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Quote (Guest @ July 11 2005,07:00) Nick,
You keep refering to Jesus as a “vessel”. Do I assume you mean that He was merely a container for God's Spirit and nothing He did was creditable to Him? But are not all spirit filled christians vessels for God's spirit? What dfferentiates Christ for us in that respect? Your theory, taken to its logical conclusion, promotes the idea that Christ is just like us. But the NT says otherwise.Re: epistemaniacs comments. Im sure the phasisees didnt recognise the spirit in Jesus when he called them a brood of vipers but he was nonetheless guided by the spirit in all His dealings with others. Spirit filled fellows can make seemingly harsh observations of others but the tone doesnt make them not true.
HI,
The Son of God is the greatest and most glorious being under God, begotten from God alone, and all creation came through him.But his greatest gift was of himself. He emptied himself and came as a man. He showed complete submission and obedience to the will of God though he retained that personal ability to choose as shown in the Garden of Gethsemene.
Those who knew God, such as John the Baptist and John recognised him for his own glorious origins as did Satan and the demons. They knew he was the Son of God and respected him. But he did not cast the demons out in his own strength but “by the finger of God”.
He is recorded as doing no works of power until he was filled with the Spirit of God at his baptism. From that time onwards he worked as a vessel filled with the power of God. When he returned to God his portion of Spirit was sent to fill his followers who have continued till this day to be vessels for God's power on earth.
He was just like us so we can follow him. Scripture says he was like to us in all ways except sin. But as 2 Tim 2.20 shows there are different vessels. We are of earth only whereas his vessel is of gold- divine origin.
We can be joined to him and share in his Spirit in God forever because of his choice to sacrifice what he had trusting God to make it better for him and for us. He chose the safest path of total submission so that God may be all in all. To God be the glory.
2Cor 5.19
“..God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself”
2Cor 4.7
” But we have this treasure in earthen vessels so that the surpassing greatness of the power will be of God and not from ourselves.Phil4.13.
“I can do all things through Him who strengthens me”I have been looking at this issue for sometime – and I would like to point out it is entirely possible YHWH is Yeshua, and the Father was never part of the vision revealed to the Jews. Yeshua said no man had ever seen or heard the Father except the Son (John 5:37)- thus YHWH cannot be the Father – as YHWH was often heard from in the OT.
If YHWH is Yeshua – then YHWH repeatedly tells the us He alone is God, which does make sense as the Father gave Yeshua alone the authority over heaven and the earth. I don't think the Father was being 'hidden' from the Jews, but that YHWH, His Son, was the Lord. I think it's important to remember that when YHWH says there is no other God – He is speaking against idolatry, not against His Father.
Now when coming in the flesh – it would appear that Yeshua opened a new part of the Father's original plan – revealing the true Father to all. We can assume it is the Father's plan – because only the Father knows the end day. Only the originator of the plan would know when the plan will end.
I find it interesting that this idea can explain the confusion found in Jesus only and Trinity doctrines.
Just a thought I'd love feedback on –
Blessings to you all,
Christofer
Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
Mar 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
If we are to be like angels in heaven what is to not say that we will not worship Jesus Christ just as the angels did?
Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon [God], and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
To whom did Stephen call upon and to whom did he say it to?
Yet Stephen was alive when he prayed to Jesus. What is to stop us living today to pray to Jesus?
And what did Jesus have to say about this? What does his Word reveal?
Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Luk 4:8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
And what did God have to say about this? What does his Word reveal?
Exd 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name [is] Jealous, [is] a jealous God:
Psa 81:9 There shall no strange god be in thee; neither shalt thou worship any strange god.
How about Nebuchadnezzer – What did he speak out?
Dan 3:28 [Then] Nebuchadnezzar spake, and said, Blessed [be] the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who hath sent his angel, and delivered his servants that trusted in him, and have changed the king's word, and yielded their bodies, that they might not serve nor worship any god, except their own God.
And finally what happens even after all that has been said?
Hbr 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Is there a huge problem here? Oh yeah believe me there is. These cursed angels are not doing what the Word cleary states OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER again if Jesus Christ is 'another god'.
Do you worship 2 gods Nick? Are you following God's word Nick? Before you say 'no way of course not' just remember Nick – The angels will worship him in heaven and one day you will go to heaven and be like those angels. Who is to say you won't worship Jesus Christ there hmmmm? Is this contrary to his Word if you believe what you believe today? I am not preposing the Trinity doctrine at you for the word Trinity is not in the Bible anywhere at all. But the word 'Godhead' is!
Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.What say you Nick?
You believe in God and 'a god' and yet you want to only worship one correct? The angels worship both and yet God says to only worship one? An explination is required.
I am going to take away one of your arguements before you post so that you cannot use it and it shall make sense why I did it.
You might argue that God has his own angels who worship him and Jesus has his own angels that worship him and neither worship both so therefor we should not worship both. The passage states that God's angels worshipped Jesus Christ and God is a jelous God. That will will not fly.
WhiteMarteria:
Im still waiting for ur take on:
Revelation 3:12
Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God.
Never again will he leave it.
I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name.Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Rev 1:18 I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Isa 41:4 Who hath wrought and done [it], calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I [am] he.
Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God.
Isa 48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I [am] he; I [am] the first, I also [am] the last.
You had better have a good explination of why the first and the last says he is the only God and yet this first and last
which was dead, and is alive;
also
he that liveth, and was deadTherefor I have answered your question with whose names go in that book. Whose name really went into that book you ask?
My question concerning the why the angels worshipping Jesus Christ still stands and now I question about the first and the last. Your move Nick and stroshow!
Jesus will write on there 'The First and the Last' as his own God and 'The First and the Last' as his new name. Whatever he writes it will be the same.
And what did Jesus have to say about this? What does his Word reveal?
Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Luk 4:8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
And what did God have to say about this? What does his Word reveal?
Exd 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name [is] Jealous, [is] a jealous God:
Psa 81:9 There shall no strange god be in thee; neither shalt thou worship any strange god.
How about Nebuchadnezzer – What did he speak out?
Dan 3:28 [Then] Nebuchadnezzar spake, and said, Blessed [be] the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who hath sent his angel, and delivered his servants that trusted in him, and have changed the king's word, and yielded their bodies, that they might not serve nor worship any god, except their own God.
And finally what happens even after all that has been said?
Hbr 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Is there a huge problem here? Oh yeah believe me there is. These cursed angels are not doing what the Word cleary states OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER again if Jesus Christ is 'another god'.
Do you worship 2 gods Nick? Are you following God's word Nick? Before you say 'no way of course not' just remember Nick – The angels will worship him in heaven and one day you will go to heaven and be like those angels. Who is to say you won't worship Jesus Christ there hmmmm? Is this contrary to his Word if you believe what you believe today? I am not preposing the Trinity doctrine at you for the word Trinity is not in the Bible anywhere at all. But the word 'Godhead' is!
Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.What say you Nick?
You believe in God and 'a god' and yet you want to only worship one correct? The angels worship both and yet God says to only worship one? An explination is required.
————————————-
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Rev 1:18 I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Isa 41:4 Who hath wrought and done [it], calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I [am] he.
Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God.
Isa 48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I [am] he; I [am] the first, I also [am] the last.
You had better have a good explination of why the first and the last says he is the only God and yet this first and last
which was dead, and is alive;
also
he that liveth, and was deadTherefor I have answered your question with whose names go in that book. Whose name really went into that book you ask?
My question concerning the why the angels worshipping Jesus Christ still stands and now I question about the first and the last. Your move Nick and stroshow!
WhiteMateria: im a supporter of Jesus being God & the trinity, i was just curious on you're thoughts on that verse
Quote (stroshow @ July 10 2005,23:27) John 5:23
that all may honor the Son “just as” they honor the
Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor
the Father, who sent him.What does “just as” mean to you?
How do you honor the Father? Do you Honor Jesus “JUST
AS you honor the Father. Or do you honor Jesus
“differently.You honor the Father by Prayer?
You honor the Father by worship?
Etc.
Do you honor the Son “JUST AS” you honor the Father?
Do you honor the Son by praying to HIM, “just as” you
do the Father?Do you honor the Son by worship, “just as” you worship
the Father?
Hi stroshow,Compare to:
Revelation 3:21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
And you know that there shall be worship all around… does that mean that we shall be worshipped as the Lamb of God, or as the One who sits on the Throne and Lives forever and ever?
No doubt we shall be worshipped, as kings of the earth… but does that mean that our glory shall equal or eclipse the Son's or His Father's? I believe not?
The entire body of scripture would indicate that the Apostles believed on Jesus, but as one who comes from their God, the Father. I can honor him in like manner and do.
You are forgetting…
Exd 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name [is] Jealous, [is] a jealous God:
And if we are to honor Jesus Christ any differently we have not honor him as the father.
No doubt we shall be worshipped, as kings of the earth… but does that mean that our glory shall equal or eclipse the Son's or His Father's? I believe not?
I want evidence that supports that we 'us' shall be worshipped at all?
Hello Whitemateria:
You said you used to be a christian and are now no longer a christian. Are you reconsidering becoming a christian again?
Do you believe any portion(s) of the Word of God?Are you an atheist or do you hold to some other belief?
Quote (Cubes @ July 11 2005,17:13) Hello Whitemateria: You said you used to be a christian and are now no longer a christian. Are you reconsidering becoming a christian again?
Do you believe any portion(s) of the Word of God?Are you an atheist or do you hold to some other belief?
I believe that some higher power exist. But I do not believe that higher power retains all the properties of the God portrayed in the Bible. However I can read what the Bible has to say and I can see for myself that it says this and not that. If I were to believe in the Bible 100% what I debate is what I would believe since this is how it is written.Further explain that I used to be a Christian but do not believe in it 100% therefor I cannot be considered a full and true Christian. So I rightfully opt to not be a Christian. After all one does not believe in God with only 90% of their hearts do they?
Quote (WhiteMateria @ July 11 2005,17:12) You are forgetting… Exd 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name [is] Jealous, [is] a jealous God:
And if we are to honor Jesus Christ any differently we have not honor him as the father.
No doubt we shall be worshipped, as kings of the earth… but does that mean that our glory shall equal or eclipse the Son's or His Father's? I believe not?
I want evidence that supports that we 'us' shall be worshipped at all?
Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.Quote (WhiteMateria @ July 11 2005,17:15) I believe that some higher power exist. But I do not believe that higher power retains all the properties of the God portrayed in the Bible. However I can read what the Bible has to say and I can see for myself that it says this and not that. If I were to believe in the Bible 100% what I debate is what I would believe since this is how it is written.
So then if I understand you correctly… you believe that there is someone greater than you who could have been responsible for creation; also that you believe some portion, if not all of scripture? And that what you debate is also your understanding of it?Did I get it right?
Ah but God said not to worship any other god. If Nick says Jesus is also a God himself then this would be counterdiction. Since the Church of so and so is not God we find this as not going against God's word and yet it is so counterdicting everything God establishes in his word. It is things like these that allow me to look at the Bible with doubt.
Princes and kings sit on thrones.
Princes and kings are worshipped as such.
We shall inherit and rule the earth…That is just part of the backdrop, but the scripture that I just shared with you is direct and would seem to make sense out of the above. Plus just to be the Bride of Christ, the Body of Christ who himself is the Lord of Creation, would undoubtedly bring you into some proximity of worship, I would imagine—but that is speculative on my part and I would have you receive it as nothing more.
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