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That is to say for the most part the Bible is in agreement with itself but in some cases there are just things that go against itself. It is clear to see that YHWH God is the only God to be worshipped. Yet Jesus Christ is the only begotton God of God and is also worshipped. What is the deal? Well that is very simple and the answer must be he is God himself. But God only wants worship for himself and lets his creation be worshipped to. This is counterdiction – God has been seen and not been seen at any time – This is counterdiction.
Now it could be that as we are part of the body of Christ and since Christ is worshipped as God himself then this is what is meant by we are worshipped as well. Since we make up his body.
With that being said it still does not account for why Jesus is worshipped. Oh sure Jesus could be part of God and we be part of Jesus as his body and thus when God is worshipped – Jesus is worshipped and we are worshipped… But the arguements against me is that Jesus is 'another God' and we know that 'any other God' should not be worshipped according to God. God would not say one thing like that and then allow this other God to be worshipped and confuse the likes of men with his Word.
But now you understand why I don't believe in the full Word of God?
God said to worship only him.
Jesus said to worship only God.
Then angels worship Jesus who is God so that does not counterdict.
Then Jesus says that God says that men will worship men and that surely does counterdict.Such a verse actually goes against the whole Christian community and not just my stand or Nick's stand on who Jesus is! Does not matter if you believe in the Trinity or not – This verse goes against both!
Quote (WhiteMateria @ July 11 2005,17:24) Ah but God said not to worship any other god. If Nick says Jesus is also a God himself then this would be counterdiction. Since the Church of so and so is not God we find this as not going against God's word and yet it is so counterdicting everything God establishes in his word. It is things like these that allow me to look at the Bible with doubt.
WM,When God commands something and you obey his command, that is no sin. He has commanded, worship no other God besides me and there is no one equal to me or above me. And we who are not Trinitarians worship no other God or recognize any other God besides or above the Father. We follow Jesus' own example.
It is not to say that God didn't create other beings that are also called Gods. We just recognize the difference between the creator and the creation.
We honor our parents as parents, not as God.
We honor/worship kings and queens of the earth as such, not as God.
We honor and worship Jesus as the Son of God, not as God.When I use the word worship, it is in the same spirit as in the scriptures… and they were not worshipping Christ as the Father, so don't let that confuse you.
There is only One God and we recognize that there is no one above him and that all things exist by his will. All that all good comes to us by his grace through his son. The Father is therefore above all.
You are missing the mark.
Exd 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name [is] Jealous, [is] a jealous God:
It does not matter how we worship Jesus Christ – If he is another God worshipping him as even the Son of God is still wrong! You have been warned against this!
WM,
Perhaps what you need to consider is what it means to worship God vs what it means to worship anyone else.
And for that, you will need to go back to the scriptures.
Moreover, it needs to be considered also that the Father's WILL is what is to be done on earth as it is in heaven, thus the highest worship is ascribed to him when His WILL is done… such as he commands. Do you follow me?If he says, kiss my son and all angels worship him, and we don't kiss his son, then guess what? We have not obeyed or worshipped him as God. Likewise, “do not worship other Gods besides me…” So in this regard is the balance. You pay homage to his son for surely you would not despise the son of God, but at the same time you recognize that it is his Father who is the God of all. Wouldn't you be able to make this differentiation if you were invited to the house of an earthly king?
Quote (WhiteMateria @ July 11 2005,17:56) You are missing the mark. Exd 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name [is] Jealous, [is] a jealous God:
It does not matter how we worship Jesus Christ – If he is another God worshipping him as even the Son of God is still wrong! You have been warned against this!
What I said was clear enough!KEY –
It does not matter how we worship Jesus Christ – If he is another God worshipping him as even the Son of God is still wrong! You have been warned against this!
I said it right the first time!
Thanks for the warning but I worship no other God besides the Father. I regard no one beside him or equal to him with whom he can be compared.
Therefor I don't need to consider…
“what it means to worship God vs what it means to worship anyone else.”
Worship is worship no matter how you do it. To worship another God apart from the true God is wrong so saith God and not myself.
Quote (Christofer @ July 11 2005,14:34) I have been looking at this issue for sometime – and I would like to point out it is entirely possible YHWH is Yeshua, and the Father was never part of the vision revealed to the Jews. Yeshua said no man had ever seen or heard the Father except the Son (John 5:37)- thus YHWH cannot be the Father – as YHWH was often heard from in the OT. If YHWH is Yeshua – then YHWH repeatedly tells the us He alone is God, which does make sense as the Father gave Yeshua alone the authority over heaven and the earth. I don't think the Father was being 'hidden' from the Jews, but that YHWH, His Son, was the Lord. I think it's important to remember that when YHWH says there is no other God – He is speaking against idolatry, not against His Father.
Now when coming in the flesh – it would appear that Yeshua opened a new part of the Father's original plan – revealing the true Father to all. We can assume it is the Father's plan – because only the Father knows the end day. Only the originator of the plan would know when the plan will end.
I find it interesting that this idea can explain the confusion found in Jesus only and Trinity doctrines.
Just a thought I'd love feedback on –
Blessings to you all,
Christofer
Hi C,
You quote Jn 5.37
“…You have never heard His voice at any time nor seen His form”
The discussion started in Jn5.18 as an answer to the Jews seeking to kill him.
There is no suggestion Jesus was making a general statement that never had any Jews anytime heard the voice of God.Hi Nick – I have been reading and enjoying your posts.
The question is – if the Jews didn't hear the voice of God – who was speaking to them? And who did Jesus profess to be God – if not His Father? I can't see YHWH being the Father if no one (Abraham, Moses, Noah, etc) ever heard Him. Jesus already had all authority over heaven and earth – right?
Its just a thought.
Quote (Christofer @ July 11 2005,21:37) Hi Nick – I have been reading and enjoying your posts. The question is – if the Jews didn't hear the voice of God – who was speaking to them? And who did Jesus profess to be God – if not His Father? I can't see YHWH being the Father if no one (Abraham, Moses, Noah, etc) ever heard Him. Jesus already had all authority over heaven and earth – right?
Its just a thought.
Hi C,
Perhaps I was not clear. God did speak to the Jews at times but the group he was conversing with had never heard the voice of God.Hi C,
All authority was given to Jesus and was not his of right. He did not give it to himself as he is not his own Father.
Jesus identified to the Jews that the Father was the one they called their God. He never claimed to be that God. Despite his best efforts what he said about himself and the relationship he enjoyed with the Father fell on deaf ears. Many in this forum still share the confusion the Jews had about who he was and agree with them that he was not who he said he was. I am sure you are not among them.And what did Jesus have to say about this? What does his Word reveal?
Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Luk 4:8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
And what did God have to say about this? What does his Word reveal?
Exd 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name [is] Jealous, [is] a jealous God:
Psa 81:9 There shall no strange god be in thee; neither shalt thou worship any strange god.
How about Nebuchadnezzer – What did he speak out?
Dan 3:28 [Then] Nebuchadnezzar spake, and said, Blessed [be] the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who hath sent his angel, and delivered his servants that trusted in him, and have changed the king's word, and yielded their bodies, that they might not serve nor worship any god, except their own God.
And finally what happens even after all that has been said?
Hbr 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Is there a huge problem here? Oh yeah believe me there is. These cursed angels are not doing what the Word cleary states OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER again if Jesus Christ is 'another god'.
Do you worship 2 gods Nick? Are you following God's word Nick? Before you say 'no way of course not' just remember Nick – The angels will worship him in heaven and one day you will go to heaven and be like those angels. Who is to say you won't worship Jesus Christ there hmmmm? Is this contrary to his Word if you believe what you believe today? I am not preposing the Trinity doctrine at you for the word Trinity is not in the Bible anywhere at all. But the word 'Godhead' is!
Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.What say you Nick?
You believe in God and 'a god' and yet you want to only worship one correct? The angels worship both and yet God says to only worship one? An explination is required.
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Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Rev 1:18 I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Isa 41:4 Who hath wrought and done [it], calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I [am] he.
Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God.
Isa 48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I [am] he; I [am] the first, I also [am] the last.
You had better have a good explination of why the first and the last says he is the only God and yet this first and last
which was dead, and is alive;
also
he that liveth, and was deadTherefor I have answered your question with whose names go in that book. Whose name really went into that book you ask?
My question concerning the why the angels worshipping Jesus Christ still stands and now I question about the first and the last. Your move Nick and stroshow!
Quote (WhiteMateria @ July 11 2005,22:16) And what did Jesus have to say about this? What does his Word reveal? Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Luk 4:8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Hi W,
I am not sure what you see in these verses that I do not. Jesus rightly says to Satan that it is God alone you should worship. It is in reply to Satan's request to be worshipped by Jesus.
Jesus was not stating that he was “the God” that should be worshipped was he? No of course not. He was telling Satan what has always been written and is written twice in the last chapters of the bible too
“Worship God”“Godhead” only appears in the KJV bibles and has been pirated by trinitarians and twisted to try to portray it's meaning as being that of a compound committee God. Read those verses in context, and in any other version and you will see it means no such thing.
It refers to the Father, the God of Jesus Christ.
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