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Quote 1 John 4:12 12 No one has ever seen God. But if we love each other, God lives in us, and his love is brought to full expression in us.
Exodus 33:11
11 The LORD (Jehovah) would speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks with his friend.
This expression denotes intimate two-way conversation. Moses talked with God’s representative and orally received instruction from Jehovah through him. But Moses did not see Jehovah, since ‘no man can see God and yet live.’ In fact, Jehovah did not personally speak to Moses. The Law “was transmitted through angels by the hand of a mediator,” states Galatians 3:19.
What God permitted Moses to see was His passing glory. Verses 21-23 state: “And Jehovah said further: ‘Here is a place with me, and you must station yourself upon the rock. And it has to occur that while my glory is passing by I must place you in a hole in the rock, and I must put my palm over you as a screen until I have passed by. After that I must take my palm away, and you will indeed see my back. But my face may not be seen.’”
Again, this didn't literally mean his actual face, like your face or mine.
In harmony with what Jehovah told Moses and what the apostle John said, Moses saw no materialization or material form of God. All that Moses saw was the afterglow of the divine presence passing by. Even then he had to be divinely protected. Obviously, it was not God himself that Moses saw.
scripture makes plain that “man” made of flesh cannot see God Almighty. It would be like looking into the sun, at close up range, for example. You see God, you die. He's just too powerful for our frail flesh.
Yet, the scripture says that Moses would speak to God face to face, as friends.
Does God have a face, like you and I, with a nose to smell? Does he need ears to hear soundwaves? Speaking face to face with God just denotes their closeness. Everything else in scritpure indicates that this is what is meant.Quote Not a bad answer. I have heard something like that before. What of the rest of my post?
Quote however, moses still did see Jehovah from the cleft. Let's just stick with one thing for a moment.
Quote
It says he saw his back.Question: What is his “back”?
Is it the back side of him, with bones and flesh? Does he have skin on his “back”?
Do the muscles in his “back” move him?The Bible says “God is a spirit.”
At this he said: “Cause me to see, please, your glory.” –ex 33:18
His “glory” is what he asked to see and his “glory” is what he saw.
I agree but is Jehovah of the same spirit as the Most High.
Is Jehovah THAT angel?
After all Jesus rebuked is disciples for them asking if they could call down fire to consume their enemies like elijah did.
Jesus said that they knew not what manner of spirit they are following.
“You are not able to see my face, because no man [Or, “earthling man.” Heb., ha·’a·dham′.] may see me and yet live.”
This is not to say no human will never see God. I believe some will put on immortality and be given “divine nature” and hence, are the ones who will see God.
“Happy are the pure in heart, since they will see God.”–matthew 5:8
1 JOHN 3:2
“Beloved ones, now we are children of God, but as yet it has not been made manifest what we shall be. We do know that whenever he is made manifest we shall be like him, because we shall see him just as he is.”Quote (david @ Jan. 08 2008,16:10) At this he said: “Cause me to see, please, your glory.” –ex 33:18 His “glory” is what he asked to see and his “glory” is what he saw.
so you are defining glory as a glow?The description of Moses seeing Jehovah from the Cleft is extrememly anthropomorphic. You really have to assume alot to suggest that Jehovah is not using his HAND to cover the cleft as he passes and then shows his BACK.
“It has not been made manifest what we shall be” he said. But, they “shall be like him [God]” and shall “see him just as he is.”
Man cannot see God, literally.
2 PETER 1:4
“Through these things he has freely given us the precious and very grand promises, that through these YOU may become sharers in divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world through lust.”Those who become sharers in divine nature, will be like God, spirits, and will therefore be able to see God.
Quote The description of Moses seeing Jehovah from the Cleft is extrememly anthropomorphic. You really have to assume alot to suggest that Jehovah is not using his HAND to cover the cleft as he passes and then shows his BACK. THE “HAND” AND “THE FINGER OF GOD”
“It is the finger of God!” the magic-practicing priests of Egypt admitted when they failed to turn dust into gnats, as Moses had done. (Exodus 8:18, 19) On Mount Sinai, Jehovah gave Moses “tablets of stone written on by God’s finger.” (Exodus 31:18) Was this a literal finger? No. Jehovah obviously does not have literal fingers. What, then? Bible writers Luke and Matthew give us the key. One recorded that “by means of God’s finger,” Jesus expelled demons. The other explained that Jesus did this “by means of God’s spirit.” (Luke 11:20; Matthew 12:28) So the holy spirit is “God’s finger,” his instrument for accomplishing his will. It is not a person, but God’s dynamic active force.
The “spirit of God” is synonymous with the “hand” and “the finger” of God (Ezek. 3:14; Job 26:13; Ps. 8:3; Luke 11:20).MATTHEW 12:28
“But if it is by means of GOD'S SPIRIT that I expel the demons, the kingdom of God has really overtaken YOU.”
LUKE 11:20
“But if it is by means of GOD'S FINGER I expel the demons, the kingdom of God has really overtaken YOU.”Hence, I do not believe that they use an actual “finger” of God, but rather, they used a word we understand “finger” to describe something harder to understand (God's holy spirit)
And what do our fingers or hands do? Whatever we want them to.
God's holy spirit is used by God to carry out his purpose and will.JEHOVAH'S “ARM”
The “arm” of Jehovah God is immeasurably powerful, able to do marvelous creative works. (Jer 27:5; 32:17) By his “arm” Jehovah also rules (Isa 40:10; Eze 20:33), saves those in distress (Ps 44:3; Isa 52:10), delivers his people (Ex 6:6; Isa 63:12; Ac 13:17), supports and cares for them (De 33:27; Isa 40:11; Ho 11:3), judges (Isa 51:5), and scatters his enemies (Ps 89:10; Lu 1:51).People understand that “arm” means strength. So God inspired his writers to use that word to convey that thought. God does not use a literal arm to do anything. His strenght is not in muscles, but in his spirit.
Quote (david @ Jan. 08 2008,16:17) “It has not been made manifest what we shall be” he said. But, they “shall be like him [God]” and shall “see him just as he is.” Man cannot see God, literally.
2 PETER 1:4
“Through these things he has freely given us the precious and very grand promises, that through these YOU may become sharers in divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world through lust.”Those who become sharers in divine nature, will be like God, spirits, and will therefore be able to see God.
I agree David. I know no man can see the Most High.The question is who was the God of Israel? The Most High or a principality?
Did Jesus put this prinicipality to shame by nailing his curse of a Law to a tree?
Why was Deuteronomy 32:8-9 covered up in the masoretic tradition?
Why do apocryphal books and other segments of christianity reject Jehovah or at least describe him as a lesser elohim.
Quote (david @ Jan. 08 2008,16:22) Quote The description of Moses seeing Jehovah from the Cleft is extrememly anthropomorphic. You really have to assume alot to suggest that Jehovah is not using his HAND to cover the cleft as he passes and then shows his BACK. THE “HAND” AND “THE FINGER OF GOD”
“It is the finger of God!” the magic-practicing priests of Egypt admitted when they failed to turn dust into gnats, as Moses had done. (Exodus 8:18, 19) On Mount Sinai, Jehovah gave Moses “tablets of stone written on by God’s finger.” (Exodus 31:18) Was this a literal finger? No. Jehovah obviously does not have literal fingers. What, then? Bible writers Luke and Matthew give us the key. One recorded that “by means of God’s finger,” Jesus expelled demons. The other explained that Jesus did this “by means of God’s spirit.” (Luke 11:20; Matthew 12:28) So the holy spirit is “God’s finger,” his instrument for accomplishing his will. It is not a person, but God’s dynamic active force.
The “spirit of God” is synonymous with the “hand” and “the finger” of God (Ezek. 3:14; Job 26:13; Ps. 8:3; Luke 11:20).MATTHEW 12:28
“But if it is by means of GOD'S SPIRIT that I expel the demons, the kingdom of God has really overtaken YOU.”
LUKE 11:20
“But if it is by means of GOD'S FINGER I expel the demons, the kingdom of God has really overtaken YOU.”Hence, I do not believe that they use an actual “finger” of God, but rather, they used a word we understand “finger” to describe something harder to understand (God's holy spirit)
And what do our fingers or hands do? Whatever we want them to.
God's holy spirit is used by God to carry out his purpose and will.JEHOVAH'S “ARM”
The “arm” of Jehovah God is immeasurably powerful, able to do marvelous creative works. (Jer 27:5; 32:17) By his “arm” Jehovah also rules (Isa 40:10; Eze 20:33), saves those in distress (Ps 44:3; Isa 52:10), delivers his people (Ex 6:6; Isa 63:12; Ac 13:17), supports and cares for them (De 33:27; Isa 40:11; Ho 11:3), judges (Isa 51:5), and scatters his enemies (Ps 89:10; Lu 1:51).People understand that “arm” means strength. So God inspired his writers to use that word to convey that thought. God does not use a literal arm to do anything. His strenght is not in muscles, but in his spirit.
i'd agree with that. But that does solve the problem of moses being able to look at the hand and back of God. He didn't look at a symbolic metaphor. He saw Jehovah's back side and hand.JOHN 1:18
“No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.”Not sure if I have this scripture in here, but it belongs.
Quote (david @ Jan. 08 2008,16:27) JOHN 1:18
“No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.”Not sure if I have this scripture in here, but it belongs.
so Jesus revealed God on sinai?EXODUS 33:18-34:27
“At this he said: “Cause me to see, please, your glory.” But he said: “I myself shall cause all my goodness to pass before your face, and I will declare the name of Jehovah before you; and I will favor the one whom I may favor, and I will show mercy to the one to whom I may show mercy.” And he added: “You are not able to see my face, because no man may see me and yet live.” And Jehovah said further: “Here is a place with me, and you must station yourself upon the rock. And it has to occur that while my glory is passing by I must place you in a hole in the rock, and I must put my palm over you as a screen until I have passed by. After that I must take my palm away, and you will indeed see my back. But my face may not be seen.”Then Jehovah said to Moses: “Carve out for yourself two tablets of stone like the first ones, and I must write upon the tablets the words that appeared on the first tablets, which you shattered. And get ready for the morning, as you must go up in the morning into Mount Si′nai and station yourself by me there on the top of the mountain. But nobody may go up with you and, too, let nobody else be seen in all the mountain. What is more, no flock or herd should be pasturing in front of that mountain.” Accordingly Moses carved out two tablets of stone like the first ones and got up early in the morning and went on up into Mount Si′nai, just as Jehovah had commanded him, and he was taking the two tablets of stone in his hand. And Jehovah proceeded to come down in the cloud and station himself with him there and declare the name of Jehovah. And Jehovah went passing by before his face and declaring: “Jehovah, Jehovah, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abundant in loving-kindness and truth, preserving loving-kindness for thousands, pardoning error and transgression and sin, but by no means will he give exemption from punishment, bringing punishment for the error of fathers upon sons and upon grandsons, upon the third generation and upon the fourth generation.” Moses at once hurried to bow low to the earth and prostrate himself. Then he said: “If, now, I have found favor in your eyes, O Jehovah, let Jehovah, please, go along in the midst of us, because it is a stiff-necked people, and you have to forgive our error and our sin, and you must take us as your possession.” In turn he said: “Here I am concluding a covenant: Before all your people I shall do wonderful things that have never been created in all the earth or among all the nations; and all the people in the midst of whom you are will indeed see the work of Jehovah, because it is a fear-inspiring thing that I am doing with you. “For your part keep what I am commanding you today. Here I am driving out from before you the Am′or·ites and the Ca′naan·ites and the Hit′tites and the Per′iz·zites and the Hi′vites and the Jeb′u·sites. Watch yourself that you do not conclude a covenant with the inhabitants of the land to which you are going, for fear it may prove itself a snare in your midst. But their altars YOU people are to pull down, and their sacred pillars YOU are to shatter, and their sacred poles YOU are to cut down. For you must not prostrate yourself to another god, because Jehovah, whose name is Jealous, he is a jealous God; for fear that you may conclude a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, as they will certainly have immoral intercourse with their gods and sacrifice to their gods, and someone will be certain to invite you, and you will certainly eat some of his sacrifice. Then you will have to take some of their daughters for your sons, and their daughters will be certain to have immoral intercourse with their gods and make your sons have immoral intercourse with their gods. “You must not make molten idol gods for yourself. “The festival of unfermented cakes you are to keep. You will eat unfermented cakes, just as I have commanded you, seven days at the appointed time in the month of A′bib, because it was in the month of A′bib that you came out of Egypt. “Everything that first opens the womb is mine, and, as regards all your livestock, the male firstling of bull and of sheep. And the firstling of an ass you are to redeem with a sheep. But if you will not redeem it, then you must break its neck. Every firstborn of your sons you are to redeem. And they must not appear before me empty-handed. “Six days you are to labor, but on the seventh day you will keep sabbath. In plowing time and in harvest you will keep sabbath. “And you will carry on your festival of weeks with the first ripe fruits of the wheat harvest, and the festival of ingathering at the turn of the year. “Three times in the year every male of yours is to appear before the [true] Lord, Jehovah, the God of Israel. For I shall drive the nations away from before you, and I will make your territory spacious; and nobody will desire your land while you are going up to see the face of Jehovah your God three times in the year. “You must not slaughter along with what is leavened the blood of my sacrifice. And the sacrifice of the festival of the passover should not stay overnight until the morning. “The best of the first ripe fruits of your soil you are to bring to the house of Jehovah your God. “You must not boil a kid in its mother’s milk.” And Jehovah went on to say to Moses: “Write down for yourself these words, because it is in accordance with these words that I do conclude a covenant with you and Israel.””
GALATIANS 3:19
“Why, then, THE LAW? It was added to make transgressions manifest, until the seed should arrive to whom the promise had been made; and IT WAS TRANSMITTED THROUGH ANGELS by the hand of a mediator.”Of course, the actual account doesn't say anything about angels. But according to this scripture, the law was transmitted through angels.
So for example, the last sentence:
And Jehovah went on to say to Moses: “Write down for yourself these words, because it is in accordance with these words that I do conclude a covenant with you and Israel.””
Great people of importance often use representatives to speak for them. It says that “Jehovah went on to say” but he was no doubt using a representative, as Galations indicates, an angelic representative.It could say: “Jehovah went onto say through his angel” but it doesn't. It doesn't need to. Jehovah as the creator of the universe, is … powerful. The energy behind the universe…immence. To see Jehovah, as a man….death.
I know we're thinking of the word “back” as …a back, but that word simply means “rear parts” I believe. Imagine it as Moses seeing the moon, if the moon were a bazilliion times brighter. But Moses saw the “back” of the moon, the darker side.
Again, we are created in God's image. God is love. We are created in that image. This doesn't mean that God has eyes like ours, that need light to see. The Bible says he sees …everything. Our eyes can't do that. We shouldn't think of God as a man, like us.
ACTS 7:38
“This is he that came to be among the congregation in the wilderness with THE ANGEL THAT SPOKE TO HIM ON MOUNT SINAI and with our forefathers, and he received living sacred pronouncements to give YOU.”GALATIANS 3:19
“Why, then, THE LAW? It was added to make transgressions manifest, until the seed should arrive to whom the promise had been made; and IT WAS TRANSMITTED THROUGH ANGELS by the hand of a mediator.”I am well aware that angels gave the Law. I even agree that Moses saw an angel.
It seems that sometimes you say Moses saw a “glow” of the Most High and then the rest an angel? Is this true?
I am suggesting he saw an angel the whole time.
I am trying point out that the angel is the one named YHWH not the Most High.
This angel is the one the jews worshipped as paul said in col. 2.
Don't let those who worship angels hinder you.
Since he is a Spirit beyond the power of humans to see (Joh 4:24), any description of his appearance in human terms can only approximate his incomparable glory. (Isa 40:25, 26) While not actually seeing their Creator (Joh 1:18), certain of his servants were given inspired visions of his heavenly courts. Their description of his presence portrays not only great dignity and awesome majesty but also serenity, order, beauty, and pleasantness.—Ex 24:9-11; Isa 6:1; Eze 1:26-28; Da 7:9; Re 4:1-3; see also Ps 96:4-6.
ISAIAH 40:25-26
““But TO WHOM CAN YOU PEOPLE LIKE ME so that I should be made his equal?” says the Holy One. “Raise YOUR eyes high up and see. Who has created these things? It is the One who is bringing forth the army of them even by number, all of whom he calls even by name. Due to the abundance of dynamic energy, he also being vigorous in power, not one [of them] is missing.”As can be noted, these descriptions employ metaphors and similes, likening Jehovah’s appearance to things known to humans—jewels, fire, rainbow. He is even described as though he had certain human features. While some scholars make a considerable issue out of what they call the anthropomorphological expressions found in the Bible—as references to God’s “eyes,” “ears,” “face” (1Pe 3:12), “arm” (Eze 20:33), “right hand” (Ex 15:6), and so forth—it is obvious that such expressions are necessary for the description to be humanly comprehensible. For Jehovah God to set down for us a description of himself in spirit terms would be like supplying advanced algebraic equations to persons having only the most elementary knowledge of mathematics, or trying to explain colors to a person born blind.—Job 37:23, 24.
The so-called anthropomorphisms, therefore, are never to be taken literally, any more than other metaphoric references to God as a “sun,” “shield,” or “Rock.” (Ps 84:11; De 32:4, 31) Jehovah’s sight (Ge 16:13), unlike that of humans, does not depend on light rays, and deeds done in utter darkness can be seen by him. (Ps 139:1, 7-12; Heb 4:13) His vision can encompass all the earth (Pr 15:3), and he needs no special equipment to see the growing embryo within the human womb. (Ps 139:15, 16) Nor does his hearing depend on sound waves in an atmosphere, for he can “hear” expressions though uttered voicelessly in the heart. (Ps 19:14) Man cannot successfully measure even the vast physical universe; yet the physical heavens do not embrace or enclose the place of God’s residence, and much less does some earthly house or temple. (1Ki 8:27; Ps 148:13) Through Moses, Jehovah specifically warned the nation of Israel not to make an image of Him in the form of a male or of any kind of created thing. (De 4:15-18)
EXODUS 33:18-34:27
“At this he said: “Cause me to see, please, your glory.”In the Hebrew Scriptures, the word most often translated “glory” is ka·vohdh′, which basically has the sense of “heaviness.” (Compare Na 2:9, where ka·vohdh′ is rendered “heavy amount,” and 1Sa 4:18, where the related adjective ka·vedh′ is rendered “heavy.”) Thus, glory may refer to anything that makes a person or a thing seem weighty or impressive, such as material wealth (Ps 49:16), position, or reputation. (Ge 45:13) The Greek equivalent of ka·vohdh′ is do′xa, which originally meant “opinion; reputation,” but in the Christian Greek Scriptures came to mean “glory.” Among its senses are repute or “honor” (Lu 14:10), splendor (Lu 2:9; 1Co 15:40), and that which brings honor to its owner or maker (1Co 11:7).
Often the Scriptures mention glory in connection with Jehovah God. As to its meaning in these cases the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, edited by G. Kittel, explains: “If in relation to man [ka·vohdh′] denotes that which makes him impressive and demands recognition, whether in terms of material possessions or striking [dignity or importance], in relation to God it implies that which makes God impressive to man.” (Translated by G. Bromiley, 1971, Vol. II, p. 238) So glory may refer to an impressive evidence of God’s almighty power. Thus, the visible heavenly bodies are “declaring the glory of God.” (Ps 19:1) On Mount Sinai, “Jehovah’s glory” was evidenced by such fearsome manifestations as “a devouring fire.”—Ex 24:16-18; compare 16:7, 10; 40:34.
I just noticed this:
Quote I agree David. I know no man can see the Most High. The question is who was the God of Israel? The Most High or a principality?
Did Jesus put this prinicipality to shame by nailing his curse of a Law to a tree?
Why was Deuteronomy 32:8-9 covered up in the masoretic tradition?
Why do apocryphal books and other segments of christianity reject Jehovah or at least describe him as a lesser elohim.
According to the Bible, Jehovah is definitely the most high. But, if you want to go by apocryphal books which aren't inspired of God, then you may well have some contradiction.
Quote Did Jesus put this prinicipality to shame by nailing his curse of a Law to a tree?
No.Quote Why was Deuteronomy 32:8-9 covered up in the masoretic tradition?
Explain.Quote Why do apocryphal books and other segments of christianity reject Jehovah or at least describe him as a lesser elohim. Even though the Bible says: “The earth belongs to Jehovah,” it also says: “Earth itself has been given into the hand of the wicked one.” (Ex 9:29; Job 9:24) The apostle John stated something similar saying: “We originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.”–1 John 5:19
Shortly after his baptism, Jesus was “tempted by the Devil.” Citing one of the temptations, the Bible says: “The Devil took him along to an unusually high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.” (Matthew 4:1,8) Satan then told Jesus: “I will give you all this authority and the glory of them, because it has been delivered to me, and to whomever I wish I give it. You, therefore, if you do an act of worship before me, it will all be yours.””–Luke 4:6,7
Satan “tempted” Jesus by offering him “all the kingdoms of the world.” Yet, would Satan’s offer have been a real temptation if Satan was not actually the ruler of these kingdoms? And note, Jesus di d not deny tat all these wordly governments were Satan’s, which he would have done if Satan did not have power over them.–Matthew 4:1,8-10
In fact, on another occasion Jesus confirmed that Satan truly is the ruler of the kingdoms of this world. He said: “the ruler of this world will be cast out.” And he added: “the ruler of the world is coming. And he has no hold on me.” And, “the ruler of this world has been judged.”–John 12:31; 14:30; 16:11
Satan is not alone in his rulership. “Stand firm against the machinations of the Devil; because we have a wrestling, not against blood and flesh, but against the governments, against the authorities, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places.”–Ephesians 6:11,12
So from these scriptures, it is clear that someone has been controlling both men and nations. And the Bible clearly identifies him when it speaks of: “The one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth”–Revelation 12:9 (Also see Rev. 13:2 where Satan is depicted as a dragon that gives to the world’s political system “it’s power and its throne and great authority.”)
The Bible even calls Satan “the god of this system of things”2 CORINTHIANS 4:4
“among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.”Today it is “Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to YOU, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.”” (Rev. 12:12) These for the earth won’t last forever because as Jesus said: “The ruler of this world will be cast out.” (John 12:31) Satan’s power is only for a limited period of time and is only by the toleration of Jehovah, who is God Almighty.
Historian Will Durant points out:
“Celsus [second-century opponent of Christianity] himself had sarcastically observed that Christians were ‘split up into ever so many factions, each individual desiring to have his own party.’ About 187 [C.E.] Irenaeus listed twenty varieties of Christianity; about 384 [C.E.] Epiphanius counted eighty.”—The Story of Civilization: Part III—Caesar and Christ.)WHY?
“To you it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the kingdom of God, but for the rest it is in illustrations, in order that, though looking, they may look in vain and, though hearing, they may not get the meaning.” (Luke 8:10)
One of the illustrations he gave them is as follows:
MATTHEW 13:24-30 (c. 41 C.E.)
“The kingdom of the heavens has become like a man that sowed fine seed in his field. While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat, and left. When the blade sprouted and produced fruit, then the weeds appeared also. So the slaves of the householder came up and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow fine seed in your field? How, then, does it come to have weeds?’ He said to them, ‘An enemy, a man, did this.’ They said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go out and collect them?’ He said, ‘No; that by no chance, while collecting the weeds, YOU uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest; and in the harvest season I will tell the reapers, First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up, then go to gathering the wheat into my storehouse.’””
MATTHEW 13:36-39
“Then after dismissing the crowds
he went into the house. And his disciples came to him and said: “Explain to us the illustration of the weeds in the field.” In response he said: “The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man; the field is the world; as for the fine seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one, and the enemy that sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels.”
(See Mat 8:20; 9:6; 10:23 where Jesus identifies himself as the “son of man.”)MATTHEW 7:15-16 (c. 41 C.E.)
““Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to you in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they?”
(These words were put down by Matthew around 41 C.E, but spoken by Jesus several years earlier.MATTHEW 24:11 (c. 41 C.E.)
“And many false prophets will arise and mislead many;”
(After saying that no stone would be left of the temple in Jerusalem, Jesus’ disciples asked him: “When will these things be.” The question also involved them asking for a sign of his presence and the conclusion of the system of things. Jesus gave them a multi-fulfillment sign that included what would occur before the conclusion of Jerusalem’s end. We see that many false prophets would arise and “mislead many.”)ACTS 15:24 (c. 50 C.E.)
“we have heard that some from among us have caused you trouble with speeches, trying to subvert your souls, although we [the governing body] did not give them any instructions,”
(Remarkably, as early as around 50 C.E., there were “some from among” the Christian congregation who were speaking falsely, and “trying to subvert [their] souls.”)GALATIANS 1:6-7 (c. 50-52 C.E.)
“I marvel that you are being so quickly removed from the One who called you with Christ’s undeserved kindness over to another sort of good news. But it is not another; only there are certain ones who are causing you trouble and wanting to pervert the good news about the Christ.”
(“Certain ones” were “wanting to pervert the good news” and Paul was amazed or marveled at how “quickly” this was happening, already back around 50-52 C.E.!)GALATIANS 2:3-4 (c. 50-52 C.E.)
“Nevertheless, not even Titus, who was with me, was compelled to be circumcised, although he was a Greek. But because of the false brothers brought in quietly, who sneaked in to spy upon our freedom which we have in union with Christ Jesus, that they might completely enslave us—”
(Again, mention of “false brothers” that were brought into the congregation, “quietly.”)2 THESSALONIANS 2:3,7,9 (c.51 C.E.)
“Let no one seduce you in any manner, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction. . . .True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work; but only till he who is right now acting as a restraint gets to be out of the way. . . .But the lawless one’s presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents”
(This man of lawlessness was a mystery at the time, but it would only be a mystery until “he who is right now acting as a restraint [the apostles] gets to be out of the way.” When that happened, it would no longer be a mystery or obscure, because it would break forth in full bloom and spread like “gangrene” as another verse puts it. Verse 8 tells us that the lawless one will be done away with and brought to nothing by the manifestation of Jesus’ presence. So the man of lawlessness would exist right up until Christ’s presence. It was “already at work” or beginning to manifest itself at this time.)2 CORINTHIANS 11:3 (c. 55 C.E.)
“I am afraid that somehow, as the serpent seduced Eve by its cunning, your minds [of those Christians in Corinth] might be corrupted away from the sincerity and the chastity that are due the Christ.”2 CORINTHIANS 11:26 (c. 55 C.E.)
“. . . .in dangers among false brothers. . . .”
(False brothers certainly already existed at this time and they were dangerous.)ROMANS 16:17-18 (c. 56 C.E.)
“Now I exhort you, brothers, to keep your eye on those who cause divisions and occasions for stumbling contrary to the teaching that you have learned, and avoid them. For men of that sort are slaves, not of our Lord Christ, but of their own bellies; and by smooth talk and complimentary speech they seduce the hearts of guileless ones.” (See 1 Cor 1:10)ACTS 20:27-30 (c. 56.C.E.)
“for I have not held back from telling you all the counsel of God. Pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed you overseers, to shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own [Son]. I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among you and will not treat the flock with tenderness, and from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.”
(Notice that he was speaking to the “overseers” (Bishops), the ones who had been appointed “to shepharerd the congregation of God.” It was from among these ones themselves that men would rise and speak twisted things “to draw away the disciples after themselves.”) (See Acts 15:24; 2 Pet. 2:1)COLOSSIANS 2:8 (c. 60-61 C.E.)
“Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry you off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ;”
(Although this scripture is not speaking of an apostasy or rebellion from within, it does speak of the subtle influence of philosophy and Greek philosophy was a key factor in the apostasy that followed the death of the apostles. The Greek immortal soul teaching implied a need for various destinations for the soul—heaven, hellfire, purgatory, paradise, Limbo. By manipulating such teachings, it became easy for a priestly class to keep their flocks submissive and in fear of the Hereafter and to extract gifts and donations from them.)1 TIMOTHY 6:20-21 (c. 61-64 C.E.)
“O Timothy, guard what is laid up in trust with you, turning away from the empty speeches that violate what is holy and from the contradictions of the falsely called “knowledge.” For making a show of such [knowledge] some have deviated from the faith.”1 TIMOTHY 4:1-3 (c. 61-64 C.E.)
“However, the inspired utterance says definitely that in later periods of time some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired utterances and teachings of demons, by the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, marked in their conscience as with a branding iron; forbidding to marry, commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be partaken of with thanksgiving by those who have faith and accurately know the truth.”
(See 1 tim 3:2; 1 Cor 9:5; “Cephas” is an Aramaic name given to Peter; see John 1:42. See also Mark 1:29-31, where reference is made to the mother-in-law of Simon, or Peter.)1 TIMOTHY 1:3-7 (c. 61-64 C.E.)
“Just as I encouraged you to stay in Eph́e·sus when I was about to go my way into Mac·e·dóni·a, so I do now, that you might command certain ones not to teach different doctrine, nor to pay attention to false stories. . .. Really the objective of this mandate is love out of a clean heart and out of a good conscience and out of faith without hypocrisy. By deviating from these things certain ones have been turned aside into idle talk, wanting to be teachers of law, but not perceiving either the things they are saying or the things about which they are making strong assertions.”
(So, around 61-64 C.E., “false stories” did exist and were being taught. Some in the Christian congregation were “teach[ing] different doctrine” as early as 61 C.E. More
than that, ones were “making strong assertions” that were wrong and “wanting to be teachers.” As well, they had “deviated” from certain Christian principles.)TITUS 1:5,10,11,13-16 (c. 61-64 C.E.)
“For this reason I left you in Crete, that you might correct the things that were defective and might make appointments of older men in city after city, as I gave you orders. . . .For there are many unruly men, profitless talkers, and deceivers of the mind, especially those men who adhere to the circumcision. It is necessary to shut the mouths of these, as these very men keep on subverting entire households by teaching things they ought not for the sake of dishonest gain. . . . For this very cause keep on reproving them with severity, that they may be healthy in the faith, paying no attention to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn themselves away from the truth. . . . They publicly declare they know God, but they disown him by their works, because they are detestable and disobedient and not approved for good work of any sort.” (See Mat. 15:19)2 PETER 3:13,15-17 (c. 64 C.E.)
“But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell. . . . Furthermore, consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul according to the wisdom given him also wrote you, Paul according to the wisdom given him also wrote you, speaking about these things as he does also in all [his] letters. In them, however, are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unsteady are twisting, as [they do] also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. You, therefore, beloved ones, having this advance knowledge, be on your guard that you may not be led away with them by the error of the law-defying people and fall from your own steadfastness.” (See 2 Tim 4:3,4–“they will accumulate teachers for themsleves to have their ears tickled; and they will turn their ears away from the truth.”)2 PETER 2:1-3 (c. 64 C.E.)
“However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among you. These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects . . . .Furthermore, many will follow their acts of loose conduct, and on account of these the way of the truth will be spoken of abusively. Also, with covetousness they will exploit you with counterfeit words.”
(See 2 Tim. 2:16-18–“their word will spread like gangrene.” Romans 16:17–“keep your eye on those who cause divisions.” 1 Cor 1:10–“there should not be divisions among you.”)
(Peter’s words proved ture. Sects, or divisions were already evident as historian Will Durant points out:
“Celsus [second-century opponent of Christianity] himself had sarcastically observed that Christians were ‘split up into ever so many factions, each individual desiring to have his own party.’ About 187 [C.E.] Irenaeus listed twenty varieties of Christianity; about 384 [C.E.] Epiphanius counted eighty.”—The Story of Civilization: Part III—Caesar and Christ.)2 TIMOTHY 4:3-4 (c. 65 C.E.)
“For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the healthful teaching, but, in accord with their own desires, they will accumulate teachers for themselves to have their ears tickled; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, whereas they will be turned aside to false stories.”JUDE 3-4,10 (c. 65. C.E.)
“Beloved ones, though I was making every effort to write you about the salvation we hold in common, I found it necessary to write you to exhort you to put up a hard fight for the faith that was once for all time delivered to the holy ones. My reason is that certain men have slipped in . . .ungodly men, turning the undeserved kindness of our God into an excuse for loose conduct and proving false to our only Owner and Lord, Jesus Christ. . . .Yet these [men] are speaking abusively of all the things they really do not know.”
(You can feel Jude’s sadness. He truly wanted, no, was making “every effort” to speak of good things. But he “found it necessary” to exhort them to “put up a hard fight for the faith.” His “reason” for this was the “ungodly men” who had “slipped in” to the congregation. These men not only had left behind good Christian conduct, but they were speaking “of all the things they really [did] not know.”)
2 TIMOTHY 2:16-18 (c. 65 C.E.)
“But shun empty speeches that violate what is holy; for they will advance to more and more ungodliness, and their word will spread like gangrene. Hy·me·naéus and Phi·létus are of that number. These very [men] have deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred; and they are subverting the faith of some.” (See 1 Tim. 1:19,20; 2 Tim 3:13)
(Would this apostasy happen slowly? Is gangrene slow? Quite the opposite. And already there were some who were “subverting the faith” of others, teaching false doctrine, in this case “that the resurrection [had] already occurred.” Would things turn around? Paul wrote to Timothy: “They will advance to more and more ungodliness, and their word will spread like gangrene.”)1 JOHN 2:18-19 (c. 98. C.E.)
“Young children, it is the last hour, and, just as you have heard that antichrist is coming, even now there have come to be many antichrists; from which fact we gain the knowledge that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of our sort; for if they had been of our sort, they would have remained with us. But [they went out] that it might be shown up that not all are of our sort.”1 JOHN 4:3 (c. 98 C.E.)
“but every inspired expression that does not confess Jesus does not originate with God. Furthermore, this is the antichrist’s [inspired expression] which YOU have heard was coming, and now it is already in the world.”2 JOHN 7 (c. 98 C.E.)
“For many deceivers have gone forth into the world, persons not confessing Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.”
(Another false teaching, from the foretold false teachers. By this time “many deceivers” were already in “the world.”)I need to sleep now, but on the word “jealousy” as used in the Bible, essentially “jealousy” of Jehovah = zeal.
Please look up that word and notice everywhere it is used. It is not the bad jealousy that we commonly think of.
His jealousy is therefore a pure, clean jealousy and is altogether for the benefit of his creatures, as their devotion brings him—the Creator, Provider, and Giver of all good things—no profit. (Job 41:11; Ps 145:16; Ro 11:35; Jas 1:17; Re 4:11)
The word jealous might as well be “zealous” in a couple of places.
2 CORINTHIANS 11:2
“For I am jealous over YOU with a godly jealousy,Looking through the heb scriptures,whenever the word jealousy is used with reference to a man or nation, it seems negative. When used with reference to Jehovah, it has a completely different feeling.
For example, “I have been jealous FOR jerusalem.” He's not jealous “of” jerusalem. He's jealous “for” it. –zech 1:14
But I have to go.
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