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To Adam Pastor
You have twisted my words to please your own ears.
Quote They are only considered to be carrying 'a seed' when with child, which means they first had to have sexual relations with a man to receive the seed. Next time quote all my words.
Quote (Ramblinrose @ Nov. 06 2004,19:42) You cannot be 100% human-being if you preexisted in some form before your birth.
What gives you this idea?It is written that he partook of the flesh and emptied himself of what he had before that. He partook of our nature. Pre-existence doesn't destroy that in any way whatsoever and it is implied.
Philippians 2:5-7
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.So he had divine nature and emptied himself of this priviledge and took human nature. If you think about it, to understand this scripture you have to understand that he had divine nature previous to him partaking of human nature.
Your idea that Jesus is just a man (mankind) like us and didn't pre-exist, goes against scripture.
Christ pre-existed. Scripture is clear about that.
Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.How do we explain away these and many other verses that talk about Christs life before Abraham and creation itself?
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god.John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[ 1:14 Or the Only Begotten] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.So Jesus was the Logos. But some say that Logos means plan and does not mean that the Logos was a person or identity different to God.
But Jesus is called the Logos in Revelation as well.
Revelation 19:13
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.Word of God = Logos.
Scripture calls Jesus the Logos before creation and also at the return of Christ to judge the world.
So why can't the Logos in Revelation be the same Logos that pre-existed creation? Why the supposed difference? Both are obviously Christ are they not?
I will end my discussion on the birth of Yahshua Messiah.
* You believe that Jesus is the Word in John 1
* You believe that Jesus pre-existed
* You believe that Jesus created the world
* You believe that Jesus is the (offspring) Son of God– I believe that the word in John 1 is YHWH’s great plan/what he said.
– I do not believe that Jesus pre-existed his birth but that he is the long awaited Messiah, of the seed of David (2Tim 2:8) from the tribe of Judah (Heb 7:14)
– I believe YHWH created the world but that the age to come is through the Messiah.
– I am currently of the belief that Yahshua was fathered by Joseph, of the House of David (Luke 1:27) and that Yahshua was the son of David, the son of Abraham (Mat 1:1) as spoken by the prophets, and that Yahshua was declared to be the Son of God with power by the spirit of holiness by the resurrection from the dead (Rom 1:14).Discussion would prove quite fruitless when our beliefs differ this much.
God Bless
That's fine RR,
I presume you came to these conclusions through study of the scriptures. But you do not seem to be able to or want to defend these understandings or reply to our questions from those same scriptures?Why not if you love truth?To RR,
Just to clear this up, I do not believe that Yahshua created the world, but that the world was created through him as scripture declares. Also I do not advocate giving up, or saying oh well we are too far apart to have meaningful dialogue. I think this is how some fall into error and as Nick said, how does this show that you love truth?
Anyway I still do not see how the Logos wasn't in the beginning with God and that the Logos wasn't Christ. For surely the Logos is coming to judge the world in the end of this age. Both of these Logos's are preceeded with the definite article, which denotes a person. And scripture clearly identifies them as Christ. E.g. The Word became flesh and the name on the robe of the son of God is the Word of God.
Of course you and I are entitled to believe whatever we want to believe and I cannot be judged for your beliefs so I need not change your mind for my sake. I do however believe that such things for truths sake are important. In accordance with this, I hold my beliefs accountable for the judgement of others. I do this to make sure that I am not overlooking something and to give me help if I am in error. Of course this also helps others when brethren search things out to see if they are true.
But with regards to the scriptures that talk about the Logos being with God and with other scriptures that talk clearly of the pre-existence of Christ (without using the word 'Logos'), how can I not say that he existed before creation when scripture is clear on this.
I am happy to be proven wrong, but no one has given me a reasonable explanation as to why Yahshua wasn't the first or why he didn't pre-exist.
If I said to you that Christ was before all things, would you believe that. But it is not me saying it. It is scripture. I am merely repeating it.
Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.I believe that if one loves truth, they will investigate all things with a passion and they will find the truth because they are true seekers. Also they will allow their own beliefs to be tested at all times in order to prove that the foundation of their faith is solid and unmovable.
To me it is someone who doesn't care who says “it doesn't matter”. This is why we have denominations. They are there so we can shop around for something that is close to what we believe or what we like and then let them dictate truth to us. I do not buy into this and I do not believe in giving up.
Truth is too important to not seek it everyday. After all we were created to worship God and for his pleasure. Truth is of God and he loves to reveal truth to those who seek it.
Quote It is someone who doesn't care who says it doesn't matter. Come now t8, when did I say ‘it didn’t matter’, I said ‘Discussion would prove quite fruitless when our beliefs differ this much’
What I said is true. How can you believe that Yahshua was born of the seed of Joseph when you believed he was a pre-existing being? How can he be just a normal human being when you believe he was with God in the beginning creating the world? I don’t wish to create discord between us and I can see from your post that this will happen, the same as it has happened to others.
You will never come to agreement with me unless you can forego these other beliefs and I doubt that you will, no matter what arguments I bring forward. I have seen you argue with Global, Isaiah and others in regard to the trinity. Nobody changed their beliefs to yours. I do not recall one person on this board, who argued for the trinity, change their mind and follow your beliefs. Those that have come to this board and support your beliefs, already believed this, just as I did, and I was extremely grateful to find someone who could see that Yahshua was not God.
For me, knowing Yahshua is not God (the Trinity) was just the beginning, a key to opening a door of other beliefs.
In regard to Messiah, I have only quoted verses from both the OT and the NT which speak the same truth. Why is so much emphasis placed on Yahshua being from the Tribe of Judah, and from the Seed of David (from his lions)? Could it be that this is a key to knowing who the true Messiah is?
In reply to Collossians 1: 15-20
Colossians 1:17 – And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist (stand, hold together).
before: Strong's No. 4253 – From the Greek word, pro. Meanings – before, above, superior to, or ever
in: Strong's No. 1722 – From the Greek word, en. Meanings – in, at, on, by, about, after, against, almost, altogether, among, as, before, between, by all means, for sake of, because of, through, when, where, etc.
consist: Strong's No. 4921 – From the Greek word(s), sunistao or strengthened, sunistano, or sunistemi. Meanings – strenthened, to place together, to set in the same place, to bring or band together, to stand with (or near), to set one with another, by way of presenting or introducing him, to comprehend, to put together by way of composition or combination, to teach by combining and comparing, to show, prove, establish, exhibit, to put together, unite parts into one whole, to be composed of, consist
Once again the understanding of the verse is largely determined by how the translators decided to render these “harmless” little words. It should be increasingly obvious how even the smallest, most innocuous words (in, by, for, and, but, etc.) can drastically alter a verse's implied meaning. It is for this reason you should utilize Hebrew and Greek Lexicons and Dictionaries from which you can determine other legitimate renderings. The New Testament is filled with verses that hinge upon these tiny words. If the context of local and global Scripture is accounted for, this verse can be shown to be saying:
“And He is above (superior to) all things, and in (through, because of, for the sake of) him all things stand/consist/are established/are strengthened.”
Or, to be less cluttered,
“And He is superior to all things, and because of him all things are firmly established.”The above was quoted from the following site – please read the whole article:
http://www.torahofmessiah.com/col11520.html
Articles on pre-existence, virgin birth, etc follow (I do not necessarily hold to all aspects of what is in these articles):
http://www.mindspring.com/~anthonybuzzard/preexist.htm
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/5257/complete.htm
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/5257/isjesus.htm
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/5257/keywords.htmhttp://www.torahofmessiah.com/virginbirth.html
http://www.angelfire.com/in4/twowitnesses/VirginBirth.html
God Bless
To RR,
Hey this is good. You are actually giving a reason for what you believe. I cannot complain about that. I will go through it to see if I can learn something or challenge it to see if it is so.
Also I mentioned it once before, but I can tell that you do not agree with me defending scripture and putting away Global and others using scripture. But I am here to speak the truth that God has given me. God told me himself to do what I am doing now. I am accountable to God and if your opinion on this is different, then what do you suppose I should do?
If others are not changed by what God has put in my heart, then what is that to me. I am accountable to do what God has told me to do. What others do about that is their choice. All we can do in this life is do what God is telling us to do. It doesn't matter what people say. I am sure that Noah would say the same thing for example.
Your statement: (“Nobody changed their beliefs to yours. I do not recall one person on this board, who argued for the trinity, change their mind and follow your beliefs.”) is not reflective of what is really happening here. I could show you email after email where the Trinity Writing has made an impact in someones life. I regularly receive encouragement from people all over the world saying what a blessing it is. A common quote I get is that the writing explains what was already in their heart, but they just couldn't express or defend it well. You see many people just need to see it written down or taught. It helps them to see that they were not going crazy after all. And it also helps them to see the aponents of what God has put in their hearts running away when scripture is used.
Who you see here in the Forum are more often that not, those who teach. Those who teach do not always teach truth and all teachers are judged more severly than others, so not all should be teachers. Of course many Trinitarians get wound up when the Trinity is questioned and the Forum has attracted a few of these kinds of people too. But they usually give up when they realise that their belief is indeed questionable.
If they challenge what I have written, then I must defend it or concede that they are right. So what you see there is that very thing. But the silent majority of people who come here are readers only and I always have that in mind when I am writing.
Take a look at how many times the Trinity Discussion has been viewed and compare it to how many posts there are. The Trinity Writing is also very popular and most of the time it ranks as #1 in Google with the search term “trinity doctrine”.
Anyway I will look at what you have written.
thx
Hi RR,
Jn 1.14″ The Word BECAME FLESH and made his dwelling among us and we have seen his glory.The glory of an only Son coming from the Father filled with enduring love” The Word existed before he was physically born and CAME FROM the Father.1 Jn 4.2″ This is how you can recognise God's Spirit:every spirit that acknowledges Jesus Christ COME IN THE FLESH belongs to God while every spirit that fails to acknowledge him does not belong to God. Such is the spirit of the antichrist”
He existed with God. He shed his divine nature and took on human flesh for 33 years. He died but did not decay but was resurrected into his original tent, his damaged human body and returned to the Father.
2 Jn 1.7 “Many deceitful men have gone out into the world, men who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as COMING IN THE FLESH. Such is the deceitful one. This is the antichrist”
He was, but he came and shared our fleshly existence for a time.
Heb 2. 9 ” ..Jesus who was made FOR A LITTLE WHILE lower than the angels ,that through God's gracious will he might taste death for the sake of all men”. He was higher than the angels till he took flesh.Heb 2. 14″ 'Here am I [Jesus] and the children God has given me.' Now since the children are men of blood and flesh Jesus likewise had a full share in ours, that by his death he might rob the devil , the prince of death, of his power”
Heb 5. 7 ” in the days when he was IN THE FLESH he offered prayers and supplications with loud cries and tears to God , who was able to save him from death and he was heard because of his reverence”
1 Tim 3. 16″.. He [Jesus ]was MANIFESTED IN THE FLESH..” He existed then was revealed to men in flesh.
Are you your body or do you live in your flesh? When you die is that all or does your soul and spirit still live? Yes they do ,they sleep till the resurrection. Jesus was the same as us in every way except sin and he was the firstborn from the dead. We can follow him because of these facts.
Do not let ignorant and uninspired men deceive you and lead you away from the truth, RR. You are precious to the Lord and we need you too.
Hi t8,
Heresy causes death to it's believers as they do not find the right path and both the blind leaders and blinded followers fall into the ditch. The whore of Babylon was the true church till the great apostasy and now her leaders and followers will experience God's wrath and that is why they are advised to “come out of her”.
2 Peter warns of false teachers who will smuggle in pernicious heresies. They will go as far as to deny the Master who acquired them for his own, thereby bringing on themselves swift disaster. He goes on to say ” it would have been better for them not to have recognised the road to holiness than to have turned their backs on the holy law handed on to them once they had known it”
Paul in 1 Tim also warns that ” In later times some will turn away from the faith” and in the second letter says “They will not tolerate sound doctrine but following their own desires will surround themslves with teachers who tickle their ears. They will stop listening to the truth and will wander off to fables”
I have seen you accused of heresy yet you strive to prove the truth from the Word. Grace to you brother.The grace of God follows true doctrine and we need to remain in His Love. To worship our God you must know Him as he is revealed or you are not worshipping Him.
1 Jn 2.24″ As for you let what you have heard from the beginning reain in your hearts. If what you heard in the beginning does remain in your hearts then you, in turn, will remain in the Son and in the Father”
To Nick H
Quote Great work RR,
The only problem is that Joseph, the offspring of David, was not the genetic father of Jesus although as his parent he fulfilled the prophecy. So if Jesus had inherited human genes they could only come through Mary?
?How do you so easily dismiss all the following verses, like shewing away an anoying fly, for the sake of two passages of the virgin birth? All the verses I have quoted both OT & NT(and there are more) agree.
Quote Deut 18:18
I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.2 Samuel 7:12
And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.1 Kings 2:33
Their blood shall therefore return upon the head of Joab, and upon the head of his seed for ever: but upon David, and upon his seed, and upon his house, and upon his throne, shall there be peace for ever from the LORD.1 Chronicles 17:11
And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom.Psalms 89:3 3
I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant, 4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.Jeremiah 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith YAH, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
Matthew 1:1
The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham:Mark 10: 47 And when he heard that it was Jesus of Nazareth, he began to cry out, and say, Jesus, thou Son of David, have mercy on me.
48 And many charged him that he should hold his peace: but he cried the more a great deal, Thou Son of David, have mercy on me.Luke 4:22
And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph‘s son?John 1:45
Philip found Nathanael and said to him, “We have found Him of whom Moses in the law, and also the prophets, wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”John 6:42
And they said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”John 7 :42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?
Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us unto this day.2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that YAH had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up the Messiah to sit on his throne;
Acts 13:22-23 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfill all my will.13:23 Of this man's seed hath YAH according to his promise raised unto Israel a Savior, Yahshua:
Romans 1:1
Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:Romans 9:3
For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.1 Corinthians 15: 21
“For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.”Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.Hebrews 7:14
For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.2 Timothy 2:8
Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:Revelation 5: 5
“And one of the elders said to me, weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the book and to loose the seven seals thereof.”Revelation 22: 16
“I, Yahshua, have sent mine angel to testify to you these things in the congregations. I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright and morning star.”Why bother with genealogy if it was not an important factor to knowing who the Messiah was when he came. Are you suggesting the the prophets had is all wrong? All say that he will be from 'the seed of David', 'that he would proceed from David's bowels', 'from David's loins', 'which will be of thy sons'. A seed comes from a man, not a woman.
What do I have to defend? Is it not I who am agreeing with all the above scripture?
Hi RR,
How too can you so easily dismiss the passages about the virgin birth? Or the verses about the Logos? You accuse me of rejecting them but I do not. I do not know everything and need to submit to the Word to have truth revealed.I do not dismiss any of the verses you quoted and I do know the answer to your personal conundrum can be found through more study because scripture cannot be broken nor lose it's force.
No scripture can be dismissed not a jot or tittle. We do not own it but it belongs to God.There is no conflict in scripture, only in men's minds.Truth is not a matter of opinion.
Men build their doctrines based on incomplete knowledge discarding what they do not understand. In so doing they make themselves greater than the Word and insult the Spirit
who wrote it through men.I know the only begotten Son of God came from heaven in the Flesh as a son of David and that is enough for me. The details of geneology do not change any of these facts.
Please be patient, wait, listen to others and search the scriptures as the answers are there.” I offer you praise O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because what youy have hidden from the learned and the clever you have revealed to merest children.”
Blessings to you brother.Honestly Nick,
Stop skirting around the versus at hand and give me an answer.
22 passages, all from different parts of the bible, both OT and NT, all in agreement.
I believe they speak truth, do you?
Dear RR,
Please read my last post. What is it about 'yes' that you do not understand? As I have told you I accept the whole bible. I know there is an occasional verse that can be proven to be corrupt from the manuscripts. Can you show us that these verses you cannot accept have been corrupted, because we all need to know? Or is it because you do not see them fitting with your new doctrine that you find them inconvenient?You are throwing out the baby [essential truth] with the bathwater[misunderstood geneology].Why is it that once someone accepts a false doctrine they no longer can listen to reason?
2Thess 2.”Therefore God is sending upon them a perverse spirit which leads them to give credence to falsehood”
Hi RR,
If you were walking along an unknown trail through dangerous country and you came to a fork in the road you would get out your map and compass would you not? If your map and compass did not seem to help would you throw them away and head off into the unknown despite the risks?
Would it not be better to sit down and check if the compass is jammed and turn the map around in case it was held the wrong way? Perhaps there is iron in the vicinity to distract the compass bearing? If you can still not make sense of it would you not wait for a fellow traveller to help explain the situation to you?You are not alone in seeking truth.If you were walking in an unknown country, and lost your way, and you asked 24 people for directions and 22 said one way and 2 said the other – which way would you go?
You have said that you believe the versus I posted are truth. So why accuse me of false doctrine?
On one hand you have said you accept these verses but on the other hand you have said the following:
Quote The only problem is that Joseph, the offspring of David, was not the genetic father of Jesus although as his parent he fulfilled the prophecy. So if Jesus had inherited human genes they could only come through Mary? A seed comes only from a male.
Ramblinrose, I have already explained to you that scripturally, the Bible speaks of men's seed & women's seed in the same context i.e. men's offspring & women's offspring
Therefore, Yeshua is BOTH, the seed of the woman & the seed of David … he is of the seed of David via his mother, Mary, alone'Seed of the woman' means scripturally, to be the literal child of that woman as much as to be of the 'seed of the man' means to be the literal child of that man.
Anyway, for the edification of others …
Here are some examples of the Scriptures speaking of woman's seed meaning woman's offspring :-The Hebrew word used is zera as in Gen 3.15.
Speaking of Eve, … (Gen 4:25) And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed/ZERA instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.
Abel therefore was the SEED of Eve (as much as Cain, Seth, etc)The angel said to Hagar … (Gen 16:10) And the angel of YAHWEH said unto her, I will multiply thy seed/ZERA exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.
Concerning Rebekah …
(Gen 24:60) And they blessed Rebekah, and said unto her, Thou art our sister, be thou the mother of thousands of millions, and let thy seed/ZERA possess the gate of those which hate them.(Lev 22:13) But if the priest's daughter be a widow, or divorced, and have no child [seed/ZERA], …
(Ruth 4:12) And let thy house be like the house of Pharez, whom Tamar bare unto Judah, of the seed/ZERA which YAHWEH shall give thee of this young woman.
(1 Sam 2:20) And Eli blessed Elkanah and his wife, and said, YAHWEH give thee seed/ZERA of this woman …
RR,
The verses are true. God must be true even if every man is proven to be a liar. One verse being true does not make another verse false.The problem is in their interpretation. It is you who are denying true doctrines and rejecting scripture without explanation. You have got hung up on a false premise about seeds and geneology and it has caused you to reject scripture. It should be the other way around.
Because you cannot seem to be able grasp simple concepts you risk your faith.
One verse in the word says that 'those who are not with you are against you '. Another says 'those who are not against you are with you.'
On the surface it appears that there is a conflict between these statements and one must be wrong. But if you look at the context the first relates to the relationships among the disciples where loyalty is paramount. The second relates to the relationship between those disciples and the world where men are blessed for not opposing the gospel. There is always a deeper level of understanding to explain apparent scriptural confliucts God is not a God of confusion but of peace.
The more popular path is not the safest as you know from Mt 7. Those on the right path are fewer but you are not the only one and help is always at hand if you are patient.
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