Who upheld the universe for the three days?

[KangarooJack]

TO ALL:

Jodi Lee and her lone disciple Gene have been saying that when Jesus died He “ceased to exist.” In reply to this I want to give two self evident facts:

1. If Jesus “ceased to exist” at death, then the spirit or soul that appeared in the body of Jesus after its resurrection is not the same Jesus but an imposter. If Jesus ceased to exist at death, then the spirit that appeared in His body was not the same spirit that was born in that body. It was not the same spirit that performed the works of God or that suffered for sin in that body.

2. If Jesus “ceased to exist” at death, then when Jesus died the universe would have collapsed and the “Son” who now upholds the universe is not the same Son of God. For we are told that all things are upheld by the word of the Son's power (Hebrews 1:3).

So who upheld the universe for the three days? Did the Father “take over” for the three days and then afterwards transfer the obligation to another “Son?” Who upholds the universe now? It is not the same Jesus if He “ceased to exist.”

thethinker

[Elizabeth]

Jesus died alright on the cross, but he did not cease to exist. His mind, which you refer to as his spirit, and that is not wrong because Paul said, there is a spirit in man, did not die; the problem arises when you claim this spirit is a soul.
Your first point is backwards; the spirit/mind was the same, the body was different; God gave him back the body he had before, a spirit body. Jesus only took on the form of a human so he would become visible to other humans.
Point two: The Universe was never upheld by the power of Jesus, it is upheld by the power of “his” (the Fathers) word. Just as it was created by the power of the Father “through” his son.

Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Mar 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
1Cr 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
1Cr 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
1Cr 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

You really need to pay attention what the scriptures say; they ARE God's words; denying them is calling God a liar.

Georg

[KangarooJack]

Georg said:

Quote

The Universe was never upheld by the power of Jesus, it is upheld by the power of “his” (the Fathers) word. Just as it was created by the power of the Father “through” his son.

Georg,

First, what you say is a blatant denial of what is expressly stated in the text. The “he” who upholds all things by the word of His power is the same “he” who purged our sins and sat down on the right hand of God.

Second, the passage says nothing about the Father creating the universe “through” the Son. It says that the Father created the “ages” through the Son. It is speaking about the creation of human history.

Young's Literal Translation:

“…in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages“

It is saying that the Father created HUMAN HISTORY through the Son.

In verse 10 the Father CLEARLY attributes the creation of the physical universe to the Son's own hands.

But to the Son He says….You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.”

If verse 2 is saying that the Father created the physical universe “through” the Son, then verse 10 would be a blatant contradiction. It says that the Father credits the physical creation to the Son's own hands.

Verse 2: The Father created HUMAN HISTORY through the Son

Verse 10: The Son created the PHYSICAL UNIVERSE with His own hands.

At least we agree that the Son did not cease to exist. But the text CLEARLY says that the One who upholds the universe is the One who purged our sins. This is the Son my friend!

thinker

[Elizabeth]

thinker

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

We, humans, made or if you will, created history.
Georg

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Elizabeth @ Jan. 29 2010,14:15)

thinker Col 1:15   Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:   Col 1:16   For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:   We, humans, made or if you will, created history. Georg

Georg said:

Quote

We, humans, made or if you will, created history.

Georg,

Hebrews 1:2 says that the “ages” were created by the Father through the Son.

If verse 2 is saying that the Father created the physical universe through the Son then we have a contradiction in verse 10 which says that the Father attributes the physical creation to the Son's own hands.

You did not reply to my point that the “He” who upholds all things by the word of His power is the same “He” who purged our sins and sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high (v. 3).

thinker

[Elizabeth]

thinker

Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Hbr 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

Why would that be a contradiction? Jesus himself told us

Jhn 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Jhn 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

I guess you don't believe this either, do you?

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Do you have children? how many first born do you have?

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Why is it so hard to believe that God gave his son the power to create?

As for the “HE”, it is Christs sacrifice, his dying for our sins, that makes atonement for us with God, but it is the Father who forgives us our sins for Christs sake.

Georg

[david]

Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 29 2010,03:13)

TO ALL: Jodi Lee and her lone disciple Gene have been saying that when Jesus died He “ceased to exist.” In reply to this I want to give two self evident facts: 1. If Jesus “ceased to exist” at death, then the spirit or soul that appeared in the body of Jesus after its resurrection is not the same Jesus but an imposter. If Jesus ceased to exist at death, then the spirit that appeared in His body was not the same spirit that was born in that body. It was not the same spirit that performed the works of God or that suffered for sin in that body. 2. If Jesus “ceased to exist” at death, then when Jesus died the universe would have collapsed and the “Son” who now upholds the universe is not the same Son of God. For we are told that all things are upheld by the word of the Son's power (Hebrews 1:3). So who upheld the universe for the three days? Did the Father “take over” for the three days and then afterwards transfer the obligation to another “Son?” Who upholds the universe now? It is not the same Jesus if He “ceased to exist.” thethinker

Thinker, are you suggesting Jesus didn't really die? What are you suggesting?

Your first statement is NOT A FACT.

Your second statement is based on a fact, but you twisted the timing of that fact and ingore much of the actual scripture you use to support your “fact.”

Let's look at them shall we:
Your first statement is based on a boatload of assumptions, none of which you can know. Or have you died and came back to life? Or, perhaps one of your friends have. Which is it?
We are all essentially our memories and our minds. Right now, there are scientists who are looking into the future, believing one day they will be able to re-create a persons memories. Do you not think the creator of …everything, can “re-create” a person's mind, or even Jesus' mind, with all the memories intact?

[KangarooJack]

Quote (david @ Jan. 30 2010,17:16)

Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 29 2010,03:13) TO ALL: Jodi Lee and her lone disciple Gene have been saying that when Jesus died He “ceased to exist.” In reply to this I want to give two self evident facts: 1. If Jesus “ceased to exist” at death, then the spirit or soul that appeared in the body of Jesus after its resurrection is not the same Jesus but an imposter. If Jesus ceased to exist at death, then the spirit that appeared in His body was not the same spirit that was born in that body. It was not the same spirit that performed the works of God or that suffered for sin in that body. 2. If Jesus “ceased to exist” at death, then when Jesus died the universe would have collapsed and the “Son” who now upholds the universe is not the same Son of God. For we are told that all things are upheld by the word of the Son's power (Hebrews 1:3). So who upheld the universe for the three days? Did the Father “take over” for the three days and then afterwards transfer the obligation to another “Son?” Who upholds the universe now? It is not the same Jesus if He “ceased to exist.” thethinker Thinker, are you suggesting Jesus didn't really die?  What are you suggesting? Your first statement is NOT A FACT. Your second statement is based on a fact, but you twisted the timing of that fact and ingore much of the actual scripture you use to support your “fact.” Let's look at them shall we: Your first statement is based on a boatload of assumptions, none of which you can know.  Or have you died and came back to life?  Or, perhaps one of your friends have.  Which is it? We are all essentially our memories and our minds.  Right now, there are scientists who are looking into the future, believing one day they will be able to re-create a persons memories.  Do you not think the creator of …everything, can “re-create” a person's mind, or even Jesus' mind, with all the memories intact?

Sheer nonsense! The scripture does NOT teach that “death” means to “cease to exist.” The Jesus that came forth from hades and from the tomb is the EXACT SAME Jesus who was born of Mary and who suffered and died and who bore our sins. A newly, re-created Jesus did not bear our sins. IT WAS THE HISTORICAL JESUS WHO BORE OUR SINS. A newly created Jesus is not the Historical Jesus! It's that simple! A soul that “ceases to exist” cannot rise.

And a newly created soul is not the same soul that died. Jesus died but He did not cease to exist. Death does not mean “cease to exist.”

David:

Quote

Right now, there are scientists who are looking into the future, believing one day they will be able to re-create a persons memories.  Do you not think the creator of …everything, can “re-create” a person's mind, or even Jesus' mind, with all the memories intact?

Your rationalist and empiricist speech is a perfect example of how far anti-trinitarians will go. Did the original recipients have the scientific knowledge that we have today? If biblical truth is to be determined by the acquisition of scientific knowledge , then the original recipients had no way of knowing what the scriptures mean.

David:

Quote

Your second statement is based on a fact, but you twisted the timing of that fact and ingore much of the actual scripture you use to support your “fact.”

You say that I have “twisted” the timing of the Son's upholding the universe. I suppose you are referring to the statement that says that the Son “upholds all things by the word of His power WHEN He had purged our sins….” The word “when” is not in the Greek text and even your own NWT supports what I say. It reads thus:

…and he sustains all things by the word of his power; and after he had made a purification for our sins He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. NWT

The text simply says that he upholds all things by the word of His power without a reference to when. It is common sense that this was ALWAYS the case. So my points stand unanswered and  unrefuted: If Jesus “ceased to exist,” then who took over during the three days? And after the three days it must have been another “Son” who picked up where the first Son who “ceased to exist” left off.

thinker

[Elizabeth]

Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 02 2010,02:36)

Quote (david @ Jan. 30 2010,17:16) Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 29 2010,03:13) TO ALL: Jodi Lee and her lone disciple Gene have been saying that when Jesus died He “ceased to exist.” In reply to this I want to give two self evident facts: 1. If Jesus “ceased to exist” at death, then the spirit or soul that appeared in the body of Jesus after its resurrection is not the same Jesus but an imposter. If Jesus ceased to exist at death, then the spirit that appeared in His body was not the same spirit that was born in that body. It was not the same spirit that performed the works of God or that suffered for sin in that body. 2. If Jesus “ceased to exist” at death, then when Jesus died the universe would have collapsed and the “Son” who now upholds the universe is not the same Son of God. For we are told that all things are upheld by the word of the Son's power (Hebrews 1:3). So who upheld the universe for the three days? Did the Father “take over” for the three days and then afterwards transfer the obligation to another “Son?” Who upholds the universe now? It is not the same Jesus if He “ceased to exist.” thethinker Thinker, are you suggesting Jesus didn't really die?  What are you suggesting? Your first statement is NOT A FACT. Your second statement is based on a fact, but you twisted the timing of that fact and ingore much of the actual scripture you use to support your “fact.” Let's look at them shall we: Your first statement is based on a boatload of assumptions, none of which you can know.  Or have you died and came back to life?  Or, perhaps one of your friends have.  Which is it? We are all essentially our memories and our minds.  Right now, there are scientists who are looking into the future, believing one day they will be able to re-create a persons memories.  Do you not think the creator of …everything, can “re-create” a person's mind, or even Jesus' mind, with all the memories intact? Sheer nonsense! The scripture does NOT teach that “death” means to “cease to exist.” The Jesus that came forth from hades and from the tomb is the EXACT SAME Jesus who was born of Mary and who suffered and died and who bore our sins. A newly, re-created Jesus did not bear our sins. IT WAS THE HISTORICAL JESUS WHO BORE OUR SINS. A newly created Jesus is not the Historical Jesus! It's that simple! A soul that “ceases to exist” cannot rise. And a newly created soul is not the same soul that died. Jesus died but He did not cease to exist. Death does not mean “cease to exist.” David: Quote Right now, there are scientists who are looking into the future, believing one day they will be able to re-create a persons memories.  Do you not think the creator of …everything, can “re-create” a person's mind, or even Jesus' mind, with all the memories intact? Your rationalist and empiricist speech is a perfect example of how far anti-trinitarians will go. Did the original recipients have the scientific knowledge that we have today? If biblical truth is to be determined by the acquisition of scientific knowledge , then the original recipients had no way of knowing what the scriptures mean. David: Quote Your second statement is based on a fact, but you twisted the timing of that fact and ingore much of the actual scripture you use to support your “fact.” You say that I have “twisted” the timing of the Son's upholding the universe. I suppose you are referring to the statement that says that the Son “upholds all things by the word of His power WHEN He had purged our sins….” The word “when” is not in the Greek text and even your own NWT supports what I say. It reads thus: …and he sustains all things by the word of his power; and after he had made a purification for our sins He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. NWT The text simply says that he upholds all things by the word of His power without a reference to when. It is common sense that this was ALWAYS the case. So my points stand unanswered and  unrefuted: If Jesus “ceased to exist,” then who took over during the three days? And after the three days it must have been another “Son” who picked up where the first Son who “ceased to exist” left off. thinker

thinker

What does it mean for Jesus to bear our sins; I mean, why did he have to do that, and how do we benefit from that?

Georg

[KangarooJack]

David said:

Quote

Your second statement is based on a fact, but you twisted the timing of that fact and ingore much of the actual scripture you use to support your “fact.”

David, see my original reply to you above. Hebrews 1:3 says nothing contrary to what I said. You may consult your own NWT on this. Consider also Paul's statement in Colossians:

“…and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.” Colossians 1:17 Young's Litaral Translation

thinker

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
Jesus was dead as his spirit had left him.
he was only alive in other realms by the faithful Spirit of God.

So he could not raise himself but that Spirit raised him.

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 02 2010,05:16)

Hi TT, Jesus was dead as his spirit had left him. he was only alive in other realms by the faithful Spirit of God. So he could not raise himself but that Spirit raised him.

His spirit left His body. Then it went down to hades (the abyss according to Paul, Rom. 10:7). Then He ascended from the abyss on the third day.

His consciuos life was uninterrupted the whole time.

thinker

[Elizabeth]

Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 02 2010,02:45)

Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 02 2010,02:36) Quote (david @ Jan. 30 2010,17:16) Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 29 2010,03:13) TO ALL: Jodi Lee and her lone disciple Gene have been saying that when Jesus died He “ceased to exist.” In reply to this I want to give two self evident facts: 1. If Jesus “ceased to exist” at death, then the spirit or soul that appeared in the body of Jesus after its resurrection is not the same Jesus but an imposter. If Jesus ceased to exist at death, then the spirit that appeared in His body was not the same spirit that was born in that body. It was not the same spirit that performed the works of God or that suffered for sin in that body. 2. If Jesus “ceased to exist” at death, then when Jesus died the universe would have collapsed and the “Son” who now upholds the universe is not the same Son of God. For we are told that all things are upheld by the word of the Son's power (Hebrews 1:3). So who upheld the universe for the three days? Did the Father “take over” for the three days and then afterwards transfer the obligation to another “Son?” Who upholds the universe now? It is not the same Jesus if He “ceased to exist.” thethinker Thinker, are you suggesting Jesus didn't really die?  What are you suggesting? Your first statement is NOT A FACT. Your second statement is based on a fact, but you twisted the timing of that fact and ingore much of the actual scripture you use to support your “fact.” Let's look at them shall we: Your first statement is based on a boatload of assumptions, none of which you can know.  Or have you died and came back to life?  Or, perhaps one of your friends have.  Which is it? We are all essentially our memories and our minds.  Right now, there are scientists who are looking into the future, believing one day they will be able to re-create a persons memories.  Do you not think the creator of …everything, can “re-create” a person's mind, or even Jesus' mind, with all the memories intact? Sheer nonsense! The scripture does NOT teach that “death” means to “cease to exist.” The Jesus that came forth from hades and from the tomb is the EXACT SAME Jesus who was born of Mary and who suffered and died and who bore our sins. A newly, re-created Jesus did not bear our sins. IT WAS THE HISTORICAL JESUS WHO BORE OUR SINS. A newly created Jesus is not the Historical Jesus! It's that simple! A soul that “ceases to exist” cannot rise. And a newly created soul is not the same soul that died. Jesus died but He did not cease to exist. Death does not mean “cease to exist.” David: Quote Right now, there are scientists who are looking into the future, believing one day they will be able to re-create a persons memories.  Do you not think the creator of …everything, can “re-create” a person's mind, or even Jesus' mind, with all the memories intact? Your rationalist and empiricist speech is a perfect example of how far anti-trinitarians will go. Did the original recipients have the scientific knowledge that we have today? If biblical truth is to be determined by the acquisition of scientific knowledge , then the original recipients had no way of knowing what the scriptures mean. David: Quote Your second statement is based on a fact, but you twisted the timing of that fact and ingore much of the actual scripture you use to support your “fact.” You say that I have “twisted” the timing of the Son's upholding the universe. I suppose you are referring to the statement that says that the Son “upholds all things by the word of His power WHEN He had purged our sins….” The word “when” is not in the Greek text and even your own NWT supports what I say. It reads thus: …and he sustains all things by the word of his power; and after he had made a purification for our sins He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. NWT The text simply says that he upholds all things by the word of His power without a reference to when. It is common sense that this was ALWAYS the case. So my points stand unanswered and  unrefuted: If Jesus “ceased to exist,” then who took over during the three days? And after the three days it must have been another “Son” who picked up where the first Son who “ceased to exist” left off. thinker thinker What does it mean for Jesus to bear our sins; I mean, why did he have to do that, and how do we benefit from that? Georg

thinker

Same question, why did Jesus “HAVE” to die?

Georg

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 02 2010,02:45)

Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 02 2010,02:36) Quote (david @ Jan. 30 2010,17:16) Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 29 2010,03:13) TO ALL: Jodi Lee and her lone disciple Gene have been saying that when Jesus died He “ceased to exist.” In reply to this I want to give two self evident facts: 1. If Jesus “ceased to exist” at death, then the spirit or soul that appeared in the body of Jesus after its resurrection is not the same Jesus but an imposter. If Jesus ceased to exist at death, then the spirit that appeared in His body was not the same spirit that was born in that body. It was not the same spirit that performed the works of God or that suffered for sin in that body. 2. If Jesus “ceased to exist” at death, then when Jesus died the universe would have collapsed and the “Son” who now upholds the universe is not the same Son of God. For we are told that all things are upheld by the word of the Son's power (Hebrews 1:3). So who upheld the universe for the three days? Did the Father “take over” for the three days and then afterwards transfer the obligation to another “Son?” Who upholds the universe now? It is not the same Jesus if He “ceased to exist.” thethinker Thinker, are you suggesting Jesus didn't really die?  What are you suggesting? Your first statement is NOT A FACT. Your second statement is based on a fact, but you twisted the timing of that fact and ingore much of the actual scripture you use to support your “fact.” Let's look at them shall we: Your first statement is based on a boatload of assumptions, none of which you can know.  Or have you died and came back to life?  Or, perhaps one of your friends have.  Which is it? We are all essentially our memories and our minds.  Right now, there are scientists who are looking into the future, believing one day they will be able to re-create a persons memories.  Do you not think the creator of …everything, can “re-create” a person's mind, or even Jesus' mind, with all the memories intact? Sheer nonsense! The scripture does NOT teach that “death” means to “cease to exist.” The Jesus that came forth from hades and from the tomb is the EXACT SAME Jesus who was born of Mary and who suffered and died and who bore our sins. A newly, re-created Jesus did not bear our sins. IT WAS THE HISTORICAL JESUS WHO BORE OUR SINS. A newly created Jesus is not the Historical Jesus! It's that simple! A soul that “ceases to exist” cannot rise. And a newly created soul is not the same soul that died. Jesus died but He did not cease to exist. Death does not mean “cease to exist.” David: Quote Right now, there are scientists who are looking into the future, believing one day they will be able to re-create a persons memories.  Do you not think the creator of …everything, can “re-create” a person's mind, or even Jesus' mind, with all the memories intact? Your rationalist and empiricist speech is a perfect example of how far anti-trinitarians will go. Did the original recipients have the scientific knowledge that we have today? If biblical truth is to be determined by the acquisition of scientific knowledge , then the original recipients had no way of knowing what the scriptures mean. David: Quote Your second statement is based on a fact, but you twisted the timing of that fact and ingore much of the actual scripture you use to support your “fact.” You say that I have “twisted” the timing of the Son's upholding the universe. I suppose you are referring to the statement that says that the Son “upholds all things by the word of His power WHEN He had purged our sins….” The word “when” is not in the Greek text and even your own NWT supports what I say. It reads thus: …and he sustains all things by the word of his power; and after he had made a purification for our sins He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. NWT The text simply says that he upholds all things by the word of His power without a reference to when. It is common sense that this was ALWAYS the case. So my points stand unanswered and  unrefuted: If Jesus “ceased to exist,” then who took over during the three days? And after the three days it must have been another “Son” who picked up where the first Son who “ceased to exist” left off. thinker thinker What does it mean for Jesus to bear our sins; I mean, why did he have to do that, and how do we benefit from that? Georg

Georg,

It means that He bore the guilt and punishment of our sins. Our sins had separated us from God. Jesus died IN OUR PLACE so we could be reconciled to God and enjoy Him forever.

thinker

[KangarooJack]

David said:

Quote

Do you not think the creator of …everything, can “re-create” a person's mind, or even Jesus' mind, with all the memories intact?

David,

Please see my two replies to you on the first page of this thread. Let me ask you a question. The computer I am using now is relatively new. The first computer was very old and was breaking down. When I purchased the new computer I had all the memory transferred to the new computer. Does this mystically and magically make the computer I have now the same computer? Of course not!

Those who say that “death” means “cease to exist” cannot solve this problem and your theory of the Creator recreating memory does not solve it.

If the Jesus of history “ceased to exist,” then the Jesus who appeared in His body after the resurrection is not the same Jesus. The recreation of memory does not change this. For this would still involve the transference of that memory into ANOTHER spirit. The consequence is that the “new” Jesus is not the Jesus of history.

Can the Creator transfer the sufferings of the first Jesus also?

Jesus died in the flesh. But His spirit did not “cease to exist.” This was the doctrine of the Sadducees which both Jesus and His chief apostle Paul rejected. Do you side with the Sadducees David?

thinker

[Elizabeth]

Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 02 2010,20:22)

Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 02 2010,02:45) Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 02 2010,02:36) Quote (david @ Jan. 30 2010,17:16) Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 29 2010,03:13) TO ALL: Jodi Lee and her lone disciple Gene have been saying that when Jesus died He “ceased to exist.” In reply to this I want to give two self evident facts: 1. If Jesus “ceased to exist” at death, then the spirit or soul that appeared in the body of Jesus after its resurrection is not the same Jesus but an imposter. If Jesus ceased to exist at death, then the spirit that appeared in His body was not the same spirit that was born in that body. It was not the same spirit that performed the works of God or that suffered for sin in that body. 2. If Jesus “ceased to exist” at death, then when Jesus died the universe would have collapsed and the “Son” who now upholds the universe is not the same Son of God. For we are told that all things are upheld by the word of the Son's power (Hebrews 1:3). So who upheld the universe for the three days? Did the Father “take over” for the three days and then afterwards transfer the obligation to another “Son?” Who upholds the universe now? It is not the same Jesus if He “ceased to exist.” thethinker Thinker, are you suggesting Jesus didn't really die?  What are you suggesting? Your first statement is NOT A FACT. Your second statement is based on a fact, but you twisted the timing of that fact and ingore much of the actual scripture you use to support your “fact.” Let's look at them shall we: Your first statement is based on a boatload of assumptions, none of which you can know.  Or have you died and came back to life?  Or, perhaps one of your friends have.  Which is it? We are all essentially our memories and our minds.  Right now, there are scientists who are looking into the future, believing one day they will be able to re-create a persons memories.  Do you not think the creator of …everything, can “re-create” a person's mind, or even Jesus' mind, with all the memories intact? Sheer nonsense! The scripture does NOT teach that “death” means to “cease to exist.” The Jesus that came forth from hades and from the tomb is the EXACT SAME Jesus who was born of Mary and who suffered and died and who bore our sins. A newly, re-created Jesus did not bear our sins. IT WAS THE HISTORICAL JESUS WHO BORE OUR SINS. A newly created Jesus is not the Historical Jesus! It's that simple! A soul that “ceases to exist” cannot rise. And a newly created soul is not the same soul that died. Jesus died but He did not cease to exist. Death does not mean “cease to exist.” David: Quote Right now, there are scientists who are looking into the future, believing one day they will be able to re-create a persons memories.  Do you not think the creator of …everything, can “re-create” a person's mind, or even Jesus' mind, with all the memories intact? Your rationalist and empiricist speech is a perfect example of how far anti-trinitarians will go. Did the original recipients have the scientific knowledge that we have today? If biblical truth is to be determined by the acquisition of scientific knowledge , then the original recipients had no way of knowing what the scriptures mean. David: Quote Your second statement is based on a fact, but you twisted the timing of that fact and ingore much of the actual scripture you use to support your “fact.” You say that I have “twisted” the timing of the Son's upholding the universe. I suppose you are referring to the statement that says that the Son “upholds all things by the word of His power WHEN He had purged our sins….” The word “when” is not in the Greek text and even your own NWT supports what I say. It reads thus: …and he sustains all things by the word of his power; and after he had made a purification for our sins He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. NWT The text simply says that he upholds all things by the word of His power without a reference to when. It is common sense that this was ALWAYS the case. So my points stand unanswered and  unrefuted: If Jesus “ceased to exist,” then who took over during the three days? And after the three days it must have been another “Son” who picked up where the first Son who “ceased to exist” left off. thinker thinker What does it mean for Jesus to bear our sins; I mean, why did he have to do that, and how do we benefit from that? Georg Georg, It means that He bore the guilt and punishment of our sins. Our sins had separated us from God. Jesus died IN OUR PLACE so we could be reconciled to God and enjoy Him forever. thinker

thinker

But why did Jesus have to do that?

Georg

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 03 2010,03:14)

Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 02 2010,20:22) Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 02 2010,02:45) Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 02 2010,02:36) Quote (david @ Jan. 30 2010,17:16) Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 29 2010,03:13) TO ALL: Jodi Lee and her lone disciple Gene have been saying that when Jesus died He “ceased to exist.” In reply to this I want to give two self evident facts: 1. If Jesus “ceased to exist” at death, then the spirit or soul that appeared in the body of Jesus after its resurrection is not the same Jesus but an imposter. If Jesus ceased to exist at death, then the spirit that appeared in His body was not the same spirit that was born in that body. It was not the same spirit that performed the works of God or that suffered for sin in that body. 2. If Jesus “ceased to exist” at death, then when Jesus died the universe would have collapsed and the “Son” who now upholds the universe is not the same Son of God. For we are told that all things are upheld by the word of the Son's power (Hebrews 1:3). So who upheld the universe for the three days? Did the Father “take over” for the three days and then afterwards transfer the obligation to another “Son?” Who upholds the universe now? It is not the same Jesus if He “ceased to exist.” thethinker Thinker, are you suggesting Jesus didn't really die?  What are you suggesting? Your first statement is NOT A FACT. Your second statement is based on a fact, but you twisted the timing of that fact and ingore much of the actual scripture you use to support your “fact.” Let's look at them shall we: Your first statement is based on a boatload of assumptions, none of which you can know.  Or have you died and came back to life?  Or, perhaps one of your friends have.  Which is it? We are all essentially our memories and our minds.  Right now, there are scientists who are looking into the future, believing one day they will be able to re-create a persons memories.  Do you not think the creator of …everything, can “re-create” a person's mind, or even Jesus' mind, with all the memories intact? Sheer nonsense! The scripture does NOT teach that “death” means to “cease to exist.” The Jesus that came forth from hades and from the tomb is the EXACT SAME Jesus who was born of Mary and who suffered and died and who bore our sins. A newly, re-created Jesus did not bear our sins. IT WAS THE HISTORICAL JESUS WHO BORE OUR SINS. A newly created Jesus is not the Historical Jesus! It's that simple! A soul that “ceases to exist” cannot rise. And a newly created soul is not the same soul that died. Jesus died but He did not cease to exist. Death does not mean “cease to exist.” David: Quote Right now, there are scientists who are looking into the future, believing one day they will be able to re-create a persons memories.  Do you not think the creator of …everything, can “re-create” a person's mind, or even Jesus' mind, with all the memories intact? Your rationalist and empiricist speech is a perfect example of how far anti-trinitarians will go. Did the original recipients have the scientific knowledge that we have today? If biblical truth is to be determined by the acquisition of scientific knowledge , then the original recipients had no way of knowing what the scriptures mean. David: Quote Your second statement is based on a fact, but you twisted the timing of that fact and ingore much of the actual scripture you use to support your “fact.” You say that I have “twisted” the timing of the Son's upholding the universe. I suppose you are referring to the statement that says that the Son “upholds all things by the word of His power WHEN He had purged our sins….” The word “when” is not in the Greek text and even your own NWT supports what I say. It reads thus: …and he sustains all things by the word of his power; and after he had made a purification for our sins He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. NWT The text simply says that he upholds all things by the word of His power without a reference to when. It is common sense that this was ALWAYS the case. So my points stand unanswered and  unrefuted: If Jesus “ceased to exist,” then who took over during the three days? And after the three days it must have been another “Son” who picked up where the first Son who “ceased to exist” left off. thinker thinker What does it mean for Jesus to bear our sins; I mean, why did he have to do that, and how do we benefit from that? Georg Georg, It means that He bore the guilt and punishment of our sins. Our sins had separated us from God. Jesus died IN OUR PLACE so we could be reconciled to God and enjoy Him forever. thinker thinker But why did Jesus have to do that? Georg

Because no mere man could do it.

thinker

[JustAskin]

TT wrote:

Quote

“It means that He bore the guilt and punishment of our sins. Our sins had separated us from God. Jesus died IN OUR PLACE so we could be reconciled to God and enjoy Him forever.”

May all the angels of heaven rejoice along with the Holy ones of mankind – TT has become one of us.

Welcome TT. Can all non-Trinitarians please applaud and Welcome TT to his new life.

[KangarooJack]

Quote (JustAskin @ Feb. 03 2010,06:04)

TT wrote: Quote “It means that He bore the guilt and punishment of our sins. Our sins had separated us from God. Jesus died IN OUR PLACE so we could be reconciled to God and enjoy Him forever.” May all the angels of heaven rejoice along with the Holy ones of mankind – TT has become one of us. Welcome TT. Can all non-Trinitarians please applaud and Welcome TT to his new life.

I never denied that Jesus “died.” I denied that His death meant that He “ceased to exist.” Poor try. Ridicule is all you have because you have no arguments.

thinker

[Elizabeth]

Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 03 2010,05:28)

Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 03 2010,03:14) Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 02 2010,20:22) Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 02 2010,02:45) Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 02 2010,02:36) Quote (david @ Jan. 30 2010,17:16) Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 29 2010,03:13) TO ALL: Jodi Lee and her lone disciple Gene have been saying that when Jesus died He “ceased to exist.” In reply to this I want to give two self evident facts: 1. If Jesus “ceased to exist” at death, then the spirit or soul that appeared in the body of Jesus after its resurrection is not the same Jesus but an imposter. If Jesus ceased to exist at death, then the spirit that appeared in His body was not the same spirit that was born in that body. It was not the same spirit that performed the works of God or that suffered for sin in that body. 2. If Jesus “ceased to exist” at death, then when Jesus died the universe would have collapsed and the “Son” who now upholds the universe is not the same Son of God. For we are told that all things are upheld by the word of the Son's power (Hebrews 1:3). So who upheld the universe for the three days? Did the Father “take over” for the three days and then afterwards transfer the obligation to another “Son?” Who upholds the universe now? It is not the same Jesus if He “ceased to exist.” thethinker Thinker, are you suggesting Jesus didn't really die?  What are you suggesting? Your first statement is NOT A FACT. Your second statement is based on a fact, but you twisted the timing of that fact and ingore much of the actual scripture you use to support your “fact.” Let's look at them shall we: Your first statement is based on a boatload of assumptions, none of which you can know.  Or have you died and came back to life?  Or, perhaps one of your friends have.  Which is it? We are all essentially our memories and our minds.  Right now, there are scientists who are looking into the future, believing one day they will be able to re-create a persons memories.  Do you not think the creator of …everything, can “re-create” a person's mind, or even Jesus' mind, with all the memories intact? Sheer nonsense! The scripture does NOT teach that “death” means to “cease to exist.” The Jesus that came forth from hades and from the tomb is the EXACT SAME Jesus who was born of Mary and who suffered and died and who bore our sins. A newly, re-created Jesus did not bear our sins. IT WAS THE HISTORICAL JESUS WHO BORE OUR SINS. A newly created Jesus is not the Historical Jesus! It's that simple! A soul that “ceases to exist” cannot rise. And a newly created soul is not the same soul that died. Jesus died but He did not cease to exist. Death does not mean “cease to exist.” David: Quote Right now, there are scientists who are looking into the future, believing one day they will be able to re-create a persons memories.  Do you not think the creator of …everything, can “re-create” a person's mind, or even Jesus' mind, with all the memories intact? Your rationalist and empiricist speech is a perfect example of how far anti-trinitarians will go. Did the original recipients have the scientific knowledge that we have today? If biblical truth is to be determined by the acquisition of scientific knowledge , then the original recipients had no way of knowing what the scriptures mean. David: Quote Your second statement is based on a fact, but you twisted the timing of that fact and ingore much of the actual scripture you use to support your “fact.” You say that I have “twisted” the timing of the Son's upholding the universe. I suppose you are referring to the statement that says that the Son “upholds all things by the word of His power WHEN He had purged our sins….” The word “when” is not in the Greek text and even your own NWT supports what I say. It reads thus: …and he sustains all things by the word of his power; and after he had made a purification for our sins He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. NWT The text simply says that he upholds all things by the word of His power without a reference to when. It is common sense that this was ALWAYS the case. So my points stand unanswered and  unrefuted: If Jesus “ceased to exist,” then who took over during the three days? And after the three days it must have been another “Son” who picked up where the first Son who “ceased to exist” left off. thinker thinker What does it mean for Jesus to bear our sins; I mean, why did he have to do that, and how do we benefit from that? Georg Georg, It means that He bore the guilt and punishment of our sins. Our sins had separated us from God. Jesus died IN OUR PLACE so we could be reconciled to God and enjoy Him forever. thinker thinker But why did Jesus have to do that? Georg Because no mere man could do it. thinker

thinker

So then after he died God forgave him his sins and resurrected him in his human body, is that the way you see it?

Georg

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