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Since Nick feels it is his job to ruin threads that disagree with his theology with attacks on my beliefs, vain theories of secrecy, incomplete revelation, then I will bring OP back up. Nick, quit responding unless you have a real answer.
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Eze 18:20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
Eze 18:21 “But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.Exo 32:31 So Moses returned to the LORD and said, “Alas, this people has sinned a great sin. They have made for themselves gods of gold.
Exo 32:32 But now, if you will forgive their sin–but if not, please blot me out of your book that you have written.”
Exo 32:33 But the LORD said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me, I will blot out of my book.Jer 31:30 But everyone shall die for his own sin. Each man who eats sour grapes, his teeth shall be set on edge.
===============================According to Tanakh, each person is responsible for his/her own sins. In each passage above, death is the result of wickedness. Thus, the logical conclusions since (a) one person cannot sins for another (b) each person dies for their own sins is that Jesus was put to death for his own wickedness!
But what did Jesus do? Well
Eze 14:9 And if the prophet is deceived and speaks a word, I, the LORD, have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand against him and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.
In many places Jesus falsely prophecied. He said his return would be soon, during the disciples lifetime, and that the kingdom of heaven was at hand. Both false. In Revelation he supposedly said to John
Rev 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
Who considers almost 2000 years later as “soon”? Again, false prophecy.
Thus we can see that false prophecy is a sin, and each dies for their own sin. According to Tanakh then, Jesus died because he was a false prophet. He also died for declaring he was a king under Roman rule.
Deut 13:1-4 is all about Jesus.
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Deu 13:1 “If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder,
Deu 13:2 and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, 'Let us go after other gods,' which you have not known, 'and let us serve them,'
Deu 13:3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the LORD your God is testing you, to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
Deu 13:4 You shall walk after the LORD your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him.
==================================Jews did not know this “god the father” person or a person who claimed to be the son of G-d. Thus the Jews saw Jesus as making himself out to be a god.
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Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.”Php 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,1Ti 3:16 Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.
Joh 14:19 Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.
Joh 20:28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”
=====================================The last one is so very telling. Jesus did not correct Thomas, he said:
Joh 20:29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
Thus Jesus also died because
Jer 10:11 Thus shall you say to them: “The gods who did not make the heavens and the earth shall perish from the earth and from under the heavens.”
Here is another prophecy about Jesus besides Deu 13:
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Eze 28:9 Will you still say, 'I am a god,' in the presence of those who kill you, though you are but a man, and no god, in the hands of those who slay you?
Eze 28:10 You shall die the death of the uncircumcised by the hand of foreigners; for I have spoken, declares the Lord GOD.”
=================================Jesus died a Roman death on a Roman cross.
Now you know the real reason Jesus died.
Hi Tow,
You say that because prophecies are not fulfilled tomorrow they are evidence that our eternal God did not inspire the prophet?
Hmm
Rather thin do you not think?Hi tow,
Do you really think that man's time or 2000 or 7000 years is important to a God of eternity?A short interlude.
So short.Quote Who considers almost 2000 years later as “soon”? Again, false prophecy. And what of the many prophecies running through “the prophets” of the Hebrew scriptures which speak of the “day of Jehovah” as being “near.”
Some even say it is “very near” and there are many such scriptures.
Quote (david @ Jan. 03 2008,18:57) Quote Who considers almost 2000 years later as “soon”? Again, false prophecy. And what of the many prophecies running through “the prophets” of the Hebrew scriptures which speak of the “day of Jehovah” as being “near.”
Some even say it is “very near” and there are many such scriptures.
List them and we shall discuss them.Besides, “the day of YHVH” is not one specific day, but a day of great judgment. You are hanging your hat on a phrase that can apply to several different events.
Quote Besides, “the day of YHVH” is not one specific day, but a day of great judgment. You are hanging your hat on a phrase that can apply to several different events. Yes, but do you not think they forshadow a much larger “day of Jehovah.”?
AMOS 5:18-20
““‘Woe to those who are craving the day of Jehovah! What, then, will the day of Jehovah mean to YOU people? It will be darkness, and no light, just as when a man flees because of the lion, and the bear actually meets him; and [as when] he went into the house and supported his hand against the wall, and the serpent bit him. Will not the day of Jehovah be darkness, and not light; and will it not have gloom, and not brightness?”ISAIAH 13:9
““Look! The day of Jehovah itself is coming, cruel both with fury and with burning anger, in order to make the land an object of astonishment, and that it may annihilate [the land’s] sinners out of it.”ZEPHANIAH 1:15
“That day is a day of fury, a day of distress and of anguish, a day of storm and of desolation, a day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick gloom,”EZEKIEL 7:19
““‘Into the streets they will throw their very silver, and an abhorrent thing their own gold will become. Neither their silver nor their gold will be able to deliver them in the day of Jehovah’s fury. Their souls they will not satisfy, and their intestines they will not fill, for it has become a stumbling block causing their error.”ZEPHANIAH 1:18
“Neither their silver nor their gold will be able to deliver them in the day of Jehovah’s fury; but by the fire of his zeal the whole earth will be devoured, because he will make an extermination, indeed a terrible one, of all the inhabitants of the earth.””ZEPHANIAH 1:14
““The great day of Jehovah is near. It is near, and there is a hurrying [of it] very much. The sound of the day of Jehovah is bitter. There a mighty man is letting out a cry.”JOEL 1:15
““Alas for the day; because the day of Jehovah is near, and like a despoiling from the Almighty One it will come!”JOEL 2:1-2
““Blow a horn in Zion, O men, and shout a war cry in my holy mountain. Let all the inhabitants of the land get agitated; for the day of Jehovah is coming, for it is near! It is a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick gloom, like light of dawn spread out upon the mountains. “There is a people numerous and mighty; one like it has not been made to exist from the indefinite past, and after it there will be none again to the years of generation after generation.”ISAIAH 2:11-17
“The haughty eyes of earthling man must become low, and the loftiness of men must bow down; and Jehovah alone must be put on high in that day. For it is the day belonging to Jehovah of armies. It is upon everyone self-exalted and lofty and upon everyone lifted up or low; and upon all the cedars of Leb′a·non that are lofty and lifted up and upon all the massive trees of Ba′shan; and upon all the lofty mountains and upon all the hills that are lifted up; and upon every high tower and upon every fortified wall; and upon all the ships of Tar′shish and upon all desirable boats. And the haughtiness of the earthling man must bow down, and the loftiness of men must become low; and Jehovah alone must be put on high in that day.”EZEKIEL 13:5
“YOU men will certainly not go up into the gaps, neither will YOU build up a stone wall in behalf of the house of Israel, in order to stand in the battle in the day of Jehovah.””ZEPHANIAH 1:4-8
““And I will stretch out my hand against Judah and against all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and I will cut off from this place the remaining ones of the Ba′al, the name of the foreign-god priests along with the priests, and those who are bowing down upon the roofs to the army of the heavens, and those who are bowing down, making sworn oaths to Jehovah and making sworn oaths by Mal′cam; and those who are drawing back from following Jehovah and who have not sought Jehovah and have not inquired of him.” Keep silence before the Sovereign Lord Jehovah; for the day of Jehovah is near, for Jehovah has prepared a sacrifice; he has sanctified his invited ones. “And it must occur on the day of Jehovah’s sacrifice that I will give attention to the princes, and to the sons of the king, and to all those wearing foreign attire.”OBADIAH 1
“The vision of O·ba·di′ah: This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said regarding E′dom: “There is a report that we have heard from Jehovah, and there is an envoy that has been sent among the nations, ‘Rise up, YOU people, and let us rise up against her in battle.’””OBADIAH 15
“For the day of Jehovah against all the nations is near. In the way that you have done, it will be done to you. Your sort of treatment will return upon your own head.”ISAIAH 13:6
““Howl, YOU people, for the day of Jehovah is near! As a despoiling from the Almighty it will come.”JEREMIAH 46:10
““And that day belongs to the Sovereign Lord, Jehovah of armies, the day of vengeance for avenging himself upon his adversaries. And the sword will certainly devour and satisfy itself and take its fill of their blood, for the Sovereign Lord, Jehovah of armies, has a sacrifice in the land of the north by the river Eu·phra′tes.”MALACHI 4:5-6
““Look! I am sending to YOU people E·li′jah the prophet before the coming of the great and fear-inspiring day of Jehovah. And he must turn the heart of fathers back toward sons, and the heart of sons back toward fathers; in order that I may not come and actually strike the earth with a devoting [of it] to destruction.””This day is detailed in the Scriptures as a time of battle, a great and fear-inspiring day of darkness and burning anger, a day of fury, distress, anguish, desolation, and alarm.
And, it is often described as “near.”
A sense of urgency is attached to the day of Jehovah by the prophets, who repeatedly warned of its nearness.
“The great day of Jehovah is near. It is near, and there is a hurrying of it very much.” (Zep 1:14) “Alas for the day; because the day of Jehovah is near.” “Let all the inhabitants of the land get agitated; for the day of Jehovah is coming, for it is near!”—Joe 1:15; 2:1, 2.
IT IS TRUE, THAT from certain features of the prophecies, and in view of subsequent events, it appears that the expression, “the day of Jehovah,” at least in a miniature way, referred to different times of destructive judgment that occurred long ago at the hands of the Most High.
For example, Isaiah envisioned what would befall unfaithful Judah and Jerusalem on “the day belonging to Jehovah of armies,” which was coming “upon everyone self-exalted and lofty” among them. (Isa 2:11-17) Ezekiel addressed himself to the unfaithful prophets of Israel, warning that they would in no way serve to fortify their cities “in order to stand in the battle in the day of Jehovah.” (Eze 13:5) By the mouth of his prophet Zephaniah, Jehovah foretold how he was about to stretch out his hand against Judah and Jerusalem, giving special attention so that not even the princes or the sons of the king would escape. (Zep 1:4-8) As the facts show, that “day of Jehovah” came upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem in 607 B.C.E.
However, the Scriptures point forward to yet another “day of Jehovah.”
After the restoration of the Jews to Jerusalem following the Babylonian exile, Jehovah caused his prophet Zechariah (14:1-3) to foretell “a day . . . belonging to Jehovah” when he would gather not merely one nation but “all the nations against Jerusalem,” at the climax of which day “Jehovah will certainly go forth and war against those nations,” bringing them to their end. The apostle Paul, under inspiration, associated the coming “day of Jehovah” with the presence of Christ. (2Th 2:1, 2) And Peter spoke of it in connection with the establishment of ‘new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness is to dwell.’—2Pe 3:10-13.Security and safety during the great day of Jehovah should concern everyone. After asking, “Who can hold up under it?” Joel says, “Jehovah will be a refuge for his people.” (Joe 2:11; 3:16) The invitation is graciously extended to all, but few avail themselves of this provision of refuge by following Zephaniah’s counsel:
: “Before the statute gives birth to anything, before the day has passed by just like chaff, before there comes upon you people the burning anger of Jehovah, before there comes upon you the day of Jehovah’s anger, seek Jehovah, all you meek ones of the earth , who have practiced His own judicial decision. Seek righteousness, seek meekness. Probably you may be concealed in the day of Jehovah’s anger.”
Quote (david @ Jan. 03 2008,19:14) Quote Besides, “the day of YHVH” is not one specific day, but a day of great judgment. You are hanging your hat on a phrase that can apply to several different events. Yes, but do you not think they forshadow a much larger “day of Jehovah.”?
Whether they foreshadow or not, the fact is, Jesus' supposed prophecies were more specific. “The day of YHVH” was typically tied to certain periods of Jewish history. So foreshadowing is just an apologetic answer.We are to have a sense of urgency for the day of Jehovah which is described as “near.” Perhaps to God, who views one day as a thousand years, the day of Jehovah is near.
Quote (david @ Jan. 03 2008,19:21) This day is detailed in the Scriptures as a time of battle, a great and fear-inspiring day of darkness and burning anger, a day of fury, distress, anguish, desolation, and alarm. And, it is often described as “near.”
A sense of urgency is attached to the day of Jehovah by the prophets, who repeatedly warned of its nearness.
“The great day of Jehovah is near. It is near, and there is a hurrying of it very much.” (Zep 1:14) “Alas for the day; because the day of Jehovah is near.” “Let all the inhabitants of the land get agitated; for the day of Jehovah is coming, for it is near!”—Joe 1:15; 2:1, 2.
IT IS TRUE, THAT from certain features of the prophecies, and in view of subsequent events, it appears that the expression, “the day of Jehovah,” at least in a miniature way, referred to different times of destructive judgment that occurred long ago at the hands of the Most High.
For example, Isaiah envisioned what would befall unfaithful Judah and Jerusalem on “the day belonging to Jehovah of armies,” which was coming “upon everyone self-exalted and lofty” among them. (Isa 2:11-17) Ezekiel addressed himself to the unfaithful prophets of Israel, warning that they would in no way serve to fortify their cities “in order to stand in the battle in the day of Jehovah.” (Eze 13:5) By the mouth of his prophet Zephaniah, Jehovah foretold how he was about to stretch out his hand against Judah and Jerusalem, giving special attention so that not even the princes or the sons of the king would escape. (Zep 1:4-8) As the facts show, that “day of Jehovah” came upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem in 607 B.C.E.
However, the Scriptures point forward to yet another “day of Jehovah.”
After the restoration of the Jews to Jerusalem following the Babylonian exile, Jehovah caused his prophet Zechariah (14:1-3) to foretell “a day . . . belonging to Jehovah” when he would gather not merely one nation but “all the nations against Jerusalem,” at the climax of which day “Jehovah will certainly go forth and war against those nations,” bringing them to their end. The apostle Paul, under inspiration, associated the coming “day of Jehovah” with the presence of Christ. (2Th 2:1, 2) And Peter spoke of it in connection with the establishment of ‘new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness is to dwell.’—2Pe 3:10-13.Security and safety during the great day of Jehovah should concern everyone. After asking, “Who can hold up under it?” Joel says, “Jehovah will be a refuge for his people.” (Joe 2:11; 3:16) The invitation is graciously extended to all, but few avail themselves of this provision of refuge by following Zephaniah’s counsel:
: “Before the statute gives birth to anything, before the day has passed by just like chaff, before there comes upon you people the burning anger of Jehovah, before there comes upon you the day of Jehovah’s anger, seek Jehovah, all you meek ones of the earth , who have practiced His own judicial decision. Seek righteousness, seek meekness. Probably you may be concealed in the day of Jehovah’s anger.”
Nothing in Zec 14:1-3 about the day being near.Sorry, but no cigar.
Quote (david @ Jan. 03 2008,19:23) We are to have a sense of urgency for the day of Jehovah which is described as “near.” Perhaps to God, who views one day as a thousand years, the day of Jehovah is near.
That myth was made up by Peter when it became apparent that Jesus was not going to return in his lifetime. So he had to make up some story that made it look like Jesus' prophecies about returning soon could mean almost any time period.More lies to make up for the first lies.
Indeed David,
Ps 90
4For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.
It is still today for you tow.
If today you hear his voice harden not your heart.Actually, I am wrong. It is a twisted Christian interpretation that is wrong!
This is what it says:
2Pe 3:8 But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Christians twist Peter's saying into believing 1000 years= 1 day when Peter was merely reflecting back to
Psa 84:10 For a day in your courts is better than a thousand elsewhere. I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of wickedness.
So Peter (hopefully, I actually liked Peter for some reason) was saying that one day in G-d's presence would be better than 1000 years elsewhere.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 04 2008,12:28) Indeed David,
Ps 90
4For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.
It is still today for you tow.
If today you hear his voice harden not your heart.
ahem,Ps 90
4For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.Quote That myth was made up by Peter Quote Actually, I am wrong. That's ok, Tow. We all make mistakes. The important thing is to learn from them, and move on.
PSALM 90:4
“For a thousand years are in your eyes but as yesterday when it is past, And as a watch during the night.”Basically, Tow, you believed Peter was making something up because you are biased towards Jesus. Hence, Peter was wrong and making up a myth.
But oops, turns out he was quoting a thought from the Hebrew scriptures.
And I don't think Peter was quoting Ps 84 as you say. If anything it seems more likely that it was Ps 90, as Nick points out.
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