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Hi mm,
Scripture is true though every man be proved a liar.
If you believe that “appear” means ” is with” then God has been seen in
Gen 12.7,17.1,18.1,26.2,26.24, 35.9,Num16.19,Dt 31.15, 2Ch1.7,1Kn 3.5,1Kn9.2,2Ch 7.12 etc etcBut if you look at Mt 1.20
” an angel of the Lord APPEARED TO HIM IN A DREAM..”or Dan 8.1″ In the third year or the reign of Belshazzar a vision APPEARED to me..”
The word “appear” can relate to dreams and visions too. And does in the case you mention.
Quote (Guest @ Feb. 26 2005,01:39) Quote Exodus 6
2 God also said to Moses, “I am the LORD . 3 I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as God Almighty, but by my name the LORD I did not make myself known to them.In these verses God says that he appeared to the some of the patriachs. If you read about these appearances you will see that He indeed did do this, and not in a vision.
Quote Jn 1:18
No one has seen GodThis verse says that no-one has seen God. No-one.
God has been seen.
God has not been seen.Which one is true.
I cannot be clearer than this.
MM,I understand your point. It was one of the reasons I needed clarification with who YHWH is.
I think we must rest on the final word of Christ that says no man has seen God, and conclude that he appeared in other ways that still left him unseen! An example is when Moses asked to see him. Exodus 33.
Ex 33:17 So the Lord said to Moses, “I will also do this thing that you have spoken; for you have found grace in My sight, and I know you by name.”
18 And he said, “Please, show me Your glory.”
19 Then He said, “I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.” 20 But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.” 21 And the Lord said, “Here is a place by Me, and you shall stand on the rock. 22 So it shall be, while My glory passes by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock, and will cover you with My hand while I pass by. 23 Then I will take away My hand, and you shall see My back; but My face shall not be seen.”Sigh.
Can someone else help me?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 26 2005,02:12) Hi mm,
Scripture is true though every man be proved a liar.
If you believe that “appear” means ” is with” then God has been seen in
Gen 12.7,17.1,18.1,26.2,26.24, 35.9,Num16.19,Dt 31.15, 2Ch1.7,1Kn 3.5,1Kn9.2,2Ch 7.12 etc etcBut if you look at Mt 1.20
” an angel of the Lord APPEARED TO HIM IN A DREAM..”or Dan 8.1″ In the third year or the reign of Belshazzar a vision APPEARED to me..”
The word “appear” can relate to dreams and visions too. And does in the case you mention.
My last response was in response to Nicks posts, I hadnt seen yours Cubes.Yes OK cubes, but if you read Gen 18 you will se that God himself actually stops by for lunch and has a lengthy negotiation with Abraham over how many righteous men it would take to prevent the destruction of Sodom. Look at Gen 3 and you will see God walked in the Garden and spoke of Adam/Even face to face.
Given the overt nature of these OT appearances of God I tend to think that the Jn 1:18 verse is misunderstood and needs more examination.Hi MM,
The scripture in Jn 1.18 is true for another reason. It has two other scriptures as witnesses-Jn 6.46 and 1Jn 4.12.-and two witnesses prove a fact[2Cor 13.1]
If there is an apparent conflict the lack is always found in us.I cannot believe personally that anyone could begin to believe that the creator of the vast universe could be expected to be fully manifest and visible on our tiny planet anyway. He is Spirit.
So God is limited to His spiritual form? I think God could manifest Himself in any form he liked.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 26 2005,03:19) Hi MM,
The scripture in Jn 1.18 is true for another reason. It has two other scriptures as witnesses-Jn 6.46 and 1Jn 4.12.-and two witnesses prove a fact[2Cor 13.1]
Nick,
So a fact has to be written in two or more places in the Bible to be authenticated? Show me scripture to support this.BTW, witnesses = People
Quote (Guest @ Feb. 26 2005,03:11) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 26 2005,02:12) Hi mm,
Scripture is true though every man be proved a liar.
If you believe that “appear” means ” is with” then God has been seen in
Gen 12.7,17.1,18.1,26.2,26.24, 35.9,Num16.19,Dt 31.15, 2Ch1.7,1Kn 3.5,1Kn9.2,2Ch 7.12 etc etcBut if you look at Mt 1.20
” an angel of the Lord APPEARED TO HIM IN A DREAM..”or Dan 8.1″ In the third year or the reign of Belshazzar a vision APPEARED to me..”
The word “appear” can relate to dreams and visions too. And does in the case you mention.
My last response was in response to Nicks posts, I hadnt seen yours Cubes.
MM,I hope to look over Gen 17 & 18 and get back to you. In Genesis 17, when the LORD appeared to Abram, he fell prostrate…, as did Solomon in 2 Chr 7 when God appeared in the 1st Temple. Just a thought.
Yes Cubes but that was after God had already introduced Himself.
Genesis 17
1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, “I am God Almighty [a] ; walk before me and be blameless. 2 I will confirm my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers.”
3 Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, 4 “As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nationsHi MM,
All scripture is true but God reinforces important truth. That is why there are three gospels that describe the life of Jesus with another that shows deeper aspects of his nature as well as reinforcing some of the events in the other three.God wants things to be simple and provable and He wants us to check everthing out. It also reduces the influence of mistranslation or bias and shows the work of the Holy Spirit among men by the independant repetition of fact.
Some versions add detail to help us look deeper and he also gives us all the OT and the letters to give further detail and practical applications to the raw messages given by Yeshua in the gospels.
So looking at 2 Cor13.1
” ..Every fact is to be confirmed by the testimony of two or three witnesses” It say nothing about people here but rather fact. Certainly in the original application in the OT it had to do with the workings of courts.But Yeshua used it in another context in Jn 8.17 applying it to proving his own ministry by the witness of the Father.
Again it was used in a different context in Mt 18.16 by Yeshua to establish the FACTS of what is said to sort out a sin problem with a brother.
Look at scriptures that do not have witnesses such as Paul's view on the length of a woman's hair. Is it really important to God ?
So is it appropriate to use it with Scripture itself AS A PRINCIPLE?
What do others think?
Exodus 6
2 God also said to Moses, “I am YHWH. 3 I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as El Shaddai, but by my name YHWH I did not make myself known to them.You will find that if you read the old testatment, anyone who saw or spoke to an Angel says that they have seen God when the bible specifically says they spoke to an angel. eg. Hagar and Ishmael Genesis 16, please read the whole chapter (very short). You can see that at:
verse 7 “The angel of YHWH found Hagar near a spring in the desert… “
then at verse 9 it says “Then the angel of YHWH told her…”
and Verse 10 says “Then the Angel of YHWH said to her, “I will multiply your descendants exceedingly, so that they shall not be counted for multitude.”
and Verse 11 also says – And the Angel of YHWH said to her: “Behold, you are with child, And you shall bear a son. You shall call his name Ishmael, Because YHWH has heard your affliction.”
Yet when you get to Verse 13 you will see that things have changed
She gave this name to YHWH who spoke to her: “You are the God who sees me,” for she said, “ I have now seen the One who sees me.”
So it seems that when angels appear carrying Gods message they are looked upon as being God himself.
Many other passages reflect this. God is said to have been in the pillar of fire and smoke yet this is also said to be an angel. So, those that say they have seen God have seen his messengers.
Quote (Ramblinrose @ Feb. 26 2005,08:57) Exodus 6
2 God also said to Moses, “I am YHWH. 3 I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as El Shaddai, but by my name YHWH I did not make myself known to them.You will find that if you read the old testatment, anyone who saw or spoke to an Angel says that they have seen God when the bible specifically says they spoke to an angel. eg. Hagar and Ishmael Genesis 16, please read the whole chapter (very short). You can see that at:
verse 7 “The angel of YHWH found Hagar near a spring in the desert… “
then at verse 9 it says “Then the angel of YHWH told her…”
and Verse 10 says “Then the Angel of YHWH said to her, “I will multiply your descendants exceedingly, so that they shall not be counted for multitude.”
and Verse 11 also says – And the Angel of YHWH said to her: “Behold, you are with child, And you shall bear a son. You shall call his name Ishmael, Because YHWH has heard your affliction.”
Yet when you get to Verse 13 you will see that things have changed
She gave this name to YHWH who spoke to her: “You are the God who sees me,” for she said, “ I have now seen the One who sees me.”
So it seems that when angels appear carrying Gods message they are looked upon as being God himself.
Many other passages reflect this. God is said to have been in the pillar of fire and smoke yet this is also said to be an angel. So, those that say they have seen God have seen his messengers.
I agree, RR. Likewise when Jacob said he has seen God's face after he wrestled with a “man.” Elohyim is the word, but in English (KJV), it simply states “God.”Quote (Guest @ Feb. 26 2005,15:52) Hang on t8, none of these scriptures say that the Father and Sons have different names.
All I did was quote some scriptures to get this discussion started and somehow you find fault even with that.Regarding seeing God, you will find that many of the verses where is says someone saw God, they actually saw a representitive of God. E.g. When God appeared to Moses, it was an actual Angel that appeared to him.
Exodus 3:2
There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up.Othertimes it doesn't mention a representitive, but that doesn't exclude a representitive.
You know MM, if your theology cannot make any 2 scriptures agree or if your theology shows contradiction in scripture, then maybe it is time to change your theology. Have you thought about this?
Jesus himself taught clearly that no one can see God (YHWH), so why do you not follow Jesus?
YHWH has a son and this is the truth that many religions and even so called Christians seem to want to distort or destroy. But I cannot see what benefit there is in trying to undo this truth? What could anyone profit from doing this? It's not as if there is a cash reward for doing it.
Hi MM,
If you read Genesis carefully the voice of God is heard and his footsteps heard but it does not say God is seen.The Lord God “appeared” to Abram in Gen 17 and 18.
As you say God can assume any form.
God is spiritNo one can see God in reality then, as no one can see spirit.
An “appearance” seen then is to see a manifestation of God but not to see the form of God.
Does this help?
PS
When God dwelled with his chosen people was He still in heaven or only on earth?Num 35.34″ You shall not defile the land in which you live,in the midst of which I dwell;for I the Lord am dwelling in the midst of the sons of Israel”
God is not limited by His creation.
To MM,
Quote (Guest @ Feb. 26 2005,22:23) So God is limited to His spiritual form? I think God could manifest Himself in any form he liked.
The eternal God cannot be contained in anything. He can dwell inside someone and his creation, but he cannot be contained. Surely God is greater than anything he has created and how can an infinite God be contained in a finite body? God is Spirit.As far as I know, God doesn't have a wardrobe that contains human and angelic suits. It's not like he puts on a body and says “Hi guys, it's me, you know … God”. But he does dwell inside his children and in his creation as long as it is not touched by sin.
Those who have seen God have seen his glory or the object or person that he has chosen to mainfest himself in. We see this in the Book of Revelation for example where the Revelation originated in God, but was sent to Christ who sent it to the angel to John.
Jesus was very clear, no man can see God and he was fully aware that they could see him. I believe Christ's words, do you?
The next verse explains your dilema. If you read it carefully the answer is here:
2 Corinthians 5:19
that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.This is saying that God was IN Christ (Yeshua the son of God). It's not saying that God was Christ, that God became Christ or that God transformed himself into Christ.
Those who do not acknowledge the Son do not have the Father.
Yes Ramblinrose ,
You are right about the angels being confused with God-that is not infrequent in the Old Testament. I did not know about the smoke or pillar of fire connection with angels . Have you got references on this?Exodus 13:21 And YHWH went before them by day in a pillar of cloud to lead the way, and by night in a pillar of fire to give them light, so as to go by day and night.
Exodus 14:19 And the Angel of God, who went before the camp of Israel, moved and went behind them; and the pillar of cloud went from before them and stood behind them.
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