript discoveries of all time. In the limestone caves overlooking the northwestern shore of the Dead Sea, he discovered over 900 documents, representing 350 separate biblical and non-biblical works. In one cave alone, 520 texts were found dating as far back as the third century B.C. The scrolls contained copies of every Old Testament book except the book of Esther. Before the scrolls were discovered in 1947, the oldest existing complete manuscript of the Old Testament dated around 900 A. D. One of the Dead Sea scrolls found in cave #1 at Qumran dated at 125 B.C. contains the entire prophecy of Isaiah. This scroll was penned over 1,000 years before any of the manuscripts (Masoretic text) previously possessed. Amazingly, the text of the earlier and later copies were identical in 95% of the text. The other 5% variation consisted of spelling errors, grammar, and punctuation oversights. The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls reveals the remarkable dedication to detail of the Hebrew copyists of the Old Testament Scriptures. Critics and skeptics were shocked at how closely these ancient texts resemble our present-day Bibles. Recent textual research on New Testament manuscripts combined with the discovery of the Dead Sea scrolls demonstrates beyond reasonable doubt the amazing accuracy of the Scriptures.”
http://www.biblefellowship.org/BibleAn….]Quote 3. Variant Readings in the Early Manuscripts. It is quite remarkable to find that in a book the length of the Bible, which consists of sixty-six separate works of great antiquity by a variety of authors, there are only a negligible number of variant readings. In most modern translations these are noted in footnotes and a brief perusal of the New Testament (where these variants generally occur) will soon reveal how few and far between they are, and will also show how authentic the text generally is.
It has been calculated that significant variations amount to about one-thousandth part of the whole, or twenty lines of the entire New Testament. (Cragg, Jesus and the Muslim, p. 119).
Not only are these variant readings very few in number – only a handful, to be exact – but they do not affect the teaching of the New Testament as a whole. Invariably their contents are found repeated elsewhere in the New Testament text. For example Mark 15.28, a variant reading found only in a few ancient manuscripts, reads: “And the scripture was fulfilled which says 'He was reckoned with the transgressors “'. In Luke 22.37, however, a text found in all the ancient manuscripts of Luke's Gospel without variants of any kind, we read that Jesus said “For I tell you that this scripture must be fulfilled in me, 'And he was reckoned with the transgressors for what is written about me has its fulfilment”.
Another typical example is the variant reading found in the parable of the tenants of the vineyard in Matthew's Gospel where Jesus is recorded as saying:
“And he who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; but when it falls on any one, it will crush him”. Matthew 21.44
This text appears likewise only in a few of the ancient manuscripts of Matthew's Gospel, yet it is also found in every manuscript of Luke's Gospel as Luke 20.18. In the same way the woe pronounced on the Pharisees for devouring widows' houses found as variant in Matthew 23.14 appears in every ancient manuscript of Mark's Gospel as Mark 12.40. The mention of a guard who pierced Jesus' side with a spear so that water and blood came out, found as a variant in Matthew 27.49, appears without any variants in John 19.34. There is, even in the other variants, not a single detail which conflicts with the teaching of the New Testament as a whole.For example, scholars assure us that the possibility of any variation from the original New Testament text is now only one to a thousand! And none of the 00.1% possible variations is of any significance in terms of the message which the Bible conveys! (Kateregga and Shenk, Islam and Christianity, p. 116).
There are as in almost all books copied by hand a very few variant readings. These variations of text are entirely questions of detail, not of essential substance, as competent scholars bear witness. (Harris, How to Lead Moslems to Christ, p. 21)The one verse we should perhaps consider in closing is 1 John 5.7 which reads in the King James Version, an English translation of the seventeenth century: “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one”. This text is not even mentioned as a possible variant in more recent transl
ations as it does not appear in any of the early Greek manuscripts and first made its appearance in the Latin Vulgate translation some centuries after 1 John was written. It is probable that it was a marginal gloss of a scribe who noted a comparison between the three witnesses of heaven and the three on earth, the spirit, the water and the blood, mentioned in the next verse (1 John 5.8). This text has been pounced on by Muslim writers who claim that it is the only reference, or at least the most obvious reference, to the Trinity in the New Testament.Once again the addition is not insignificant, for the passage represents the nearest thing to the Christian trinity in the whole of the Bible. (Shafaat, The Question of Authenticity and Authority of the Bible, p. 16).
It is argued that by deleting 1 John 5.7 from modern translations the doctrine of the Trinity has been summarily expunged from the New Testament. This is a typical example of the tendency of Muslim writers to make mountains out of molehills in their endeavours to discredit the Bible. The doctrine of the Trinity has been formulated from the teaching of the New Testament as a whole and was defined before 1 John 5.7 ever appeared in the Vulgate. That verse is a reflection of a teaching already derived from the rest of the New Testament as a whole, it is not the basis for the doctrine.There are specific references to the Triune God in Matthew 28.19 (where we read of “the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit”, the singular implying a clear unity of essence and nature), Ephesians 2.18 (where it is said that we have access to the Father through the Son in the Spirit) and 2 Corinthians 13.14 (which speaks of the grace of the Son, the love of the Father, and the fellowship of the Spirit in one breath), to name but a few examples.
The textual evidences testify to the authenticity of the Christian Bible. The book has over one thousand, two hundred pages, yet the only passages and variant readings found in it, when put together, hardly fill a page! No one can honestly question the integrity of the Bible on the grounds of the manuscript records which have been preserved through many centuries without alteration or corruption.
http://answering-islam.org/Gilchrist/Vol2/7a.htmlBlessings
Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 01 2007,09:59) [/quote]
Hi Tim,If a $10M mansion was missing one door knob should it be razed to the ground? No. But I get the feeling that you see the Bible this way, it should be disregarded as being considered inspired on account of some translational anomolies. The discrepancies are insignificant, and the essential messages are still intact Tim…
[quote
Hi Is 1:18,“If a $10M mansion was missing one door knob should it be razed to the ground?”
No, but I would fix the doorknob.
I do agree with your last sentence though.
That is why I said that I continue to study the
bible in many of it's versions.Thank you for your to help.
Tim
Quote (TimothyVI @ Mar. 30 2007,11:42) Quote (kenrch @ Mar. 29 2007,23:59) [[/quote]
Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.Deu 8:3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.
Is it not by Jesus we have grace and live?
Thank you Ken,I believe this is true.
But how do we know for sure that
the entire bible, as we have it, is the word of God?
Just look at the confusion on this forum.
Hundreds of people read the same book and come up with totally different ideas about what it meant.I still study it in many of it's versions, because it is the closest thing we have to the words of God.
I am just not certain in my mind that much of the bible has not been edited by man.
I wish it were not true that I feel this way.
Tim
Hi Tim,We have a guide, a teacher, the Spirit of God. We have the word however Satan has dabbled in and distorted the word through prideful men.
The problem:
“We” the born again children of God have no patience. “WE” (there is not one that can walk on water) jump to conclusions instead of relying on the teacher that Jesus sent.
Translations:
There are perhaps more translations than denominations which I don't believe is of God. But of the confuser!
The Holy Spirit just recently corrected me with John 17:11.There is obviously a difference in translations.
ASV, CEV,ESV,GNB,GW:
(ASV) And I am no more in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in “thy name which thou hast given me”, that they may be one, even as we are.
DRB,KJV,LITV, MKJV:
(KJVR) And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name “those whom thou hast given me”, that they may be one, as we are.
Which translation is correct? “WE” must have faith and the Holy Spirit. Jesus said ask for the Holy Spirit and our Father will give the Spirit to us.
Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
If I miss the mark I don't worry about it. I do my best that's all I can do that's all that is required. I'm not in competition with no one but Satan. I strive (perhaps too much) for the truth Satan has vowed to keep the truth from me. I know that IF I were to be patient, have faith that the Holy Spirit will reveal the truth “when I'm ready” not when I want.
Sometimes too much meat makes us choke when we are not ready to swollow.
We must consider all opinions from brothers and sisters. Not just shutting them out as though we are the only authority.
Heb 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
The trick I believe is to be humble and not full of pride. Then we will be as children and much more teachable.
Mat 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
Thank you Ken,
That is my problem. I am too impatient.
I also do not seem to clearly know for sure when the Spirit has shown me the truth.
I still question it.Tim
Quote (TimothyVI @ April 02 2007,08:21) Thank you Ken,
That is my problem. I am too impatient.
I also do not seem to clearly know for sure when the Spirit has shown me the truth.
I still question it.Tim
I understand what you mean Tim. Reminds me of a movie when one says “patience is a virtue” and the other replied “not right now it isnt!” because they were about to be attacked by a mob.I pretty much think that excuse applies to me because we are in the last days yet we dont know how soon it is. It could be tomorrow for all we know. And here we are still trying to find the truth lol.
Hugs
PhoenixQuote (Phoenix @ April 02 2007,05:55) Quote (TimothyVI @ April 02 2007,08:21) Thank you Ken,
That is my problem. I am too impatient.
I also do not seem to clearly know for sure when the Spirit has shown me the truth.
I still question it.Tim
I understand what you mean Tim. Reminds me of a movie when one says “patience is a virtue” and the other replied “not right now it isnt!” because they were about to be attacked by a mob.I pretty much think that excuse applies to me because we are in the last days yet we dont know how soon it is. It could be tomorrow for all we know. And here we are still trying to find the truth lol.
Hugs
Phoenix
Hi Phoenix,
I think that I saw that movie.
TimI see that I should have stuck round a while longer. Here is what the Lord has taught me.
All Scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit. Scripture contains the words of God.
Scripture teaches of the Word of God, who was born and called Jesus. This title/name is very significant because Jesus is the promise of God and the fulfillment of that promise. He is the Word of God in that He is the promise of God, but ALSO because God said “Let there be…” and His Word (whom we know as Jesus) went forth and created all things. After His time on earth the Word (Jesus) did not return to the Father void.
Consider this Scripture:
Joh 5:39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life. And they are the ones witnessing of Me,
Joh 5:40 and you will not come to Me that you might have life.Scripture speaks of Jesus as the Word of God. In Him we have life. He is sharper than any two edged sword. He discerns the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Quote (TimothyVI @ April 02 2007,08:21) Thank you Ken,
That is my problem. I am too impatient.
I also do not seem to clearly know for sure when the Spirit has shown me the truth.
I still question it.Tim
Indeed God is slow! At least I think so. Is it from the Holy Spirit? Brother if you have to question it then it was not from the Spirit of God. Like me and others probably from your spirit.WE are impatient beings. Consider how laid back Jesus was. “Don't worry about tomorrow there is enough to worry about today” or some thing like that, right?
James writes: Just who do you think you are saying I'm going to such and such a town and start a business or some thing like that, right?
Jam 4:13 Come now, ye that say, To-day or to-morrow we will go into this city, and spend a year there, and trade, and get gain:
Jam 4:14 whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. What is your life? For ye are a vapor, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.
Jam 4:15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall both live, and do this or that.We must be patient waiting on the LORD. Don't worry if it is urgent God will move quicker than a twinkle in your eye!
Now I will try to heed my own words
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