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Hi,
Looking at Phil 2.5f
“Christ Jesus ..though he existed in the form of God did not regard equality with God a thing to be GRASPED”725″harpagmos”from 726″harpazo”
=the act of seizing or the thing seized:
-a thing to be grasped.726 “hapazo”
=from a prim root “arp”;to seize,catch up, snatch away:
-carry off[1],caught up[4], snatch[2],snatched away[1]snatches[1], snatches away[1],snatching[1],takes away by force[1] take by force[2]727″harpax”from 726= rapacious;
– ravenous[1],swindler[1], swindlers[3]724 “harpage” from 726=pillage.
plundering;-robbery[2]seizure[1]So this verse in Phil 2 describes the attitude of the Son of God towards his Father. Was the Son of God a swindler or thief? Did he covet equality with the Father because it has to be twisted to make it say he already had that equality? No.
Believe it or not some can say this verse means he already had equality with his Father. If you look at the NASB concordance it describes a taking by force or snatching, a violent, unauthorised act of theft that he did not choose to involve himself in.
Either way it is clear there are two beings here and not one.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 22 2005,05:23) Hi,
Looking at Phil 2.5f
“Christ Jesus ..though he existed in the form of God did not regard equality with God a thing to be GRASPED”725″harpagmos”from 726″harpazo”
=the act of seizing or the thing seized:
-a thing to be grasped.726 “hapazo”
=from a prim root “arp”;to seize,catch up, snatch away:
-carry off[1],caught up[4], snatch[2],snatched away[1]snatches[1], snatches away[1],snatching[1],takes away by force[1] take by force[2]727″harpax”from 726= rapacious;
– ravenous[1],swindler[1], swindlers[3]724 “harpage” from 726=pillage.
plundering;-robbery[2]seizure[1]So this verse in Phil 2 describes the attitude of the Son of God towards his Father. Was the Son of God a swindler or thief? Did he covet equality with the Father because it has to be twisted to make it say he already had that equality? No.
Believe it or not some can say this verse means he already had equality with his Father. If you look at the NASB concordance it describes a taking by force or snatching, a violent, unauthorised act of theft that he did not choose to involve himself in.
Either way it is clear there are two beings here and not one.
What kind of “beings”?Hi FYI,
God is Spirit. God is the eternal divine Majesty.
The Son of God is of divine nature and the image of his Father and God.Hi ,
Yahweh is the Father of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ came in the flesh and not his Father. God is in heaven as Jesus told his followers when he was teaching them to pray.
“Our Father, who art in heaven…”Hi ,
Heb 5.1f
” For every high priest taken from among men is appointed on behalf of men IN THINGS AS PERTAINING TO GOD, in order to offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins”
Heb7.22f
“so much more also Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant, and the former priests on the one hand, existed in greater numbers, because they were prevented by death from continuing, but he, on the other hand, because he abides forever.holds his priesthood permanently. Hence also, he is able to save forever those who draw near to God through him, since he alsways lives to make intercession for them”So Jesus is not that God we need an intercessor and priest to relate to for us. He is the intermediary and priest for us bringing us back into RELATIONSHIP WITH HIS GOD just as he is in such a relationship WITH God.
Isaiah 9:6 – For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Matthew 1:23 – Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Zechariah 12:10 – And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me (YHWH) whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.Amen,
The Son is a glorious vessel for God. When he returns again he will still be that vessel.The Jews will see again the man but recognise for the first time the contents as the Father whom they rejected. God, by His Spirit, will stand on Mt Zion in the body of His Son.God with us.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Revelation 19:13 – And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Chapter and verse Nick,
no more conjecture
Yeshua is MarYah:
http://www.aramaicpeshitta.com/Online_Version/doctrine.htm
This word is ?MARYAH?. MarYah literally means Mar (Lord) Yah (name of God in the singular). YHWH, arguably Yahweh, is one of the names of Alaha. 0yrm (MarYah) is a compound name made from rm (“Lord”) and 0y (“Yah”, the accepted Aramaic shortened form of YHWH). YHWH is plural, while Yah is singular. Different groups of Judeans and other Semites in the time of Jesus, called Alaha by different names/titles, and one of those was ?MarYah?.
Jeremiah 31:31-33
“Look! The days are coming, says Mar-Yah, when I will make a New Covenant with the House of Israel and with the House of Judah. This New Covenant will not be like the Old Covenant which I enacted with their ancestors when I lead them by the hand out of the land of Egypt. Because they nullified My Covenant I did despise them, says Mar-Yah. Here is the New Covenant I shall enact with the House of Israel, after all this time, says Mar-Yah: I will instill my Torah in their inner being, and I will inscribe it Myself upon their hearts, and I will be their God and they shall be My People.”Hi FYI,
To claim Jesus Christ is Yahweh God is to:Deny who he said he was.
Deny that he is the Son of God.
Deny that he is the Son of Man.
Deny that the Son came in the flesh.
Deny that he was filled with the Spirit of God.
Deny that he came and worked in his Father's name.
Deny that Christ is mediator between God and man
Deny that Christ is the Great High Priest.
Deny that he is a prophet of God.
Deny that he is Advocate for us with God.
Deny that he is The Way.
Deny that he is the Good Shepherd.
Deny that he is the Vine.
Deny that he is the Lamb of God.Do I need to continue?
I prefer his words to the speculations of men.Have you ever talked to a Jehovah's Witness? They are FIRM FIRM believers that YHWH and Jesus Christ are in fact 2 seperate dieties. I would like you to take a look at two verses first within the King James Bible and next within the 'New World Translation'. Even their own Bible shows that YHWH is Jesus.
Isaiah 43:11 (KJV) I, [even] I, [am] the LORD; and beside me [there is] no saviour.
(NWT) http://watchtower.org/bible/isa/chapter_043.htm
AND
Titus 3:6 (KJV) Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
(NWT) http://watchtower.org/bible/tit/chapter_003.htmWhom do you say our savior is if the LORD said there is no other?
The question becomes even more clear in the NWT version.
Whom do you say is your savior if Jehovah (YHWH) says there is no other?
To deny that Jesus is not YHWH is to…
Deny Jesus is our savior.
To WhiteMateria,
It's easy to understand.
God is the only saviour. God is the only one who is good. But God delegates. He uses believers to preach the gospel so that unbelievers get the opportunity to believe. Yet it is still God that saves. Similary God decided to save mankind, so he sent his son into the world to save us. Jesus himself even asked for the cup to be removed, but he also said “Not my will but yours”.
Is Jesus good? I sure you would say yes.
But Jesus said “Why do you call me good?” “No one is good, except God alone.”Jesus is surely good, but he is the recipient of good and not the originator. Jesus even said that he only says what he hears his Father saying and does what he sees him doing. The truth is that it is God who does all these things, but he uses people, living beings such as angels, and primarliy his son to do his will. In fact he created all things through his son.
Saying that Jesus is God (YHWH) because God is our only saviour and Jesus is also called a saviour is a weak argument to make. That is like saying that Joseph and Barnabas are God, because only God is good and scripture says the following:
Luke 23:50
Now there was a man named Joseph, a member of the Council, a good and upright man,or Acts 11:24
He was a good man, full of the Holy Spirit and faith, and a great number of people were brought to the Lord.You see both are said to be good and yet Jesus taught clearly that only God is good and that no man is righteous or good.
So how is this apparent contradiction cleared up?
When we understand that only God is good, but he freely gifts us with his goodness in order that we can become good like God. We receive it, we do not generate it from ourself.So God is the true saviour and he sent his son to save. But it was still God that did it, but through his son.
If you understand the following question then you have the answer:
2 Corinthians 5:19
that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.I'm going to give you a time machine. I would like you to travel back in time to the days when Jesus Christ was alive. I would like for you to witness to the Jews who became his disciples BEFORE they became his disciples.
“Hey Peter… I represent church so and so. Now I know you are a devout Jew and all but I've come to bring you a message. Do you see that man over there? Yeah the one they call Jesus Christ? Thats him! Yes, Yes that very same one you've seen healing the sick, raising the dead, and say stuff about being the Son of God? I'd like you to believe one thing if you could….
He claims that he is your savior. This is indeed good news and I feel you should believe it to.
Now I understand that you take your Jewish readings of the (OT) scrolls very carefully. I also understand it says in Isaiah 43:11 that your God has said that there is NO other savior besides him. Nevermind that verse for I've gotta tell you ever since I've become a Christian I can believe that this man is ALSO my savior and he should be yours. So how about it… Won't you become a Christian today?”
Question: How would the early Jews ever have become Christian if they had come to believe that Jesus was one other than Jehovah (YHWH)? How does this still hold true for today's Christian community?
These Jews could simply have said to Jesus when he said “Follow Me” something to the effect of: Well buddy it says here that our only savior is YHWH and since you are not him you are not truely inspired by God. Why should we follow you?
To claim Jesus is our savior is and believe YHWH and Jesus are 2 entirely seperate dieties is…
To claim that the early Jews must have gone against what God said earlier in the Bible.
To claim that Jesus was a madman to go against his father's will.Jesus clearly said that he has followed all his father's commandments.
Do you believe the following statement? Let every man be called a lier but let Jesus Christ be called a bigger lier.
I would hope not.
To WhiteMateria,
Quote (WhiteMateria @ July 10 2005,00:31) Question: How would the early Jews ever have become Christian if they had come to believe that Jesus was one other than Jehovah (YHWH)? How does this still hold true for today's Christian community?
John 8:42
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.Simply put, the Jews killed the prophets that were sent to them. But in the last days he sent his son. Surely they would listen. But they did not.
Jesus came as the son, that is what he declared, and it is what he commended Peter on and even built his church upon.
If Yeshua said to the Jews, that he was Yahweh, they could have stoned him on the spot. But he never said that he was YHWH did he?
Jesus came as the son and preached the Kingdom of HIS God. He came in his Father's name. Saying that one is YHWH is not going to make the Jews believe anything apart from perhaps that you are mad.
Even in heaven God calls his Father his God and he said on earth that his God was also our God.
John 20:17 (English-NIV)
Jesus said, Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them,
`I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.Revelation 3:12 (English-NIV)
Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God.
Never again will he leave it.
I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name.Quote Let every man be called a lier but let Jesus Christ be called a bigger lier. This is exactly the point I made earlier or in another post to you.
You can't make absolute statements saying Jesus is God based on the fact that both God and Jesus are called saviour. Likewise you cannot say that Jesus was a liar because it says that all men are liars. Are you a liar?In actual fact, anyone who saves is a savior. A fireman can be called a savior. But God is the only one who saves our soul even if it is through Jesus. It is God who resurrects us. He also resurrected his son. Likewise God created all things but through his son. But God is still the creator of all (good) things.
I wonder if you can see that?
BTW, nor I or anyone else here that I know of is a JW. I have never been a JW. On a few ocassions JWs have posted here, but very few.
Simply put none of these other prophets were called saviors.
Jesus humbled himself while on Earth so that he may be obdient even unto death. Yet the disciples figured out who he really was. Thomas exclaimed “My Lord and My God” and Jesus said to him that because he saw he believed but blessed are those who have not seen and believe.
Many may be called a savior but who the Bible says is the Savior is probably the most important savior to you. I imagine that the early Christians were also found to be liers when they said Jesus Christ is also our savior. Surely they were not in accordance to God's Word.
I used the JW example because their bible is quite clear on when to show between YHWH and Jesus Christ. They belive 'LORD' or 'God' to be a title. Since they actually put a name on what they believe to be 2 seperate deities it clears up things. One should read the 'New World Translation' and they can see for themselves that when you think of these terms of 'Diety 1' and 'Diety 2' by their names it really makes things alot clearer. No other Bible I know of supports that God is Jesus more so than this version and this is the official Bible used by the Jdubs who do not believe in the Trinity.
To WhiteMateria,
How many saviors are there? How many gods are there? How many lords are there?
Is there 1 God, yet it says: “there are many “gods” and many “lords”.
1 Corinthians 8:5-6 (English-NIV)
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.I think that your dilema goes away when you understand what that verse is saying. There are indeed many gods, but for us there is one God the Father. There are many lords. Landlords, warlords, lord of the manor, lord of this and that. But for us there is one Lord Jesus Christ.
God is our only savior, and he sent his son to save, which now makes him a saviour too. Before that was he a saviour?
God sent Moses to save his people. He too was a saviour, but yet he is not God. In actual fact Moses was the vessel that God chose to save his people. It was all God's doing.
There is no need to be confused by all this. It is quite clear. Once you empty your mind of yourself and let God show you truth as a little child it is clear. On the otherhand, God doesn't reveal his truth to the wicked but to the innocent.
If you wish to be great in the Kingdom of God, then become like a little child and you will understand. God will delight in showing you his truth when you are like a child.
Jesus once said that a man cannot have 2 masters…
Jesus also once said to follow meCan a man have 2 masters?
Can a man follow Jesus and YHWH?A child understands the following…
God said he was the only savior.
The early Christians also call Jesus Christ their savior.The bible is quite clear who is the true savior.
God said he was the only true God.
God said that you shall have no other god's before him.The bible is quite clear what you are to do with these other so called gods.
Both issues have been addressed and ah how simple it really is. A child could understand it even!
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