Why all the killing?

[david]

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Why is god's punishment for disobedience the death penalty?

It would be unloving and unjust towards those who don't misuse their free will to allow such ones to exist. God's purpose for the earth has always been to have an earth of happy people who truly love him and want to obey him, as children would obey a father.

Jehovah’s acts of punishment include the Flood in Noah’s day, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, and the elimination of the Egyptian army in the Red Sea.

Regarding such acts of punishment by God, the apostle Peter wrote: “He did not hold back from punishing an ancient world, but kept Noah, a preacher of righteousness, safe with seven others when he brought a deluge upon a world of ungodly people; and by reducing the cities Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them, setting a pattern for ungodly persons of things to come.”—2 Peter 2:5, 6.

A vital aspect of goodness is that it does not condone badness in any way.

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For example, in 2 Samuel 6 and in Chronicles we read that God kills Uzzah for trying to stop his ark from falling off a cart. While perhaps there are details we don't know, this is the reason recorded, and I think it is open to a great deal of question what divine “law” produced the death penalty for what would seem to be a helping act. He would seem to be unpredictable and petulant!

You say he would seem unpredictable. Is it unpredictable to say: 'You touch this and you die' and then to carry that out when someone touches it? (Nu 4:15, 19, 20)

Keep in mind that Uzzah should have known better. The Ark was associated with Jehovah’s presence. The Law specified that it was not to be touched by unauthorized individuals, explicitly warning that violators would be punished by death. (Numbers 4:18-20; 7:89) Therefore, the transfer of that sacred chest was not a task to be treated lightly. Uzzah evidently was a Levite (though not a priest), so he should have been familiar with the Law. Besides, years earlier the Ark had been moved to the house of his father for safekeeping. (1 Samuel 6:20–7:1) It had stayed there for some 70 years, until David chose to move it. So from childhood on, Uzzah had likely been aware of the laws regarding the Ark.

Jehovah can read hearts. Since his Word calls Uzzah’s deed an “irreverent act,” Jehovah may have seen some selfish motive that is not expressly revealed in the account. Was Uzzah perhaps a presumptuous man, prone to overstep due bounds? (Proverbs 11:2) Did leading in public the Ark that his family had guarded in private give him an inflated sense of self-importance? (Proverbs 8:13) Was Uzzah so faithless as to think that Jehovah’s hand was too short to steady the sacred chest that symbolized His presence? Whatever the case, we can be sure that Jehovah did what was right. He likely saw something in Uzzah’s heart that caused Him to render swift judgment.—Proverbs 21:2.

[michaels]

Quote (Stu @ Sep. 20 2007,05:36)

Hi michaels ++” God still shows thru with his love for he never changes,and he will forgive who he will,the true heart of repentance availth much. The OT god is very different from the NT one.  God kills over 2,000,000 people in the Old Testament.  How many die in the NT?  Fewer than a handful?  Was God showing his love as he smote his way through the Middle East? ++” where you speak of that our God of love gave a death penalty,for there is always repentance with the father ,he is just waiting for us to repent and come to him,its men who made the death penalty by takeing it into their own hands and judgeing others,and this is sin for God said not to kill, so if you see someone sining and you go and judge them to stone them,then you are sinning by killing,then you must be killed acording to mens law,so this only brongs an endless sycly of death as one thinks he is more ritches than another so kills the other for his sin,this is satans way not Gods. You claim to have been saved through the application of the death penalty to a Jewish man 2000 years ago.  In the light of what you have written, what value does that have?  You are quite happy to worship a mass murderer who says do as I say, not as I do? Stuart

me dont worship a murderer,for my God is love not a murderer,he says do as i do, not do as i say,for God never changes,he has no shadow of turning,let all men be liars and God the truth.moses and all these men that were under the death penalty clearly followed satan ,not God the FATHER,for the father is love,and he has never changed,can the truth lie?no,men are the liars,including moses.if a sin is a sin and God has none then he cant break his own law.if God is a liar ,and murderer,for all sin is eaqual.he would have to cast himself into the eternal fire,God can not contradict himself so be very carful where you atribute God to be speaking,for men many times said the LORD said kill,yet there lord was satan.just look when david brought that abomination ,the ark back,as soon as someone touched it satan snaped and killed him,is this the fruit of God,is God quick to anger,would God truly be upset ,like oh no you touched my fake ark that makes me look like God ,die!!,well as you know satan was a murderer from the begining.why would GOD even want a fake thing like this,when he has real cheribs,satan is such a joke trying to pretend to be God, the man of sin sitting in the temple of God pretending to be God declairing himself to be God,acts 7:43 and amos 5 :25-27 clearly says who they worshiped for 40 years,satan, the host of heaven,hmmm this fallen angel with Gods name in him.me dont believe God spoke after ex chapter 23.so clearly my God is not a liar does not contridict himself and is not a murderer,when God turned he left this angel to test them,yet this angel wanted to be God,God clearly said in ex 23 that there enemies would not be able to show thier faces,but only their back, read ex 33: 18-23 this angle could only show his back as he declaired the name of the lord,right before this in ex 32 :27 soon as moses came down from speaking with the angel,he said the LORD says,everyone kill your brother,hmmm,if you notice latter even moses could not show his face either for he was the enemy of israel.they say oh well he glowed with Gods preasence ,me would say satans preasence for it says satan comes as an angel of light,did jesus glow so much he had to ware a vail,after all he had more of Gods spirit than any,ever before or after,hmmm.jesus says there is (one) who will acuse you even moses in whom you trust,yet it also says satan the accuser of the breathern was cast to earth with all his angels,hmmm is there any love in accuseing,no this is not of God. yet the whole world is blind and still follows after the traditions of moses there god.even in jesus time ,even the men who wrote of jesus were clearly followers of moses,not God.

[Stu]

++”It would be unloving and unjust towards those who don't misuse their free will to allow such ones to exist. God's purpose for the earth has always been to have an earth of happy people who truly love him and want to obey him, as children would obey a father.

Does god hate atheists? If so why did he create what would seem to be “god genes” that appear to make some skeptical and others devout. If the grand scheme is to have an Earth of happy (and compliant) people, why did he create free will at all? Sounds like a total cop-out of a philosophy – you can do what you like but if you don't do it our way then expect death!

What kind of decent father causes this response in his “son”:

(Matt. 27) My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Stuart

[Stu]

++”You say he would seem unpredictable. Is it unpredictable to say: 'You touch this and you die' and then to carry that out when someone touches it? (Nu 4:15, 19, 20)

OK, Uzzah must have known. On what principle of justice is death the punishment for touching things? Our natural justice (the kind we have written in our genes and passed on in our cultures for 100,000s of years) would surely find that this is an arbitrary divine execution. Add the hypocrisy of a god that dictates a commandment against killing.

Stuart

[Not3in1]

Hi Stu,

I'm going to be taking a break from HeavenNet for a month or two, but I wanted to get back to you on this topic.

You know, I've been doing some praying on this, and also asking my sister what she thinks – we have come to the conclusion that it is impossible to please God without faith.

If you look in any concordance of a Bible, you will see that there are almost as many ref's for “faith” listed as there are under “love.” I believe they both go hand-in-hand. At any rate, you must first believe that God exists and that he cares for you before you can begin to imagine anything else about him – including “Why all the killing?”

While this may seem like a cop-out answer, it's all I can give you at this time. I will be pondering this during my break, and maybe I will have more insight when I return? But I wanted to get back to you, and thank you for being here. I pray that you will receive a super-natural gift from God. Something that will awaken your spirit to know that you are his creation; something that will convince you that God is real and he loves you.

God bless you, Stu!
Mandy

[942767]

Hi Stu:

You say:

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My aside about agnosticism was a philosophical one – you are, unless you can provide physical evidence for the existence of such a god.

I am not an agnostic Stu because I know for a fact that God is a reality and that the testimony regarding His Son Jesus is true.  I know this because God's Spirit witnesses with my spirit that I am his son.  The evidence to me and those who knew me before my conversion experience and those who know me now are aware of the changed life.  People look for happiness in all the world has to offer, but I have found that the only way to be truly happy is to be in a right relationship with God. I am not bound up with the guilt of a sinful life, but I have been set free from all of that through what God has done for me through my Lord Jesus, His Son and his Christ.  My life is open before God. I don't have to hide anything that I do in my daily life. And I have no fear of death.

It is true that I walk by faith and not by sight in that I do not see Jesus physically.  You are the one who apparently  needs pysical evidence to convince you that God is a reality and that His Word is true.  What kind of evidence would convince you?  There are various personal testimonies in Christendom.  Some people have been delivered from drugs or Alcholism through the power of God.  Others have a testimony of a physical healing.  Many of the prophecies in the scriptues have been fulfilled.  One of these is the fact that the Nation of Israel exists as a Nation again.  The Word of God has accurately predicted that this would happen as part of end time events.

Then you say:

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From your answer above, I can only conclude that you don't necessarily think Jesus did have to die on the cross.

No, I think that it was necessary for him to die the way that he did in that he had to be tempted in every way in order to overcome sin.  This includes the the temptation to deny his Faith in God when men threatened Him with death if he did not do what they said.  In that he obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross, he can pray that God will forgive even those who delivered him up to be crucified and those who actually nailed him to the cross.  Actually, all of humanity had a part in crucifying him, in that all have sinned.  

And as a Christian striving to obey the Commandments of God that came to humanity from God through him, I make mistakes, and since he has overcome sin and death and he is alive forever more, he can pray asking God to forgive me when I make a mistake, otherwise I would not be able to overcome sin and death.

Next you say:

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Your post orbits very much around the idea of the need to obey laws, with punishment a motivating factor.  There are many Christians in the world who will defy the laws of a nation if they feel they are unjust or “ungodly”.  Would you be one of them?  Would you then deserve the punishment of the state if exercising conscience? The bigger question is why don't such anarchic religious folk also question the laws laid down in the bible?  The savage God of the Old Testament is one of the most unjust of all fictional characters – doesn't some of the OT god's actions need serious ethical questioning?

While it may be true the motivation for some to be reconciled to God and obey God's law, may be to avoid being punished, my motivation for obeying him is out of my love for him in that he has forgiven me all of my sins.  I do know that if I practice sin wilfully having knowlege of the truth I will be punished.  But I do not want to sin.  As I said before sin is detrimental to me and to those that I would sin against, and so why should I want to do something that is hurtful to me and to others.  All of God's laws are meant for the good of humanity.  And God says the following:

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1 Co. 2 9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

This promise sounds pretty good to me.

As Christians, the following scripture states that we should obey governments:

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Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained F53 of God. 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. 5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. 6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

In the society that I live, I have the freedom to worship God and obey God's commandments or if man had tried to deny me that freedom, or to force me to deny my faith, then I would be defiant.  If society chose to punish me for this, then I would have to accept the punishment.

I do admit, that some to the actions taken by God in the Old Testament are difficult to understand, and I have had to ask Him for understanding many a time.  The example that you mention relative to Uzziah in Samuel 6 is difficult to understand.  But JFB commentary states the following:

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3. they set the ark of God upon a new cart–or a covered wagon This was a hasty and inconsiderate procedure, in violation of an express statute Numbers 7:9, 18:3).

And so, If they had followed God's instructions for transporting the ark of the covenant, the incident would have never happened.  Apparently, it was David's fault.  Also, just because a person may have died, it does not mean that he won't be resurrected from the dead when the Lord comes for the church.  There is another incident where many Israelites died because a mistake that David made.

It is true that there are many things that are difficult to understand in the scriptures, but when I lack understanding, I ask God for understanding knowing that there has to be an explanation.  I know God to be a God of love, but He is also a God of justice.

Finally you say:

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I am growing more convinced that religion is a way that some people strive to achieve a sense of justice in a world where there often isn't much.  If you invent a friend in the sky (even a petulant and violent one) to whom can be attributed reasons for apparent injustices then maybe some find it easier to live their lives.  That in itself would not make it true, though.

As I said, at one time I was an agnostic too, but I thank my God that I have come to the knowlege of the truth. No, not an invention, but a wonderful God who loves me so much that He gave His Only Begotten Son, that I might have the priviledge an honour of being a son of the Most High God.  My prayer is that you will also come to the knowledge of the truth.

If there is any way that I can help you, please let me know.

God Bless

[Laurel]

Quote (942767 @ Sep. 19 2007,14:51)

Hi Stu: Before February 1980, although I had been taught about the existence of God being brought up by parent the were Catholic, and although I had been married in an assembly of God church, and although at this time I was a member of a Southern Baptist church, I guess I would have been considered an agnostic.  But in February 1980, when my wife was going to leave me and take my eight year old son with her, I prayed to God in prayer saying “Lord, if you are there, I would like my wife and I to remain together if it be thy will, but nevertheless, not my will by thine be done.  He heard me from heaven and baptized me with the Holy Spirit revealing that He indeed is a reality and that the testimony regarding His Son Jesus is true.  My wife left me for three months but she returned, and in January of the coming year, we will have been married 43 years.  And so, because God dwells within my body, testifying that He is a reality and that the testimony regarding his Son is true.  I have written my personal testimony in depth on this website if you are interested. While I respect you for sharing your beliefs, I could not possibly be swayed to ever agree with you because of the testimony that God has given me.  But as I said, I was an agnostic at one time too. When you see the life that Jesus lived while he was here on earth, you have seen God's character manifested through his life.  I believe that you ask why did Jesus have to die for us.  The scripture states that the “wages of sin is death”, which means spiritual death or separation from God, and also means physical death.  Through perfect obedience to God's Word, Jesus did not sin, and, therefore, he overcame the penalty for sin.  We who are born again Christians may die physically, but we will recieve a spiritual body when Jesus comes for the church. Why did God make salvation available for us in this way?  First, all of humanity have sinned.  There are some who have done worse than others.  There are some that my even be considered good people, but all of us have made mistakes.  And so, salvation can not be earned by any one of us through perfect obedience. If there were some who obeyed  perfectly there would boasting.  This is something God has done for us by providing Jesus to be the propitiation for our sins.  There is not boasting because all of us have sinned.  Secondly, God calls into a relationship with us.  We have a free will, and we can be reconciled to him if we desire, but we do not have to serve him if we do not want to serve him.  God does not want any one to serve him if they do not want to serve him.  He will not force any one to serve Him. If a person chooses not to serve God, a person will be held accountable for the life that he lived in this body.  He will be judged according to his works because a person has knowledge of good and evil. Sin is detrimental to us and is detrimental to those who we sin against.  All of God's Word is meant to deliver us from all of this hurt that we cause our selves and others through sin.  God is not willing that any man should perish, but again, he has allowed this world with all of its evil to give every man an opportunity to be reconciled to him freely. And after we are born again, Christians we strive to obey God's Word but we make mistakes, but when we repent we are forgiven.  It is wonderful to know that we are not condemned when we make mistakes.  The simplicity of the gospel is to love God by keeping his commandments and to love others by treating them as we would want to be treated whether or not they treat us that way. I agree there are many things in the Old Testament that are hard to understand.  For the most part, those things that you refer to killings in the Old Testament, are judgments against these people for sin.  People then, as well as now, had the opportunity and a free will to either serve God or not. There is a lot of symbolism in the Old Testament.  For example, Canaan land which was given to Abraham and his descendants and became the nation of Israel is symbolic of this whole world which will be made anew for God's children.  It will be the land of Israel.  The scripture states that there will be a new heaven and a new earth wherein dwells righteousness. I hope this helps.

94bishop,
I really enjoyed reading this. These words truely did not come from you, you were inspired to write it. Very nice.

Laurel

You don't have to have a title to be an ispiration.

[Stu]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 21 2007,07:33)

Hi Stu, I'm going to be taking a break from HeavenNet for a month or two, but I wanted to get back to you on this topic. You know, I've been doing some praying on this, and also asking my sister what she thinks – we have come to the conclusion that it is impossible to please God without faith. If you look in any concordance of a Bible, you will see that there are almost as many ref's for “faith” listed as there are under “love.”  I believe they both go hand-in-hand.  At any rate, you must first believe that God exists and that he cares for you before you can begin to imagine anything else about him – including “Why all the killing?” While this may seem like a cop-out answer, it's all I can give you at this time.  I will be pondering this during my break, and maybe I will have more insight when I return?  But I wanted to get back to you, and thank you for being here.  I pray that you will receive a super-natural gift from God.  Something that will awaken your spirit to know that you are his creation; something that will convince you that God is real and he loves you. God bless you, Stu! Mandy

Hi Not3in1

Enjoy your break. Please don't pray for me now that you have told me! It will only harm me!

Stuart

[Stu]

Hi 942767

++”I am not an agnostic Stu because I know for a fact that God is a reality and that the testimony regarding His Son Jesus is true. I know this because God's Spirit witnesses with my spirit that I am his son. The evidence to me and those who knew me before my conversion experience and those who know me now are aware of the changed life.

The criteria you apply to decide what is a fact are not even third-rate compared to the criteria used by science. If you can claim the above as fact then you should also be happy with the fact that the fairies at the I bottom of my garden that I worship, because they bring me so much happiness and keep the weeds down, are also factual.
I’m afraid testament, no matter how heartfelt, has little place in the world of real facts.

++”And I have no fear of death.

So what? Most atheists who have thought about it clearly do not “fear death” either. In fact, they have even less reason to fear it.

++”It is true that I walk by faith and not by sight in that I do not see Jesus physically. You are the one who apparently needs pysical evidence to convince you that God is a reality and that His Word is true. What kind of evidence would convince you?

All the fossils having appeared at the same time in history (they didn’t), no microwave radiation left over from a 14 billion-years-ago big bang (it’s there), some, even tiny mention by Roman diarists of the miracles or slaughters that the bible claims to have happened around the time of Jesus (apart from Josephus (debatably), they don’t even mention Jesus!), some evidence of a world-wide flood around the supposed time of Noah (local flooding yes, world-wide there is no evidence), maybe even an eye-witness account of Jesus being resurrected (there’s not one).

++”Many of the prophecies in the scriptues have been fulfilled. One of these is the fact that the Nation of Israel exists as a Nation again. The Word of God has accurately predicted that this would happen as part of end time events.

Are you familiar with the concept of self-fulfilling prophesy? Tell me that there is no major campaign in the US to bring on the deluded fantasy world described in Revelation.
Please give me one single biblical prophesy even 1% as good as when an astronomer predicts a lunar eclipse to the nearest minute.

++”No, I think that it was necessary for him to die the way that he did in that he had to be tempted in every way in order to overcome sin. This includes the the temptation to deny his Faith in God when men threatened Him with death if he did not do what they said. In that he obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross, he can pray that God will forgive even those who delivered him up to be crucified and those who actually nailed him to the cross. Actually, all of humanity had a part in crucifying him, in that all have sinned.

You say Jesus had to die yet you do not laud those who killed him? You say all have sinned. In my worldview sin is a politically invented concept, and original sin is a nasty doctrine to beat good people over the head with. Would you, holding ambitions to be a church leader, have the cruelty within you to tell a little girl that her little friend, tragically killed in an accident, will go to hell because she was born a sinner and had not been baptised, or “received the lord”?

++”And as a Christian striving to obey the Commandments of God that came to humanity from God through him, I make mistakes, and since he has overcome sin and death and he is alive forever more, he can pray asking God to forgive me when I make a mistake, otherwise I would not be able to overcome sin and death.

You don’t fear death. Why do you need to overcome it?

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1 Co. 2 9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
++”This promise sounds pretty good to me.

It sounds like a Nigerian financial scam to me.

++”In the society that I live, I have the freedom to worship God and obey God's commandments or if man had tried to deny me that freedom, or to force me to deny my faith, then I would be defiant. If society chose to punish me for this, then I would have to accept the punishment.

Well that is honest of you, and fair enough. Would you accept the death penalty for touching someone’s ark?

++”I do admit, that some to the actions taken by God in the Old Testament are difficult to understand, and I have had to ask Him for understanding many a time.

The Fairies tell me to buy more fertiliser. What does your God say to you?

++”It is true that there are many things that are difficult to understand in the scriptures, but when I lack understanding, I ask God for understanding knowing that there has to be an explanation. I know God to be a God of love, but He is also a God of justice.

Haven’t we also established that he is an unpredictable, petulant bully with a quick temper and a passion for slaughter?

++”My prayer is that you will also come to the knowledge of the truth.

The means by which you access the truth, may I suggest, do not work. Mathematics, with its absolute proofs, and science with its requirements of making prediction and falsifiability do actually produce things that really, demonstrably work. They tell us the facts, and in my interpretation, the closest we can get to truth.

Stuart

[charity]

Hi stuart

[Laurel]

Stu,
It has been my observation that people who have Elohim in their lives, who look up to Himas a Father, are more successful, and less stressed out. They are healthier and happier. Those people children, are also more grounded and happy.

Those people, young and old, who do not have Elohim in their lives, have more problems. They lie, steal, threaten others, become alchoholics, and abusers of children and others. They are unhappy, and unsettled, abrasive, and cocky, men with men, women with women etc.

Yes, these are general descriptions, and there are always exceptions. I have never know a single human being who comitted suicide, except because they risked their own life to save another life.

In YHWH our Elohim (God), we have a strength that is not possible without Him.

People who truely know our Father in heaven, believe that Y'shua is their Messiah, the Son of Elohim and they make it their ambotion to follow Him.

I know it is hard to find people like that in todays world. They are out there though. You will know them by their fruits, the Bible says.

Lastly I would like to say that Judgment day is closer thatn ever before. As human being we are sinners, it is plain. There is however an escape for us from judgment to the second and final death. We realize that we are not perfect and there has only been One who is called Perfect. Y'shua Messiahthrough the grace of our Father in heaven was born of a virgin. This in itself is just one of the Scriptures written about Himmore than 500 years before it was made to happen.

There is no way possible by the simple calculations of odds that the things revealed to the prophets in the Old Testament section of Scripture, could have happened without the might hand of our Creator. There were thousends of witnesses in His time on earth.

The Book the Bible the Torah, the prophetic writings, the messianic writing have stood the test of time. That can only be possible with the mighty hand of the Creator.

You can deny Him forever, but come jugment day you will be without excuse. So says YHWH.
Laurel

[Stu]

Hi Laurel

++”It has been my observation that people who have Elohim in their lives, who look up to Himas a Father, are more successful, and less stressed out. They are healthier and happier. Those people children, are also more grounded and happy.

My observation differs. Some religious folk are so bound up in measuring their every deed against scripture that either they don’t live much of a life, or they persist with a cycle of “sin” then “forgiveness”, suffering constantly the dissonance between the life lived and the life they are told they should be living.

++”Those people, young and old, who do not have Elohim in their lives, have more problems. They lie, steal, threaten others, become alchoholics, and abusers of children and others. They are unhappy, and unsettled, abrasive, and cocky, men with men, women with women etc.

How is it then that believers are 40 times more likely to be imprisoned than atheists?

++”In YHWH our Elohim (God), we have a strength that is not possible without Him.

What strength? Obviously not to stay out of prison, nor avoid “sin”.

++”… You will know them by their fruits, the Bible says.

Bananas, apparently!

++”Lastly I would like to say that Judgment day is closer thatn ever before. As human being we are sinners, it is plain.

I do not judge myself by your standard of “sin”, so please speak for yourself. Are we supposed to be sitting round waiting for yet another round of violence and inconsistent judgements by the “loving” one? For how long have religious leaders been saying that judgement day is not far off? A couple of millennia?

++”There is however an escape for us from judgment to the second and final death. We realize that we are not perfect and there has only been One who is called Perfect.

You refer to the perfect Homocidal Maniac who slaughtered over 2,000,000 (some calculate 32,000,000), including at one point the drowning of almost all of his “perfect creation”?

++”Y'shua Messiahthrough the grace of our Father in heaven was born of a virgin. This in itself is just one of the Scriptures written about Himmore than 500 years before it was made to happen. There is no way possible by the simple calculations of odds that the things revealed to the prophets in the Old Testament section of Scripture, could have happened without the might hand of our Creator.

And virgin birth is a myth invented centuries after it was alleged to have happened, stealing from the myth of Mythras, or one of the many other mythologies that claim a “virgin” birth of a messiah. It is quite telling that you write “made to happen”. I can prophesise a visit to the supermarket at a particular time of a particular day then “make it happen”. Have I done anything miraculous in this?

++”There were thousends of witnesses in His time on earth.

Yes, but not one single unequivocal eye-witness account has been recorded, even thought the Romans were fanatical diarists. There is a serious case to be made that the Jesus of the NT is entirely fictional.

++”The Book the Bible the Torah, the prophetic writings, the messianic writing have stood the test of time. That can only be possible with the mighty hand of the Creator.

What test of time have these books actually withstood? Chaucer’s Canterbury Tales have stood the test of time for at least half of the lifetime of the NT but that does not make them anything more than good fiction. Have they relied on the “creator” for their longevity?

++”You can deny Him forever, but come jugment day you will be without excuse. So says YHWH.

How about if I tell Him that it made no difference whether I lived my life by “His Word” or not, because his nature is to punish trivial offenses by death and forgive serious matters; to tempt a man to kill his son, to allow masses of children to die every day in third world countries, even though many of them would have been baptised and led into faith in him, and that I can’t see how he, in his abject hypocrisy, has any ethical right to judge others?

Stuart

[Laurel]

Wow Stu,
I can can see, you must be a real man in your own mind. Only a real man would stand so firm and defend his own heart so agressivly. You have been thoughtfully considering from your enlightened perspective what, and who, and why. A true philosopher of the world. Unfortunately the only light shining on your mind is blocked by a “dense grey matter.”

Reality is very hard for men to grasp sometimes. Not because they don't have the guts to grasp it, that comes naturally to men, the hard part is learning how to serve. A man can not serve rightly unless he becomes a servant. A task wich you have not gave your heart and soul to learn.

Men like you cause disruption in this world. Women are made to serve. Women will not serve a man who is not leading by example. Men like you are the reason, women like the Queen of Heaven were and still are worshipped.

It is much easier for most men, to use their God given strength, for play or to dominate rather than for marching through life as the tender warriors they were created to be. Sit back and let the world fall to pieces, because that's just the way it is.

That is a cop-out!

Laurel

[Stu]

Hi Laurel

++” Unfortunately the only light shining on your mind is blocked by a “dense grey matter.”

So if I remove my brain then I can seek your path?

++”Reality is very hard for men to grasp sometimes. Not because they don't have the guts to grasp it, that comes naturally to men, the hard part is learning how to serve. A man can not serve rightly unless he becomes a servant. A task wich you have not gave your heart and soul to learn.

What is worship-worthy about the OT god? Why does he have such a change of heart in the NT? Does having himself judicially executed because he broke his own rules make him a more wholesome deity? Laurel, you can serve a mass murderer if you wish but don’t judge me (or my gender) as having personal inadequacies because I don’t kneel down to imaginary (and hypocritical) friends in the sky.

++”Men like you cause disruption in this world. Women are made to serve. Women will not serve a man who is not leading by example. Men like you are the reason, women like the Queen of Heaven were and still are worshipped.

What disruption have I caused? Who says women are made to serve? The same book that says the first woman was made from a rib? 🙂 Should we all follow the example of the OT god and smite for touching arks?

++”It is much easier for most men, to use their God given strength, for play or to dominate rather than for marching through life as the tender warriors they were created to be. Sit back and let the world fall to pieces, because that's just the way it is.

Hmmm. I wonder if you have had an unfortunate experience to write this. There certainly are lazy men in the world, as there are lazy women too. Not all non-believing men are slovenly couch potatoes though. Since this is the only life, an atheist has more motivation to get off the couch and get involved in it.

++”That is a cop-out!

I’m not sure what standard you are judging me against here. This thread is about the viciousness of the OT god. Do you have an opinion on why such a being would need to have people murdered at every turn?

Stuart

[Laurel]

Stu,
Actually, the answer to the question about your brain is well, part of it. We have an intense desire to keep ourselves alive no matter what. The part we have to let go is the “self.”

Scripture teaches that women were formed from men, more speficically man's rib. The rib cage protests the mans heart and vital organs. So Elohim took away one of the bars of that cage and opened man up to create a woman.

The woman is to be to a man, that rib, that protection for his heart. The way we are instructed to be that woman is to submit to our man. Only then can the man really feel comfortable in alowing her to be there next to his heart, being the last important piece of him.

You can condemn people who calim to be Christain all day, it means nothing to me. Most folk who claim they are Christain, do not take the time to learn what it means to act like one. They go to church once a week for 45 min. and claim to be righteous.

Do not base your understand on men. You will always get disappointed in the ling run. Scripture warns us just that way. We are to trust in YHWH only.

No man sinned by the hand of God. Man dies because man made the choice to sin. We were warned, were were taught by example, we have the ability to see Him face to face. We are without excuse. We cause our own demise, by being selfish. The things we do wron affect those around us, even those we cherish most in this world.

The ark story you are refering to, was written for an example of how our disobedience effects those near and dear to us. Elohim put a protection around His ark, that if any man should touch it without His express permission, that person would die! Once He gives His Word, He never takes it back. Our Father in heaven stands by His Word NO MATTER WHAT.

So, in placing the ark on an ox cart, David transgressed the Word, the command of YHWH. When the cart began to stagger, out of sheer instinct to protect it, that man died on the spot. I think He was a hero myself. He risked his life to protest His Father's ark.

On the other hand, the man who said to put the ark on an ox cart inevitably learned the hard way, that he should have obey the Word of Elohim, and then had to bear the blood of the man he caused to sin.

Death is the result of sin, now and always. It will never change. As long as there is sin, there is death. We were warned.

Laurel

[Stu]

Laurel have you seen Ingmar Bergman's film The Seventh Seal?

(In case not have a look at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seventh_Seal)

The portrayal of medieval Europe is an amalgam of ideas and should not be viewed as historical, but the ideas used reflect realities. From Wikipedia: “The witch-burning … can be viewed as archaic rituals which aim at the purification of the community through sacrifice; violence is used to stabilize the order.”

The view of humanity that you portray above I think is a recipe for the brutal and ignorant theocracy that rules the simple and violently short lives of the people, as portrayed in the film. Would you swap the “knowledge of man” that is modern science and pluralistic western values – including widespread skepticism – for the 14th century, with its almost universal (at least on the surface) devotion to god, and with its plagues and wars?

Stuart

[942767]

Hi Stu:

Relative to the following:

Quote

++”I am not an agnostic Stu because I know for a fact that God is a reality and that the testimony regarding His Son Jesus is true. I know this because God's Spirit witnesses with my spirit that I am his son. The evidence to me and those who knew me before my conversion experience and those who know me now are aware of the changed life. The criteria you apply to decide what is a fact are not even third-rate compared to the criteria used by science.  If you can claim the above as fact then you should also be happy with the fact that the fairies at the I bottom of my garden that I worship, because they bring me so much happiness and keep the weeds down, are also factual. I’m afraid testament, no matter how heartfelt, has little place in the world of real facts.

To you my testimony may not be a fact that may satisfy you, but to me and to those who knew me before my conversion experience and after it is a fact.  I also mentioned that many have personal testimonies of physical healings, I believe that these are verifiable facts.  

Either I am telling you the truth or I am lying to you.  Whatever you choose to believe.

You say:

Quote

++”And I have no fear of death. So what?  Most atheists who have thought about it clearly do not “fear death” either.  In fact, they have even less reason to fear it.

Why then do I see those, who profess not to believe that there is a God, when there is a life threating event such a hurricane, all of a sudden begin praying for God to protect them?

And relative to the following:

Quote

++”It is true that I walk by faith and not by sight in that I do not see Jesus physically. You are the one who apparently needs pysical evidence to convince you that God is a reality and that His Word is true. What kind of evidence would convince you? All the fossils having appeared at the same time in history (they didn’t),  no microwave radiation left over from a 14 billion-years-ago big bang (it’s there), some, even tiny mention by Roman diarists of the miracles or slaughters that the bible claims to have happened around the time of Jesus (apart from Josephus (debatably), they don’t even mention Jesus!),  some evidence of a world-wide flood around the supposed time of Noah (local flooding yes, world-wide there is no evidence),  maybe even an eye-witness account of Jesus being resurrected (there’s not one).

I must admit that I must do a little more studying relative to the flood in Noah's day as described by the bible.  Perhaps, you can enlighten me on your views.  I do however believe the biblical account that there was a flood.  The ark is symbolic by which eight people were saved in that day is symbolic of the body of Christ by which people will be saved in this last day.  The figure eight is symbolic of a new beginning.  After the flood, it was a new beginning for humanity.  The curse on the ground that caused it spring forth thorns and briers which was part of God's judgment to Adam for disobedience was lifted and the world was repopulated through the three sons of Noah.  When a person accepts, Jesus as Lord, and is born again, it is a new beginning for that individual in that all of his sins have been washed away by the blood of the Lord, and that person is now in the ark of safety, the body of Christ.

The scriptures indicate that there would be skeptics.  I will quote the following:

Quote

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting F10 unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Relative the following:

Quote

++”Many of the prophecies in the scriptues have been fulfilled. One of these is the fact that the Nation of Israel exists as a Nation again. The Word of God has accurately predicted that this would happen as part of end time events. Are you familiar with the concept of self-fulfilling prophesy?  Tell me that there is no major campaign in the US to bring on the deluded fantasy world described in Revelation. Please give me one single biblical prophesy even 1% as good as when an astronomer predicts a lunar eclipse to the nearest minute.

There were many events that led up to the Nation of Israel becoming a nation again.  Some of these, as you seem to say, may have tiggered some to want to give the Jews a homeland.  Most noteably the holocost.  And so, you might believe that this was a “self-fulfilling” prophecy because of this, but there were some things like “the six day war” which make me believe that this was not just a “self-fulfilling” prophecy.

The following prophecy may be one that might interest you:

Quote

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish F68 the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built F69 again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined

I am currently reading a little book entitley “Y'shua” by Moishe Rosen in which he states the following relative to the fore-mentioned prophecy:

“The Hebrew word for 'week' used in the above scripture is shavauh, which means 'a period of seven'.  It could mean a seven of any thing, but here we can understand from the context and external evidence regarding the entire book of Daniel that the term means a unit of seven years, and that the prophecy deals with seventy times seven years, or 490 years.  The word authorizing the rebuilding of Jerusalem probably refers to the Edict of Artaxerxes, in about 445 B.C.E.  That brings us to the first half of the first century of the Common Era.  But during the nineteenth century, a British scholar, Sir Robert Anderson, sought to perform much moe refined calculations in effort to pinpoint the intended date.  In his book 'THE COMING PRINCE', he explains that a year in Jewish calculations at the time of Daniel was 360 days.  With that in mind, let's trace his fascinating exercise.  The Messiah, according to Daniel, will come 173,880 days after Artaxerxes' decree because the 69 weeks of verse 25 amount to 483 years, which we then multiply by 360 days (483 x 360 = 173,880).  In this connection, it is better to take the passage as reading 'seven weeks and threescore and two weeks' rather than breaking it up as in the above translation.  The date of Artaxerxes' decree was March 14, 445 B.C.E. because the first day of Nisan (Nehemiah 2:1-6) fell on March 14 in 445 according to the Royal Observatory in Greenwich, England.  Anderson firgures the imprecise 'in the month of Nisan' to be the first day because the Mishnah explains that the first of Nisan 'is a new year for the computation of the reign of kings and for festivals'.

Anderson sets the day for Jesus' entry to Jerusalem as April 6, 32 C.E.(in the gospel of)Luke (he) said Jesus began His ministry in the fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar, whose reign began in 14 C.E.  Most scholars agree that Jesus ministry continued for three years, which brings us to 32 C.E.  (The gospel of) John (12:1) says Jesus went to Bethany 'six days before the Passover' and that he entered Jerusalem the 'next day' (12:12).  Passover is always 14 Nisan, which according to the Royal Observatory, fell on Thursday, April 10, 32 C.E..  Thus Jesus had arrived at Bethany April 4, which was a Friday.  His meal Lazarus at Bethany must have been a Sabbath meal.  That means 'the next day' could not have been the Sabbath, when Jesus and his disciples would have rested, but instead, Sunday, April 6, 32 C.E.  So, we ask, was Sunday April 6, 32 C.E. exactly 173,880 days from Artaxerxes decree on March 14, B.C.E.?  By counting we can discover that, in terms of the Julian calendar by which we operate, it is 477 years and 24 days.  However, we must deduct one year because there was no year '0' between 1 B.C.E. and 1 C.E.  That leaves 476 years and 24 days which amounts to 173,764 days (476 x 365 + 24 = 173,764).  Leap years add 119 days to that (476 divided by 4 = 119) which brings us to 173,883 days. Than is remarkably close to the 173,880 days we figured in Daniel, but not exactly the same.  Undaunted, Anderson notes that the Julian calendar is still slightly inaccurate to the true solar year.  The measure of this imprecision is 1/128.  That is, the Julian calendar year is 1/128 of a day longer than a true solar year.  Therefore we omit leap years every 128 years on our calendar.  During a period of 483 years, as in Daniel's sixty-nine weeks, there were three omissions.  Hence we may subtract three days from our total and arrive at precisely the same number with which we began, 173,880.  So it is possible to figure Daniel's seventy weeks less one to the exact day that Jesus entered Jerusalem on the back of a donkey.  Daniel also speaks of the anointed one's (Hebrew mashiah, or Messiah) being cut off.  The Hebrew word yikaret implies a sudden violent end, which corresponds to Jesus crucifixion.  If it could be self-fulfilling to ride into Jerusalem on a donkey, it is much harder to arrange the exact day-especially if to be consistent, it means that you'll have to arrange for your own execution as well!  

Immediately after that, we read of “the people of the prince who is to come” who will destroy the city and the sanctuary.  This corresponds remarkably with the unprecedented destruction wrought upon Jerusalem by the Roman legions of Titus in 70 C.E.

Even if one were to totally avoid the startling evidence of these computations, on fact stands crystal-clear in this passage-the Messiah had to come before the destruction of the Temple and the Holy city.  If Jesus is not the Messiah, what figure in his generation was?”

Joshephus wrote about Jesus, and so, I hope this satisfies your request for one prophecy to match those attributed to science.

Relative to what you say below:

Quote

++”No, I think that it was necessary for him to die the way that he did in that he had to be tempted in every way in order to overcome sin. This includes the the temptation to deny his Faith in God when men threatened Him with death if he did not do what they said. In that he obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross, he can pray that God will forgive even those who delivered him up to be crucified and those who actually nailed him to the cross. Actually, all of humanity had a part in crucifying him, in that all have sinned. You say Jesus had to die yet you do not laud those who killed him?   You say all have sinned.  In my worldview sin is a politically invented concept, and original sin is a nasty doctrine to beat good people over the head with.  Would you, holding ambitions to be a church leader, have the cruelty within you to tell a little girl that her little friend, tragically killed in an accident, will go to hell because she was born a sinner and had not been baptised, or “received the lord”?

I believe that the doctrine of “original sin” is a misunderstanding of scripture.  The definition of sin is that “it is the transgression of the law”.  A child is born in innocence and does not sin until whenever they are tempted and transgress the laws of God.  Parents are responsible for the child.  The children of born again Christians are saved if they should die before the time that they are able to decide for themselves whether or not they want to serve God.  Children of unsaved parents will die but they will not be judged.  In other words, there is no child that is going to hell.  The parents of those who are unsaved are responsible for the child and they will be judged according to their works.

As for my aspirations.  God has through visions and prophecy shown me that he will use me as a Bishop or an overseer in the church in this last day.  On the 26th of August, the Pastor of the church, where I believe that I will be ordained exalted herself to the position of the church, but God has shown me that I will be the Bishop of the church.  There is no way that I can do any thing that will cause this to happen.  If what I am saying is coming from God, He will bring it to pass.  Also, I, through prophecy, have been told that I will receive an anointing similar to the Apostle Peter, that anointing was such that when Peter walked the streets during his ministry, people would bring those who were sick in their family so that when Peter came by that his shadow would fall on their sick and they would be healed.
 I cannot heal any one.  If this prophecy comes to pass, it will have to be God.  There is no way that this can be a “self-fulfilling” prophecy.  

I'll let this web-site know when and if this happens.  Personally, I don't care how God uses me to accomplish his purpose which is the salvation of his children from the consequence of sin.

You say:

Quote

++”And as a Christian striving to obey the Commandments of God that came to humanity from God through him, I make mistakes, and since he has overcome sin and death and he is alive forever more, he can pray asking God to forgive me when I make a mistake, otherwise I would not be able to overcome sin and death. You don’t fear death.  Why do you need to overcome it?

God made man in his own image.  The first Adam became a living soul or person, like God in that he has a mind, a free will, and emotions.  The last Adam was made a life-giving spirit.  Jesus is our example of how we as Christians are to live our life to be in right standing with God.  He obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross.  We as Christians strive to obey but we make mistakes.  We become like Jesus as we learn to apply the Word of God that has come to us through Jesus to our daily lives, and it means enduring by Faith until we either die physically or until Jesus comes for the church if we are alive at that time.  This world is the refining fire where we learn to apply the Word of God to our daily lives.  If we did not have somewhere to put God's Word into practice, we could not become like Jesus.  We overcome by continuing by faith in his doctrine and by the blood that he shed for us for the forgiveness of our sins.

Quote

Quote 1 Co. 2 9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. ++”This promise sounds pretty good to me. It sounds like a Nigerian financial scam to me.

The promise has nothing to do with financial gain.

Quote

14 Behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart, but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart, and shall howl for vexation F282 of spirit. 15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name: 16 That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes. 17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come F283 into mind. 18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. 19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

And then to the question you ask relative to my quote:

Quote

++”In the society that I live, I have the freedom to worship God and obey God's commandments or if man had tried to deny me that freedom, or to force me to deny my faith, then I would be defiant. If society chose to punish me for this, then I would have to accept the punishment. Well that is honest of you, and fair enough.  Would you accept the death penalty for touching someone’s ark?

If you are still relating this question, to the judgment against Uzzah, I have already given you my understanding of this, but if God said that I shouldn't touch the ark, and he told me that if I did, I would die, and I touched it, then I believe that the judgment would be just.

And God says this:

Quote

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Lastly you say to my quote:

Quote

++”I do admit, that some to the actions taken by God in the Old Testament are difficult to understand, and I have had to ask Him for understanding many a time. The Fairies tell me to buy more fertiliser.  What does your God say to you? ++”It is true that there are many things that are difficult to understand in the scriptures, but when I lack understanding, I ask God for understanding knowing that there has to be an explanation. I know God to be a God of love, but He is also a God of justice. Haven’t we also established that he is an unpredictable, petulant bully with a quick temper and a passion for slaughter?

No, he is not unpredictable, but he has given us His Word, and is up to you to believe it or not.  I did say that some of the judgments in the Old Testament were hard to understand, and that I have had to ask for understanding on many occasions, and whenever I have a question, I know that I can go to God in prayer and He will answer my prayer.  

Jesus said:

Quote

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works

And the Apostle Peter says the following:

Quote

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance

And so, your impression of God is not correct.  He is a God of love and a God of justice.

God Bless

[Stu]

Hi 942767

++” I also mentioned that many have personal testimonies of physical healings, I believe that these are verifiable facts.

I don’t believe a single account of faith healing. All proper studies of such things demonstrate that faith and prayer have an effect equivalent to a placebo. I do, however reserve a particular dislike for those who tell people that their terminal illnesses can be healed through faith alone. The evidence says they are liars, and they prey on particularly vulnerable people.

++”Why then do I see those, who profess not to believe that there is a God, when there is a life threating event such a hurricane, all of a sudden begin praying for God to protect them?

Why do masses of people turn away from their gods after such events? Do they start to see that there is no difference between the numbers of devout believers and the numbers of atheists injured or killed in such event?

++” I do however believe the biblical account that there was a flood.

Well, sorry to disappoint, but there wasn’t.

++”Joshephus wrote about Jesus, and so, I hope this satisfies your request for one prophecy to match those attributed to science.

It may be that Josephus wrote about Jesus, and it may not be. He was born in 37CE and so was not writing an eyewitness account. The problem with Josephus is that almost certainly his work had sections added later by christian apologists. They probably added the parts about the name “Christ” and fulfillment of prophesy. Josephus does not attest to virgin birth, resurrection or miracles – the only claims of such things are in the NT and we know the extent of elaboration that the gospels have undergone: there is no corroboration of divine superpowers in non-christian writing at all, and no other mention of Jesus at all.

++”I believe that the doctrine of “original sin” is a misunderstanding of scripture. The definition of sin is that “it is the transgression of the law”. A child is born in innocence and does not sin until whenever they are tempted and transgress the laws of God. Parents are responsible for the child. The children of born again Christians are saved if they should die before the time that they are able to decide for themselves whether or not they want to serve God. Children of unsaved parents will die but they will not be judged. In other words, there is no child that is going to hell. The parents of those who are unsaved are responsible for the child and they will be judged according to their works.

I am delighted to see you reject the Augustine nonsense. Maybe you could think as clearly about some of the other ridiculous tenets?

++” God made man in his own image.

Does god have a navel too?

++”No, he is not unpredictable, but he has given us His Word, and is up to you to believe it or not. I did say that some of the judgments in the Old Testament were hard to understand, and that I have had to ask for understanding on many occasions, and whenever I have a question, I know that I can go to God in prayer and He will answer my prayer.

I told you what the fairies in my garden tell me. You did not say what the little voice(s) say to you!

++”And so, your impression of God is not correct. He is a God of love and a God of justice.

And how do we judge this? I think you will find, looking round this forum, that scripture is everything. It must be: there is no other “evidence”. The OT shows god to be the most unspeakably monstrous character in the history of fiction. Bibles should carry warning labels.

Good luck with your ambitions. I would far prefer you unleash your mythology on those who choose to go and hear it in a church than on unsuspecting and undeserving bystanders in public places.

Stuart

[Stu]

942767, you quote:

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Christianity shares with communism, fascism and Islam a set of doctrines that immunise against critical thinking by warning of those who are in some way untrue, or critical of the totalitarian regime. This is one such tract. The irony is that it speaks to the genuinely ignorant of the supposed ignorance of the outsiders.

Stuart

[942767]

Hi Stu:

God has made a way for you to be reconciled to Him if you choose to do so.  I have let you know what I know to be the truth out of my love for you.

Whether or not you choose to be reconciled to him is your decision.  This world is temporary, and where man has the opportunity to be reconciled to God and learn to live in right standing with him and live in house for an eternity, but if a man chooses not to do this, and he dies in his sins, he will not continue in God's house in the world to come.

There is a day of judgment coming where every man will give an account to God for the life that they live in this body, and so, having shared the truth with you, my obligation has been fulfilled.

But if I can help you in any way, please let me know.

God Bless

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