Who is this Jesus?

[Sultan]

Quote (david @ Jan. 21 2006,21:05)

Jesus’ Prehuman Existence Jesus testified that he had a prehuman existence. He said: “No man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man.” (John 3:13) Jesus also stated: “I am the living bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and, for a fact, the bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.”—John 6:51. That Jesus was alive before coming to the earth is clear from his words: “Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.” (John 8:58) Abraham lived from 2018 to 1843 B.C.E., whereas Jesus’ human life ran from 2 B.C.E. to 33 C.E. Just before his death, Jesus prayed: “Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.”—John 17:5. Jesus’ followers gave similar testimony. The apostle John wrote: “In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. . . . So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of undeserved kindness and truth.” (John 1:1, 3, 14) Yes, “the Word became flesh” as the man Jesus Christ. Alluding to Jesus’ prehuman existence, the apostle Paul wrote: “Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men.” (Philippians 2:5-7) Paul called Jesus “the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all other things were created.”—Colossians 1:13-16. Here is where I think there is some confusing and differing ideas about Jesus: Was Jesus Divine on Earth? The Scriptures make it clear that Jesus was entirely human from his birth until his death. John did not say that the Word was merely clothed with flesh. He “became flesh” and was not part flesh and part God. If Jesus had been human and divine at the same time, it could not have been said that he had been “made a little lower than angels.”—Hebrews 2:9; Psalm 8:4, 5. If Jesus had been both God and man when on the earth, why did he repeatedly pray to Jehovah? Paul wrote: “In the days of his flesh Christ offered up supplications and also petitions to the One who was able to save him out of death, with strong outcries and tears, and he was favorably heard for his godly fear.”—Hebrews 5:7. That Jesus was not partly a spirit when on the earth is proved by Peter’s statement that Christ was “put to death in the flesh, but . . . made alive in the spirit.” (1 Peter 3:18) Only because Jesus was wholly human could he have experienced what imperfect people experience and thus become a sympathetic high priest. Wrote Paul: “We have as high priest, not one who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has been tested in all respects like ourselves, but without sin.”—Hebrews 4:15. As “the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world,” Jesus “gave himself a corresponding ransom for all.” (John 1:29; 1 Timothy 2:6) In that way, Jesus bought back exactly what Adam had lost—perfect, eternal human life. Since God’s justice required ‘soul for soul,’ Jesus thus had to be what Adam was originally—a perfect human, not a God-man.—Deuteronomy 19:21; 1 Corinthians 15:22. But do not Jesus’ miracles prove that he was a God-man? No, for Moses, Elijah, Elisha, the apostles Peter and Paul, and others performed miracles without being God-men. (Exodus 14:15-31; 1 Kings 18:18-40; 2 Kings 4:17-37; Acts 9:36-42; 19:11, 12) Like them, Jesus was a human who performed miracles with God-given power.—Luke 11:14-19. Jesus’ True Position Those who claim that God took on human existence as a God-man should note that the Bible does not even hint that Jesus viewed himself in such a way. Rather, it consistently shows that Jesus has always been inferior to his Father. When on the earth, Jesus never claimed to be more than the Son of God. Moreover, Christ said: “The Father is greater than I am.”—John 14:28. For those who say “You aren't a Christian if you don't believe in the trinity,” I say to them what Paul also said: “You belong to Christ; Christ, in turn, belongs to God.” (1 Corinthians 3:23) Indeed, even as Christians belong to their Master, Jesus Christ, so he belongs to his Head, Jehovah God. These were just some interesting thoughts that for the most part I haven't really seen on here. dave

David,
The apostle John did not write the Word was a god. The New World translation says that. Which of course is polytheism. Two gods in heaven at the same time. The Bible says in Col. 2:9,” For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form.”. The scriptures testify of Christ being all the fulness of diety in Bodily form.

[Is 1:18]

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I wonder if you can produce one verse in the Bible that unambigiously states that God is one person. Adam Pastor,Jan. 19 2006,13:57: You kidding right?

Nope.

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Here is a few because you have got to be kidding me …

No, I'm absolutely not kidding. It was a serious question Adam Pastor.

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(1 Cor 8:4)  … and that there is none other God but one. (1 Cor 8:6)  But to us there is but one God, the Father … (Gal 3:20)  Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. (1 Tim 2:5)  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (Mal 2:10)  Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? … (John 17:3)  And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. (2 Ki 19:15)  And Hezekiah prayed before YAHWEH, and said, O YAHWEH God of Israel, which dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; thou hast made heaven and earth.

Well……….? Where is the verse that unambigiously states that God is one person. I don't see it. Some of them appear to infer this, but I was after an explicit statement that God is one person…..shouldn't be too hard to find one…..right?

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If one doesn't know the meaning of the words one, only & alone; in these contexts to mean one person … Then I don't know what more can be said, except check a dictionary!!

Give me a single verse that explicitly states this, and I will believe you.

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Told him he was NOT far from the Kingdom of GOD; are you saying that Jesus is telling a scribe who got him wrong both personally & ontologically to coin your phrase; that he is NOT far from the Kingdom of GOD![/b] PLEASSEEEEEE

The phrase “not far from the Kingdom of God” does not equate to “everything you said was 100% theologically correct!” Adam, now does it. Nor does “answered discreetly”. In actual fact he was not far from the kingdom of God……I wonder if that is Herbrew vernacular for “close but no cigar!

Anyway….i'm sure you get my point.

[david]

Hey Sultan, how are you?

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David, The apostle John did not write the Word was a god. The New World translation says that. Which of course is polytheism. Two gods in heaven at the same time. The Bible says in Col. 2:9,” For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form.”. The scriptures testify of Christ being all the fulness of diety in Bodily form.

Two gods in heaven at the same time? Polytheism? Weren't the angels in heaven refered to as “gods?” Yes. If the angels can be called “gods” (meaning “mighty ones,”) then certainly it is right for Jesus to be called a god, or as in Isaiah, Mighty God. But there is only one who is ever called “Almighty God,” only one who is ever called ALL mighty.

The Bible says there are “many gods.” (1 cor 8:5)
Of course, “there is actually to us one God.” (1 cor 8:6)
There is only one who is called “ALMIGHTY God,” Jehovah.
JOHN 17:3
“This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the ONLY TRUE God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.”

On COLOSSIANS 2:9:
KJ reads: “In him [Christ] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead [Greek, the·o´te·tos] bodily.” (A similar thought is conveyed by the renderings in NE, RS, JB, NAB, Dy.) However, NW reads: “It is in him that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily.” (AT, We, and CKW read “God’s nature,” instead of “Godhead.” Compare 2 Peter 1:4.)

Admittedly, not everyone offers the same interpretation of Colossians 2:9. But what is in agreement with the rest of the inspired letter to the Colossians? Did Christ have in himself something that is his because he is God, part of a Trinity? Or is “the fullness” that dwells in him something that became his because of the decision of someone else? Colossians 1:19 (KJ, Dy) says that all fullness dwelt in Christ because it “pleased the Father” for this to be the case. NE says it was “by God’s own choice.”

Consider the immediate context of Colossians 2:9: In verse 8, readers are warned against being misled by those who advocate philosophy and human traditions. They are also told that in Christ “are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge” and are urged to “live in him” and to be “rooted and built up in him and established in the faith.” (Verses 3, 6, 7) It is in him, and not in the originators or the teachers of human philosophy, that a certain precious “fulness” dwells. Was the apostle Paul there saying that the “fulness” that was in Christ made Christ God himself? Not according to Colossians 3:1, where Christ is said to be “seated at the right hand of God.”—See KJ, Dy, TEV, NAB.

According to Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon, the·o´tes (the nominative form, from which the·o´te·tos is derived) means “divinity, divine nature.” (Oxford, 1968, p. 792) Being truly “divinity,” or of “divine nature,” does not make Jesus as the Son of God coequal and coeternal with the Father, any more than the fact that all humans share “humanity” or “human nature” makes them coequal or all the same age.

david.

Oh, sultan, you did offer Col 2:9, but you didn't really mention any of my points that you apparently disagree with:

Was Jesus Divine on Earth?
The Scriptures make it clear that Jesus was entirely human from his birth until his death. John did not say that the Word was merely clothed with flesh. He “became flesh” and was not part flesh and part God. If Jesus had been human and divine at the same time, it could not have been said that he had been “made a little lower than angels.”—Hebrews 2:9; Psalm 8:4, 5.

If Jesus had been both God and man when on the earth, why did he repeatedly pray to Jehovah? Paul wrote: “In the days of his flesh Christ offered up supplications and also petitions to the One who was able to save him out of death, with strong outcries and tears, and he was favorably heard for his godly fear.”—Hebrews 5:7.

That Jesus was not partly a spirit when on the earth is proved by Peter’s statement that Christ was “put to death in the flesh, but . . . made alive in the spirit.” (1 Peter 3:18) Only because Jesus was wholly human could he have experienced what imperfect people experience and thus become a sympathetic high priest. Wrote Paul: “We have as high priest, not one who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has been tested in all respects like ourselves, but without sin.”—Hebrews 4:15.

As “the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world,” Jesus “gave himself a corresponding ransom for all.” (John 1:29; 1 Timothy 2:6) In that way, Jesus bought back exactly what Adam had lost—perfect, eternal human life. Since God’s justice required ‘soul for soul,’ Jesus thus had to be what Adam was originally—a perfect human, not a God-man.—Deuteronomy 19:21; 1 Corinthians 15:22.

[Is 1:18]

Quote (heaven @ Jan. 21 2006,05:48)

Soxan has been banned from the Heaven Net Forum. He has nothing good to say and only pulls people down.

Inevitable….sadly.

Father God bless my friend Soxan. Help him grow in the knowledge of your grace and love. Fill him with your awesome spirit so he might shine a bright light in this dark world. Amen.

Be well Soxan.

[david]

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Quote (1 Cor 8:4) … and that there is none other God but one. (1 Cor 8:6) But to us there is but one God, the Father … (Gal 3:20) Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. (1 Tim 2:5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (Mal 2:10) Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? … (John 17:3) And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. (2 Ki 19:15) And Hezekiah prayed before YAHWEH, and said, O YAHWEH God of Israel, which dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; thou hast made heaven and earth. Well……….? Where is the verse that unambigiously states that God is one person. I don't see it. Some of them appear to infer this, but I was after an explicit statement that God is one person…..shouldn't be too hard to find one…..right?

Since many consider the trinity doctrine to be the fundamental doctrine of Christianity you would think we'd find some scritpures with the number 3 in them. You'd think we'd find phrases like:
'God is three.'
'The triune God,'
etc.
Yet, I really don't see scriptures with the number 3 in them. I do see lots with the number 1. And I think those scriptures quoted are pretty clear with the number one.

david.

[Adam Pastor]

Well Is 1:18, below is a couple of links I left for you to read at your pleasure, concerning Echad

As for your last comments … nothing more I can add.
Except to say that

GOD declares in the Scriptures He is ONE
The Scriptures declare that YAHWEH alone is GOD, that there was no GOD besides him, and that He has no equal.

Jesus confirms the Shema (Deut 6:4) and declares that the Father is The Only True GOD

If the Scriptures said once … there is ONE GOD … that should of been enough to convince the readers.
Yet, time & time again, the Scriptures declare the Oneness of GOD … that He alone is GOD, that there is one GOD.

Concerning inferences … as one writer states there is the evidence of …

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thousands of singular personal pronouns, which tell us in no uncertain terms that God is a single Person. It really is not difficult to understand the function of a singular personal pronoun. It describes a single person or thing. God is a “Who” and not a “What.” … Thousands upon thousands of times in the Bible (someone has calculated over 11,000 times), God is described by personal pronouns in the singular (I, me, you, he, him). These pronouns in all languages describe single persons, not three persons. There are thus thousands of verses which tell us that the “only true God” (John 17:3; John 5:44, “the One who alone is God”) is One Person, not three. … If this evidence, plus repeated singular pronouns, cannot restrict God to one Person, what evidence could? The whole fabric of intelligent discourse breaks down.

Nuff said!!!

Quote (Adam Pastor @ Jan. 20 2006,11:23)

Greetings All … For more info, on Echad ( & Elohim) I have added two articles that deal with this issue See Mathematics Gone Mad: When One is Supposed to Mean Three and Elohim and Echad Enjoy!

[Sultan]

David,
You say alot, but yet not much. The Bible says that in the beginning the Word was with God. It does not say this about angels or anyone else refered to as a god. So if the Word was with God and was a god as your translation erroniously translates it That's two Gods in heaven in the beginning. Polytheism!(we can discuss this further later, but let's stick to the issue at hand for now)

Christ was more than just a man, and that's why I quoted Col 2:9 “For in Him all thefullness of Deity dwells in bodily form” The text says all the fulness of deity in bodily form. I never said that Jesus being divine made Him co-equal or co-eternal. Are you trying to place words in my mouth? Let me save you some time by letting you know I am not a trinitarian. The Bible also states,” Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 2 Cor. 5:18-19)
The text says not only was God reconciling us through Christ, but also that God was in Christ.
David Jesus has a question for you. ” Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves. (John 14:10-11)
Jesus says, “The Father that dwells in Him.” He said this while still on Earth David. It would appear David that you do not believe the Bible, but only what man teaches you through the JW doctrine. The fact that Jesus in not the Father is obvious throughout scripture, but your point that Jesus was just a man is not correct.

[Sammo]

Hi everyone

The following is the full text of the Athanasian Creed:

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Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the Catholic Faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity. Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost is all One, the Glory Equal, the Majesty Co-Eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father Uncreate, the Son Uncreate, and the Holy Ghost Uncreate. The Father Incomprehensible, the Son Incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost Incomprehensible. The Father Eternal, the Son Eternal, and the Holy Ghost Etneral and yet they are not Three Eternals but One Eternal. As also there are not Three Uncreated, nor Three Incomprehensibles, but One Uncreated, and One Uncomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not Three Almighties but One Almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not Three Gods, but One God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not Three Lords but One Lord. For, like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, so are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion to say, there be Three Gods or Three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father, and of the Son neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. So there is One Father, not Three Fathers; one Son, not Three Sons; One Holy Ghost, not Three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is afore or after Other, None is greater or less than Another, but the whole Three Persons are Co-eternal together, and Co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity is Trinity, and the Trinity is Unity is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity. Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting Salvation, that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man. God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the substance of His mother, born into the world. Perfect God and Perfect Man, of a reasonable Soul and human Flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His Manhood. Who, although He be God and Man, yet He is not two, but One Christ. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into Flesh, but by taking of the Manhood into God. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by Unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one Man, so God and Man is one Christ. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into Hell, rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into Heaven, He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty, from whence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting, and they that have done evil into everlasting fire. This is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.

To me, the bottom line is this: is the trinity ever taught in the Bible?

People who believe in the trinity often turn to about 5-10 particular quotes that seem to corroborate that Jesus was God. But each of these verses falls cataclysmically short of actually teaching the trinity, like, say the Athanasian Creed does.

For instance, let's say that John 1:1 does say that Jesus is God – difficulties that that would cause with other Bible passages aside. Would John 1:1 teach that “there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost is all One, the Glory Equal, the Majesty Co-Eternal”?

No, it wouldn't. It wouldn't even come close – and we would find exactly the same for every other trinitarian proof text. The bottom line is this: nowhere does the Bible teach the trinity.

Thought to ponder: if you gave someone a Bible for the first time who had never heard of Christianity, could you possibly imagine that they would come to believe the trinity? Or even consider that there might possibly be such a thing? If the scriptures really are able to make us “wise unto salvation through faith” – then what does that tell us?

Please see http://www.thechristadelphians.org/forums/index.php?showforum=16 for a comprehensive set of articles that deal one by one with all the major trinitiarian verses.

If anyone's interested in where I'm coming from with this, a summary of my beliefs about Jesus can be found on this page here: http://www.theplan.co.nz/beliefs.html

God bless everyone
Sam

[Sultan]

Quote (Sammo @ Jan. 23 2006,18:17)

Hi everyone The following is the full text of the Athanasian Creed: Quote Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the Catholic Faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity. Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost is all One, the Glory Equal, the Majesty Co-Eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father Uncreate, the Son Uncreate, and the Holy Ghost Uncreate. The Father Incomprehensible, the Son Incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost Incomprehensible. The Father Eternal, the Son Eternal, and the Holy Ghost Etneral and yet they are not Three Eternals but One Eternal. As also there are not Three Uncreated, nor Three Incomprehensibles, but One Uncreated, and One Uncomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not Three Almighties but One Almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not Three Gods, but One God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not Three Lords but One Lord. For, like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, so are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion to say, there be Three Gods or Three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father, and of the Son neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. So there is One Father, not Three Fathers; one Son, not Three Sons; One Holy Ghost, not Three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is afore or after Other, None is greater or less than Another, but the whole Three Persons are Co-eternal together, and Co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity is Trinity, and the Trinity is Unity is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity. Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting Salvation, that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man. God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the substance of His mother, born into the world. Perfect God and Perfect Man, of a reasonable Soul and human Flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His Manhood. Who, although He be God and Man, yet He is not two, but One Christ. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into Flesh, but by taking of the Manhood into God. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by Unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one Man, so God and Man is one Christ. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into Hell, rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into Heaven, He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty, from whence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting, and they that have done evil into everlasting fire. This is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved. To me, the bottom line is this: is the trinity ever taught in the Bible? People who believe in the trinity often turn to about 5-10 particular quotes that seem to corroborate that Jesus was God. But each of these verses falls cataclysmically short of actually teaching the trinity, like, say the Athanasian Creed does. For instance, let's say that John 1:1 does say that Jesus is God – difficulties that that would cause with other Bible passages aside. Would John 1:1 teach that “there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost is all One, the Glory Equal, the Majesty Co-Eternal”? No, it wouldn't. It wouldn't even come close – and we would find exactly the same for every other trinitarian proof text. The bottom line is this: nowhere does the Bible teach the trinity. Thought to ponder: if you gave someone a Bible for the first time who had never heard of Christianity, could you possibly imagine that they would come to believe the trinity? Or even consider that there might possibly be such a thing? If the scriptures really are able to make us “wise unto salvation through faith” – then what does that tell us? Please see http://www.thechristadelphians.org/forums/index.php?showforum=16 for a comprehensive set of articles that deal one by one with all the major trinitiarian verses. If anyone's interested in where I'm coming from with this, a summary of my beliefs about Jesus can be found on this page here: http://www.theplan.co.nz/beliefs.html God bless everyone Sam

Hello Sammo,
I have studied with Christadelphians before, and they have conflicting view on whether Jesus was divine of not. I take it that you probably didn't read all 120 pages of posts here, but most of us here are not trinitarians so that is not an issue. The issue at hand is the nature of Christ. We have to try and use the Bible as a whole and not just the parts that agree with what we already believe. Concerning the verse in my above post, They teach that Jesus was more than just a man. I wont go beyond what is written, but I believe what is written.

[Sultan]

Wow. If I don't believe the Trinity I can't be saved. To think all this time I thought I was okay.

[david]

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David, You say alot, but yet not much. The Bible says that in the beginning the Word was with God. It does not say this about angels or anyone else refered to as a god. So if the Word was with God and was a god as your translation erroniously translates it That's two Gods in heaven in the beginning. Polytheism!(we can discuss this further later, but let's stick to the issue at hand for now)

It may not say that the angels were with Jehovah God in heaven, but the angels were referred to as “gods.” Where are the angels Sultan? 1 Cor 8:5 should help you to understand this. The word “god” basically means “mighty one.” That's what it means. Satan is described as a “god” at 2 cor 4:4 I believe. He is a mighty one. Even the judges on earth were called “gods” or mighty ones, and truly in some sense, they were.

BUT ONLY ONE IN THE BIBLE IS EVERY DESCRIBED AS “ALMIGHTY.” This is why John 17:3 could speak of “the only TRUE God,” and then mention Jesus separately in that scripture who can certainly also be described as mighty.

1 CORINTHIANS 8:5-6
“For even though there are those who are called “gods,” whether in HEAVEN or on earth, just as there are MANY “gods” and many “lords,” THERE IS ACTUALLY TO US ONE GOD the FATHER, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.”

I think these scriptures are very clear. When you understand the meaning of the word “god,” things become easier to understand.

As you say: “That's two god's in heaven. Polytheism.” Hmmm. I count a lot more than two. How many angels are there? Where do they reside? But how many true gods does the Bible say there are? (If unsure, check John 17:3 and 1 Cor 8:6–“the ONLY TRUE God,” even though many called gods, “ACTUALLY TO US ONE GOD THE FATHER.”)

DAVID.

[david]

The fact that Jehovah is referred to as the only true God, doesn't make Jesus a false god of course. But compared to Jehovah God, how mighty are the judges of the earth, the angels, Satan, or even Jehovah's Son, Jesus? Only Jehovah is mighty compared to all others. Only Jehovah is called Almighty in the Bible and so the Bible writers could say that there is only one true God.

david.

[david]

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Christ was more than just a man, and that's why I quoted Col 2:9 “For in Him all thefullness of Deity dwells in bodily form” The text says all the fulness of deity in bodily form.

Yes, Sultan, but what does this scripture mean in light of the other scriptures I provided that you refuse or are unable to comment on?

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David Jesus has a question for you. ” Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves. (John 14:10-11) Jesus says, “The Father that dwells in Him.” He said this while still on Earth David. It would appear David that you do not believe the Bible,

No Sultan. I believe the Bible. But I look at all the Bible, related scriptures too.

Here's one:
John 17:21 (New International Version)
“that all of them may be one, Father, JUST AS you are in me and I am in you. May THEY ALSO BE IN US so that the world may believe that you have sent me.”
So when Jesus said: “Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in me,” then it should be clear from Jesus' other statement at John 17:21 that “JUST AS” THE Father is in Jesus and Jesus in the Father, (or just as they are in union), JUST AS they are, “may they [his followers] also be in us…”

hmmmm.
The scripture was talking about them all “being one,” not literally one, but one in purpose. In other words, they were in union with one another.

When we compare other similar scriptures, such as this very related scripture, it is clear that Jesus was talking about the Father and Jesus being one in spirit, in aim, in purpose, just as his disciples were to be.

In what sense are Jesus' followers in Jesus and God? In what sense are they one, just as the Father and Son are one?

Answer: They are in union with each other.

In answer to Jesus question, now that we properly understand it in light of his other words, my answer is “yes.”

David

[david]

Was Jesus Divine on Earth?

The Scriptures make it clear that Jesus was entirely human from his birth until his death. John did not say that the Word was merely clothed with flesh. He “became flesh” and was not part flesh and part God. If Jesus had been human and divine at the same time, it could not have been said that he had been “made a little lower than angels.”—Hebrews 2:9; Psalm 8:4, 5.

If Jesus had been both God and man when on the earth, why did he repeatedly pray to Jehovah? Paul wrote: “In the days of his flesh Christ offered up supplications and also petitions to the One who was able to save him out of death, with strong outcries and tears, and he was favorably heard for his godly fear.”—Hebrews 5:7.

That Jesus was not partly a spirit when on the earth is proved by Peter’s statement that Christ was “put to death in the flesh, but . . . made alive in the spirit.” (1 Peter 3:18) Only because Jesus was wholly human could he have experienced what imperfect people experience and thus become a sympathetic high priest. Wrote Paul: “We have as high priest, not one who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has been tested in all respects like ourselves, but without sin.”—Hebrews 4:15.

As “the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world,” Jesus “gave himself a corresponding ransom for all.” (John 1:29; 1 Timothy 2:6) In that way, Jesus bought back exactly what Adam had lost—perfect, eternal human life. Since God’s justice required ‘soul for soul,’ Jesus thus had to be what Adam was originally—a perfect human, not a God-man.—Deuteronomy 19:21; 1 Corinthians 15:22.

But do not Jesus’ miracles prove that he was a God-man? No, for Moses, Elijah, Elisha, the apostles Peter and Paul, and others performed miracles without being God-men. (Exodus 14:15-31; 1 Kings 18:18-40; 2 Kings 4:17-37; Acts 9:36-42; 19:11, 12) Like them, Jesus was a human who performed miracles with God-given power.—Luke 11:14-19.

****

Above, Sultan said the following:

Quote

We have to try and use the Bible as a whole and not just the parts that agree with what we already believe.

Sultan, I believe I've addressed everything you've said. I would like now to discuss these points which seem to conflict with what you believe, and which you don't seem to see or want to discuss.

Thanks

david.

[Sultan]

Quote (david @ Jan. 24 2006,00:44)

Quote David, You say alot, but yet not much. The Bible says that in the beginning the Word was with God. It does not say this about angels or anyone else refered to as a god. So if the Word was with God and was a god as your translation erroniously translates it That's two Gods in heaven in the beginning. Polytheism!(we can discuss this further later, but let's stick to the issue at hand for now) It may not say that the angels were with Jehovah God in heaven, but the angels were referred to as “gods.” Where are the angels Sultan? 1 Cor 8:5 should help you to understand this. The word “god” basically means “mighty one.” That's what it means. Satan is described as a “god” at 2 cor 4:4 I believe. He is a mighty one. Even the judges on earth were called “gods” or mighty ones, and truly in some sense, they were. BUT ONLY ONE IN THE BIBLE IS EVERY DESCRIBED AS “ALMIGHTY.” This is why John 17:3 could speak of “the only TRUE God,” and then mention Jesus separately in that scripture who can certainly also be described as mighty. 1 CORINTHIANS 8:5-6 “For even though there are those who are called “gods,” whether in HEAVEN or on earth, just as there are MANY “gods” and many “lords,” THERE IS ACTUALLY TO US ONE GOD the FATHER, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.” I think these scriptures are very clear. When you understand the meaning of the word “god,” things become easier to understand. As you say: “That's two god's in heaven. Polytheism.” Hmmm. I count a lot more than two. How many angels are there? Where do they reside? But how many true gods does the Bible say there are? (If unsure, check John 17:3 and 1 Cor 8:6–“the ONLY TRUE God,” even though many called gods, “ACTUALLY TO US ONE GOD THE FATHER.”) DAVID.

David,
You are still avoiding the point. God used the Word to create the angels “For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.( Col 1:16-71).. It's not a question of the term god. It is an issue of your erroneous translation that states the Word was a god. How many gods does that make David? Jehovah + a god= 2 gods. I guess you must kinda feel like a trinitarian now trying to justify how two is not two. The scripture says that the Word was God. This of course simply explains the nature of the Word that it is divine. It does not say the Word was the Father. So once again your implication there against me is in error. John 1:1 says that the Word was with God. Again the scripture showing the position of the Word verses all of the other creation. The Word had a position higher than that which the Word was used to create. My point. When John 1:1 is properly interpreted the term”the Word was God”, simply defines the fact that the Word was divine, but when it's changed to a god the whole context changes. For instance using the definition of mighty one. Many men were mighty, but not divine, but in the context of John 1, the issue is more than just character it is an issue of the esscence of the Logos.

[Sultan]

Quote (david @ Jan. 24 2006,01:08)

Quote Christ was more than just a man, and that's why I quoted Col 2:9 “For in Him all thefullness of Deity dwells in bodily form” The text says all the fulness of deity in bodily form. Yes, Sultan, but what does this scripture mean in light of the other scriptures I provided that you refuse or are unable to comment on? Quote David Jesus has a question for you. ” Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves. (John 14:10-11) Jesus says, “The Father that dwells in Him.” He said this while still on Earth David. It would appear David that you do not believe the Bible, No Sultan. I believe the Bible. But I look at all the Bible, related scriptures too. Here's one: John 17:21 (New International Version) “that all of them may be one, Father, JUST AS you are in me and I am in you. May THEY ALSO BE IN US so that the world may believe that you have sent me.” So when Jesus said: “Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in me,” then it should be clear from Jesus' other statement at John 17:21 that “JUST AS” THE Father is in Jesus and Jesus in the Father, (or just as they are in union), JUST AS they are, “may they [his followers] also be in us…” hmmmm. The scripture was talking about them all “being one,” not literally one, but one in purpose. In other words, they were in union with one another. When we compare other similar scriptures, such as this very related scripture, it is clear that Jesus was talking about the Father and Jesus being one in spirit, in aim, in purpose, just as his disciples were to be. In what sense are Jesus' followers in Jesus and God? In what sense are they one, just as the Father and Son are one? Answer: They are in union with each other. In answer to Jesus question, now that we properly understand it in light of his other words, my answer is “yes.” David

David,
I noticed that you left out what the text says. Instead of running to find other scriptures to contradict, why don't you first us proper exegesis and answer the text. I noticed that you avoid the main issue and run to grab texts you are more familiar with. Now let's try the same scriptures again that you avoided. John 14:10 ” Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.” Notice the Word dwells strongs #3306 to stay (in a given place,state,relation,or expectancy). Jesus said the Father that dwells in me. Also 2 Cor. 5:18-19 “Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation”.
Notice God was in Christ David. Did you see that? Also Col.2:9 “For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form”. Fullness of diety David. Did you see that?
All the scriptures you quoted David are not disproving these texts. I don't comment on them because they are not related. Nowhere in the texts that I gave does it say anything about oneness. So that is not the issue. The issue is was Jesus also divine while on earth. We know He was a man, but was He divine? The Bible says yes, David says no. Who should I believe, you be the judge.

[Sultan]

Quote (david @ Jan. 24 2006,01:13)

Was Jesus Divine on Earth? The Scriptures make it clear that Jesus was entirely human from his birth until his death. John did not say that the Word was merely clothed with flesh. He “became flesh” and was not part flesh and part God. If Jesus had been both God and man when on the earth, why did he repeatedly pray to Jehovah? Paul wrote: “In the days of his flesh Christ offered up supplications and also petitions to the One who was able to save him out of death, with strong outcries and tears, and he was favorably heard for his godly fear.”—Hebrews 5:7. That Jesus was not partly a spirit when on the earth is proved by Peter’s statement that Christ was “put to death in the flesh, but . . . made alive in the spirit.” (1 Peter 3:18) Only because Jesus was wholly human could he have experienced what imperfect people experience and thus become a sympathetic high priest. Wrote Paul: “We have as high priest, not one who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has been tested in all respects like ourselves, but without sin.”—Hebrews 4:15. As “the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world,” Jesus “gave himself a corresponding ransom for all.” (John 1:29; 1 Timothy 2:6) In that way, Jesus bought back exactly what Adam had lost—perfect, eternal human life. Since God’s justice required ‘soul for soul,’ Jesus thus had to be what Adam was originally—a perfect human, not a God-man.—Deuteronomy 19:21; 1 Corinthians 15:22. But do not Jesus’ miracles prove that he was a God-man? No, for Moses, Elijah, Elisha, the apostles Peter and Paul, and others performed miracles without being God-men. (Exodus 14:15-31; 1 Kings 18:18-40; 2 Kings 4:17-37; Acts 9:36-42; 19:11, 12) Like them, Jesus was a human who performed miracles with God-given power.—Luke 11:14-19. **** Above, Sultan said the following: Quote We have to try and use the Bible as a whole and not just the parts that agree with what we already believe. Sultan, I believe I've addressed everything you've said. I would like now to discuss these points which seem to conflict with what you believe, and which you don't seem to see or want to discuss. Thanks david.

I have already answered this in my previous post, but I will say that there is alot more rationalization here than scripture.

Quote

“If Jesus had been human and divine at the same time, it could not have been said that he had been “made a little lower than angels.”—Hebrews 2:9; Psalm 8:4, 5.”

This is your opinion David.

Quote

If Jesus had been both God and man when on the earth, why did he repeatedly pray to Jehovah? Paul wrote: “In the days of his flesh Christ offered up supplications and also petitions to the One who was able to save him out of death, with strong outcries and tears, and he was favorably heard for his godly fear.”—Hebrews 5:7.

The issue is not was Jesus God the Father. The issue is was Jesus divine. Again another diversion from the topic.

Quote

That Jesus was not partly a spirit when on the earth is proved by Peter’s statement that Christ was “put to death in the flesh, but . . . made alive in the spirit.” (1 Peter 3:18) Only because Jesus was wholly human could he have experienced what imperfect people experience and thus become a sympathetic high priest. Wrote Paul: “We have as high priest, not one who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has been tested in all respects like ourselves, but without sin.”—Hebrews 4:15.

. Again mere opinion. The Bible testifies that man is soul, body,and spirit.Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thes. 5:23) Among those who are disobedient in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, (Eph. 2:2). Again though the issue is was Christ divine? No of these rationalizations answer the texts I've given. Why don't you place each text alone in seperate posts and show me that the Bible means something else. It seems to me that you are not concerned with truth, but just being right. Which I can understand becaus if I trusted a religious system and then found error, I would have to change, and change is painful. Can you deny that the texts (John 14:10, Col. 2:9, and 2 Cor.518-19) testify to Jesus being divne. I'll await your next mile long post to answer this simple question.

[WhatIsTrue]

Sultan,

I am confused as to your beliefs about Messiah.

Are you saying that Yahshua is a manifistation of the Almighty?  Or, are you saying that Yahshua is a separate, distinct “divine being” who existed in the beginning with YHWH?

It sounds to me like you believe there were two “divine” beings in the beginning, but I am unsure.

(As a secondary issue, how are you defining “divine”?  Do you mean “spiritual beings”, “heavenly beings”, or “god beings”?)

[Bastian]

Jesus had his Father’s nature. That did not make him a divine being. Jesus Christ had a perfect human nature the way God intended. Jesus truly did reflect a man made in the image of God. We humans need to make Jesus something he is not. It is difficult for us to believe that a human being could be perfect because of our own shortcomings, and imperfections. We have the nature of the first Adam whom did not remain sinless.

If Jesus was born a divinity, or divine, I am not sure how you are using the term. He would not have had to receive the anointing of the Holy Spirit.

John 14:10

Do you believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own initiative, but the Father abiding in me does His works.
Then he goes on to say if you do not believe that about me, then in the least believe because of the works themselves.
Truly, I say to you he who believes in me the works I do he will do also, and greater works then these he will do.

Jesus had the ability to sin. God, not he himself, performed his miracles. That makes him one hundred percent human.

Man as the image bearer of God finds complete fulfillment it the glorification of Christ.

All who believe in him will one day be made like him.

Isaiah 53:10

He will see his offspring and prolong his days.

Their will be enmity between your seed, and her seed.

He will bear much fruit after his kind.

The last Adam became a live giving spirit after his resurrection and glorification.

The book of Hebrews speaks of the Christ in the present tense.

Now he is the exact image of God.

Colossians
1:15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

Adam made from the dust of the ground was the first born of the old creation.

Jesus the Christ the second Adam at his resurrection became the first born of the new creation.

Was Jesus a man? Yes, a unique man, there was only one other like him, and he failed were our Lord succeeded. Is he still a mere man? Hardly, He is highly exalted. On the earth, and in the Heavens, only the Almighty Himself does not bow the knee to our Lord, and Savior Jesus the Christ.

[Sultan]

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 24 2006,12:16)

Sultan, I am confused as to your beliefs about Messiah. Are you saying that Yahshua is a manifistation of the Almighty? Or, are you saying that Yahshua is a separate, distinct “divine being” who existed in the beginning with YHWH? It sounds to me like you believe there were two “divine” beings in the beginning, but I am unsure. (As a secondary issue, how are you defining “divine”? Do you mean “spiritual beings”, “heavenly beings”, or “god beings”?)

Hello Whatistrue,
The scriptures testity that in the beginning there was God, His Word, and His spirit (Gen1:1 and John 1:1). I believe that. God's Word was just that His Logos. The living and spoken Word, that He used to create all things. No I do not believe that the Word was a distinct divine being. The Word proceeded from the Father. Just like our Words come from us. The scriptures tend to give the Word a personality for instance Isa.55:11 ” 11 So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth;It shall not return to Me void,But it shall accomplish what I please,And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it. The scriptures speak of God's Word accomplishing things. The Bible tells us that the Word is alive and powerful (Heb. 4:12), But the scriptures only testify of the Word being there in the beginning. I can only assume that before the beginning there was Just God the Father.
I do consider though that because Logos can also mean thought that the Word was still in existence in the mind of God. Because God is eternal He is not bound by time like us. So it really becomes difficult to truley speak of a time when the Word was in existence and when it wasn't.
NOw when you begin to talk about Yashua that's a different story. The text does not sazy that Yashua was in the beginning with God it says the Word. Yes the Word became Yashua, but in the beginning there was no SOn of God standing on the right hand of the father.

Nevertheless the Word is the expression of God. It is how God communicates Himself to us. How do we know God. His creation (ps.19,Romans1), which was created through His Word,and we know Him by His written Word, and because of Jesus the Word made flesh.

The Bible tells us in the scriptures I already mentioned that God was in Christ, or in Him dwelt deity or in John 14:10 the Father dwelt in Christ. The Bible also tells us that those who are saved, that Christ lives in us (Gal. 2:20). So it is not a new thing to speak of God or the power of God or the Spirit of God living inside of man. The term deity in Col. 2:9 is defined as the “state of being God” (The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon). Obviosly God is a spirit so deity would be limited to a spiritual sense, but what is the difference between a spiritual being,heavenly being or god being? Are they not all spirit beings?

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