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Your welcome dear friend, there are other scriptures, that prove this too, just start looking in the N.T.where Messiah quoted from the Old scriptures, and of the Prophets.
Very good to find some people that are really interested in truth of scriptures.
Yah bless,
Eliyah C.
I meant that you are a few that are really interested in discovering the real truth of the scriptures, for there are not many on the net that are really truth seekers like the Bereans in ( Acts).
Compliment from
Eliyah C.
Do you mean my name?
My real name is ( Elijah=English) and ( Eliyah=short from English to Hebrew)
The name means “” My El and self existant one is YHWH=YAH””.Is that what you wanted to know?
Thanks,
Eliyah C.
Well Elijah, I'll be calling you Elijah, since I speak English, much like I use the names Jehovah and Jesus rather than Yahweh and Yeshua (or Yehoshua).
QUESTION:
I was wondering if you could summarize what you've just said in one or two sentences. If what you said is true, than it should be easily explainable with just a scripture or two. I really don't have time right now to wade through the articles you've copied to this forum.
Please give just a brief statement explaining what you said. If someone disagrees with something you said, they'll mention it and you can explain in detail.Thanks.
David
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 26 2005,22:10) Hi liljon,
If Jesus is God then who is his God?
Jn 20 17
” Jesus said to her…. 'I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God'”
John 20:28 says so. Jesus had a God because he became manQuote (liljon @ Aug. 29 2005,13:13) John 20:28 says so. Jesus had a God because he became man
Hi liljon,The bible says that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He humbled himself to become one of us but did not change or stop being himself, else what is the point? And it is he, the very same pre, intra, post who is Lord.
Your response is not validated in the Bible. Please check again. You are reading into scripture in spite of all evidence to the contrary.
What is your evidence that Jesus did not have a God prior?
As pertaining to his Mighty God (hood), Is 9:6, a child is born, a son is GIVEN…and his name shall be….. Mighty God….
And we know that God his God has anointed him, that YHWH his Lord told him to sit at his right hand, that he came to redeem us and preach the Kingdom message to us that God gave him to preach. To say other than he says is to suggest that he wasn't preaching the truth. Our salvation depends on believing in him—and that includes his message, unadulterated.I know this is not your intention to suggest Jesus did not tell the whole truth, but the Trinity Doctrine suggests that. And it seems to always have an excuse to bypass the truth. Please reconsider.
There is not one verse that says he had a God prior. Jesus is Eternal and he existed with the Father always. John 1:1, 8:58
“Jesus…existed with the Father always. John 1:1, 8:58”
As for John 8:58, yes, of course Jesus existed before Abraham.Let's look at John 1:1
“In the Beginning the Word was with God.” The beginning of what? God didn't have a beginning did he? He is the King of Eternity. So, the beginning of what? Look at the first verse of the Bible. “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.” The beginning of what? Creation. The next verse in John 1 speaks of “all things coming into existence.” Both accounts are talking about creation. And since it was through Jesus that Jehovah created everything, yes, Jesus was with God in the beginning. And perhaps quite a bit before. But he didn't “exist with the Father always.”Col. 1:15, 16, RS: “He [Jesus Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation; for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth.” In what sense is Jesus Christ “the first-born of all creation”?
(1) Trinitarians say that “first-born” here means prime, most excellent, most distinguished; thus Christ would be understood to be, not part of creation, but the most distinguished in relation to those who were created. If that is so, and if the Trinity doctrine is true, why are the Father and the holy spirit not also said to be the firstborn of all creation? But the Bible applies this expression only to the Son. According to the customary meaning of “firstborn,” it indicates that Jesus is the eldest in Jehovah’s family of sons.
(2) Before Colossians 1:15, the expression “the firstborn of” occurs upwards of 30 times in the Bible, and in each instance that it is applied to living creatures the same meaning applies—the firstborn is part of the group. “The firstborn of Israel” is one of the sons of Israel; “the firstborn of Pharaoh” is one of Pharaoh’s family; “the firstborn of beast” are themselves animals. What, then, causes some to ascribe a different meaning to it at Colossians 1:15? Is it Bible usage or is it a belief to which they already hold and for which they seek proof?
(3) Does Colossians 1:16, 17 (RS) exclude Jesus from having been created, when it says “in him all things were created . . . all things were created through him and for him”? The Greek word here rendered “all things” is pan´ta, an inflected form of pas. At Luke 13:2, RS renders this “all . . . other”; JB reads “any other”; NE says “anyone else.” (See also Luke 21:29 in NE and Philippians 2:21 in JB.) In harmony with everything else that the Bible says regarding the Son, NW assigns the same meaning to pan´ta at Colossians 1:16, 17 so that it reads, in part, “by means of him all other things were created . . . All other things have been created through him and for him.” Thus he is shown to be a created being, part of the creation produced by God.
Rev. 1:1; 3:14, RS: “The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him . . . ‘And to the angel of the church in La-odicea write: “The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning [Greek, ar·khe´] of God’s creation.”’” (KJ, Dy, CC, and NW, as well as others, read similarly.) Is that rendering correct? Some take the view that what is meant is that the Son was ‘the beginner of God’s creation,’ that he was its ‘ultimate source.’ But Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon lists “beginning” as its first meaning of ar·khe´. (Oxford, 1968, p. 252) The logical conclusion is that the one being quoted at Revelation 3:14 is a creation, the first of God’s creations, that he had a beginning. Compare Proverbs 8:22, where, as many Bible commentators agree, the Son is referred to as wisdom personified. According to RS, NE, and JB, the one there speaking is said to be “created.”)
Prophetically, with reference to the Messiah, Micah 5:2 (KJ) says his “goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.” Dy reads: “his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity.” Does that make him the same as God? It is noteworthy that, instead of saying “days of eternity,” RS renders the Hebrew as “ancient days”; JB, “days of old”; NW, “days of time indefinite.” Viewed in the light of Revelation 3:14, discussed above, Micah 5:2 does not prove that Jesus was without a beginning.
I just felt like adding this scripture for no reason:
James remarked during a conference of the elders at Jerusalem:
“Symeon has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name. And with this the words of the Prophets agree.” (Acts 15:14, 15) T
Liljon, no, there is no verse that I can think of right now except the prophetic ones such as Is 53 and others, even Deut 18:15f where Jesus is prophesied of, etc and which do indicate him in relationship to God as having a God.
When Stephen spoke of him in his final address, yes, Jesus is Lord sitted at the right hand of God, but stephen did not preach him to be equal as God but rather as a servant of God more to be compared with Moses though having greater glory than Moses. As Jesus said somewhere of himself, “a greater than solomon is here… and a greater than Jonah…” Christ is therefore compared with Moses than with God and found to be greater than the prophets. But there is no comparison of him with God as God is God and Jesus is his son, and any comparisons are in that light: e.g. he has loved righteousness and hated iniquity therefore God has anointed him above his FELLOWS, which ties in to what David has posted. I cannot say whether or not Jesus is created, but he has Fellows and was singled out and glorified because he has an excellent spirit which is pleasing to God according to Heb 1:6f. This scripture could not have been referring to his (half) siblings or the disciples or the leadership of Israel. So the question is who were his fellows? Does anybody wish to talk about that? The bible says that he is made Lord over all others, which is consistent with Hebrews 1:6.
So whether or not begotten means created, we know that at sometime, God begat him and made him his son.
But that aside, he speaks of having a God so it is far more true and logical that he has told us what is, than what is not. And you don't beget yourself and call yourself your son! So yet another breakdown in the trinity doctrine.
David raises some good points about the application of being a firstborn and why the Father is not thus referred.
Quote (liljon @ Aug. 30 2005,13:10) There is not one verse that says he had a God prior. Jesus is Eternal and he existed with the Father always. John 1:1, 8:58
It still does not imply a trinity. Two persons are spoken of, and one is always shown to be the God of the other.John 1:1 says in the beginning was the word. The word was already in existence not created.
John 1:3 refutes any speculation that he wasCompare John 8:58 with LXX reading of Psalm 90:2. Christ is Eternal
Gen 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.The “beginning” of creation, right? Jehovah, the God of the Bible, does not have a beginning, does he. He was around, eons before this “beginning” we're talking about. eons of eons. A google plex times inifinity. A really really long time. This “beginning” is therefore a really really really long time after Jehovah existed.
At John 1:1
In the beginning the Word was…The beginning of what?
Jehovah did not have a beginning, as PS 90:2 says.
That is what PS 90:2 says, right, or am I missing something?John 8:58, however, simply says that Jesus existed before Abraham. Yes, of course he did. All of spirit creation did as well, so? Adam also did, so did many many others. I fail to see what your point is.
REVELATION 3:14
““And to the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ce´a write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the BEGINNING of the creation by God,
This does refer to Jesus.John 1:3. I forgot.
All things came into existence through him.JOHN 1:10
“He was in the world, and the world came into existence through him, but the world did not know him.”1 CORINTHIANS 8:6
“there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.”COLOSSIANS 1:16
“because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him.”HEBREWS 1:2
“has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things.”Notice in particular that last scripture.
If we look at all the scriptures and don't ignore any, it seems that Jehovah God existed for ever, from time indefinite to time indefinite.
The Father, Jehovah created his Son, Jesus, hence, we call the Father and Son. Makes sence, doesn't it. Otherwise, we'd call them twins.
But that's not how it is.
Then, Jehovah used his son to create all things, much like any king would use others to build. This is why it can be said that God is the creator and also be said that things were created through Jesus. It's not really that hard to understand.A note on Colossians 1:16,17
Does Colossians 1:16, 17 (RS) exclude Jesus from having been created, when it says “in him all things were created . . . all things were created through him and for him”? The Greek word here rendered “all things” is pan´ta, an inflected form of pas. At Luke 13:2, RS renders this “all . . . other”; JB reads “any other”; NE says “anyone else.” (See also Luke 21:29 in NE and Philippians 2:21 in JB.) In harmony with everything else that the Bible says regarding the Son, NW assigns the same meaning to pan´ta at Colossians 1:16, 17 so that it reads, in part, “by means of him all other things were created . . . All other things have been created through him and for him.” Thus he is shown to be a created being, part of the creation produced by God.Sorry, Liljon, I forgot some translations have that “I Am” thing at John 8:58, as though that were a title, and that's what you were referring to.
John 8:58:
RS reads: “Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am [Greek, e·go´ ei·mi´].’” (NE, KJ, TEV, JB, NAB all read “I am,” some even using capital letters to convey the idea of a title. Thus they endeavor to connect the expression with Exodus 3:14, where, according to their rendering, God refers to himself by the title “I Am.”) However, in NW the latter part of John 8:58 reads: “Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.” (The same idea is conveyed by the wording in AT, Mo, CBW, and SE.)WHICH RENDERING AGREES WITH THE CONTEXT? The question of the Jews (verse 57) to which Jesus was replying had to do with age, not identity. Jesus’ reply logically dealt with his age, the length of his existence. Interestingly, no effort is ever made to apply e·go´ ei·mi´ as a title to the holy spirit.
Says A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research, by A. T. Robertson: “The verb [ei·mi´] . . . Sometimes it does express existence as a predicate like any other verb, as in [e·go´ ei·mi´] (Jo. 8:58).”—Nashville, Tenn.; 1934, p. 394.
King James Version at Exodus 3:14 states: “God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM”?
At Exodus 3:14 (KJ) the phrase “I AM” is used as a title for God to indicate that he really existed and would do what he promised. The Pentateuch and Haftorahs, edited by Dr. J. H. Hertz, says of the phrase: “To the Israelites in bondage, the meaning would be, ‘Although He has not yet displayed His power towards you, He will do so; He is eternal and will certainly redeem you.’ Most moderns follow Rashi [a French Bible and Talmud commentator] in rendering [Exodus 3:14] ‘I will be what I will be.’”The expression at John 8:58 is quite different from the one used at Exodus 3:14. Jesus did not use it as a name or a title but as a means of explaining his prehuman existence. Hence, note how some other Bible versions render John 8:58:
1869: “From before Abraham was, I have been.” The New Testament, by G. R. Noyes.
1935: “I existed before Abraham was born!” The Bible—An American Translation, by J. M. P. Smith and E. J. Goodspeed.
1965: “Before Abraham was born, I was already the one that I am.” Das Neue Testament, by Jörg Zink.
1981: “I was alive before Abraham was born!” The Simple English Bible.
1984: “Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.” New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures.
Thus, the real thought of the Greek used here is that God’s created “firstborn,” Jesus, had existed long before Abraham was born.—Colossians 1:15; Proverbs 8:22, 23, 30; Revelation 3:14.
Again, the context shows this to be the correct understanding. This time the Jews wanted to stone Jesus for claiming to “have seen Abraham” although, as they said, he was not yet 50 years old. (Verse 57) Jesus’ natural response was to tell the truth about his age. So he naturally told them that he “was alive before Abraham was born!”—The Simple English Bible.
Theological grammar books acknowledge that where an expression of past time appears in the sentence, the present tense verb can sometimes be translated as if it has begun in past time and continues up to the present. (See References below) This is also true in French and it is true in Latin. Hence, if this verse were tanslated as: “I have been” instead of “I am,” it is translating the Greek correctly. (John 8:58)
See:
A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research, by A. T. Robertson, 1934, pages 879-80; A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, by H. E. Dana, 1957, page 183
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