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hi FYI,
I certainly do agree Christ preexisted all creation as the Word. He was with the Father and all creation from the Father came through him.
Actually I believe the other sons of God are more likely Archangels.They have a variety of names in scripture such as princes and elders and gods.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 21 2005,00:15) hi FYI,
I certainly do agree Christ preexisted all creation as the Word. He was with the Father and all creation from the Father came through him.
Actually I believe the other sons of God are more likely Archangels.They have a variety of names in scripture such as princes and elders and gods.
Nick,Most of the information available on the “sons of God” is extra-biblical in the apocryphal OT. However some scripture in the NT hints of it as well as extra-biblical writings of the early church fathers and Josephus.
Here's what is available without commentary from my personal electronic library:
Colossians 1:16 – For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Angels are ministering spirits, and that was exactly the context of their work in Job:
Hebrews 1:14 – Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
Genesis 6:1 Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, 2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose. 3 And the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” 4 There were giants (nephilim) on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.
Enoch 6: 1 And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto 2 them beautiful and comely daughters. And the angels, the children of the heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: 'Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men 3 and beget us children.' And Semjaza, who was their leader, said unto them: 'I fear ye will not 4 indeed agree to do this deed, and I alone shall have to pay the penalty of a great sin.' And they all answered him and said: 'Let us all swear an oath, and all bind ourselves by mutual imprecations 5 not to abandon this plan but to do this thing.' Then sware they all together and bound themselves 6 by mutual imprecations upon it. And they were in all two hundred; who descended in the days of Jared on the summit of Mount Hermon, and they called it Mount Hermon, because they had sworn 7 and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it. And these are the names of their leaders: Samlazaz, their leader, Araklba, Rameel, Kokablel, Tamlel, Ramlel, Danel, Ezeqeel, Baraqijal, 8 Asael, Armaros, Batarel, Ananel, Zaq1el, Samsapeel, Satarel, Turel, Jomjael, Sariel. These are their chiefs of tens.
also ref. The Book of Jubilees 5:1-2
2 Peter 2: 4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell (tartarus-the abyss), and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
Jude 6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
A side note:
It appears that Jude quotes from the Book of Enoch on at least two occasions.
The one being about the “sons of God”/angels.
The other being:
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Refering to the return of Christ
Hope this helps
Quote (Guest @ June 21 2005,00:33) A side note: It appears that Jude quotes from the Book of Enoch on at least two occasions.
The one being about the “sons of God”/angels.
The other being:
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Refering to the return of Christ
Hope this helps
Yes FYI,
I love Enoch.It would better if i could find a concordance for it though.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 21 2005,00:15) hi FYI,
I certainly do agree Christ preexisted all creation as the Word. He was with the Father and all creation from the Father came through him.
Actually I believe the other sons of God are more likely Archangels.They have a variety of names in scripture such as princes and elders and gods.
Nick,Is it my understanding then of your doctrine that you class Christ as the first of the “sons of God” thereby placing him in the class of angels?
Quote (Guest @ June 21 2005,11:04) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 21 2005,00:15) hi FYI,
I certainly do agree Christ preexisted all creation as the Word. He was with the Father and all creation from the Father came through him.
Actually I believe the other sons of God are more likely Archangels.They have a variety of names in scripture such as princes and elders and gods.
Nick,Is it my understanding then of your doctrine that you class Christ as the first of the “sons of God” thereby placing him in the class of angels?
Nonsense FYI.
Tell that to the JWs. But neither do I believe he is God Himself but the Son of God as the bible reveals.Quote (Guest @ June 21 2005,00:29) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 21 2005,00:15) hi FYI,
I certainly do agree Christ preexisted all creation as the Word. He was with the Father and all creation from the Father came through him.
Actually I believe the other sons of God are more likely Archangels.They have a variety of names in scripture such as princes and elders and gods.
Nick,Most of the information available on the “sons of God” is extra-biblical in the apocryphal OT. However some scripture in the NT hints of it as well as extra-biblical writings of the early church fathers and Josephus.
Here's what is available without commentary from my personal electronic library:
Colossians 1:16 – For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Angels are ministering spirits, and that was exactly the context of their work in Job:
Hebrews 1:14 – Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
Genesis 6:1 Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, 2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose. 3 And the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” 4 There were giants (nephilim) on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.
Enoch 6: 1 And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto 2 them beautiful and comely daughters. And the angels, the children of the heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: 'Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men 3 and beget us children.' And Semjaza, who was their leader, said unto them: 'I fear ye will not 4 indeed agree to do this deed, and I alone shall have to pay the penalty of a great sin.' And they all answered him and said: 'Let us all swear an oath, and all bind ourselves by mutual imprecations 5 not to abandon this plan but to do this thing.' Then sware they all together and bound themselves 6 by mutual imprecations upon it. And they were in all two hundred; who descended in the days of Jared on the summit of Mount Hermon, and they called it Mount Hermon, because they had sworn 7 and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it. And these are the names of their leaders: Samlazaz, their leader, Araklba, Rameel, Kokablel, Tamlel, Ramlel, Danel, Ezeqeel, Baraqijal, 8 Asael, Armaros, Batarel, Ananel, Zaq1el, Samsapeel, Satarel, Turel, Jomjael, Sariel. These are their chiefs of tens.
also ref. The Book of Jubilees 5:1-2
2 Peter 2: 4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell (tartarus-the abyss), and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
Jude 6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
Hi FYI,
To whom were the angels ministering in Job 1,2 and 38? You need to separate angels from archangels, watchers from messengers.Great Nick,
I was getting worried because of the following:
The believers, according to Paul, will judge angels, Christ (YHWH incarnate) will judge us!
1 Corinthians 6:3 – Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, matters pertaining to this life!
Hebrews 1:5 – For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Hebrews 1:13 – But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
The point of the argument is that Jesus is NOT in the class of angels, he is equal and in unity with God the Father.
Philippians 2:6 – who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped (prized, held on to),
In fact, exaltation of or worshipping of angels is forbidden and rebuked in ALL of scripture.
Colossians 2:18 – Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
John 20:28 – Thomas answered him, “My Lord (kurios) and my God!”
Revelations 22: 6 And he said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. And the Lord (kurios), the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place. 7 And behold, I am coming soon.” Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book. 8 I John am he who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me; 9 but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brethren the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.”
Worship of God the Father and Christ our Lord:
Revelation 5:13 – And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
Revelation 7:10 – And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
John 5:23 – That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
Just a bit of the topic. FYI, can you maybe give me information why you say this is a quote from Enoch : “It appears that Jude quotes from the Book of Enoch on at least two occasions.
The one being about the “sons of God”/angels.”
Thanx
Quote (Cobusvw @ June 21 2005,12:32) Just a bit of the topic. FYI, can you maybe give me information why you say this is a quote from Enoch : “It appears that Jude quotes from the Book of Enoch on at least two occasions. The one being about the “sons of God”/angels.”
Thanx
Cobusvw,Book of Enoch 1: …But with the righteous He will make peace, And will protect the elect, And. mercy shall be upon them. And they shall all belong to God, And they shall be prospered, And they shall all be blessed. And He will help them all, And light shall appear unto them, And He will make peace with them. 9 And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones To execute judgment upon all, And to destroy all the ungodly: And to convict all flesh of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed, And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.
Compare:
Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. 16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage. 17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; 18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. 19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
Quote (Guest @ June 21 2005,11:30) Great Nick, I was getting worried because of the following:
The believers, according to Paul, will judge angels, Christ (YHWH incarnate) will judge us!
1 Corinthians 6:3 – Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, matters pertaining to this life!
Hebrews 1:5 – For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Hebrews 1:13 – But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
The point of the argument is that Jesus is NOT in the class of angels, he is equal and in unity with God the Father.
Philippians 2:6 – who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped (prized, held on to),
In fact, exaltation of or worshipping of angels is forbidden and rebuked in ALL of scripture.
Colossians 2:18 – Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
John 20:28 – Thomas answered him, “My Lord (kurios) and my God!”
Revelations 22: 6 And he said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. And the Lord (kurios), the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place. 7 And behold, I am coming soon.” Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book. 8 I John am he who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me; 9 but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brethren the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.”
Worship of God the Father and Christ our Lord:
Revelation 5:13 – And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
Revelation 7:10 – And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
John 5:23 – That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
Absolutely FYI,
The Only Begotten Son of God was always higher that the angels. That is why it is significant that as Hebrews tells us he became for a time lower than the angels. This scripture also distinguishes him from the angels as otherwise it would apply to him too surely.Hi,
Looking at Phil 2, if I am holding something then I do not grasp at it because i have it. To “Grasp”or”seize”as “harpazo” is translated, tells us the person grasping or seizing does not have what is being discussed. If they did they would not seize it. It does not mean “to hold onto what I already have”
So the Son of God never did have nor want equality with his God. If he did you are saying anyway he is separate from God to take something from God so he cannot be that God by your logic. You are saying he is a separate deity to be worshipped.
Again I ask.Do you worship two deities if Jesus is a separate deity?That's funny Nick,
You think that Jesus “emptied” himself of something He could not “grab”?
So you think He was “grabbing” for equality and couldn't get it so decided to come and die on a cross?
LOL, very Loud!!!
Hi FYI,
Once again sadly you get the wrong end of the stick.
Phil 2.5f
” Have this attitude among yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, ALTHOUGH EXISTING IN THE FORM OF GOD, DID NOT REGARD EQUALITY WITH GOD A THING TO BE GRASPED, but emptied himself, taking the form of a bondservant, and being made in the likeness of men.”So he had divine nature.
He was not equal to God.
He could have chosen to seek equality with God.
He did not.
Instead he emptied himself of his power and glory and became as man.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 22 2005,02:51) Hi FYI,
Once again sadly you get the wrong end of the stick.
Phil 2.5f
” Have this attitude among yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, ALTHOUGH EXISTING IN THE FORM OF GOD, DID NOT REGARD EQUALITY WITH GOD A THING TO BE GRASPED, but emptied himself, taking the form of a bondservant, and being made in the likeness of men.”So he had divine nature.
He was not equal to God.
He could have chosen to seek equality with God.
He did not.
Instead he emptied himself of his power and glory and became as man.
Got to give you credit for trying Nick,Philippians 2:6 – who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross.
Grasped is “passive” it means to prize, hold on to that which you already possess:
akin to harpazo, “to seize, carry off by force,” is found in Phil. 2:6, “(counted it not) a prize,” RV (marg., “a thing to be grasped”), AV, “(thought it not) robbery;” it may have two meanings, (a) in the Active sense, “the act of seizing, robbery,” a meaning in accordance with a rule connected with its formation; (b) in the Passive sense, “a thing held as a prize.” The subject is capably treated by Gifford in “The Incarnation,” pp. 28,36, from which the following is quoted:
“In order to express the meaning of the clause quite clearly, a slight alteration is required in the RV, 'Counted it not a prize to be on an equality with God.' The form 'to be' is ambiguous and easily lends itself to the erroneous notion that to be on equality with God was something to be acquired in the future. The rendering 'counted it not a prize that He was on an equality with God,' is quite as accurate and more free from ambiguity. … Assuming, as we now may, that the equality was something which Christ possessed prior to His Incarnation, and then for a time resigned we have … to choose between two meanings of the word harpagmos (1) with the Active sense 'robbery' or 'usurpation' we get the following meaning: 'Who because He was subsisting in the essential form of God, did not regard it as any usurpation that He was on an equality of glory and majesty with God, but yet emptied Himself of that coequal glory…' (2) The Passive sense gives a different meaning to the passage: 'Who though He was subsisting in the essential form of God, yet did not regard His being on an equality of glory and majesty with God as a prize and a treasure to be held fast, but emptied himself thereof.”
After reviewing the arguments pro and con Gifford takes the latter to be the right meaning, as conveying the purpose of the passage “to set forth Christ as the supreme example of humility and self-renunciation.”
The entire passage is to teach US true humility.
The point is that Christ laid down His equality with God the Father to become a servant, otherwise the lesson is meaningless.
It would according to Nick be:
Since you can't be equal to God you must submit.
That is NO example at all – it is more than a stretch of the interpretation – it is an outright lie!
Phillipians 2: 1 So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any incentive of love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy, 2 complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind. 3 Do nothing from selfishness or conceit, but in humility count others better than yourselves. 4 Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. 5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped (prized), 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Yes ,FYI,
It is poorly translated by the KJV and some commentators will give it a double and even a reverse meaning because of that. Imagine any other word for “take by force” to also mean ” to hold fast to what I already have”!!
Of course the KJV was written under trintarian bias. It is better to compare other interpretations.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 22 2005,03:19) Yes ,FYI,
It is poorly translated by the KJV and some commentators will give it a double and even a reverse meaning because of that. Imagine any other word for “take by force” to also mean ” to hold fast to what I already have”!!
Of course the KJV was written under trintarian bias. It is better to compare other interpretations.
Too bad Nick,That weas NOT the KJV,
it is the Revised Standard Version.
I believe the experts over you any day!
Hi FYI,
I did not expect respect from you.
Again the RSV says ” grasped”. Have you checked the greek?The Moon is not the Sun and Jesus is not Yahweh, who is his Father and his God.
Nick,
FYI is correct when he writesQuote Grasped is “passive” it means to prize, hold on to that which you already possess: akin to harpazo, “to seize, carry off by force,” is found in Phil. 2:6, “(counted it not) a prize,” RV (marg., “a thing to be grasped”), AV, “(thought it not) robbery;” it may have two meanings, (a) in the Active sense, “the act of seizing, robbery,” a meaning in accordance with a rule connected with its formation; (b) in the Passive sense, “a thing held as a prize.”
Listen to him, he actually knows what he talking about.
A sound exegesis FYI, well done.
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