Who is this Jesus?

[gollamudi]

Good morning sis,
But here it is 5 pm in the evening in my place( India). I am in my Office now. I am the Principal of one Telecom Training centre here in this place called Chennai in South India. You may not believe I long to read yours and Gene's posts often. I always get strengthened by those posts whichever may be the topic.

       A couple of days before I met a church pastor who claimed himself believing the only True God and His son Jesus. At the same time he was claiming that Jesus was the angel of Jehova mentioned in Old Testament and also the same being who gave the Law of Moses to Israelites. He also argued that the only True God was not revealed in the Old testament, but revealed only through Jesus in the New Twstament. The being claimed as God in Old Testament was an inferior and imperfect being.
I argued with him with many verses but he was not convinced. Please through some light on this.
Peace to you.
Adam

[Not3in1]

Quote (gollamudi @ May 14 2008,00:09)

Good morning sis, But here it is 5 pm in the evening in my place( India). I am in my Office now. I am the Principal of one Telecom Training centre here in this place called Chennai in South India. You may not believe I long to read yours and Gene's posts often. I always get strengthened by those posts whichever may be the topic.        A couple of days before I met a church pastor who claimed himself believing the only True God and His son Jesus. At the same time he was claiming that Jesus was the angel of Jehova mentioned in Old Testament and also the same being who gave the Law of Moses to Israelites. He also argued that the only True God was not revealed in the Old testament, but revealed only through Jesus in the New Twstament. The being claimed as God in Old Testament was an inferior and imperfect being. I argued with him with many verses but he was not convinced. Please through some light on this. Peace to you. Adam

Hi Adam,

I have seen much of India through travel movies. Before we adopted our children from Korea, we looked at adopting through India. One of the deciding factors for us was that if we chose India, we would have had to stay in the country for 3 weeks. Neither of us could take that much time off of work. However, close friends of ours have adopted from India and our children play together all the time. We share various customs and traditions. Anyway, you live in a beautiful country. May I ask how you became a Christian?

As far as this pastor and his belief of Jesus being an angel in the OT, I've heard this before. It has it's variations. Some say the angel of the LORD was Jesus. Some say that the angel, Michael, was a preexistent form of Jesus. While other's say that Jesus existed as an angel/spirit son before he was born as Jesus. What light can I shed on these theories? Well, I hate to disappoint you, but most of them can be found in the bible where their ideas began.

Most ideas can be supported by scripture. You just have to cut and paste them all together they way you want them to read.

Or in some cases, all you have to do is use the bold key to highlight certain parts of a scripture – the part you want to emphasis to prove your point.

In any case, most ideas are not original. You can find them all in the bible. Where do you think all these different Christian religions have come from? I know, I know….this can be disheartening at first. But I am coming to a reconciliation period in my life where I am learning to live at peace with this knowledge.
Love,
Mandy

[gollamudi]

Thank you Mandy, for appreciating my country. I am happy that you are seing our children daily there.
I accepted the Lord at the age of 15 during my school finals. I came to know Jesus through a pentecostal church in my native place. soon I was baptised by the Holy spirit and received the gift of unknown tongues. From my early christian life itself I used to doubt this Trinity concept. But no one was there to clarify my doubts. In the recent past I  started searching the net and found this wonderful site. I am very much thankful to the owner of this site and especially to you my sis for clarifying many of my doubts about trinity and the pre-existence.
      My wife, Anuradha is also a good believer of the Lord and is a woman of prayer. She often encourages me in my spiritual journey. We have two kids: son (Ankith Adam ) and daughter (Preethi Nissy) of 12 and 9 years.
      About that pastor, also I came across the internet only. He is from my State in India. He has started a separate ministry called ” Only True God ministries”. Here is the link to his site, if you want you can see his site and comment on the articles he posted. In fact he is interested in clarifying them.
http://www.onlytruegodministries.com/
Nice talking to you.
With love
Adam

[Not3in1]

Hi Adam,
I smiled as I tried to pronounce your children's names.  Preethi Nissy sounds so cute.  My children are 10 and 9, so we have a lot in common!  

Quote

A couple of days before I met a church pastor who claimed himself believing the only True God and His son Jesus. At the same time he was claiming that Jesus was the angel of Jehova mentioned in Old Testament and also the same being who gave the Law of Moses to Israelites. He also argued that the only True God was not revealed in the Old testament, but revealed only through Jesus in the New Twstament. The being claimed as God in Old Testament was an inferior and imperfect being.

What part of the website deals with this belief system of the pastor?  I briefly looked at the website but did not see this part of it?  Give me a heading to look under and I'll check in out tonight.  His site looks like he has put a lot of research into it.  Also, it takes a lot of courage to step out of the trinitarian way to view God.  You may find you have more in common with this Pastor than you have against one another beliefs?  I have found that you will not agree 100% with any one church.  Fellowship may still be possible if you and he are not too far a part?

For a One God belief site you may also want to look into:

http://www.truthortradition.com

They really helped me a lot when I first denied the trinity and needed to start studying. Good group of folks, again, you will not agree with everything, but there is some good stuff there.

[Not3in1]

Someone PM'd me with this website this morning. I wanted to post some of it here because it deals so wonderfully with who and what Jesus is. Some information obviously spills over into other topics like preexistence/conception and other's, but here is a good collective place to put it. Comments encouraged.

Some of this information has actually caused me to reconsider some of my foundational beliefs. Amazing.

PART ONE

Who do you say that I am?

On The True Identity and Nature of Jesus of Nazareth

The following article explains the nature and identity of the real Jesus according to the Scriptures. You will find the Bible passages which are usually brought forward concerning this issue are all addressed. If you would like more specific details concerning these passages, please refer to the Scripture menu on the right side bar of the main page. If you are a Christian always remember that you are a new creation, having died according to the human flesh and raised up with Jesus according to the new nature of the Spirit. God bless.

The Starting Point: Holy Spirit, The Divine Nature of God

God's divine nature is spirit (Jn 4:24), the Holy Spirit. This is why the Holy Spirit is also called the “Spirit OF God,” “the Holy Spirit of God” (Eph 4:30), and “the Spirit of our God” (1 Cor 6:11). We also find the Holy Spirit called “the Spirit of your Father” (Matt 10:20; compare Mark 13:11; Luke 12:11). For this reason Jesus teaches us the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father (Jn 15:26; see Acts 2:33) and the Holy Spirit is given to us by God our Father (Luke 11:13; 1 Thess 4:8; 1 John 3:23-24). We also see Jesus conceived by his Father in the womb of Mary by His Holy Spirit (Luke 1:35) and the Father anointing Jesus by His Holy Spirit (Matthew 3:16-17; see 12:18). It is through the Holy Spirit that Christians are blessed with every Spiritual blessing in Christ (Eph 1:3) and we have access to the Father in the Holy Spirit (2:18). Our Holy God is Holy Spirit by nature anf for this reason true worshipers must worship the Father in the Spirit (John 4:23-24). The divine nature of God is Holy Spirit.

Christians are children of God. Christians are people who have died to the old nature of the flesh. Christians are people who have been raised up from that death and have been given new natures by God: Holy Spirit. In the following passages, we see that Christians are those who are sharers in God's divine nature:

For in Him (the risen Jesus) all the fullness (pleroma) of deity (theotes) dwells bodily, and in Him you have been made full (pleroo) (Colossians 2:9-10).

Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God theos and Jesus our Lord; as His divine (theios) power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you might become sharers (koinonos) of the divine nature (theios) (2 Peter 1:4).

In the above verse from Colossians, the Greek word pleroo is simply the verb form of the noun pleroma. They are the same word in noun and verb form. Because Christ has all the fullness of deity bodily, we too are made full “in him” because we are members of that body. The divine power of God is the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:35; 4:14; 24:49; Acts 10:38; Rom 1:4; 15:13, 19; 1 Cor 2:4; 5:4; compare 15:43 and 15:45; Ephesians 3:16; 1 Thess 1:5). To be resurrected up by the power of God is to be raised up by the Spirit. Holy Spirit is the divine nature of our Holy God. In the above verse, Peter tells us we are sharers in the divine nature. The Greek word koinonos means to share something in common with another. By sharing in the Holy Spirit we have a common union with God, communion. In the above verse, we are told by Peter that we share divine nature in common with God, that is, the Holy Spirit. We are sharers in God's divine nature, the Holy Spirit (see also Heb 6:4). Flesh begets the same flesh and Spirit begets the same Spirit (Jn 3:6). Some read this passage to mean that Spirit begets our own spirit already within us. This is incorrect. When we were humanly born we were begotten flesh of our parent's flesh. The resulting flesh is the same nature as the originating flesh. In the same way, Christians are those who are begotten Spirit of our Father's Spirit. The Holy Spirit begets us new identities in our hearts. We are children of the Spirit of God.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is begotten of the Spirit is Spirit. (John 3:6).

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were begotten, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:12-13).

[Not3in1]

PART TWO

Children of God

Jesus was a son of God; He was God's child. What does it mean to be a child of God, a son of God. What does it mean that Jesus was a son of God? To be a son of Adam means that we are his descendents; we are flesh of his flesh. It means we share Adam's human nature. And in the same way, to be a child of God means that we are spiritual by nature. Since God is spirit, Holy Spirit, we must also be spirit to be a true child of God. It means we children of God share God's divine nature: Holy Spirit. This is why gives us His Holy Spirit – that we might become children of God. And just as sharing Adam's nature does not make us “Adam”, sharing God's nature does not make us “God.”

God is spirit (Jn 4:24). Indeed, we are told that God is the father of the spirits of all flesh (Num 16:22; 27:16; Heb 12:9). Angels are divine beings. They are spirits (Psalm 104:4; Heb 1:7, 14). For this reason, angels are “sons of God.” They are spirit just as God is spirit. This is also why we see that Yahweh manifests himself as angels in the Old Testament. To be a true child of God means that one must be spirit by nature. Indeed, we must not only be spirit, we must be Holy Spirit. Although God's angels are spirits, they are not his Holy Spirit. There are some good angels and some bad angels. For this reason, they are merely servants in God's household. They are not true sons because they are not Holy Spirit, the nature of God..

When we are born again, we become children of God. In order to be born again, we must first die to this life so that we can be born again into a new life. We must die to the flesh so that we can be begotten of the Spirit. So we die to human nature and are born again in divine nature. We die to flesh and are born anew in Holy Spirit, the divine nature of God. In this way, we become God's children.

Christians are Heirs but not yet Inheritors

To share in God's divine nature does not make us “God.” Presently, we are not divine by nature. We will only be divine by nature when we are raised from the dead. And just as having Adam's nature does not make us “Adam”, having God's divine nature does not make us “God.”

There are many who are confused and think that we Christians “have” a new nature in the sense that we ARE these new natures. Since we are “new creations”, as Paul says, they either suppose our old nature of the flesh has somehow disappeared and we are new natures, or they suppose we are new natures in some way and still old at the same time. However, this is not quite right. We do have a new nature but only in the sense that we have the Spirit, the nature of God, inside of us in our hearts. We do not have a new nature in the sense that we are new natures. We have a new nature in the sense that we presently possess a new nature in our hearts – the Holy Spirit which God has given to us. In this way, we become new creations by identity but not by nature. We are still mortal human flesh. We do not have a new nature in the sense that we have already become spiritual creatures by nature. We are not yet divine by nature. But God gives us His Spirit as a pledge and promise that we will become that new divine nature in the resurrection. We will become divine by nature and true children of God. We bodies of flesh will become Spiritual bodies when the two, Spirit and flesh, become one. As Paul explains when describing the resurrection body, our humanity will become divine Spirit when death is swallowed up in life and the Spirit consumes our mortal bodies of flesh.

An heir is someone who will inherit something. Christians are heirs. However, heirs are not necessarily people who have already inherited something. They are people who will inherit something. We will not inherit the divine nature of God until we are raised from the dead.

Notice how Paul says we, “are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus” (Galatians 3:25) because we have been clothed with Christ (3:27). Yet, he also says in another place, ” we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the sonship, the redemption of our body” (Romans 8:23). And indeed we read that God says that only he who overcomes will inherit the reality of being His son (Rev 21:7). How can this be? How can we now be sons yet not be sons until the resurrection? It is because we are only sons by identity, not by nature. We will only be sons by nature in the resurrection. We will only be “Spirit,” true sons, divine nature, when we are raised from the dead. We will later see more clearly just how this works when we discuss the nature of the resurrection body.

The Holy Spirit in us is a pledge by God of what we will be in the resurrection (Rom 8:23; 2 Cor 1:33: 5:5; Eph 1:13). The Spirit is life (Jn 6:63; Rom 8:10; 2 Cor 3:6). In the resurrection, that Spirit will consume our bodies of flesh in such a way that we will become “life-giving Spirit”, that is, immortal. We are only sons of God insofar as we walk obediently according to the divine nature of God, the Holy Spirit. “Those who are led by the Spirit, these are sons of God” (Rom 8:14). We are heirs of this promise of sonship if indeed we suffer with him (8:17-25). Presently, we are only sons of God by identity if indeed we walk according to the Spirit. But in the resurrection we will be sons in what we are. God is divine by nature and so true children of God must be divine by nature.

In a similar manner, we read that Christ was begotten a son in his resurrection:

But God raised him from the dead; and for many days he appeared to those who came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are now his witnesses to the people. And we bring you the good news that what God promised to the fathers, this He has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus; just as also it is written in the second psalm, “You are my Son, Today I have begotten you.'” (Acts 13:30-33).

Jesus was a true son of God because he was conceived by God in the womb of Mary by the Holy Spirit. Although he was indeed a true son of God before he rose from the dead, Jesus was a man of flesh. He was not the nature of God: Spirit. The man Jesus became a true son of God by nature in his resurrection. This is why we read that he was begotten by God in his resurrection. He became “life-giving Spirit” (1 Cor 15:45; 2 Cor 3:17). This does not mean Jesus did not raise in the same body in which he was crucified. We will later see just how this works when we discuss Jesus' resurrection glory. Although he was already a son who had been born from above in the womb of Mary, he was flesh, and being a man made lower than the angels (Heb 2:7), he learned obedience from what he suffered (Heb 5:8) and he was perfected through suffering (2:10). “And being made perfect he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him, being designated by God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek” (Heb 5:9-10). As a result of his resurrection, Jesus was made High Priest according to the order of Melchizedek (see 6:20; 7:24-25, 28). And so, in a manner similar to Acts 13:30-33, the writer of Hebrews says, :

So also Christ did not exalt himself to be made a high priest, but was appointed by him who said to him, “You are my Son, Today I have begotten you”; as he says also in another place, “You are a priest for ever, after the order of Melchizedek.” (Heb 5:5-6).
Jesus became a priest according to the order of Melchizedek as a result of his resurrection (see 6:20; 7:24-25, 28). And so we see here again, that God called Jesus to be High Priest by begetting him out of the dead. For this reason, Jesus is called “the first-begotten out of the dead” (Col 1:18; Rev 1:6; cf. Rom 8:29). And when Jesus had become superior to the angels by his resurrection glory, and in this way inherited a better name than the angels (Heb 1:3-4), we read that God says to him:

For to what angel did God ever say, “You are my Son, Today I have begotten you”? Or again, “I will be to him a fathe
r, and he shall be to me a son”?” (Heb 1:5).
And because he who had been a man lower than the angels had how become superior to the angels God says:

“Let all God's angels worship him.” (Heb 1:6).
And Peter speaks in a similar manner:

… the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, with angels and authorities and powers having been subjected to Him. (1 Peter 3:22).
And since we too will reign with Christ by inheriting this resurrection glory of divine nature, the angels will also be subject to us. And so Paul says:

Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Do you not know that we shall judge angels? (1 Corinthians 6:2-3).

The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him. (Rom 8:16-17).

We will reign with him if we endure with him (2 Tim 2:12).

For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Rom 8:38-39).

We are to understand that even though he was a son, he was not a son by nature. This man Jesus was not yet divine by nature. Jesus was flesh, and even though that flesh was the son of God who was begotten from above by the Holy Spirit in the womb of Mary, that flesh was human, not divine. It would not be until his resurrection that the man Jesus would be divine by nature when the Spirit of God consumed the sacrifice, the Lamb, the body of Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus is the first begotten out of the dead. He had to die so that we could die with him and be raised up again with him. For unless he died there wasn't a way for us to be raised up and become children of God. And so it is with all sons of God. Although we are sons if indeed the Spirit is in our hearts, we are not divine by nature since we are still flesh. We are divine by identity only. We are heirs of the divine nature; we are not yet inheritors.

Now that we understand what it means to be a child of God, a son of God, let us now look closer at who Jesus was and is.

“Son of God”: Peter gives the Correct Answer

One day Jesus took his disciples to a huge rock outcropping near Caesarea Philippi and asked his disciples, “Who do you say that I am?” Simon answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the Living God.” When asked who he was, Peter did not say that Jesus was God. He confessed that Jesus was the son of his God. Jesus blessed Simon profoundly upon this confession by granting him the keys to the Kingdom of God. (Matthew 16:13-19). Because we see Jesus blessing Simon in this manner, we need to cautiously cherish these words.

Peter's confession was indeed profound. You couldn't see anything special about this man (Isaiah 53:2-3). He was a mortal man subject to death. He was a man like any other man, a man like all of us in every single respect (Hebrews 2:14). He grew in wisdom and knowledge (Luke 2:40,52). He was tempted just as we are tempted though this man never did turn to committing a sin (Hebrews 4:15). Peter's confession therefore did not result from simply sizing up this man Jesus but out of a revelation from God (Matthew 16:17).

But there are those who are blind and confounded by some Scripture verses, especially those of the beloved John. John wrote his Gospel as he did for a reason. He wanted you and me to understand who Christ is/was in terms of the Word of God. And so, he begins his Gospel, “In the beginning was the Word… and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us” (John 1:1,14). John wanted us to comprend Christ in terms of all creation and to understand why creation exists in terms of Jesus Christ.

[Not3in1]

PART THREE

God Created by his spoken Word

The heavens and earth came to exist by the word of God (2 Peter 3:5). The ages were framed by the word of God (Heb 11:3). He called things that do not exist into existence (Rom 4:17). For He spoke and it was; He commanded and it came to stand (Psalm 33:9). By the word of the LORD the heavens were made and all their host by the breath of his mouth (Psalm 33:6). He commanded and the heavens were created (Psalm 148:5). Indeed, we read at John 1:3 that everything that has been made was made by means of the word of God. “In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God,” that is, the word by which God created everything was his own divine essence. His spoken word was what He was. God created everything by means of his divine word.

It is wrong to say this word was a person as some do. It is wrong to say this word was the Son of God as some wishfully plead. God spoke His word and things were created. God did not create by speaking a person, He created by speaking His word. Creation came to be when God spoke his word on the breath of his mouth (Psalm 33:6).

But some might ask, “Does not the Bible say that all things were created through Jesus Christ.” Indeed it does. Paul tells us that all things came into existence through Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 8:6) and “all things were created in him” (Colossians 1:16). And the writer of Hebrews says that God has spoken to us in a Son… through whom he made the ages” (Heb 1:2). But we must understand that God's word became flesh. God's spoken word became the person Jesus. God's word became an “I.” If we speak in a manner which would say, “when the President was a little boy,” we do not mean he was the President when he was a little boy.” In the same manner, we are not to understand that Jesus was a person before the Word became flesh in Bethlehem. When we read Hebrews 1:2, for example, we see that God has “spoken” to us through a son through whom he made the ages. The writer is clearly referring the same idea he expresses at verse 11:3, “the ages were framed by the word of God.” That word became God's son “in these last days” and in this manner God has spoken to us in a son. That son is God's word to us.

Someone might ask, “But did not Christ pray to the Father to be glorified with the glory he had with him before the foundation of the world” (John 17:5.24)? And indeed he does. But notice again that John begins his Gospel, “In the beginning was the word… all things were made through the same.” (John 1:1-3). The glory that God's word had with God before creation with God was the essence being divine, “and the word was with God and the word was God.” And in this prayer Jesus again alludes to the fact that he is that word become flesh, “Sanctify them in the Truth; thy Word is Truth” (17:17) having already taught us that “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life (see 14:6). In a similar manner, Peter tells us that Jesus, “foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was manifested at the end of times for your sake” (1 Peter 1:20). But also notice that Peter immediately thereafter says we have been, “begotten anew, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God; for “All flesh is like grass and all its glory like the flower of grass. The grass withers, and the flower falls, but the word of the Lord abides for ever.” That word is the good news which was preached to you.” (1:23-25). Notice he says we are born again through the word of God and he says the word abides forever. That word is the word become flesh, Jesus Christ. This word abides forever because the word become flesh rose into immortal glory in his resurrection. “By his great mercy we have been born anew to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3). He was foreknown before the foundation of he world. God loved his word before the foundation of the world. The entire purpose of creation is God's own word, the word that became flesh, His son.

Incline your ear, and come to me; hear, that your soul may live; and I will make with you an everlasting covenant, my steadfast, sure love for David. Behold, I made him a witness to the peoples, a leader and commander for the peoples. Behold, you shall call nations that you know not, and nations that knew you not shall run to you, because of the Lord your God, and of the Holy One of Israel, for he has glorified you…. For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and return not thither but water the earth, making it bring forth and sprout, giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater, so shall my word be that goes forth from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and prosper in the thing for which I sent it (Isaiah 55:1-11).
God sent his word and his word did not return void but full of grace and truth and glory. His word did not return empty. His word return to him in the form of a risen and glorified son.

God's Word is His Seed

Jesus teaches us that God's word is His seed (Luke 8:11). Indeed, we ourselves are begotten anew by this seed, the word of God. (1 Peter 1:23). We are God's field (1 Corinthians 3:8) and God plants his seed in us, His field. For this reason, Christians were historically called neophytes, “little plants.” Our fleshly bodies are that field and God plants his seed in these bodies so that his word may grow up from within our hearts. God's word, His seed, abides in those who love him, those who are begotten by His seed (1 John 3:9). God plants his word in us; He plants his seed in us. And when He does, we are newly begotten, born again, born from above. In the same way, God planted his seed, His word, in the virgin Mary, human flesh, God's field, and the fruit of that field, the fruit of her womb, was Jesus.

But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted. (Matthew 15:13).

I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth. So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but it is God who causes the growth. Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor. For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field (1 Cor 3:6-9).

Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted Word, which is able to save your souls. (James 1:21).

The Angel Gabriel announces to Mary she would give birth to God's son.

God had promised King David that he, David, would have a son who had come out of his very own flesh, from his very own seed, and this son would sit on his throne and reign forever (2 Samuel 7:12-13; Acts 13:23). Just short of 2000 years ago, God begat a son in the little town of Bethlehem just as it had been prophesied (Micah 5:2). His name: Jesus of Nazareth, the son of the Virgin Mary. Joseph had acquired Mary as his betrothed bride. Joseph was a descendent of the House of David. He was the seed of David. In the ancient Jewish world, you had to pay a bride price to acquire a bride just as Jesus paid the purchase price for his bride, the church. Mary was betrothed to Joseph and so she now belonged to his household. She now belonged to the House of David. That flesh who we call Mary was now the flesh of the House of David. And all the fruit of her womb now belonged to the House of David. Since she belonged to the House of David, Jesus, flesh of her flesh, would be a son of David and Mary's child would be out of the seed of David.

[Not3in1]

PART FOUR

God's Creative Word, His Seed, is Planted in Mary

The angel Gabriel came to the Virgin Mary and announced that God had favor upon her. He announced she would conceive a son and she was to name him “Jesus” (Luke 1:30-33). Gabriel explained to her that the Holy Spirit would come upon her, the power of the Most High, and in this way, she would give birth to a son. And Gabriel tells her further that it is for this reason, this son would be called the son of God. (Luke 1:35). God was about to beget a son, His only begotten son.

When you and I speak, our words are carried in the breath of our mouth. In the minds of Hebrew and Greek speakers, and in their languages, our breath is “spirit” and the wind is “spirit.” Our words are carried along the spirit of our mouth when we speak. And this is why we are told God made the heavens by His word and by the “breath of his mouth.” God's word is carried along the breath of his mouth, that is, the Holy Spirit. It was the Spirit of God hovering over the waters of creation and in that Spirit was the Word of God by which all things were created. And when a prophet spoke a word of the LORD it was because the Spirit of God had come down upon him, the breath of God in which his word is found.

So God's word is carried along in his Spirit. And when the Holy Spirit came upon Mary, the seed of God, His word, was planted in Mary, and God had conceived a child, Jesus. God planted his seed in the womb of Mary, and that seed was His word. Just as God plants sees in us and we are born from above by the power of the Holy Spirit, so it was that God planted his seed in Mary and Jesus was born from above by the power of the Holy Spirit. God only does this for us once we have died with his son and our sins are forgiven and we are made as white as snow. In the same way, Jesus had to be born of a virgin. It is for this reason that virgin brides, even today, wear a white garment, as white as snow. And so God's seed was planted in Mary and she conceived a son of , a human being, a person. The word of God by which he spoke everything into existence had become flesh, the flesh of Mary, a son of Abraham, a son of David, a person. The word by which God created everything, had become flesh, an only begotten of God the Father (John 1:14). And as a child reflects their parents this child reflected his Father: God. And as our own words express our minds, God's Word expressed him (1:18). God's word was no longer the reason of his mind. God's word had become a person, a human person. Jesus was God's full expression of Himself to us. In these last days, God had spoken to us by his Word, a begotten Son of flesh (Heb 1:1).

The Bread out of Heaven was that Flesh known as “Jesus”

Jesus taught that he was the bread that came down out of heaven. He said that the bread that came down out of heaven was his flesh (John 6:51). That bread was his flesh. Now we know for certain this flesh did not come down out of heaven since the Christ had to be the seed and flesh of Abraham and David. But he says the bread is his flesh. How can this be? The word of God became flesh (John 1:14). That flesh was the word of God which came down into the virgin Mary and conceived and that word became flesh (John 1:14). That word had come down out of heaven and become the Son of Man, flesh. That word had come down out of heaven and become a person, Jesus, a man of flesh, Son of man. The one that came down out of heaven was not a divine entity. The one that came down out of heaven was the Word of God which had become a person, human flesh.

And so John confounds those who claim a divine son came down out of heaven. For Jesus himself says that the bread that came down out of heaven is his flesh. Flesh was not a possession of the word, as some claim. Flesh was not an owned nature of the word, as some claim. Human flesh was that Word and that Word was flesh. Flesh did not come down out of heaven; the Word of God came down out of heaven. That Word became flesh. That Word was that flesh. To touch that flesh was to touch the Word of God (1 John 1:1-2). For those who claim an eternal son descended from heaven, the same cannot be said. For them, the Word is one thing, and the flesh another. For them, the Word is one divine thing, and the flesh another human thing.

[Not3in1]

PART FIVE

God was with His People, Israel

Immanuel
Matthew quotes Isaiah who said the Messiah would be called, “Immanuel,” or “God with us” (Matthew 1:23). This begotten son, the human being Jesus, is Immanuel. At Isaiah 8:8-10, the prophet Isaiah tells us how we are to understand these words. He tells us that Immanuel means “God with us” in plan and purpose. God was with them as opposed to against them. God was “with them” in plan and purpose by begetting a son, Jesus, “Immanuel.” Jesus was to save his people from their sins, the people of Israel and in this way God was “with them.” (Matthew 1:21). He was named Jesus, “YHVH saves” because he, the King of the Jews, would save his people, Israel, from their sins. God's son is God's salvation and now all flesh would see the salvation of God: His only begotten son, the man Jesus.

King of the Jews
Because he was the son of God, and the son of David, he was the King of the Jews, the King of Israel. He was to reign over the house of Jacob forever and of his kingdom there is no end (Luke 1:33). And the Magi saw his star in the east and came to bow down before this great King. This human was the son of God, the Christ, the Savior of the world. The son of God grew in wisdom and in favor with God and men (Luke 2:40, 52).

God sends his begotten Son into the world

“Into the world”
There are many who distort the words of our Brother John the Apostle. For he writes that God sent his son “into the world.” And in John's Gospel, Jesus also says, “I am the bread which came down out of heaven.” And he also says, “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.” And they resort to vain imaginations supposing that God had sent an eternal Son down from heaven and into the creation. But John knew how to confound the false teachers. He also wrote that Jesus said the bread which came down out of heaven was his flesh, the Son of Man. Human flesh did not come down out of heaven into Mary.

John carefully crafted his words so that false teachers would be caught in their own web of deceit. For we read in his Gospel that John the Baptist was “sent from God” (1:6,33). And we also read Jesus speaking of his own disciples, “If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you” (15:19), and “I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world,” (17:14), and “They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world” (17:16). Just as Jesus was not of this world, the disciples were not of this world.

And John makes it even more clear to us when he writes that Jesus said, “Just as You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world” (17:18), and “Peace to you! Just as the Father has sent Me, I also send you. And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit” (20:21-22). Jesus sent out the disciples by anointing them with the Holy Spirit (see 1 John 2:20,27). They were sent out by Jesus “just as” He was sent out by God the Father, by the Holy Spirit.

Begotten from Above
But we must be a little more clear on this matter lest misunderstanding makes opportunity of confusion. Christians, disciples of Jesus, are “begotten from above.” We are begotten from above by the Spirit, the Holy Spirit. Jesus was also begotten from above. But for Jesus this occurred when he was begotten in the womb of Mary. By His Holy Spirit, God the Father planted his seed in Mary, his creative word. And in this way, Jesus was begotten from above and for this reason he was a son of God. Yet, we too are begotten from above in a very similar manner. But we must first die with Christ so that our sins are forgiven and our bodies are like a pure white virgin (cf. 2 Cor 11:2). And then we too become a field acquired by God, bought with a price. And then we too may have God's seed planted in this virgin body of flesh, this flesh without sin, having had our sins washed away by the blood of His Son. It was for this reason that no one could be begotten anew until His son had died and rose again.

And so when we are begotten anew from above, we are new creations, not of the flesh, but of the Spirit. We are no longer from the earth for we died and our life is hidden in Christ who is sitting above at the right hand of God. We, like Christ, are “from above” and not of this world. Hence, now we must be sent “into the world” because we are no longer “of this world.” We have died and have been taken out of the world and have been begotten again from above.

Jesus is sent out at the Jordan
God sent his Son “into the world” by anointing him with His Holy Spirit. “The Spirit of the LORD is upon me because He has anointed me… He has sent me….” (Luke 4:18). “Behold! My Servant whom I have chosen, My Beloved in whom My soul is well pleased! I will put My Spirit upon Him, And He will declare righteousness to the nations. (Matthew 12:18; cf. Isaiah 42:1ff.). In this way, God had sent out his only begotten son, who had been begotten of a woman, begotten under the Law, to redeem those under the Law (Gal 4:4). God our Father put his Holy Spirit upon his Son to do these things. Messiah means “Anointed One.” Jesus had now become anointed. He had now become the Anointed One, the Messiah. The one chosen by God as the Messiah, was now officially acting in the office of the Messiah. God had now sent his son, begotten in “the likeness of the flesh of sin, and concerning sin,” to condemn sin in the flesh (Romans 8:3). God had sent his only begotten son “into the world,” the man Jesus. And just as God had sent his son into the world, Jesus would send his disciples into the world.

[Not3in1]

PART SIX

Jesus' Humanity: The Flesh of Sin

There are many who are frightened and confused by Paul's words “the likeness of the flesh of sin.” They think they need to make such words mean that Jesus' flesh only appeared like our own flesh of sin such that it was similar to our flesh but not exactly the same. This is untrue for our Lord needed to become like us in every respect in order to set us free. In the same way, we are told Jesus was made in “the likeness of men” (Php 2:7-8). He did not simply appear to be a man; He was a man. He did not simply appear to be the flesh of sin; He was the flesh of sin. But some who wish to be pious and reverent flee from these words because of their own confusion. Supposing such words mean Jesus was a man polluted with sin as if sin were some kind of filty substance in his pure body born of a virgin. However, these words, “flesh of sin,” do not mean anything of the sort. They mean that Jesus' flesh was just like our flesh. We have the flesh of sin and Jesus had the flesh of sin and God sent his son in this flesh of sin so that He could condemn sin in the flesh. Our biggest problem is death and our salvation is eternal life and we bodies of flesh will become immortal when we are raised from the dead. In the same place Paul says these words, he also says our bodies are dead because of sin. Our flesh is made mortal due to the first man's transgression, Adam's sin. The “flesh of sin” is not a human flesh polluted by some mysterious substance called sin as opposed to a human flesh that is not. Sin is an act not a substance. The “flesh of sin” is human flesh made weak and mortal, subject to death, because of our forefather's sin, Adam's transgression. The “likeness of the flesh of sin” simply means Jesus was mortal and subject to death because he was a human being and that is what it means to be a human, a son of Adam. The “flesh of sin” means that Jesus was absolutely human in every way including the mortality of human flesh that resulted from Adam's sin. And so we read that he had to be made like us in every respect and be mortal just as we are mortal so that through his death, he might destroy the power of the devil (Hebrews 2:14, 17). In this way, God sent his son in the likeness of the flesh of sin and condemned sin in the flesh, that is, he condemned the power of Adam's transgression over human flesh which makes us mortally subject to death.

God the Father did Miracles through Jesus

And we know that “God anointed Jesus with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.” (Acts 10:38). God, by His Spirit, performed many miracles and signs and wonders in the midst of the Jews of Israel through Jesus (Acts 2:22). Jesus even cast out demons by the Spirit of God his Father.(Matthew 12:28). In this way, we see that God the Father did mighty works through him, just as Jesus taught us (John 14:10). Indeed, we even find it is God in us who does might works (php 2:13)

God had given a Man authority to forgive sins

One day the Jews had become angry with Jesus because he had forgiven a man's sins. They declared that only God could forgive sins. Today, there are many false teachers who imitate this error of the Pharisees. The man who was forgiven was a paralytic. So Jesus asked them if it was more difficult to forgive a man's sins or to actually heal such a man from his infirmity. So to prove he had the authority to forgive sins, he said, “that you may know the son of man has authority to forgive sins,” he did the more difficult thing and healed the man. And so by healing this man, he proved that he, a man, had also been given authority to forgive sins. For this reason, we are told that the onlookers were amazed that God had given such authority to men (Matthew 9:1-8; Mark 2:7). And when he rose from the dead and sent out his disciples, he gave them that same authority by breathing the Holy Spirit into them (John 20:21-23). Indeed, Jesus' anointing at the Jordan was where he received this authority to forgive sins. God had anointed him with authority and power by His Holy Spirit.

Jesus had come in the name of his Father. When we come in the name of someone, it means we come in that person's authority. And the very means by which we do come in his name is by his anointing of the Holy Spirit. In this way, he commissions us to go out and do such things in his name.

Equality with God

In a similar manner, we find an account in John where the Jews became angry at healing such a man on the Sabbath (John 5:1ff.). This man told the Jews that is was Jesus who healed him (5:15). For this reason the Jews sought to kill him because he had done these things on the Sabbath (5:16). We should consider these words carefully for there are many who love to confuse the truth and claim they wished to stone Jesus for claiming to be “God” for these men would not break their Law and it was only because claiming to be God was blasphemy under the Law did they think they could stone him. Such are the inventions of wayward men. Here we find these men had desired to kill Jesus for simply healing a man on the Sabbath.

But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working” (5:17). Now Jesus had made it clear that he considered God to be his own father. This statement made them even more angry at Jesus. And so we read, “Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God” (5:18). Such are the words of John. It was not the Jews who said that Jesus had made himself equal with God but John. For in these words, John confirms that Jesus had made himself equal with God.

And here again we find the teaches of falsehoods making unfounded claims. They claim that since Jesus is equal with God then he is God. One wonders with what kind of mad thought process they conclude being equal with someone means you are someone. For it is clear in this passage that Jesus the Son is one, and God his Father is another.

We find in the words of Paul an identical idea. We should not rush into judgment concerning the similarity of words in the Bible. Paul refers to Jesus' equality with God at Philippians 2:6. However, we must ascertain if Paul meant Jesus was equal in the same sense that John intended. We cannot merely wish it was so or presume it is so. But when we look at the facts, we do indeed find that it is so.

Peter reminds us that Christians are “sharers in the divine nature” (2 Peter 1:4). John has a similar idea in mind when he says, “what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God!” (1 John 3:1). God is Spirit (Jn 4:24) and his children then are rightly spiritual creatures. And for this reason, we Christians die to the human nature of flesh and are raised up in the Spirit to walk according to a new divine nature of God, the Holy Spirit. And so when we read that Jesus was equal with God, we are to understand it refers to divine nature, the Holy Spirit.

But we must understand something quite clearly. We Christians are not yet divine nature, we are heirs of a divine nature. We are sharers only in the respect that we walk according to the divine nature, the Spirit. For this reason we see that Paul can say that we are sons of God at Galatians 3:25-26 but he also says we have the future hope of becoming sons in the resurrection (Romans 8:23-25). How can we be sons yet not yet be sons? It is because we are sons now according to function not nature. Only in the resurrection of the body will we become divine by nature.

And again it is here that certain persons, confused by the folly of deception, flee from the truth. For they suppose that having a divine nature would make us “God.” Such people do not see that having a human nature does not make us “Adam.” Sharing
God's divine nature does not make us God anymore than sharing Adam's divine nature makes us Adam. Sharing Adam's nature makes us children of Adam and sharing God's nature makes us children of God. We are now divine by identity. We are childre of God if indeed we walk according to the Spirit, “those who are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God” (Rom 8:14). Only those who walk obediently are children of God.

And so it was with Jesus. At Philippians 2:6, we read that Jesus was in the “form of God.” The word translated as “form” is the Greek word morphe. Thanks to the meticulous research of Kenneth Wuest, a Trinitarian, we now know that the Greek word morphe in Koine Greek meant a station in life, a role, a status, a position, a rank. For this reason we also read in Thayer's Lexicon that the word refers to the outward appearance of something. And indeed, we read that Jesus took the form, morphe of a servant. One is not a servant by having a certain nature. Just as one is not a carpenter by nature one is not a servant by nature. It is a vocation of life, a station in life, a position, a status.

And so to be in the morphe of God meant the man Jesus was a sharer in the divine nature. He was flesh born from above by the power of the Holy Spirit. And in the same manner, we are flesh born from above by the power of the Holy Spirit. In this way, we are sharers of the divine nature, that is, the Holy Spirit. God is divine by nature. God is the Spirit by nature. And when we are born again, we become new creations having died to the flesh and been raised up in the Spirit, our new nature.

So we find in Paul's words that Jesus had this divine status, role, position with God, because he himself was born from above by the Spirit and he himself walked according to the Spirit and was a sharer in the divine nature. Even though he had this equality with God, he did not esteem this equality with God a thing to seize upon (Php 2:6). Rather he humbled himself taking the morphe of a servant. In a similar manner, the Philippians, sharers in the divine nature, were to do the same. They were not to get on their high horses esteeming their heirship in the divine nature. Rather they were to have the same attitude as Jesus and humble themselves. Being begotten from above by the Holy Spirit, they were now spiritual creatures and as such were children of God and as children they were sharers in the divine nature. So in the same manner, we find that Jesus, who was begotten in Mary from above by the Spirit, was an heir of the divine nature. It is for this reason, the Spirit would come down upon him at the Jordan River. He was the heir of the divine nature, the Spirit of God. And being a sharer of the divine nature means you are equal with God, or the same as God, in that particular respect. And now we Christians are “made full” in Christ in the same manner. All the fullness of deity dwells in the risen Jesus bodily (Col 2:9). And then we read that we too are “made full” in him (2:10). We are made full “in him” because the body in which he was crucified is glorified into that divine nature, Spirit. He walked according to the divine nature and now he is that divine nature. In a similar manner, we are children of God sharing in that nature by walking according to the Spirit and having the deposite of the Spirit in our hearts. But when we are raised from the dead, we will become divine by nature, Spirit, and become true children of God in what we are. We shall be like God for we shall see him as he is (1 John 3:2).

[Not3in1]

There is much more to this article and if anyone else would like to view it, just let me know. Sometimes when you give a website, the specific information you are wanting to bring out gets lost. So, I posted the main thrust of the pages. Hope you all have time to give it a glance.

Good stuff!
Mandy

[Not3in1]

Just wanted to bump this for those who may not have got chance to look at the articles I posted from a website – they're good!

[seek and you will find]

Mandy I read some and I agree with some, but also disagree with some. I have not read all, will come back to it later.
Thank you for bringing it to us.
Peace and Love Irene

[gollamudi]

Nice to see your reply sis,
I know it's very difficult to pronounce our names not mine of course. Yea we have many things in common.
The website I gave you is not having all beliefs he has. He gave one book called ” The concealed Majestic Soverign king” in that he has explained how Jesus and the angel of Jehova are one and the same. But I also appreciated his efforts to come out of the shackles of Trinity beliefs. He is in touch with me. I have also introduced him to our forum. He is also interested in participating in this debate. You know he is not much educated and poor in english. But he can send mails and read mails. I want you to guide him to alltruth. I certainly gothrough the website you have given to me.
Thanking you.
With love
Adam

[gollamudi]

http://www.truthortradition.com
Oh! this site, that is my favourite site. It belongs to Biblical Unitarians. I have taken print outs of many articles from that site. I rate this site better than Christophiladelphians because they believe the Holy Spirit is working in present day belivers and also about the manifestation of gifts of Holy spirit in the preset times.
Thanks That's why our beliefs are common.
Adam

[gollamudi]

Dear Mandy,
Your lengthy post on dt 15-5-08 was an excellent post. Now I can get what you really believe and debate. I am fully in agreement with you in all. The language of the Bible really confused many in this world like the famous verses Jn 17:5, Heb 1:1-4, Col 1:15-17 etc. God has given understanding to you and other few brothers/sisters in this forum to infer these verses with their real meaning.
May God bless you.
Adam

[Not3in1]

Hi Adam,

Just so you know, that post was a clip from a website that I had received from somebody else. I do agree with much of it, however. It is a fantastic website for research. But it was not my original thoughts. I just wanted you to know that.

Take care bro,
Mandy

[Not3in1]

Quote (gollamudi @ May 16 2008,19:18)

http://www.truthortradition.com Oh! this site, that is my favourite site. It belongs to Biblical Unitarians. I have taken print outs of many articles from that site. I rate this site better than Christophiladelphians because they believe the Holy Spirit is working in present day belivers and also about the manifestation of gifts of Holy spirit in the preset times. Thanks That's why our beliefs are common. Adam

Adam,

I'm so glad you are enjoying their site. I know some of them personally and I can tell you that they are dear brother's and sister's in the Lord. They are diligent in their study and research.

I would like to send you a gift of their book, “One God & One Lord”. You can see that it is well over $25 now, but I bought a slug of them back when they were cheaper. I hand them out to people who are interested in studying about the Trinity. If you would like, I could mail you this book? Just send me a mailing address and I'll do it.

If anyone else would like a copy, I have up to 6, I believe. I'd have to check my library. It's a good book to have. They have done a ton of research that it at your fingertips.

I confess that the heart of my study on the Trinity is over. I have “proved all things” to myself on that one. Sometimes I long for the passion I had while researching it out…… But now I'm on to other subjects.

Love,
Mandy

[Not3in1]

Adam,
One more thing, this group also puts out a magazine that comes every other month. I am so blessed by it! See if you can sign up for receiving it. You would be blessed by it, too.

Here is another site that I dig quite a bit:

http://www.restorationfellowship.org

I know their leader, Sir Anthony Buzzard. He is a delightful man and very intelligent. His books are very quick reads. He has several videos out as well. I believe you could Google him, if you are interested. I own the majority of his books. I hardly disagree with him at all.

[gollamudi]

Thanks Mandy,
For lot of information for me. Infact I have already gone through the 'Restoration Fellowship' website. I have also downloaded 'The Human Jesus' videos from that site. I am in need of that book 'One God & One Lord'.
Thanking you.
Adam

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