Who is this Jesus?

[kenrch]

Hi E,

Not sure that I fully understand what you mean, when you say the Old Testament was physical and the New Testament was Spiritual? Is this a blanket understanding?

Old Testament: You had to physically commit adultery. New Testament: If you thought about it you commited abultery.

An eye for an eye. NT: Love your enemies.

God bless!

Kenrch

[NickHassan]

Thanks Malcolm,
Well founded and presented in a very edifying manner.

[malcolm ferris]

PROVERBS 8:22-31
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

Who is the one speaking here?
Who was before the works of God?
Who was brought forth when there were no depths?
Who was there when HE (God) prepared the heavens?
Who was by Him (beside Him) as one brought up with Him (as a Son? – does a father not bring up a son?)
Who was daily His delight? (Is not a son the daily delight of his father?)

Surely this is another verse that adds to the recorded witness of God's Word teaching us that Jesus existed beforehand with his Father?

Anyway TJMTCW

[NickHassan]

Hi Malcolm,
Some believe that.

But it is written as wisdom which is also utterly imbued in every aspect of the creation of God.

Certainly Jesus is the Wisdom of God too but he is far more than that and he stands apart as a being from that beautiful inherent wisdom in all that was created through him.

We are strongly urged to seek wisdom in both the OT and James.

It is the glue that binds knowledge and order and understanding into all that is of God.

[malcolm ferris]

Well this WISDOM seems to be very much personified in these words,
and is said to be WITH God, Beside Him, His delight as well as able to rejoice before Him.

[NickHassan]

Hi Malcolm,
I have not closed my mind on this matter.

Prov
8.29f
“When (A)He set for the sea its boundary
So that the water would not transgress His command,
When He marked out (B)the foundations of the earth;
30Then ÂI was beside Him, as a master workman;
And I was daily His delight,
Rejoicing always before Him,
31Rejoicing in the world, His earth,
And having (D)my delight in the sons of men.
32″Now therefore, O sons, (E)listen to me,
For (F)blessed are they who keep my ways.
33″(G)Heed instruction and be wise,
And do not neglect it.
34″(H)Blessed is the man who listens to me,
Watching daily at my gates,
Waiting at my doorposts.
35″For (I)he who finds me finds life
And (J)obtains favor from the LORD.
36″But he who sins against me (K)injures himself;
All those who (L)hate me (M)love death.”

In context to me it speaks of the ways of God to be found everywhere immersed even in mundane aspects of our busy lives and that God, who is so close to all as Spirit, can show anyone the best and safest ways of life. It is odd how it moves from the creation of earth, as in Jb 38, to rejoicing in communing with created man.

[malcolm ferris]

Hi Nick

Thanks for that, It is an interesting question and I too am open to any further light that might be shed upon it.

[Elidad]

Quote (malcolm ferris @ Aug. 03 2006,20:27)

Who is the one speaking here? Who was before the works of God? Who was brought forth when there were no depths? Who was there when HE (God) prepared the heavens? Who was by Him (beside Him) as one brought up with Him (as a Son? – does a father not bring up a son?) Who was daily His delight? (Is not a son the daily delight of his father?) Surely this is another verse that adds to the recorded witness of God's Word teaching us that Jesus existed beforehand with his Father? Anyway TJMTCW

Hi Malcolm, If we are to read the Proverbs that you have referred to, the way you are suggesting, that is, understand that a literal person is involved, then you are going to have to contend with the fact, that such person is a female. Verse 2 & 3, same Chapter reads:
“2 She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.
3 She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.

See also verse 2 & 3 of Chapter 9.

In addition, you will note from verse 3 of Chapter 9, that “she” has maidens.

Also, it is not referring to a son but rather to a daughter, if we take it literally.

We can't have it both ways, that is say that it is a person and then in the next breath say that it is speaking of the son of God. If it is meant to be understood as a person, then it is clearly a female person; a daughter.

Verse 12 of Chapter 8 says that Wisdom, dwells with 'prudence'. Does this also mean that we should think that 'prudence' is also person? (Quoting from KJV & NKJV versions). Obviously not.

I believe Nick was on the right track with his comment. Basically, as I see it, this it but a case of personifying an attribute. Wisdom being the case in point.

There are other cases in Scripture where we read of something being spoken about, as though it is a person. Romans 6:6 is probably a good example. In the KJV it reads:

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey,his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Here it sounds as though “sin” and “obedience” are persons because whichever one you subscribe to, you are “his servants”=.

In this example “sin” and “obedience'' are personified.

Does this help?

Perhaps some may see reason for disagreeing with this way of understanding Proverbs 8 and 9?

May His peace be with you (John 14:27)

Elidad

[malcolm ferris]

Thanks Elidad, good comments.

I would concede that indeed this wisdom spoken of in proverbs is female as you stated.

In the example you used in Romans, I would also add that sin and obedience both have an end – namely death in the case of sin and righteousness in the case of obedience.
As such, becoming the servant of one or the other would put you into the dominion of one of two possible masters – God or the god of this world (aka Satan).
Such that if you are the servant of sin you are the servant of Satan unto death.
And if you are the servant of obedience (to what? the Word) then you are the servant of God unto righteousness.

There are also other NT examples of similar things – Paul speaks of Charity (or Love) in a manner that gives it personal attributes in 1 Cor 13

Perhaps because Love only has meaning when expressed in the lives of people…

Anyway thanks for the last post, blessings

[NickHassan]

Hi typrsn,
I have pasted your post to this forum for further discussion.

Oxy/Semmy,

I am responding to your post because I capitalized Logos and wanted to explain why. I agree that Logos does not denote personification. Logos (thought, plan, idea, etc) does not signify that the Logos was a seperate person with God no more than a man's thoughts, understanding, wisdom, strength are a seperate person from him. Just because someone capitalizes Spirit of God, Wisdom of God, Name, etc. though does not necessarily mean that they are implying that they are seperate persons. Although some undoubtedly do. When I capitalize them, I am distinquishing them from man or any other entity and also applying reverence and exaltation. I do not believe in the Trinity doctrine. The Word clearly teaches that God is one (Deut. 6:4; Gal. 3:20). Jesus Christ is God Almighty Himself manifested in flesh (1 Tim. 3:16; Acts 20:28). He is more than God's Spokesman. The prophets were His spokemen too. He is God Himself in human flesh. The writer of Hebrews makes this differentiation between He and the prophets of old in Hebrews 1:1-3.  
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——————————————————————————–
[1]  If Jesus was God in flesh then the scriptural line of 1Jn 4.2 has been crossed.
[2]  It also suggests you believe Jesus does not have existence in himself but scripture says he has been given to have life in himself.
[3]  It raises the question as to what happened at the Jordan. If He was already God why did he need to be anointed?
[4]  Why would Jesus refer to two beings -himself and his Father- if he was his own Father?
[5]  Was Jesus working in his own powers and did he have them from conception? Why did God have to learn?
[6]  What did Jesus empty from himself in Phil 2.5? Can God reduce Himself and still be fully God?
[7]  When Jesus prayed was he praying to himself?
[8]  Jesus told us to pray to God in heaven. If he was that God why would he suggest this?
[9]  Was God not in heaven when Jesus was on earth?
[10] Was Jesus not like us, despite what scripture states, as we are not God in flesh?

God was indeed in Christ reconciling the world to Himself-as Spirit-just as God can be in us helping us to will and to do[ Phil 2.13, see also Eph 1.22, 2.21, 3.17-19]]

[NickHassan]

Hi ,
Jesus is a man according to the flesh, exactly of our nature. And similar to us his soul being is as a vessel such that the fullness of the deity of his Father dwelled in him. He thus revealed God to men and moved and spoke and worked in the anointing of God.
Acts 10.38

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 13 2006,23:51)

Hi , Jesus is a man according to the flesh, exactly of our nature. And similar to us his soul being is as a vessel such that the fullness of the deity of his Father dwelled in him. He thus revealed God to men and moved and spoke and worked in the anointing of God. Acts 10.38

Where, in the Bible, is it written that the fullness of the deity of his Father dwelled in Yahshua?

[NickHassan]

Hi Is 1.18,
You have just told us you espouse the view that Jesus is YHWH
so why would explaining to you he is the Son of God
who was indwelled by YHWH
in any way be of value to you, me or anyone?

Have you now become a Oneness believer as that is their false teaching?

Coll 1.19.
Eph 1.23
Eph 3.19
Col 2.9
Jn 1.16
Jn 14.11
2Cor 5.19

If God is in Christ, Christ is not that God within him, so the references to deity in him relate to His Father. God also can dwell in us so that in Him in Christ all may be made one.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Jesus is the Christ, the SON of the living God.

[NickHassan]

Hi r,
You posted this in another thread

retepmurT
Posted: Jan. 14 2007,07:38  

——————————————————————————–
Hi Nick,
God our Father sends a big part of himself down as flesh in Jesus Christ.
God sends a piece of His spirit down to us when we seek and trust in Him. That's the Holy Spirit. It seems to me God sent Jesus to connect us to Him, Jesus being the Mediator between us and God. He sends a part of Himself in spirit to us when we seek Him to help educate and Guide Us, the Holy Spirit, right. 3 in1 right. Serving three different purposes but all part of 1 our Heavenly Father.
larry

You must believe Jesus is the Son of God as our hope and our salvation depends on the Son of God. He is the mediator for us with God, the prince of peace.

God does not have PARTS
PART of God did not die

That is of man.

[Cult Buster]

        JESUS our JEHOVAH

JEHOVAH isI AM                                  EXODUS 3:14      
JESUS isI AMJOHN 8:57& 58

JEHOVAH isFIRST & LASTISAIHA 44:6, 48:12
JESUS isFIRST & LASTREV 22:12,13,20  1:8  MICAH 5:2

JEHOVAH isROCKDEUT 32:4
JESUS isROCK1 COR 10:4

JEHOVAH isKINGISAIHA 33:22
JESUS isKINGREV 19:11-16

JEHOVAH isCREATORISAIHA 40:28
JESUS isCREATOREPH 3:9  JOHN 1:3  COL 1:16

JEHOVAH isSAVIOURISAIHA 33:22,  43:11,12
JESUS isSAVIOURACTS 4:12  MATH 1:21  LK 2:11

JEHOVAH isJUDGEISAIHA 33:22
JESUS isJUDGEJOHN 5:22

Jer 23:5-6  Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD (Yhovah)OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

[NickHassan]

Hi CB,
Still have to shout?
God is one.
Jesus is His son.

[Cult Buster]

NH

Quote

God is one. Jesus is His son.

God is one Godhead. The Son is also God.

Heb 1:8  But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

[NickHassan]

Hi CB,
Where does scripture say God IS a godhead?
Is a godhead a committee?

[Cult Buster]

NH. Perhaps you are still reading the Jehovah's Witness “bible.”
Many translations use the word Godhead.

Act 17:29  Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

                        Jesus our Jehovah

Jer 23:5-6  Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch (Jesus), and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD (Yhovah)OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.      

[Author]

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