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Hi SOL,
From Jubilees ch 15
“And the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him:
4 'I am God Almighty; approve thyself before me and be thou perfect. And I will make My covenant between Me and thee, and I will multiply thee exceedingly.' And Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, and said:6 'Behold my ordinance is with thee,
And thou shalt be the father of many nations.7 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram,
But thy name from henceforth, even for ever, shall be Abraham.
For the father of many nations have I made thee.Was this not an account of the Most High God of Israel manifesting to Abraham?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 08 2008,13:21) Hi SOL,
From Jubilees ch 15
“And the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him:
4 'I am God Almighty; approve thyself before me and be thou perfect. And I will make My covenant between Me and thee, and I will multiply thee exceedingly.' And Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, and said:6 'Behold my ordinance is with thee,
And thou shalt be the father of many nations.7 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram,
But thy name from henceforth, even for ever, shall be Abraham.
For the father of many nations have I made thee.Was this not an account of the Most High God of Israel manifesting to Abraham?
Sorry wrong book. I am at work. I will get this info to you when I get home tonight.I am reposting the following because I really would like someone to try and explain away the following for me. I am here trying to attack, I really want to know how I can possibly believe Jehovah is the Most High. I want to know how the rest of you can stay sane while wrapping your morality into a pretzel.
Sincerely, does anyone have any good informative responses to help answer this?
All Nick will say is I am deceived and a blasphemer. Anything constructive out there?
Who is YHWH? Is he God Most High?
Lets ask someone who has seen God then to tell us.
1 John 4:12
12 No one has ever seen God. But if we love each other, God lives in us, and his love is brought to full expression in us.
Exodus 33:11
11 The LORD (Jehovah) would speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks with his friend.
What the heck who is this Jehovah then?
Acts 7:38
38He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us.
Oh he was an angel. What kind of angel?
Colossians 2:16-21
16Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. 18Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind, 19and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God.
20If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations— 21 “Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch”An angel that put us into bondage? Wow Yikes!
Christ set us free from this bondage.
Colossians 2:14-15
14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
Then who does Christ say this Jehovah is?
John 8:44
44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Go back and Read Genesis 3 with and open mind and discover for yourself the truth of what is written there. Try not to let the lies of the pulpit blind you from what the text actually says.
It says that Adam and Eve were not created immortal and were prevented from becoming so by the Jehovah gods.
It says that the serpent told the truth and that their eyes did open and they did become like gods knowing good and evil.
It says that the Jehovah gods told the first lie and sentenced man to death.
Jehovah is not God Most High he is a rebellious principality and power.
Deuteronomy 32:8-9
8When the Most High(El Elyon) gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he divided mankind,
he fixed the borders of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God.
9But the LORD’s (Jehovah's) portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted heritage.Jehovah was the tribal deity over Israel. One of the Watchers set over each of the nations. His portion was Israel. Jehovah is not El Elyon. He is under El Elyon.
Open your eyes. Be wise as the serpent! The truth will set you free from bondage to evil principalities and powers.
The Catholic Church lied and forged scriptures to hide that they made Jesus the son of Jehovah. Worse yet they made him a mulitple personality of Jehovah as if he wasn't insane enough already that had to give him a disorder.
Song of Songs 8:6
Set me as a seal upon thine heart, as a seal upon thine arm:
for love is strong as death; jealousy is cruel as the grave:
the coals thereof are coals of fire, which hath a most vehement flame.
Many waters cannot quench love, neither can the floods drown it
Jealousy is as cruel as the grave?
Exodus 34:13
For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, WHOSE NAME IS JEALOUS, is a jealous God: Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a WHORING after their gods.
Is God really Jealous?
1 John 4:8
8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
God is Love? What is Love?
1 Corinthians 13:4-7
4 Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud 5 or rude. It does not demand its own way. It is not irritable, and it keeps no record of being wronged. 6 It does not rejoice about injustice but rejoices whenever the truth wins out. 7 Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance.
God is Love and Love is not Jealous?
This god who's name is Jealous is therefore not God!
Isaiah 45:7
7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
James 1:13
13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Isaiah 45:3
3And I will give thee the treasures of darknessJames 1:17
17Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
Ug, treasures of darkness? No thanks. Are we really talking about the same God here?
Seriously
Hi SOL,
We do not apply the morality we have learned to our God.
We are stupid, ignorant and puny humans.
God is God.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 08 2008,14:25) Hi SOL,
We do not apply the morality we have learned to our God.
We are stupid, ignorant and puny humans.
God is God.
Then you need to eat the fruit from the tree of knowledge and snap out of it. Wake up sleeper.You seriously don't have a better explanation than all of us are idiots so don't bother trying to use reason and instead just bow to Jehovah? What made you choose Jehovah as your God if not some application of reason?
Seriously Nick you don't have any better explanation for the verses I posted?
Hi SOL,
The tree of knowledge of good and evil gave Adam just that knowledge and he could not handle it without the Spirit to teach him.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 08 2008,14:40) Hi SOL,
The tree of knowledge of good and evil gave Adam just that knowledge and he could not handle it without the Spirit to teach him.
I agree.And that spirit is inside you just waiting for you to listen to it.
What is truly real? What is truly good? What is truly love?
All these guestions can be gained through the spirit in you.
Maybe not fully or completely but it will guide us all along THE WAY.
Quote We have many ancient texts that are written in the name of an apostle. Does this make them authentic as well? That is not sound logic. It was written by peter because IT SAYS it was written by peter?
Somebody wrote it. Why would he lie about his name.
Quote Moreover, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and Tertullian all quote the letter, naming Peter as writer. –McClintock and Strong’s Cyclopedia, 1981 reprint, Vol. VIII, page 15. Eusebius tells us that the elders of the church made free use of the letter; there was no question as to its authenticity in his time (c. 260-342 C.E.). Ignatius, Hermas, and Barnabas, of the early second century, all make references to it. –New Bible Dictionary, second edition, 1986, edited by J. D. Douglas, page 918.
No offense, “son of light” but everything you say is basically wrong or at least, unscriptural.
To quote Nick, “You present a mish mash of preformed opinions that you attempt to glorify with scripture IMHO.”
You claim to represent light, but it is not the light of the Bible. Your avatar…sure, you'd say it's because you want to be “wise as serpents” but of course, the image is of the TOOL SATAN USED to deceive Eve with the fruit.
I believe that is essentially what you are. Just as Satan represents himself as an “angel of light” he is nothing of the sort. You defend everything that goes against the Bible.
Please start presenting some facts to at least make it appear as though you represent some kind of reality and not just fantasy.
Quote We have many ancient texts that are written in the name of an apostle. Does this make them authentic as well? Please give only one example.
I suggest, since you base your beliefs on the apocrypha, and somehow consider it reliable, but not the Bible, we should consider it. Start a thread.
The reason somebody would lie about there name would be to give credance to a forgery. Pretty simple.
Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 08 2008,14:13) I am reposting the following because I really would like someone to try and explain away the following for me. I am here trying to attack, I really want to know how I can possibly believe Jehovah is the Most High. I want to know how the rest of you can stay sane while wrapping your morality into a pretzel. Sincerely, does anyone have any good informative responses to help answer this?
All Nick will say is I am deceived and a blasphemer. Anything constructive out there?
Who is YHWH? Is he God Most High?
Lets ask someone who has seen God then to tell us.
1 John 4:12
12 No one has ever seen God. But if we love each other, God lives in us, and his love is brought to full expression in us.
Exodus 33:11
11 The LORD (Jehovah) would speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks with his friend.
What the heck who is this Jehovah then?
Acts 7:38
38He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us.
Oh he was an angel. What kind of angel?
Colossians 2:16-21
16Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. 18Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind, 19and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God.
20If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations— 21 “Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch”An angel that put us into bondage? Wow Yikes!
Christ set us free from this bondage.
Colossians 2:14-15
14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
Then who does Christ say this Jehovah is?
John 8:44
44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Go back and Read Genesis 3 with and open mind and discover for yourself the truth of what is written there. Try not to let the lies of the pulpit blind you from what the text actually says.
It says that Adam and Eve were not created immortal and were prevented from becoming so by the Jehovah gods.
It says that the serpent told the truth and that their eyes did open and they did become like gods knowing good and evil.
It says that the Jehovah gods told the first lie and sentenced man to death.
Jehovah is not God Most High he is a rebellious principality and power.
Deuteronomy 32:8-9
8When the Most High(El Elyon) gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he divided mankind,
he fixed the borders of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God.
9But the LORD’s (Jehovah's) portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted heritage.Jehovah was the tribal deity over Israel. One of the Watchers set over each of the nations. His portion was Israel. Jehovah is not El Elyon. He is under El Elyon.
Open your eyes. Be wise as the serpent! The truth will set you free from bondage to evil principalities and powers.
The Catholic Church lied and forged scriptures to hide that they made Jesus the son of Jehovah. Worse yet they made him a mulitple personality of Jehovah as if he wasn't insane enough already that had to give him a disorder.
Song of Songs 8:6
Set me as a seal upon thine heart, as a seal upon thine arm:
for love is strong as death; jealousy is cruel as the grave:
the coals thereof are coals of fire, which hath a most vehement flame.
Many waters cannot quench love, neither can the floods drown it
Jealousy is as cruel as the grave?
Exodus 34:13
For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, WHOSE NAME IS JEALOUS, is a jealous God: Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a WHORING after their gods.
Is God really Jealous?
1 John 4:8
8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
God is Love? What is Love?
1 Corinthians 13:4-7
4 Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud 5 or rude. It does not demand its own way. It is not irritable, and it keeps no record of being wronged. 6 It does not rejoice about injustice but rejoices whenever the truth wins out. 7 Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance.
God is Love and Love is not Jealous?
This god who's name is Jealous is therefore not God!
Isaiah 45:7
7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
James 1:13
13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Isaiah 45:3
3And I will give thee the treasures of darknessJames 1:17
17Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
Ug, treasures of darkness? No thanks. Are we really talking about the same God here?
Seriously
David,This view is I confess a menagerie of lifted verses. However, complete scriptures exist that are not part of the bible that agree with this view and are not just lifted scriptures.
I am trying to demonstrate that even the corruptions and forgeries within the bible to not completely cover up the truth.
Will you David please try to explain how you can warp your reason in to accepting Jehovah as good. And how you explain my quoted verses.
Evidence for an authorized listing of writings for the Christian Greek Scriptures began piling up as early as 90-100 C.E. And by the end of the second century, there was no question that the canon of the Christian Greek Scriptures had been closed. There are at least 16 outstanding early catalogs of the Christian Greek Scriptures, from the Muratorian Fragment of 170 C.E. to the Third Council of Carthage of 397 C.E. Additionally, manuscripts of this part of the Bible in the original language (Greek) total more than 5,200. No other ancient document is so well supported.
Quote The reason somebody would lie about there name would be to give credance to a forgery. Pretty simple. So you're saying Peter actually existed then.
Quote (david @ Jan. 08 2008,15:49) Evidence for an authorized listing of writings for the Christian Greek Scriptures began piling up as early as 90-100 C.E. And by the end of the second century, there was no question that the canon of the Christian Greek Scriptures had been closed. There are at least 16 outstanding early catalogs of the Christian Greek Scriptures, from the Muratorian Fragment of 170 C.E. to the Third Council of Carthage of 397 C.E. Additionally, manuscripts of this part of the Bible in the original language (Greek) total more than 5,200. No other ancient document is so well supported.
That was only one branch of christianity. Pauline greco/roman.In addition these proto canons you discuss on barely resemble ours.
The Muratorian canon does not resemble ours. ironically it rejects 1 and 2 peter agreeing with our previous discussion. It also includes several books our canon does not.
You are taking the history of ONE branch of christianity and claiming that branch to be true and apostolic. That branch followed the Pauline scism.
The other branches of christianity you lump all together as heretics and ignore anything they have to say.
Not to mention most scholars date the lists later than you are suggesting.
The muratorian as late as the 4th century.
Quote Will you David please try to explain how you can warp your reason in to accepting Jehovah as good. And how you explain my quoted verses. If you could please direct me to the very first place you posted this, I believe I attempted to answer you there. i can't remember what thread that was, but I'd like to find it.
First, on “seeing God,” I know there have been a few threads on that, and so I'm going to just quote this:
Has Anyone Seen God?
THE renowned patriarch Abraham, who lived more than 1,900 years before the birth of Jesus Christ, was so warmly viewed by our Creator that he was called “God’s friend.” (James 2:23, Byington) If anyone would be given the privilege of seeing God, surely Abraham would be that person. Well, on a certain occasion, three visitors came to him with a divine message. Abraham addressed one of them as Jehovah. Does this mean that Abraham actually saw God?
This account is found at Genesis 18:1-3. There we read: “Jehovah appeared to him among the big trees of Mamre, while he was sitting at the entrance of the tent about the heat of the day. When he raised his eyes, then he looked and there three men were standing some distance from him. When he caught sight of them he began running to meet them from the entrance of the tent and proceeded to bow down to the earth. Then he said: ‘Jehovah, if, now, I have found favor in your eyes, please do not pass by your servant.’”
Later, when Abraham and his three visitors were viewing Sodom from an elevated location, two left to visit the city. Verse 22 then says: “But as for Jehovah, he was still standing before Abraham.” It would appear from this that God was present with Abraham in a materialized fleshly body. This is what some persons contend who believe that God and Jesus Christ are one and the same person.
Regarding Genesis 18:3, Bible scholar Melancthon W. Jacobus wrote: “Here God appears for the first time on record as man among men, to show the reality of His Being, and of His affinity with men, and by this typical act to assure the patriarch of the Divine communion and fellowship.” Those having this point of view could conclude that Abraham actually saw Jehovah with his physical eyes and that persons who saw Jesus Christ also saw God. But is this conclusion in harmony with the Bible?
What Jesus Said
Instead of announcing that he was God in the flesh, Jesus Christ said: “I am God’s Son.” (John 10:36) As Jehovah God’s perfect Representative, Jesus also said: “I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative; just as I hear, I judge; and the judgment that I render is righteous, because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him that sent me.” (John 5:30) When Jesus was on the torture stake, he prayed to the great Creator in the heavens, addressing him as “My God, my God.” (Matthew 27:46) After his resurrection, Jesus told Mary Magdalene: “I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.” (John 20:1, 17) Since Jesus Christ was not God incarnate, no one who saw Jesus could say that he had thus seen God.
John, the apostle whom Jesus especially loved, confirmed the fact that the apostles were not seeing God when they looked at Jesus. Under inspiration John said: “No man has seen God at any time.” (John 1:18) Whom, then, did Abraham see? The experience of Moses helps us to find the answer.
How Moses Saw God
Moses once expressed the desire to see God. At Exodus 33:18-20, we read: “‘Cause me [Moses] to see, please, your glory.’ But he [God] said: ‘I myself shall cause all my goodness to pass before your face, and I will declare the name of Jehovah before you; and I will favor the one whom I may favor, and I will show mercy to the one to whom I may show mercy.’ And he added: ‘You are not able to see my face, because no man may see me and yet live.’”
What God permitted Moses to see was His passing glory. Verses 21-23 state: “And Jehovah said further: ‘Here is a place with me, and you must station yourself upon the rock. And it has to occur that while my glory is passing by I must place you in a hole in the rock, and I must put my palm over you as a screen until I have passed by. After that I must take my palm away, and you will indeed see my back. But my face may not be seen.’”
In harmony with what Jehovah told Moses and what the apostle John said, Moses saw no materialization or material form of God. All that Moses saw was the afterglow of the divine presence passing by. Even then he had to be divinely protected. Obviously, it was not God himself that Moses saw.
When Moses spoke to God “face to face,” as stated at Exodus 33:11, he was not in visual contact with Jehovah. This expression indicates the manner in which Moses communicated with God, not what he saw. Speaking with God “face to face” indicates a two-way conversation. Similarly, an individual can carry on a two-way conversation by telephone without seeing the other person.
When Moses talked with God and received instructions from him, the communication was not through visions, as was often the case with other prophets. This is noted at Numbers 12:6-8, where we read: “He went on to say: ‘Hear my words, please. If there came to be a prophet of yours for Jehovah, it would be in a vision I would make myself known to him. In a dream I would speak to him. Not so my servant Moses! He is being entrusted with all my house. Mouth to mouth I speak to him, thus showing him, and not by riddles; and the appearance of Jehovah is what he beholds.’” In what sense did Moses behold “the appearance of Jehovah”?
Moses beheld “the appearance of Jehovah” when he, Aaron, and certain other men were on Mount Sinai. At Exodus 24:10, it is written: “They got to see the God of Israel. And under his feet there was what seemed like a work of sapphire flagstones and like the very heavens for purity.” But how did Moses and the other men get to “see the God of Israel,” since God had told him, “No man may see me and yet live”? Verse 11 explains, for it says: “He did not put out his hand against the distinguished men of the sons of Israel, but they got a vision of the true God and ate and drank.” So the appearance of God that Moses and the others saw was by means of a vision.
Angelic Representatives
It has not been necessary for the great Creator of the universe to come down from his lofty place in the heavens in order to deliver messages to certain humans. Aside from the three recorded instances when God’s own voice was heard while his Son was on the earth, Jehovah has always used angels to transmit His messages. (Matthew 3:17; 17:5; John 12:28) Even the Law that God gave to the nation of Israel at Mount Sinai was transmitted by angels, although Moses was represented as talking directly with God himself. Regarding this, the apostle Paul wrote: “Why, then, the Law? It was added to make transgressions manifest, until the seed should arrive to whom the promise had been made; and it was transmitted through angels by the hand of a mediator.”—Galatians 3:19.
That Moses actually spoke with an angel who was personally representing God is also indicated at Acts 7:38, which states: “This is he that came to be among the congregation in the wilderness with the angel that spoke to him on Mount Sinai and with our forefathers.” That angel was the personal spokesman for Jehovah God, the Creator, and so he spoke to Moses as if God himself were speaking.
The angel who delivered God’s message to Moses at the burning thornbush was also a spokesman. He is identified as Jehovah’s angel at Exodus 3:2, where we are told: “Jehovah’s angel appeared to him in a flame of fire in the midst of a thornbush.” V
erse 4 says: “When Jehovah saw that he turned aside to inspect, God at once called to him out of the midst of the thornbush.” In verse 6, this angelic spokesman for God said: “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” So when speaking with this personal representative of God, Moses spoke as if he were speaking to Jehovah himself.—Exodus 4:10.In the 6th chapter of Judges, we find another example of a man speaking to God through an angelic representative. Verse 11 identifies the message bearer as “Jehovah’s angel.” There we read: “Later Jehovah’s angel came and sat under the big tree that was in Ophrah, which belonged to Joash the Abiezrite, while Gideon his son was beating out wheat in the winepress so as to get it quickly out of the sight of Midian.” This messenger, “Jehovah’s angel,” is thereafter represented as if he were Jehovah God himself. In verses 14 and 15, we read: “Upon that Jehovah faced [Gideon] and said: ‘Go in this power of yours, and you will certainly save Israel out of Midian’s palm. Do I not send you?’ In turn he said to him: ‘Excuse me, Jehovah. With what shall I save Israel?’” So the materialized angel seen by Gideon and with whom he spoke is represented in the Biblical account as if he were God himself. In verse 22, Gideon says: “I have seen Jehovah’s angel face to face!” The angel spoke precisely what God told him to speak. Therefore, Gideon spoke with God through this angelic spokesman.
Consider, too, the case of Manoah and his wife, the parents of Samson. This account also speaks of the angelic messenger as “Jehovah’s angel” and “the angel of the true God.” (Judges 13:2-18) In verse 22, Manoah says to his wife: “We shall positively die, because it is God that we have seen.” Although he did not actually see Jehovah God, Manoah felt that way because he had seen the materialized personal spokesman for God.
“No Man Has Seen God”
Now it is possible to understand why Abraham addressed the materialized angelic spokesman of God as if he were talking to Jehovah God himself. Since this angel spoke precisely what God wanted to have said to Abraham and was there personally representing Him, the Biblical record could say that “Jehovah appeared to him.”—Genesis 18:1.
Remember that an angelic spokesman for God could transmit His messages just as precisely as a telephone or a radio can transmit our words to another person. Hence, it can be understood how Abraham, Moses, Manoah, and others could speak with a materialized angel as if they were talking to God. While such individuals were able to see these angels and the glory of Jehovah reflected by them, they were not able to see God. Therefore, this in no way contradicts the apostle John’s statement: “No man has seen God at any time.” (John 1:18) What these men saw were angelic representatives and not God himself.
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