- This topic is empty.
- Posts
This continues a tangent from another thread…
Why did Jesus actually have to DIE?
Why do gods seem to have to kill so many people?
How do you feel being told that you have been “saved” because of the application of the death penalty?
Is Christianity a kind of death cult?(The links below do not lead to material written by me).
Quote (Stu @ Sep. 18 2007,19:48)
Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 18 2007,18:09)
Hi Stu,I suppose you are right when you look at the “killings” in the OT and even the death of God's Son, Jesus, and wonder – why? Why all the death? I've wondered this too. But when you look at nature, sometimes it becomes necessary for one thing or plant to die so that it insures the survival of the species. In other words, some plants give off seeds only when they die, so that in this way, the species is continued from generation to generation.
I guess, viewed in this light, in was necessary for Jesus to die so that we can live. When his life ended, he insured our survival. That is certainly one way to look at it. I'm sure there are plenty of other ways to analyze it. But, OK, I won't tell you when I'm praying for you I'll just whisper your name towards the heavens….. Because this is my way of showing you that I care, and that I believe in the power of prayer. I've just had too many “experiences” with God to say it's irony. One thing you can't argue with is personal testimony!
Try this quiz at your favourite site and mine (!):
http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news1100/godswrathquiz.html
The tally is repeated here: (OT body count >2,270,365):
http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2006….ed.html
What do you think?
Stuart
Hi Stu,
Well, to be fair, the site you listed first is completely anti-God, it would have been more interesting to me if it had more of a balanced overview of the topic of killing in the Bible.
The second blog (is this your blog?) was kinda interesting. What I found interesting the most was the feedback that this person received. It did tend to show some blindness on the side of those who just ignored the killing facts of the Bible.
With that said, I'd have to say that there were specific reasons why some of this people were put to death. Most of the reasons had to do with unbelief……
Here is a challenge for you Stu (I first wrote “Stud” instead of Stu; isn't that funny?) anyway, you have trained yourself to debate the non-existence of God, have you ever tried to turn the tables and do the opposite? In college we were forced to write a paper in favor of something we abhorred (I chose racism). It was the most difficult paper I ever had to write. But I learned some very valuable lessons. Try it. Write a paper or whatever, in favor of the Christian testimony. I dare you……..stud.
Hi Not3in1
Here is my three-sentence pro-Christianity essay: There is a kernel of truth at the centre of Christianity. That is the Golden Rule. Do unto others, no question about that.
I find the rest to be a bit like a kind of world-wide fantasy role-play.
Anyway, back to the slaughter…
Stuart
God is love satan is a murderer from the begining .when god turned from them in exodus 23 because they did not want him.,as it is writen in acts 7:42-43.God left them to that angle with Gods name in him.this is when the murdering began,if they had chosen to follow God instead they would never of had to kill for in exodus chapter 23 God said he would clear the land for them,with bees,or wasps,hornets ?clear the land right out, with out killing,did this ever come to pass ,no of corse not,they chose to follow satan and moses and build a vain tabernacle to worship the host of heaven instead of God.
Quote (michaels @ Sep. 19 2007,06:12) God is love satan is a murderer from the begining .when god turned from them in exodus 23 because they did not want him.,as it is writen in acts 7:42-43.God left them to that angle with Gods name in him.this is when the murdering began,if they had chosen to follow God instead they would never of had to kill for in exodus chapter 23 God said he would clear the land for them,with bees,or wasps,hornets ?clear the land right out, with out killing,did this ever come to pass ,no of corse not,they chose to follow satan and moses and build a vain tabernacle to worship the host of heaven instead of God.
Hi michaelsWhy is god's punishment for disobedience the death penalty?
How could a “perfect creator” have messed things up so badly that he had to drown almost all of his creation?Stuart
after moses time did any of the murdering kings know God? by their examples they were far from him also worshiping satan,,did not God say not to commit adultry ,and to love your neighbor as your self.when you have a thousand wives ,wouldent you think after you broke the heart of the first one by takeing another to repent,God said I will make two flesh one, not I will make you one with a hundred girls.how would these kings have liked it if it was the other way around,they got to be one of a thousand husbands.this is truly wrong.me believe their only god was satan,after all as far as me can see they did not even keep one of Gods commandments,they spoke well of him with words ,but their hearts were far from him.the old testament is a great example for us,we can clearly see what not to do from watching all of these evils from a distance.yet God still shows thru with his love for he never changes,and he will forgive who he will,the true heart of repentance availth much.
quote;Why did Jesus actually have to DIE?
Why do gods seem to have to kill so many people?
How do you feel being told that you have been “saved” because of the application of the death penalty?
Is Christianity a kind of death cult?Evidence of the Miraculous truth written in the heart of all, Stuart
Jer 11:19
But I [was] like a lamb [or] an ox [that] is brought to the slaughter; and I knew not that they had devised devices against me, [saying], Let us destroy the tree with the fruit thereof, and let us cut him off from the land of the living, that his name may be no more remembered.Jer 11:20
But, O LORD of hosts, that judgest righteously, that triest the reins and the heart, let me see thy vengeance on them: for unto thee have I revealed my cause.And when thou doest evil…… then thou rejoicest.
It is not possible that any blood of Lamb shall annulled a convent with death, when the HEART HAS INTENDED its cause to fitfully follow and observe Laws, even as he offered as continual burnt offering generation after generation. Provoking the Highest to anger in offering incense unto Baal. Cursing the CONGREGATION
he dident mess anything up, he has alowed all things to come to pass that he can find those who truly love him,in doing so he lets satan run rampent thru the world that we may be tested if we truely love him.in regards to the flood ,me believe its not just us that are tested its all of his children even the angles,and many left there first estate for lusts of the flesh,its not that God messed up ,but that he alowed these angles to run rampent for a season,after this God promised never again to flood the whole earth ,yet me believe there will be a even greater judgement for even now the world is waxing worse and worse,he says if he dident shorten the time even the very elect would parish,this is because the whole world follows after the beast.God is love he wishes that all would come to him not just some,but the time is short. and me dont understant where you speak of that our God of love gave a death penalty,for there is always repentance with the father ,he is just waiting for us to repent and come to him,its men who made the death penalty by takeing it into their own hands and judgeing others,and this is sin for God said not to kill, so if you see someone sining and you go and judge them to stone them,then you are sinning by killing,then you must be killed acording to mens law,so this only brongs an endless sycly of death as one thinks he is more ritches than another so kills the other for his sin,this is satans way not Gods.
if you can tell by a persons fruit who they are following,God or satan,then you know who there god was at the time ,like when moses came down the mountain and said God said everyone kill your brother.is this the fruit of GOD,no,moses said (YHWH)told him.yet this is not even Gods name,for if you read exidus 6:3 it says abraham dident know him by this name (YHWH)yet this is what abram called him by, so its clear that the only name abram dident know him by is (I AM).so this is Gods name.moses dident say (I AM) said everyone kill your brother,so who was his god,hmmm, surely this is not the fruit of our God who is love, and never changes.
even if God was known by this name in abrams time,he clearly gave a new name to go by forever,and this can not be,(YHWH)as it says in ex 3:15,and 6:3, because this clearly contrdicts the fact that abram knew this name.
Hi Stu:
Before February 1980, although I had been taught about the existence of God being brought up by parent the were Catholic, and although I had been married in an assembly of God church, and although at this time I was a member of a Southern Baptist church, I guess I would have been considered an agnostic. But in February 1980, when my wife was going to leave me and take my eight year old son with her, I prayed to God in prayer saying “Lord, if you are there, I would like my wife and I to remain together if it be thy will, but nevertheless, not my will by thine be done. He heard me from heaven and baptized me with the Holy Spirit revealing that He indeed is a reality and that the testimony regarding His Son Jesus is true. My wife left me for three months but she returned, and in January of the coming year, we will have been married 43 years. And so, because God dwells within my body, testifying that He is a reality and that the testimony regarding his Son is true. I have written my personal testimony in depth on this website if you are interested.
While I respect you for sharing your beliefs, I could not possibly be swayed to ever agree with you because of the testimony that God has given me. But as I said, I was an agnostic at one time too.
When you see the life that Jesus lived while he was here on earth, you have seen God's character manifested through his life. I believe that you ask why did Jesus have to die for us. The scripture states that the “wages of sin is death”, which means spiritual death or separation from God, and also means physical death. Through perfect obedience to God's Word, Jesus did not sin, and, therefore, he overcame the penalty for sin. We who are born again Christians may die physically, but we will recieve a spiritual body when Jesus comes for the church.
Why did God make salvation available for us in this way? First, all of humanity have sinned. There are some who have done worse than others. There are some that my even be considered good people, but all of us have made mistakes. And so, salvation can not be earned by any one of us through perfect obedience. If there were some who obeyed perfectly there would boasting. This is something God has done for us by providing Jesus to be the propitiation for our sins. There is not boasting because all of us have sinned. Secondly, God calls into a relationship with us. We have a free will, and we can be reconciled to him if we desire, but we do not have to serve him if we do not want to serve him. God does not want any one to serve him if they do not want to serve him. He will not force any one to serve Him.
If a person chooses not to serve God, a person will be held accountable for the life that he lived in this body. He will be judged according to his works because a person has knowledge of good and evil.
Sin is detrimental to us and is detrimental to those who we sin against. All of God's Word is meant to deliver us from all of this hurt that we cause our selves and others through sin. God is not willing that any man should perish, but again, he has allowed this world with all of its evil to give every man an opportunity to be reconciled to him freely.
And after we are born again, Christians we strive to obey God's Word but we make mistakes, but when we repent we are forgiven. It is wonderful to know that we are not condemned when we make mistakes. The simplicity of the gospel is to love God by keeping his commandments and to love others by treating them as we would want to be treated whether or not they treat us that way.
I agree there are many things in the Old Testament that are hard to understand. For the most part, those things that you refer to killings in the Old Testament, are judgments against these people for sin. People then, as well as now, had the opportunity and a free will to either serve God or not.
There is a lot of symbolism in the Old Testament. For example, Canaan land which was given to Abraham and his descendants and became the nation of Israel is symbolic of this whole world which will be made anew for God's children. It will be the land of Israel. The scripture states that there will be a new heaven and a new earth wherein dwells righteousness.
I hope this helps.
Hi Stu,
Sorry I'm late….what did I miss?
I'm looking into this subject. I don't really have anything to report yet. The one website that you posted has got me a bit disturbed and I'm pondering it. I just wanted to say I'm thinking, and I'll be back to post in a few days.
Take care,
MandyQuote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 19 2007,19:12) Hi Stu, Sorry I'm late….what did I miss?
I'm looking into this subject. I don't really have anything to report yet. The one website that you posted has got me a bit disturbed and I'm pondering it. I just wanted to say I'm thinking, and I'll be back to post in a few days.
Take care,
Mandy
Hi Not3in1Don't write letters to the Landover Baptist site! They will publish them in an attempt to make you look rabid!
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Sep. 19 2007,19:17) Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 19 2007,19:12) Hi Stu, Sorry I'm late….what did I miss?
I'm looking into this subject. I don't really have anything to report yet. The one website that you posted has got me a bit disturbed and I'm pondering it. I just wanted to say I'm thinking, and I'll be back to post in a few days.
Take care,
Mandy
Hi Not3in1Don't write letters to the Landover Baptist site! They will publish them in an attempt to make you look rabid!
Stuart
Hey thanks for the heads-up. I better delete this stupid email then…..I was just about to send it too! I'm off to bed now, goodnight Stu!
Mandy
zzzzzzzzzzzThanks for your reply, 942767
++”While I respect you for sharing your beliefs, I could not possibly be swayed to ever agree with you because of the testimony that God has given me. But as I said, I was an agnostic at one time too.
A bit of an aside: I would say you still are agnostic. As no-one can provide indisputable evidence for gods for others to see, we are all agnostics by definition, no matter how convinced we may be. It is the only honest position to take. Atheism has some philosophical problems here for the same reason. Of course that wouldn’t stop me saying there are no unicorns, gods, ghosts, flying spaghetti monsters or teapots orbiting Mars!
++”When you see the life that Jesus lived while he was here on earth, you have seen God's character manifested through his life. I believe that you ask why did Jesus have to die for us. The scripture states that the “wages of sin is death”, which means spiritual death or separation from God, and also means physical death. Through perfect obedience to God's Word, Jesus did not sin, and, therefore, he overcame the penalty for sin. We who are born again Christians may die physically, but we will recieve a spiritual body when Jesus comes for the church.
That may be how the story goes, but it doesn’t say why Jesus HAD to die, especially by execution. He could quite reasonably have lived to 80 then died of natural causes and then been resurrected (as your fable goes).
++”… We have a free will, and we can be reconciled to him if we desire, but we do not have to serve him if we do not want to serve him. God does not want any one to serve him if they do not want to serve him. He will not force any one to serve Him. If a person chooses not to serve God, a person will be held accountable for the life that he lived in this body. He will be judged according to his works because a person has knowledge of good and evil.
In Leviticus 24 we read of a man who blasphemes and is ordered by God to be stoned to death. Presumably he is exercising his “free will”. What real free will is there under threat of death? Also, what kind of monster orders others to do his killing for him?
++” God is not willing that any man should perish, but again, he has allowed this world with all of its evil to give every man an opportunity to be reconciled to him freely.
He hates to kill, but just has to if we don't see it his way…
++” It is wonderful to know that we are not condemned when we make mistakes.
Tell that to the man in Numbers 15 who is condemned by god to be stoned to death for gathering firewood!
Stuart
Hi michaels
++” God still shows thru with his love for he never changes,and he will forgive who he will,the true heart of repentance availth much.
The OT god is very different from the NT one. God kills over 2,000,000 people in the Old Testament. How many die in the NT? Fewer than a handful? Was God showing his love as he smote his way through the Middle East?
++” where you speak of that our God of love gave a death penalty,for there is always repentance with the father ,he is just waiting for us to repent and come to him,its men who made the death penalty by takeing it into their own hands and judgeing others,and this is sin for God said not to kill, so if you see someone sining and you go and judge them to stone them,then you are sinning by killing,then you must be killed acording to mens law,so this only brongs an endless sycly of death as one thinks he is more ritches than another so kills the other for his sin,this is satans way not Gods.
You claim to have been saved through the application of the death penalty to a Jewish man 2000 years ago. In the light of what you have written, what value does that have? You are quite happy to worship a mass murderer who says do as I say, not as I do?
Stuart
Hi Charity
Thanks for your reply on the previous page. I'm afraid I'm not quite with you. You write something about evidence?
Stuart
Hi Stu:
In the society that we live there are laws that govern the society. Of course, we are free to violate these laws, but if we do, we have to pay the penalty if we get caught. The punishment we may receive will vary according to the severity of the violation. In some instances, the penalty is imprisonment so that we won't do harm to the people of the society, and in some instances the penalty might even be death. These laws are for the good of the society.
All of humanity has violated God's laws. If we violate the laws of society, we are punished by those who enforce the law. Some of us have violated these laws and have not been caught. Some of these violation of God's laws are not govened by the Laws of our society. Nevertheless, they are violations of God's laws and all of us have been caught in that God has seen all that we have done in our life, and since we have violated his laws, he is the only one who can forgive us. All of us then are due judgment for violating God's laws, but God has sent His only begotten Son to pay that judgment that was against us. Jesus gave his life so that even the most wicked person in this world could be forgiven if they choose to be reconciled to God. It was man who crucified the Lord.
If a person wants to live in society then he must be a law abiding citizen. If a person wants to live in God's house forever, he must learn to obey God's Word. The judgment has been paid for those who choose to be reconciled to God through his Son Jesus, but if a person does not choose to be reconciled to God then they will be judged according to their works, but they will not continue in the house of God.
Quote 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. F9 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. No Stu, I am not still an agnostic, and this is not a fable, but the truth. I can only share my testimony with you whether or not you believe what I have shared is your prerogative. Those who knew me before my conversion experience and who know me now can see the reality of my testimony through my changed life.
God Bless
Hi 942767
My aside about agnosticism was a philosophical one – you are, unless you can provide physical evidence for the existence of such a god.
From your answer above, I can only conclude that you don't necessarily think Jesus did have to die on the cross.
Your post orbits very much around the idea of the need to obey laws, with punishment a motivating factor. There are many Christians in the world who will defy the laws of a nation if they feel they are unjust or “ungodly”. Would you be one of them? Would you then deserve the punishment of the state if exercising conscience? The bigger question is why don't such anarchic religious folk also question the laws laid down in the bible? The savage God of the Old Testament is one of the most unjust of all fictional characters – doesn't some of the OT god's actions need serious ethical questioning?
For example, in 2 Samuel 6 and in Chronicles we read that God kills Uzzah for trying to stop his ark from falling off a cart. While perhaps there are details we don't know, this is the reason recorded, and I think it is open to a great deal of question what divine “law” produced the death penalty for what would seem to be a helping act. He would seem to be unpredictable and petulant!
I am growing more convinced that religion is a way that some people strive to achieve a sense of justice in a world where there often isn't much. If you invent a friend in the sky (even a petulant and violent one) to whom can be attributed reasons for apparent injustices then maybe some find it easier to live their lives. That in itself would not make it true, though.
Stuart
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
