Who is this Jesus?

Participant

Quote (malcolm ferris @ July 30 2006,03:49)

Hello Malcolm, I welcome your thoughts. Just a few comments in response:

Quote

Your arguement is interesting but it does not account for John 17:5 for example where Jesus, speaking directly in prayer to his Father says 'glorifiy me with thine own self with the glory I had with you before the world was'.
In which Jesus is very strongly implying an awareness and memory of a period he refers to as before the world was. As such it would appear he had an existence in order to be able to say this.

If we are to understand what Jesus says here, after this fashion, to be consistent, should we not also apply similar understanding when reading 2 Timothy 1:9. Here we read of Paul speaking of believers being saved and called before time began. No one argues from this that believers existed before time began. Why then should we then say that Jesus is supporting a view that he previously existed, when He prays the prayer being referred to?

However, I understand that there is a sense in which both He and believers did exist, if we look at the matter from God's point of view.

There is no question that Jesus “existed” before the world began. But did he exist literally as a person or in God’s foreknowledge; “in the mind of God?” Both Christ and the corporate Body of Christ, (the Church) existed in God’s foreknowledge before becoming reality.

Christ was the “logos,” the “plan” of God from the beginning, and he became flesh only when he was conceived. Preconception can cause us to read an actual physical existence into this verse, rather than see it as a figurative existence in the mind of God.

In the case of 2 Timothy 1:9 everyone acknowledges that we (believers) were “in the mind of God,” i.e., in God’s foreknowledge. The same is true of Jesus Christ. His glory was “with the Father” before the world began, and in John 17:5 he prayed that it would come into manifestation.

The way I see it, Jesus was praying that he would have the glory the Old Testament foretold, which had been in the mind of God, the Father, since before the world began.If this verse is telling us Jesus was praying about glory, he had with God many years before his birth, and then assert that this proves he had access to the mind and memory of his “God nature.” we have a real problem.

If, as a man, Jesus “remembered” being in glory with the Father before the world began, then he would have known he was God in every sense. He would not have thought of himself as a “man” at all. If he knew he was God, he would not and could not have been “tempted in every way just as we are” because nothing he encountered would have been a “real” temptation to him. He would have had no fear and no thought of failure. There is no real sense in which Scripture could actually say he was “made like his brothers in every way” (Heb. 2:17) and be tempted like us in every way (Hebrews 4:15) because he would not have been like us at all. Furthermore, Scripture says that Jesus “grew” in knowledge and wisdom. That would not really be true if Christ had access to some type of God-nature with infinite knowledge and wisdom, which He obviously doesn't have, even after he ascended to Heaven. Otherwise Revelation 1:1 makes no sense. Here we read that God (the Father) gave Jesus the Revelation which He then passed onto John. If Jesus was co-equal, and co-eternal with the Father, as some say, then the Father has nothing to pass on to a co-equal son, surely?

Quote

As far as I am aware no OT prophet claimed to be 'THE WAY THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE', none said 'I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE' and none publically prayed for God to glorify them as He had done previously – namely before the foundation of the world.

It is true indeed that no OT prophet claimed to be 'The Way The Truth and The Life', but it is also true that OT Prophets drew attention to the Messiah who would in fact fill such role. The focus of the entire OT is, the coming Messiah, who would be the Redeemer and God's appointed Saviour for mankind.

As for the statement “I and my Father are one”, have you ever considered this against John 17:11, where Jesus prayed “that we might be one, as He and His Father are one”. Here Jesus expresses a desire for believers, (us if you like) to share His oneness with His Father. Is this a different oneness to that which He spoke of in John 10:30?

The way I see it, the Father and Jesus are indeed one, but in what way are they one? Surely this has to be in mind and purpose. Thus His prayer that we would be one in mind and purpose with them. Like Jesus we should say, “Not my will but thine be done”, bearing in mind that we are urged to “let that mind be in us that was in Christ” (Philippians 2:5)

Perhaps you can show me in the terms of the old Proverb, that “I thinkest not aright”

May peace and grace overshadow our contemplations.

Elidad

July 30, 2006 at 7:25 am#23074

Ramblinrose

Participant

John 17:5 “And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

John 17:24 “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

July 30, 2006 at 7:39 am#23075

Ramblinrose

Participant

I am in agreement with Elidad.

I don't believe Yahshua existed in any form before his birth but I do believe he existed in the mind/plan/thought of God and was spoken of by YYWH (the word) through the prophets. His birth, life and death was the fulfilment of what YHWH had spoken of the one to come.

July 30, 2006 at 7:46 am#23076

Adam Pastor

Participant

Amen. Elidad. Amen Ramblinrose!
Elidad, I am really enjoying your posts.:D
It is so refreshing to discover others that are seeing these wondrous truths.
The Messiah was indeed foreordained before the foundation of the world. That is, ideal or notional pre-existence.
The Messiah however, like every other human being, came into existence at his conception.

(1 Pet 1:20) Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Incidentally, as well as items such as the Torah, the Garden of Eden, the Temple; the Jews understood also that the character of the Messiah preexisted before the world was created; i.e. the Jews understood that these things existed in GOD's counsel before they actually came into existence; including the Messiah.

In like manner, Jesus had 'glory in prospect'; glory foreordained for him. Thus, he had this glory before the world was because it was ordained for him and it was with the Father before the world was.
Hence, his prayer in John 17. He was praying that GOD would glorify him with that glory that was his in prospect; and then Christ says that he had given of the same glory to the disciples.

(John 17:22) And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

Yet we know that the disciples were not glorified at that time. Was is Christ talking about then? Glory in prospect; glory that has been promised to every true disciple of Christ.

Elidad & Ramblinrose, may GOD bless you in the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, Amen!

July 30, 2006 at 10:04 am#23080

Participant

Hi Ramblinrose and Adam Pastor, Thank you for your encouragement. I have found the quality of discussion on this Forum very good, not that I have ever been involved in many.

Actually, the last time I got involved with discussion through a Channel like this was about 4 years ago. I subscribed to a pro-trinity site and in the end, it was indicated that I would be struck off the list of subcribers, if I didn't stop presenting my questions. Hence I withdrew quitely.

This Forum has recently been recommended to me by a friend who has found it very informative and constructive

I am still trying to refine many of my understandings, as I think I still see through “a glass darkly” in some regards, but like to think that I have managed to improve in understanding since I started out as a Baptised and Confirmed member of the Anglican Church many years ago.

However, I have also come to understand that understanding of itself is not of much value, if it does not produce in us character that compares favourably with our role model, Christ Jesus.

To this we must all aspire. May this be our on going prayer, that we will be transformed into his likeness (Ephesians 4:13) from day to day.

Peace, joy and love to you through Christ Jesus our Lord

Elidad

July 30, 2006 at 8:41 pm#23083

Participant

Hi and welcome Elidad,
Your point is well made.

But the Unitarians would have you sacrifice the fact of Jesus being truly the Son of God for the glorification of his earthly nature as a man, the Messiah.

They do not accept he was WITH God in the beginning.

July 30, 2006 at 8:52 pm#23084

Participant

The Word was with God. What was Jesus before He was the Word? Was He a thought IN the Father?

July 30, 2006 at 10:42 pm#23100

Participant

Hi,
We saw in scripture several descriptions of Jesus in glory on the mountain and the recorded impressions of the apostles who were with him. So that glory was not new at that time but refreshed to him his previous knowledge of life in heaven with God to prepare him for his path of suffering.

Moses and Elijah were alive and with him.

How can this be WIT?

July 30, 2006 at 10:55 pm#23102

Participant

Hello Nick and Kenrch, You raise fair point. I will endeavour to address in due course. Time is scarce today. Mundane things of life do have to get addressed unfortunately. Will try to follow up with you when I have time to do justice to your comments.
Your input is appreciated.
Have a great day.
Elidad

July 30, 2006 at 11:06 pm#23103

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 30 2006,23:42)

Moses and Elijah were alive and with him.

How can this be WIT?

Yes I know. I also know that it is a deep question. “What was Jesus before He was the Word?” Just wondered if the Lord had revealed anything to anybody.

July 31, 2006 at 2:07 am#23110

Participant

Hi kenrch,
Why does the Word have to exist before he was expressed by God? It would seem to be an oxymoron.

July 31, 2006 at 10:02 am#23125

Participant

Quote (kenrch @ July 30 2006,21:52)

The Word was with God. What was Jesus before He was the Word? Was He a thought IN the Father?

Hi Kenrch, Just some thoughts for what they are worth, in response to your query above.
Firstly, let me give some background as to how I approach reading of the Scriptures. In the New Testament a few verses in particular, underpin my understandings. They are 2 Timothy 3:15-17 (NKJV) –
“From childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
and
2 Peter 1:20 (NKJV) –
“knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation”
In the case of 2 Timothy 3:15-17, when Paul wrote to Timothy, he was referring basically to the Old Testament, as, at that time, the New Testament was still in its formation. The same would be basically true with 2 Peter 1:20 also. A reference that alerts us to the fact that Scripture really needs to be interpreted by Scripture, rather than by yours and my bias, predjudice and preconceived ideas.

Hence, any thoughts that we might wish to know and understand about Christ must first of all be established from the Old Testament.

We need to be very mindful that Jesus taught from the Old Testament and he upbraided the Pharisees for not knowing the Scriptures (the Old Testament)“You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God” (Matthew 22:29)

Reflect on what Jesus said:

“Beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.” (Luke 24:27)
and
“All things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me” (Luke 24:44)
and
“Had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.” (John 5:46)

It becomes apparent, that whatever we want to know and understand about Christ, must first be established from the Old Testament. If we can't get it right from there, then will have no hope of getting it right from the New Testament. We need to build on the right foundation. So what is the foundation we find in the Old Testament?

We find from the book of Genesis to the book of Malachi, as Jesus reaffirmed, the Messiah, the Christ is the central theme.

All throughout the Old Testament, we find that the Messiah was the promised one. He was the one who was to come. No where, and I say no where, do we find any Old Testament writer indicating that they believed the Messiah already existed in heaven.

The only sense that they believe He existed, was in the mind of God, from whence they received word to record about His future coming and mission. Even to this day, Jews who are still looking for a coming Messiah, based on what they read in the Old Testament, have no thought that He already exists. Their failure to recognise that He has already come, relates in part to the fact that they have dark glasses on when they read Isaiah Chapter 53.

Thus, if you want me to understand that Jesus, literally existed before he was born of a virgin (in fulfilment of the OT promise) please spell it out to me from the Old Testament. When we can do this, then perhaps we can appreciate the New Testament much better.

From all that is recorded of what Jesus said, I get the distinct impression, that He based His knowledge of who and what His mission was, from all that He read in the Old Testament. He knew that He came in fulfilment of God's word. He was the 'word', the one written about and spoken about, become flesh. He also knew all that the Old Testament had predicted, in regard to His achievements and reward. He could truly speak about himself as though he had previously existed, because in the mind of His Father, that was absolutely true.

Thus to answer your question, “what was Jesus before He was the Word?” from what I have gathered, he was the one spoken about in the Old Testament, and all the words and thoughts expressed about Him came from the mind of His Father. He was the very essence of His Father's thoughts, similar in small way to thoughts in the mind of a husband and wife planning to have a child; if they do plan it that is (some don't of course). We planned our children's existence and envisioned their future, as much as we were able, long before they were born. Prior to their birth they were simpy thoughts/words formed in our mind. On a much higher plane, it is similar with God.

Let's de-mysterfy the word, “word'. A word is exactly that, a word. Why go beyond the fundamental meaning of “word” as we find it in every Dictionary. From my reading of the Scriptures, initially the Old Testament, Jesus, is indeed the Christ, the word made flesh. Before that word (which originated in the mind/thought of God) it was not flesh, it was not real, it was not physical. It was abstract. The same as yours and my thoughts that we hold in our head or write down somewhere, like for example those contained in a house plan. Until the house actually appears, it is just a word, just a thought, just an idea. (Refer also previous comments in this vein, which I think can be picked up on page 346, if my navigation is right?)

The big difference with God's idea, and our idea is that His is a supreme idea, involving a plan to bring many sons to glory through His one and only begotten son. Born into the world through Mary, rather than created afresh like Adam.

This is how I see it. Perhaps my explanation is unclear. If so maybe I need to work on it some more.

My main point. I feel we have to clearly understand who Christ is, from the Old Testament first, (if 2 Timothy 3:15-17 means anything at all), before we try to explain verses in the New Testament, that are used to try and mollify this point of view that I am conveying. If the Old Testament is able to make us “wise for salvation…… that the man of God may be complete…..etc”, as Paul said to Timothy, then it has the all sufficient message, that we need to fully appreciate. It behoves us to get it right accordingly.

May the Spirit of all truth guide our understandings and conclusions

Elidad.

July 31, 2006 at 10:20 am#23126

Participant

Hi Eli,
Before you expound your Biblical Unitarian style doctrine you have yet to explain :

how the Word is the same as a thought or an idea,
which we do not accept at face value as a word is expounded,
and how this Word can be
WITH God
and not just
IN God
[or just IN the scriptures] in “the beginning”.

Do you believe Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son,
through whom God created all things
and who emptied himself and
partook of our flesh and
was sent into the world?

July 31, 2006 at 11:28 am#23129

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 31 2006,03:07)

Hi kenrch,
Why does the Word have to exist before he was expressed by God? It would seem to be an oxymoron.

Hi Nick,
Why did you think before you typed your words?
God speaks things into existance. Everything was created through Jesus. Jesus is the Word.
Doesn't God the master mind of everything think before He speaks?

July 31, 2006 at 11:30 am#23130

Participant

Quote

Nick Hassan,July 30 2006,23:42]

Quote

Moses and Elijah were alive and with him.

How can this be WIT?

Hello Nick, I will attempt to offer my understanding in response to your above comments.

Firstly, I will assume that your have in mind the happening as recorded in Matthew 17:1-8. A happening that Jesus described as “a vision”. Refer verse 9. This is an important clue as to how we aught to understand this event. A vision is exactly that. It is not reality, anymore than your dreams (assuming you have them) are reality.

Now if you wish to read it as reality, then there is a lot of other Scripture that you need to harmonise.

Firstly, in spite of how we might read John 3:13 otherwise, Jesus said, “no man has ascended up to heaven”. How are we to understand this, if, as you say, Moses and Elijah were alive and literally in heaven?
If we go by Acts 2:29-34 King David is still dead and buried. He has not “ascended up to heaven”

Reading also Hebrews 11 through to the end, we find a list of the worthies of old and discover that none of them are in heaven, for they died, “not having received the promise” (verse 39) but will receive it together “with us” (verse 40)

Please do not confuse this, with what others may think happened to Enoch and Elijah, given the way the Old Testament record in such regard, is read by some. They are worthy of separate consideration, if what Jesus said about “no one ascending to heaven”, is meant to be understood the way it implies.

So in summary. The happening on the Mount was a vision. Moses and Elijah were not there literally. It was a vision used by God to teach Jesus's disciples, who were present, a very important understanding. And that was, that Jesus, and not Moses and Elijah, was to be listened to in future. They were to take their cues from Jesus, not Moses or Elijah (as per the importance they had placed on related Old Testament writings).

Thus the confirming voice from heaven,“This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him”

In the eyes of his disciples who were present, this vision should have established Jesus' standing and relationship with God, beyond a shadow of doubt.

One last point. The resurrection is the Christian hope, and has been from Old Testament times, for those who had eyes to see it. (The Sadduces, evidently missed the fact). Present day focus on heaven going at death, has down played the signifigance of the resurrection in Old Testament and New Testament teaching, but that is another subject entirely.

That's the way I see it, until some one can explain a better and more consistent way of knitting all the related Scriptures together.

May clarity of thought and understanding be given to us, in terms of Proverbs 4:5-7.

Elidad

July 31, 2006 at 11:57 am#23131

Participant

Hi E,

Surely the Father thinks before He speaks. His thought are not the same as our thoughts. Gods words are not the same as our words. We can't speak thing into existance.

There is no doubt that the Word is Jesus.
The question is why would Jesus want to go back to being a thought?
Joh 17:5 And now, Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

The Old Testament gave witness of Jesus. The Old Testament was physical. The New Testament is spiritual.

Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28 but I say unto you, that every one that looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

While Paul spoke of the Old Testament scriptures giving the witness of the coming Christ. The New Testament is the fulfillment of the Old and has spiritual teachings as compared to the Old Testament.

MY question: “What was Jesus before He was the Word?” As far as I know that question cannot be answered by scripture. I don't claim to know everything. That's why I brought the question up before the brothers and sisters of this forum. I'm not looking to debate the question I'm looking for an answer to it.

July 31, 2006 at 12:51 pm#23134

Participant

Quote

kenrch,July 31 2006,12:57

Hi Kenrch, A quicky on your note that just came through, before I turn in for the night.

There are several points I could pick up on in your note. Just let me say I offered you my point of view. There is no question of debate. Perhaps I have a bad writing style?

I endeavoured to give you an answer, the way I presently see it. Other points you have raise have already been covered in this Forum just recently, particularly the one re John 17:5. It needs no further comment from me.

Not sure that I fully understand what you mean, when you say the Old Testament was physical and the New Testament was Spiritual? Is this a blanket understanding?

Yep, the New Testament sure is the fulfilment of the Old. It made reality of its central theme, previously nothing more than words, spoken and written down by men chosen by God.

Thus, rather than being the ONE spoken about, He was the ONE!; in the flesh, the real McCoy, so to speak. IMHO

Time for me to sign off for now.

Peace and joy to you.

Elidad

July 31, 2006 at 1:20 pm#23135

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 31 2006,11:20)

how the Word is the same as a thought or an idea,

Hello Nick, Perhaps I can answer your question, if you can explain to me how the word (meaning 'the word' in connection with Christ) is not the same as a thought or idea in connection with Christ.

Is it possible to have the word,(meaning 'the word' in connection with Christ) without a thought or idea in connection with Christ?

Elidad

July 31, 2006 at 2:37 pm#23136