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Hi KJ,
27And the boys grew: and Esau was a cunning hunter, a man of the field; and Jacob was a plain man, dwelling in tents.28And Isaac loved Esau, because he did eat of his venison: but Rebekah loved Jacob.
29And Jacob sod pottage: and Esau came from the field, and he was faint:
30And Esau said to Jacob, Feed me, I pray thee, with that same red pottage; for I am faint: therefore was his name called Edom.
31And Jacob said, Sell me this day thy birthright.
32And Esau said, Behold, I am at the point to die: and what profit shall this birthright do to me?
33And Jacob said, Swear to me this day; and he sware unto him: and he sold his birthright unto Jacob.
34Then Jacob gave Esau bread and pottage of lentiles; and he did eat and drink, and rose up, and went his way: thus Esau despised his birthright.
Hi David,
You wrote:
So we have an angel, demons, Jehovah, Jesus, John the Baptist, Nathanael, Peter, Martha, John, Paul, mockers of Jesus, an army officer who saw Jesus die, the Jews, all making very plain what they believed Jesus to be, the “Son of” God, or “God’s Son,” and hence, not God, but someone related to God, the “Son of” God.I write:
I agree with you whole heartily that Jesus is the Son of God and that He has a God, His Father-the Heavenly Father-the Most High God. Do you agree that along with the understanding that Jesus is not the “Most High God” , He-Jesus, is our God if we believe and abide in Him as He abides in the Father-Our Most High God? Jesus is called “God” in the following verses:
Heb 1:8 But of the Son He says,
“YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
Isaiah 9:6
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.You see David, we can rest in the fact that Jesus is called God in the above verses although He is not the Most High God, He still is and can be called our “God”, that is one of His titles. I believe that Jesus is the first and last one of His type being born directly of the Most High God. All other lives came through Jesus and not directly from the Most High God. We will never be equal to the Son of God and the Son of God will never be equal to the Most High God. Do you understand this?
Blessings, K
Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 22 2008,14:44) Huh? What are you rolling in that paper Nick?
KJ, are you sure that you are not rolling up?Sometimes I wonder because you seem to have great suspicion almost paranoia. You went from someone who was seeking truth to debunking scripture altogether. Why is that?
I had a friend who acted like this. He was a truth seeker, and had a sound belief in God, but he also enjoyed cannabis regularly. Eventually he reasoned that God didn't exist because God never did anything for him. But I always had to wonder because God does many things for those that are serious about him, believe in him, and serve him.
I know for myself that if I were to deny God or the truth in scripture, it would have to be a lie. God has done so much in my life that I would have to be insane to write God off.
Hi Lightenup:
You say:
Quote Do you agree that along with the understanding that Jesus is not the “Most High God” , He-Jesus, is our God if we believe and abide in Him as He abides in the Father-Our Most High God? Jesus is called “God” in the following verses:
Heb 1:8 But of the Son He says,
“YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.He is God in that he is the express image of God's person as per the following scriptures:
Quote 1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, And,
Quote John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. Note that God has spoken to us through His Son. Jesus did not teach his own thoughts, but he taught the commandments that God gave him to teach humanity, but he has experiental knowledge in living in right standing with God in that he obeyed God's commandments without sin even unto death on the cross. While it is true that he is our Lord, he is not God, but we are subjected to God through him.
Yes, God did call him God saying to him,
Quote Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness F3 is the sceptre of thy kingdom. But then the following verses explain why God has called him God:
Quote Hebrews 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. There is but “One God”:
Quote Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. You then quote the following verse:
Quote Isaiah 9:6
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.But this verses do not say that he is God. It says, “AND HIS NAME SHALL BE CALLED”. His name signifies his character, and so he is called those things because of the character that he manifests through his life. Again, he is God in that he is the express image of God's person. When we have seen him through the life that he lived and lives, we have seen God.
God Bless
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 23 2008,06:14) Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 22 2008,14:44) Huh? What are you rolling in that paper Nick?
KJ, are you sure that you are not rolling up?Sometimes I wonder because you seem to have great suspicion almost paranoia. You went from someone who was seeking truth to debunking scripture altogether. Why is that?
And what makes you think that when you seek truth, you end up finding out that what you have believed was not truth?Plus, if I CAN debunk scripture, why ask why? Should you not be posing your solution rather than just mentioning what I am doing?
Finally, I don't understand what you mean about “suspicion”. What is there to be suspicious about? I've just come to the realization that there are many errors in scripture and accept that. Blindly believing there is not does me no good and leaves me feeling hollow.
Quote I had a friend who acted like this. He was a truth seeker, and had a sound belief in God, but he also enjoyed cannabis regularly. Eventually he reasoned that God didn't exist because God never did anything for him. But I always had to wonder because God does many things for those that are serious about him, believe in him, and serve him.
No cannabis here. I gave that up 21 years ago. Maybe I'm having flashbacks
?And what examples do you have of God doing things for people that others cannot claim? Many people, Christian, Muslim, Atheist, Buddhist, etc. can claim that a tumor disappeared. There is not definitive proof that certain believers are given divine favors.
But if you choose to believe in God because you feel you will get some divine favors, isn't that rather a selfish relationship? You'd then be in it for what you get out of it. Try that in a human relationship and you'll realize the other person doesn't appreciate it. Why think that God would?
Quote I know for myself that if I were to deny God or the truth in scripture, it would have to be a lie. God has done so much in my life that I would have to be insane to write God off.
Again, as I already said, I still believe in God. I just don't hold to the idea that He is defined accurately in any religious text. All of these are full of bias.Nor do I believe I can hope to define Him accurately. How can anyone when there are so many who do not even believe in Him at all? The easiest clue of this is that adherents end up saying their way is the true way and saying all other people are wrong.
Hello 942767,
You wrote:
Note that God has spoken to us through His Son. Jesus did not teach his own thoughts, but he taught the commandments that God gave him to teach humanity, but he has experiental knowledge in living in right standing with God in that he obeyed God's commandments without sin even unto death on the cross. While it is true that he is our Lord, he is not God, but we are subjected to God through him.I write:
I think that we agree on things but maybe I am more comfortable to say that Jesus is my God. When I say that I am also saying everything Jesus says is truth and one of those things that He says is that the Father is greater than He is. I am not saying that Jesus is my Most High God because that is His Father's role and Jesus would not want us to say that because He would never want us to consider Himself equal to His Father. I do believe that, while understanding the above statements, believers can say that Jesus is their God as well as the Father who ultimately is the one true God-the Most High God. If the one true God calls Jesus God then Jesus is God and one needs to seek understanding of what that means to their lives.I do believe that Jesus was born of God before the foundation of the world and that Jesus was born God for us at that time. He didn't become God but was born God before creation of the things in heaven and on earth.
Context is king when seeking understanding of scripture. In some contexts Jesus is referred to as Lord and in others Jesus is referred to as God. Nevertheless, He is our authority and Savior and when we serve, worship, and praise Him, we serve, worship, and praise His Father also. Hallelujah! So…when Jesus' name is called “Mighty God” as in Isaiah 9:6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. Who's Mighty God is He? Well, I don't know about anyone else but as for me, Jesus is my Mighty God. Just as He is my Wonderful Counselor and my Eternal Father and my Prince of Peace.
Therefore, I am comfortable and privledged to refer to Jesus as my God but I do not refer to Him as my Most High God because He would never want to be called that for that name is only for His Father. Does that clear things up for you a bit? I hope so, if not let me know.
Blessings, K
Lightenup Could you change your color,please. It is really hard to read. Thank you.
Peace and Love Mrs.
How's this? Thanks for bringing it to my attention. I'm not sure if I can change the color of my previous posts. Do you know if that is possible? I'll try to do that. I'm trying to figure this whole posting thing out.
Blessings, KQuote (Lightenup @ Feb. 24 2008,13:48) Hello 942767, You wrote:
Note that God has spoken to us through His Son. Jesus did not teach his own thoughts, but he taught the commandments that God gave him to teach humanity, but he has experiental knowledge in living in right standing with God in that he obeyed God's commandments without sin even unto death on the cross. While it is true that he is our Lord, he is not God, but we are subjected to God through him.I write:
I think that we agree on things but maybe I am more comfortable to say that Jesus is my God. When I say that I am also saying everything Jesus says is truth and one of those things that He says is that the Father is greater than He is. I am not saying that Jesus is my Most High God because that is His Father's role and Jesus would not want us to say that because He would never want us to consider Himself equal to His Father. I do believe that, while understanding the above statements, believers can say that Jesus is their God as well as the Father who ultimately is the one true God-the Most High God. If the one true God calls Jesus God then Jesus is God and one needs to seek understanding of what that means to their lives.I do believe that Jesus was born of God before the foundation of the world and that Jesus was born God for us at that time. He didn't become God but was born God before creation of the things in heaven and on earth.
Context is king when seeking understanding of scripture. In some contexts Jesus is referred to as Lord and in others Jesus is referred to as God. Nevertheless, He is our authority and Savior and when we serve, worship, and praise Him, we serve, worship, and praise His Father also. Hallelujah! So…when Jesus' name is called “Mighty God” as in Isaiah 9:6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. Who's Mighty God is He? Well, I don't know about anyone else but as for me, Jesus is my Mighty God. Just as He is my Wonderful Counselor and my Eternal Father and my Prince of Peace.
Therefore, I am comfortable and privledged to refer to Jesus as my God but I do not refer to Him as my Most High God because He would never want to be called that for that name is only for His Father. Does that clear things up for you a bit? I hope so, if not let me know.
Blessings, K
Hi Lightenup:I have given you my understanding of those scriptures that you quoted, and as I said, my understanding is that Jesus is God in that he is the express image of God's person.
God, our Father, has revealed to the church who Jesus is:
Quote Matt. 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? 14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. 15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And then, there is the following scripture:
Quote 1 Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; And Jesus said that when we pray:
Quote Luke 11
1 And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples. 2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. 3 Give us day by day F26 our daily bread. 4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.
Although Jesus is worthy of all of our praise, and glory and honor, he is not God. Without out a doubt, without him there would be no salvation. He is our saviour and I love him and obey him out of my love for him. Yet, he is the Christ, the Son of the living God for that is what God has said to the church.
I do not believe in pre-existence. My understanding is that God made man in his own image. The first man was made a living soul, like God in that he had a mind, a free will, and emotions. The last Adam, Jesus, was made a life-giving spirit. It is in this spirit that man's soul is alive to God. God is a Spirit and God is love, and the last man is like God in the spirit of love. Jesus is the express image of God's person, and we become like Jesus as we learn to apply the commandments that have come from God through him to our daily lives.
It was God's plan to conceive a Son in the virgin Mary and send him into the world to be the propitiation for the sins of all of humanity, and to show us by the example of his life how we should live to be in right standing with God. I believe that all of this was foreordained by God in the beginning, but I do not believe that Jesus existed as a sentient person before he was born of the virgin Mary.
Quote 1 Peter 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, My desire is God's very best for you and your family.
God Bless
Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 24 2008,12:07) Quote (t8 @ Feb. 23 2008,06:14) Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 22 2008,14:44) Huh? What are you rolling in that paper Nick?
KJ, are you sure that you are not rolling up?Sometimes I wonder because you seem to have great suspicion almost paranoia. You went from someone who was seeking truth to debunking scripture altogether. Why is that?
And what makes you think that when you seek truth, you end up finding out that what you have believed was not truth?Plus, if I CAN debunk scripture, why ask why? Should you not be posing your solution rather than just mentioning what I am doing?
Finally, I don't understand what you mean about “suspicion”. What is there to be suspicious about? I've just come to the realization that there are many errors in scripture and accept that. Blindly believing there is not does me no good and leaves me feeling hollow.
Quote I had a friend who acted like this. He was a truth seeker, and had a sound belief in God, but he also enjoyed cannabis regularly. Eventually he reasoned that God didn't exist because God never did anything for him. But I always had to wonder because God does many things for those that are serious about him, believe in him, and serve him.
No cannabis here. I gave that up 21 years ago. Maybe I'm having flashbacks?And what examples do you have of God doing things for people that others cannot claim? Many people, Christian, Muslim, Atheist, Buddhist, etc. can claim that a tumor disappeared. There is not definitive proof that certain believers are given divine favors.
But if you choose to believe in God because you feel you will get some divine favors, isn't that rather a selfish relationship? You'd then be in it for what you get out of it. Try that in a human relationship and you'll realize the other person doesn't appreciate it. Why think that God would?
Quote I know for myself that if I were to deny God or the truth in scripture, it would have to be a lie. God has done so much in my life that I would have to be insane to write God off.
Again, as I already said, I still believe in God. I just don't hold to the idea that He is defined accurately in any religious text. All of these are full of bias.Nor do I believe I can hope to define Him accurately. How can anyone when there are so many who do not even believe in Him at all? The easiest clue of this is that adherents end up saying their way is the true way and saying all other people are wrong.
fair enough KJ.Just plain disbelief.
I appreciate your honesty.
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 24 2008,14:56) How's this? Thanks for bringing it to my attention. I'm not sure if I can change the color of my previous posts. Do you know if that is possible? I'll try to do that. I'm trying to figure this whole posting thing out.
Blessings, K
Lighenup That is much, much better, thank you. Wat are you trying to figure out? Tell me maybe I can help you.Peace and Love Mrs.
Hi 94,
You say
“God is a Spirit and God is love, and the last man is like God in the spirit of love.”Like because of grace-because they share the same loving Spirit of God?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 24 2008,18:46) Hi 94,
You say
“God is a Spirit and God is love, and the last man is like God in the spirit of love.”Like because of grace-because they share the same loving Spirit of God?
Hi Nick:The Holy Spirit is God's Spirit dwelling with his Son as a helper. The Word of God that has proceeded from God by His Spirit to humanity through His Only Begotten Son and His Christ is the Son's spirit that has been formed as the Son has learned to apply what God has taught him to his daily life.
Quote John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. Quote Hebrews 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Quote 2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. Quote John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. Quote 1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born F5 of God, and knoweth God. 8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. 9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. 10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. 12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. 13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. 15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. 16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
17 Herein is our love F6 made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
God Bless
Hi 94,
You say
“The Holy Spirit is God's Spirit dwelling with his Son as a helper.”So that Holy Spirit unites father and son.
Is it not the same Spirit that unites us with the Son and with God?
Hi KJ,
You say
“Plus, if I CAN debunk scripture, why ask why? “Are you greater than the scriptures??
John 10:35
“If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),Quote (kejonn @ July 01 2007,03:30) I came across this board in a pursuit of whether or not the Trinity was real. I have been a follower of Christ (some call this Christian but that word has lost its meaning) for 20 years and have always been bothered by the doctrine, but it has not really been an issue until recently. In any case, after reading many, many verses, Websites, posts on Google Groups, and the like, I'm still not convinced that at least much of the Trinity is correct. I will not say I feel all of it is, and therefore it must be incorrect in and of itself, but there is much that is true. Yet a little leaven leavens the whole lump. However, I think most of the arguments for or against the Trinity have used the wrong approach. One tries to prove or disprove the other and I think this just leaves both sides with at least some animosity towards the other — something God does not want. He wants the body to be in one accord: “If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.”
That aside, I think the approach should be to ascertain just who Jesus is. I have posted this thread in this forum and not in the “Truth or Tradition” one because I want us to approach this scripturally, with no traditional filters in place. I know that can be hard but we must if we are to get to the truth. Once we can come to the truth of who Jesus is, then we can apply this to the truth or fallacy of the Trinity.
To keep the premise and “rules separate, I will start off with my observations in the next post.
Hi KJ,
So you came out of a false church because you could not live with wrong doctrine.So since you were never safe in Christ then you now are in the same position that the greeks were in Athens listening to Paul.
you have the same choice they did-to listen or to mock and play games.
Please hear the gospel and respond.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 25 2008,07:33) Hi 94,
You say
“The Holy Spirit is God's Spirit dwelling with his Son as a helper.”So that Holy Spirit unites father and son.
Is it not the same Spirit that unites us with the Son and with God?
Hi Nick:Yes, we are born again Christians, therefore, God's Spirit dwells within us as our helper, as long as we are abiding in His Word. If we are his sons, then we are striving to obey the commandments that have come to us from God our Father through our Lord Jesus.
Quote Ephesians 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. God Bless
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