Who is this Jesus?

[NickHassan]

Hi k4c,
So strange that Michael appears by name so infrequently in the bible but some see him everywhere.

[Sultan]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 13 2005,15:01)

Hi k4c, So strange that Michael appears by name so infrequently in the bible but some see him everywhere.

Good point.

[NickHassan]

Quote (k4c @ Dec. 13 2005,19:58)

The Spirit of God wars against our spirit or sinful nature. Angels as well as man have a free will to worship and express the image of our Creator in how we live. But as you read the Bible you will find not all angels as well as man are obedient to the purpose for which we were created. God is Spirit and unseen. God manifests Himself by way of creation and by sharing Himself with His created beings. This is what is meant by being anointed.[/quote] quote] I'm prabably wasting my time sharing these things. God sent His Son from heaven to take on sinful flesh. I think you believe this. Who was His Son? According to the Scriptures, it's Michael. Hebrews 1:13 is not a rhetorical question. God has never said to an angel, sit at my right hand untill I make your enemises your footstool, but He also didn't say this to just any man. God was making a new man in Jesus from Michael. When Jesus was begotten (raised from the dead) He was not an angel but rather He was a flesh and blood man. It was at Jesus' resurrection when He was seated at the right hand of the Father. It was at this time when the Father said this to His Son. Hebrews10:12-13 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, then to wait until his enemies should be made a stool for his feet.

Hi k4c,
So when these words of Ps 2 were spoken to Christ was after his resurrection when he had a real flesh and blood body while before that he was the angel Michael though that is not written anywhere.
1Cor 15.50
“Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood CANNOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD”
So Jesus himself then cannot inherit the kingdom of God?
But wait. The previous verses say
“The second man is from heaven”
He does not then have a flesh and blood body but a heavenly body.

So when Jesus was on earth then before he died you say he was an angel?
That is odd. Scripture says he was a man[Acts 2.22-23], and a man like us in every way except sin[Heb 4.15].

As you have said men are different beings from angels.
we await the scripture that states that Jesus is Michael, or Gabriel, or the angel of the Lord. Just any proof would be fine.

I personally believe what he said about himself and no angel. Rather that he was the only begotten Son of God.

[k4c]

Quote (Sultan @ Dec. 13 2005,20:14)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 13 2005,15:01) Hi k4c, So strange that Michael appears by name so infrequently in the bible but some see him everywhere. Good point.

Mark 4:11-12 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

[NickHassan]

Quote (k4c @ Dec. 13 2005,20:43)

Quote (Sultan @ Dec. 13 2005,20:14) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 13 2005,15:01) Hi k4c, So strange that Michael appears by name so infrequently in the bible but some see him everywhere. Good point. Mark 4:11-12 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Hi k4c,
Are you suggesting that the 'truth' of Jesus being Michael is hidden in parable form? Which parable?

[k4c]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 13 2005,20:58)

Quote (k4c @ Dec. 13 2005,20:43) Quote (Sultan @ Dec. 13 2005,20:14) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 13 2005,15:01) Hi k4c, So strange that Michael appears by name so infrequently in the bible but some see him everywhere. Good point. Mark 4:11-12 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them. Hi k4c, Are you suggesting that the 'truth' of Jesus being Michael is hidden in parable form? Which parable?

I don't believe you are being true in your questions to me so I'm going to anwser just this one. When you truly come to want to know the truth about Michael and Jesus you will have to ask God and seek for yourself in His word to find the answer.

Matthew 21:33-44 “Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country. “Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit. “And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another. “Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them. “Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, `They will respect my son.' “But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, `This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.' “And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?'' They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.'' Jesus said to them, “Did you never read in the Scriptures: `The stone which the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone. This was the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes'? “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. “And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.''

May the Lord bless your studies,
John

[NickHassan]

Hi k4c,

Let ius look at the evidence together so far and interrogate scripture.

Was Michael a son of God? Possibly, even probably he may have been one among all those shown in Jb 1,2,38.
Can we be sure? No, because his name is not mentioned there in those verses.
Does scripture state that Michael is a son of God? No Scripture does not call Michael a son of God.
So should we teach that he is? No
Was Jesus a son of God?Yes. He alone, the Word of God, is called the beloved only begotten Son.
Is he ever called Michael? No
Was he ever called an angel? No
Is Michael called an angel? Yes, an archangel and one of the leading princes.
So if Michael is said to be an angel, and the Word of God never is, is it likely they are the same being? No
Is there is a being called the Prince of Princes? Yes
Was Michael ever  called the Prince of Princes? No
So it seems a being greater than he but less than God exists? Yes.
Is there strong circumstantial evidence Michael is THE Son of God? No.There is no evidence of any kind that he was.

Should we teach that Michael was the unique beloved only begotten Son then without further evidence?
No

Thank you. No further questions.

[k4c]

There is coming a time when Jesus returns with all His angelic host.

Matthew 25:31-32 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Who is the Captain of the heavenly host?

It's Michael the archangel the Angel of the LORD and Captain of the heavenly host.

Joshua 5:13-15 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the Lord am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant? And the captain of the Lord's host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

Revelation 12:7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought.

Jesus, with His voice, the voice of the archangel will shout and the dead shall rise. This will bring about a judgment like never before.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

All will give an account on that day.

Matthew 25:41-43 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

This will be a day when the dead rise out of the dust. Those who are written in the book of life will shine like the stars of heaven but the others, it will be a terrible day for them.

Who do you think brings this all about? Jesus does.

There is a prophecy in the book of Daniel that fortells this day and who brings it all about.

Daniel 12:1-4 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
“But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.''

Did you notice how God tells Daniel to shut up the book until the end, in other words, Michael and Jesus will be a mystery until the book is opened. Well, Jesus has opened the book to those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.

Revelation 5:1-5 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Isaiah 63:9 In all their affliction He was afflicted, and the Angel of His Presence saved them; in His love and in His pity He redeemed them; and He bore them and carried them all the days of old.

Exodus 23:20-22 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for My name is in him. But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.

There is so much more but I think it's time for me to kick the dust of my heels.

May the Lord bless you as you seek to know the truth,
John

[david]

Quote

Was Michael a son of God? Possibly, even probably he may have been one among all those shown in Jb 1,2,38. Can we be sure? No, because his name is not mentioned there in those verses. Does scripture state that Michael is a son of God? No Scripture does not call Michael a son of God. So should we teach that he is? No

Here's what scripture does actually say:
Michael is an angel, in fact THE archangel, or chief angel.
Are angels called “sons of God” in the Bible?

At Job 1:6, we find that expression and the reference is obviously to spirit sons of God assembled in God’s presence, among whom Satan, who had been “roving about in the earth,” also appeared. (Job 1:7; see also 2:1, 2.)

Again at Job 38:4-7 “the sons of God” who ‘shouted in applause’ when God ‘laid the cornerstone’ of the earth clearly were angelic sons and not humans descended from Adam (as yet not even created).

So, too, at Psalm 89:6 “the sons of God” are definitely heavenly creatures, not earthlings.

So, the expression “son's of God” is used Biblically with reference to angels.
Is Michael an angel Nick? Yes. Can he be called a son of God if he is an angel and angels are called sons of God? Common sense and logic says “yes.”

Quote

Was Jesus a son of God?Yes. He alone, the Word of God, is called the beloved only begotten Son.

Yes, no one is saying Michael is an ordinary angel. He is the chief, or head of the angels. He is THE archangel. He is the only one mentioned. He seems distinct, as does the only begotten son of God.
If Jesus is Michael and Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, then clearly he is a son of God, just as the angels are described.

Quote

Is he ever called Michael? No Was he ever called an angel? No

Well, that's what we're discussing, isn't it? What is true is that scripture applies certain things to Michael that are also applied to only Jesus.

Quote

Is there strong circumstantial evidence Michael is THE Son of God? No.There is no evidence of any kind that he was.

I'm quite certain you have previously said there is circumstantial evidence that Michael is Jesus, but always have said that this isn't good enough. There is definitely, without a doubt, circumstantial evidence that the two are the same. It's a question of how strong you think that evidence is and how strong your preconcieved ideas are.

david.

[david]

Nick, to say there is no circumstantial evidence is simply false.

WHO IS MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL?
Michael means “Who Is Like God?” The name evidently designates Michael as the one who takes the lead in upholding Jehovah’s sovereignty and destroying God’s enemies.
He is referred to as “the great prince who has charge of your [Daniel’s] people,” and as “the archangel.” (Dan. 10:13; 12:1; Jude 9, RS)

JESUS CALLS OUT WITH AN ARCHANGELS VOICE.
At 1 Thessalonians 4:16 (RS), the command of Jesus Christ for the resurrection to begin is described as “the archangel’s call,” and Jude 9 says that the archangel is Michael.
It is reasonable to conclude that only an archangel would call “with an archangel’s voice.” Would it be appropriate to liken Jesus’ commanding call to that of someone lesser in authority?
For example, a king is above a noble. If you have a king, someone in great power and he calls out something of importance, you wouldn’t say: ‘He called out with a nobles voice,’ unless the King was a also a noble. If the king wasn’t a noble, you would say: He called out with the voice of a king. To say he called out with a nobles voice would be to diminish him, unless he was both a noble and a king.
It is only logical, therefore, that the voice expressing this commanding call be described by a word that would not diminish or detract from the great authority that Christ Jesus now has as King of kings and Lord of lords. (Mt 28:18; Re 17:14)
If the designation “archangel” applied, not to Jesus Christ, but to other angels, then the reference to “an archangel’s voice” would not be appropriate. In that case it would be describing a voice of lesser authority than that of the Son of God.

“ARCHANGEL” IS NEVER FOUND IN PLURAL IN SCRIPTURE
Interestingly, the expression “archangel” is never found in the plural in the Scriptures, thus implying that there is only one. Hence, it is reasonable to conclude that Jehovah God has delegated to one, and only one, of his heavenly creatures full authority over all other angels.

WHO TAKES ACTION AGAINST THE SATAN, “RULER OF THIS WORLD”?
Revelation 12:7-12 says that Michael and his angels would war against Satan and hurl him and his wicked angels out of heaven in connection with the conferring of kingly authority on Christ. Jesus is later depicted as leading the armies of heaven in war against the nations of the world. (Rev. 19:11-16)
Is it not reasonable that Jesus would also be the one to take action against the one he described as “ruler of this world,” Satan the Devil? (John 12:31)
Daniel 12:1 (RS) associates the ‘standing up of Michael’ to act with authority with “a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time.” That would certainly fit the experience of the nations when Christ as heavenly executioner takes action against them.
So the evidence indicates that the Son of God was known as Michael before he came to earth and is known also by that name since his return to heaven where he resides as the glorified spirit Son of God.

WHO ELSE IS SPOKEN OF AS HAVING ANGELS UNDER SUBJECTION?
Aside from the Creator himself, only one faithful person is spoken of as having angels under subjection—namely, Jesus Christ. (Matthew 13:41; 16:27; 24:31) The apostle Paul made specific mention of “the Lord Jesus” and “his powerful angels.” (2 Thessalonians 1:7) And Peter described the resurrected Jesus by saying: “He is at God’s right hand, for he went his way to heaven; and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him.”—1 Peter 3:22.

JESUS IS COMMISSIONED TO DESTROY ALL THE NATIONS AT ARMAGEDON
There are also other correspondencies establishing that Michael is actually the Son of God. Daniel, after making the first reference to Michael (Da 10:13), recorded a prophecy reaching down to “the time of the end” (Da 11:40) and then stated: “And during that time Michael will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of [Daniel’s] people.” (Da 12:1) Michael’s ‘standing up’ was to be associated with “a time of distress such as has not been made to occur since there came to be a nation until that time.” (Da 12:1) In Daniel’s prophecy, ‘standing up’ frequently refers to the action of a king, either taking up his royal power or acting effectively in his capacity as king. (Da 11:2-4, 7, 16b, 20, 21) This supports the conclusion that Michael is Jesus Christ, since Jesus is Jehovah’s appointed King, commissioned to destroy all the nations at Har–Magedon.—Re 11:15; 16:14-16.

david.

[NickHassan]

Quote (k4c @ Dec. 14 2005,02:11)

There is coming a time when Jesus returns with all His angelic host. Matthew 25:31-32 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: Who is the Captain of the heavenly host? It's Michael the archangel the Angel of the LORD and Captain of the heavenly host. Joshua 5:13-15 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the Lord am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant? And the captain of the Lord's host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so. Revelation 12:7  And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought. Jesus, with His voice, the voice of the archangel will shout and the dead shall rise. This will bring about a judgment like never before. 1 Thessalonians 4:16  For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. All will give an account on that day. Matthew 25:41-43 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. This will be a day when the dead rise out of the dust. Those who are written in the book of life will shine like the stars of heaven but the others, it will be a terrible day for them. Who do you think brings this all about? Jesus does. There is a prophecy in the book of Daniel that fortells this day and who brings it all about. Daniel 12:1-4 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. “But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.'' Did you notice how God tells Daniel to shut up the book until the end, in other words, Michael and Jesus will be a mystery until the book is opened. Well, Jesus has opened the book to those who have eyes to see and ears to hear. Revelation 5:1-5 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. Isaiah 63:9 In all their affliction He was afflicted, and the Angel of His Presence saved them; in His love and in His pity He redeemed them; and He bore them and carried them all the days of old. Exodus 23:20-22 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for My name is in him. But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries. There is so much more but I think it's time for me to kick the dust of my heels. May the Lord bless you as you seek to know the truth, John

Hi k4c,
Do you think Jesus is only the Captain of the heavenly Hosts?
The supreme commander with all the Authority of God having to do the menial tasks?

tsk tsk

[NickHassan]

Quote (david @ Dec. 14 2005,02:54)

Nick, to say there is no circumstantial evidence is simply false. WHO IS MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL? Michael means “Who Is Like God?” The name evidently designates Michael as the one who takes the lead in upholding Jehovah’s sovereignty and destroying God’s enemies. He is referred to as “the great prince who has charge of your [Daniel’s] people,” and as “the archangel.” (Dan. 10:13; 12:1; Jude 9, RS) JESUS CALLS OUT WITH AN ARCHANGELS VOICE. At 1 Thessalonians 4:16 (RS), the command of Jesus Christ for the resurrection to begin is described as “the archangel’s call,” and Jude 9 says that the archangel is Michael. It is reasonable to conclude that only an archangel would call “with an archangel’s voice.”  Would it be appropriate to liken Jesus’ commanding call to that of someone lesser in authority? For example, a king is above a noble.  If you have a king, someone in great power and he calls out something of importance, you wouldn’t say: ‘He called out with a nobles voice,’ unless the King was a also a noble.  If the king wasn’t a noble, you would say: He called out with the voice of a king.  To say he called out with a nobles voice would be to diminish him, unless he was both a noble and a king. It is only logical, therefore, that the voice expressing this commanding call be described by a word that would not diminish or detract from the great authority that Christ Jesus now has as King of kings and Lord of lords. (Mt 28:18; Re 17:14) If the designation “archangel” applied, not to Jesus Christ, but to other angels, then the reference to “an archangel’s voice” would not be appropriate. In that case it would be describing a voice of lesser authority than that of the Son of God. “ARCHANGEL” IS NEVER FOUND IN PLURAL IN SCRIPTURE Interestingly, the expression “archangel” is never found in the plural in the Scriptures, thus implying that there is only one.  Hence, it is reasonable to conclude that Jehovah God has delegated to one, and only one, of his heavenly creatures full authority over all other angels. WHO TAKES ACTION AGAINST THE SATAN, “RULER OF THIS WORLD”? Revelation 12:7-12 says that Michael and his angels would war against Satan and hurl him and his wicked angels out of heaven in connection with the conferring of kingly authority on Christ. Jesus is later depicted as leading the armies of heaven in war against the nations of the world. (Rev. 19:11-16) Is it not reasonable that Jesus would also be the one to take action against the one he described as “ruler of this world,” Satan the Devil? (John 12:31) Daniel 12:1 (RS) associates the ‘standing up of Michael’ to act with authority with “a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time.” That would certainly fit the experience of the nations when Christ as heavenly executioner takes action against them. So the evidence indicates that the Son of God was known as Michael before he came to earth and is known also by that name since his return to heaven where he resides as the glorified spirit Son of God. WHO ELSE IS SPOKEN OF AS HAVING ANGELS UNDER SUBJECTION? Aside from the Creator himself, only one faithful person is spoken of as having angels under subjection—namely, Jesus Christ. (Matthew 13:41; 16:27; 24:31) The apostle Paul made specific mention of “the Lord Jesus” and “his powerful angels.” (2 Thessalonians 1:7) And Peter described the resurrected Jesus by saying: “He is at God’s right hand, for he went his way to heaven; and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him.”—1 Peter 3:22. JESUS IS COMMISSIONED TO DESTROY ALL THE NATIONS AT ARMAGEDON There are also other correspondencies establishing that Michael is actually the Son of God. Daniel, after making the first reference to Michael (Da 10:13), recorded a prophecy reaching down to “the time of the end” (Da 11:40) and then stated: “And during that time Michael will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of [Daniel’s] people.” (Da 12:1) Michael’s ‘standing up’ was to be associated with “a time of distress such as has not been made to occur since there came to be a nation until that time.” (Da 12:1) In Daniel’s prophecy, ‘standing up’ frequently refers to the action of a king, either taking up his royal power or acting effectively in his capacity as king. (Da 11:2-4, 7, 16b, 20, 21) This supports the conclusion that Michael is Jesus Christ, since Jesus is Jehovah’s appointed King, commissioned to destroy all the nations at Har–Magedon.—Re 11:15; 16:14-16. david.

So david,
It is only circumstantial evidence now.

Yet you are prepared to preach it before God and man as the truth?

You are brave but I am not sure about wise..

[Bastian]

John 5:45-47
45″Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope.
46″For if you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me.
47″But you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?”
There is not one scripture in the entire bible to lead one to believe that Jesus Christ existed before he was born. The Messiah is shown to be a unique human being in every respect, but not one passage would lead one to believe that he resided in heaven, and came down to earth in the form of a man, like the mythological gods of the Greeks and Romans.
In the beginning was the word. Without the book of John, there would be no trinity, and we would not be debating if Michael were the son.
KC4
Psalm 33:5
5He loves righteousness and justice;
the earth is full of the loving-kindness of the LORD.
6By the word of the LORD the heavens were made,
and by the breath of His mouth their entire host.
7He gathers the waters of the sea together as a heap;
He lays up the deeps in storehouses.

13And it happened, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
14And he said, nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, what saith my Lord unto his servant?
15And the captain of the LORD's host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

AND THE BREATH OF HIS MOUTH ALL THEIR HOST. THIS IS NOT REFERRING TO PLANETS AND STARS. IT IS TELLING OF THE MULTITUDES OF ANGELS, VAST ARMIES OF THE LORD, THAT HE CREATED.
oops sorry, caps on

This angel is the captain of the hosts, he himself is a host. A created being that was made at the same time the other angels were created.
Joshua is not worshipping the angel. If the angel were who you believe he is, Joshua would have fallen on his face the moment he saw him. He wouldn’t have had to ask him who he was. Upon hearing, that God had sent this angel to him, then Joshua fell on his knees and worshipped his Yahweh creator, not the messenger.

The psalm tells us that by His word the heavens were made.
Not an angel
This is what angels do
Psalm 103
19The LORD has established His throne in the heavens,
and His sovereignty rules over all.
20Bless the LORD, you His angels,
Mighty in strength, who perform His word,
Obeying the voice of His word!
21Bless the LORD, all you His hosts,
you who serve Him, doing His will.

They Bless the Lord, they perform His word, and they obey. They are not part of the creative process. That belongs to God alone.

Jeremiah 7:11- 13

11 “Tell them this: 'These gods, who did not make the heavens and the earth, will perish from the earth and from under the heavens.' ”
12 But God made the earth by his power;
he founded the world by his wisdom
and stretched out the heavens by his understanding.
13 When he thunders, the waters in the heavens roar
Jesus is not wisdom, or Michael or any other created being. Wisdom always was. Wisdom is also female in gender.
Psalm 119:40

41May Your lovingkindnesses also come to me, O LORD,
Your salvation according to Your word;
42So I will have an answer for him who reproaches me,
For I trust in Your word.

The word became flesh and preached salvation for all humanity.

I have a hypothetical question. If Michael was incarnated as an embryo in the body of a women. What part of him came to earth, and what part remained in heaven? Did he continue to function as an angel, while functioning as Messiah?

I agree with you that Jesus is the first of the new creation. This is how I see it.

God had a plan. He created Adam. Jesus is the second Adam.

Two Adams
Two created beings
Two sons of God
Two men
Two gardens
Two temptations
Two choices
Two attitudes

Two decisions
Two results
Two races

The Holy Spirit of God created Jesus in the womb of Mary. That makes God his father. He remained sinless, not because as Trinitarians want you to believe he could not sin, but because he obeyed God and did his will. He did not break the law once. If he had, he would have sinned. That is how we know the Pharisees were full of themselves.

17For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.
18No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
That included Jesus before going up in glory to be with the Father. Jesus was always in His Father’s bosom. However, not as a person, or a part of a Godhead. He was in God’s heart.
Jesus is the heart of God. If you have seen me, you have seen the Father. If you have heard me, you have heard God speaking. I am God’s perfect representative. The way man is supposed to be. Made in the image of God. Not, in the image of the first man Adam (earthy)  
Study the two Genesis accounts.
Take care, Bastian

[NickHassan]

Hi bastion,
Good stuff.
But:
Was Christ the Word?
Were other sons of God before him?
Was he sent by the Father and if so when and from where?
Was he before Abraham, David and John the baptist?
Where did he descend from and ascend to?
Was he created when he partook of flesh?
Was Mary his mother or only a surrogate?

[Bastian]

Was Christ the Word?
Were other sons of God before him?
Was he sent by the Father and if so when and from where?
Was he before Abraham, David and John the baptist?
Where did he descend from and ascend to?
Was he created when he partook of flesh?
Was Mary his mother or only a surrogate?

Was Mary his mother or only a surrogate?

I am going to quote from the K.J.V. In my humble opinion, the translators were right on with this interpretation.

John 17:8
For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely THAT I CAME OUT FROM THEE, and they believed that thou didst send me.

The Greek word exerchomai “came out” means to come out of something you were inside of. Please do not read anything into this. I am not suggesting that God had intercourse with Mary. Jesus existed inside of God’s “loins”. I would say bosom, heart, mind, purpose, plan, fore knowledge etc. The Holy Spirit came upon Mary, the power of the most High over shadowed her, and that is how she conceived.

God provided the hypothetical sperm, and Mary the very real egg. If she were a surrogate, he would not have an earthly linage as written in Matthew.

Were the other sons of God before him?

If you are asking about these sons, yes.

Job 38:7

When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy!

Moreover, why is that you may ask. Because these particular sons are the mighty host of angels that He created. Jesus was not, is not, and shall never be an angel.

Did the Father send him? If so when, and from where?

Yes.

In his mothers’ womb. At conception.

Was he before David, Abraham, and John?

David and Abraham men of Faith looked ahead to Messiah.

Abram, a gentile called out of Ur, modern day Iraq obeyed.

God told Abraham that He would make him a great Nation, and that this would happen through his son Isaac. He believed and the Lord accounted it to him for righteousness.

Abraham saw my day and was glad.

How did Abraham see Messiah’s day?

God tests Abraham

Notice in Genesis Chapter 22 verse 5, Abraham tells the men that have accompanied him and Isaac to stay with the donkey and that he and his son were to go worship, AND WE WILL RETURN TO YOU. I don’t think old Abe was a fibber, do you?

Jesus was before John in that he was superior to John. The baptizer pretty much explains himself when he says he is not worthy to unlace his, Messiah’s sandals.

The answer to the rest of the questions I believe are covered in the above answers.

Be well, Bastian

[kenrch]

Quote (david @ Dec. 14 2005,20:54)

Nick, to say there is no circumstantial evidence is simply false. WHO IS MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL? Michael means “Who Is Like God?” The name evidently designates Michael as the one who takes the lead in upholding Jehovah’s sovereignty and destroying God’s enemies. He is referred to as “the great prince who has charge of your [Daniel’s] people,” and as “the archangel.” (Dan. 10:13; 12:1; Jude 9, RS) JESUS CALLS OUT WITH AN ARCHANGELS VOICE. At 1 Thessalonians 4:16 (RS), the command of Jesus Christ for the resurrection to begin is described as “the archangel’s call,” and Jude 9 says that the archangel is Michael. It is reasonable to conclude that only an archangel would call “with an archangel’s voice.”  Would it be appropriate to liken Jesus’ commanding call to that of someone lesser in authority? For example, a king is above a noble.  If you have a king, someone in great power and he calls out something of importance, you wouldn’t say: ‘He called out with a nobles voice,’ unless the King was a also a noble.  If the king wasn’t a noble, you would say: He called out with the voice of a king.  To say he called out with a nobles voice would be to diminish him, unless he was both a noble and a king. It is only logical, therefore, that the voice expressing this commanding call be described by a word that would not diminish or detract from the great authority that Christ Jesus now has as King of kings and Lord of lords. (Mt 28:18; Re 17:14) If the designation “archangel” applied, not to Jesus Christ, but to other angels, then the reference to “an archangel’s voice” would not be appropriate. In that case it would be describing a voice of lesser authority than that of the Son of God. “ARCHANGEL” IS NEVER FOUND IN PLURAL IN SCRIPTURE Interestingly, the expression “archangel” is never found in the plural in the Scriptures, thus implying that there is only one.  Hence, it is reasonable to conclude that Jehovah God has delegated to one, and only one, of his heavenly creatures full authority over all other angels. WHO TAKES ACTION AGAINST THE SATAN, “RULER OF THIS WORLD”? Revelation 12:7-12 says that Michael and his angels would war against Satan and hurl him and his wicked angels out of heaven in connection with the conferring of kingly authority on Christ. Jesus is later depicted as leading the armies of heaven in war against the nations of the world. (Rev. 19:11-16) Is it not reasonable that Jesus would also be the one to take action against the one he described as “ruler of this world,” Satan the Devil? (John 12:31) Daniel 12:1 (RS) associates the ‘standing up of Michael’ to act with authority with “a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time.” That would certainly fit the experience of the nations when Christ as heavenly executioner takes action against them. So the evidence indicates that the Son of God was known as Michael before he came to earth and is known also by that name since his return to heaven where he resides as the glorified spirit Son of God. WHO ELSE IS SPOKEN OF AS HAVING ANGELS UNDER SUBJECTION? Aside from the Creator himself, only one faithful person is spoken of as having angels under subjection—namely, Jesus Christ. (Matthew 13:41; 16:27; 24:31) The apostle Paul made specific mention of “the Lord Jesus” and “his powerful angels.” (2 Thessalonians 1:7) And Peter described the resurrected Jesus by saying: “He is at God’s right hand, for he went his way to heaven; and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him.”—1 Peter 3:22. JESUS IS COMMISSIONED TO DESTROY ALL THE NATIONS AT ARMAGEDON There are also other correspondencies establishing that Michael is actually the Son of God. Daniel, after making the first reference to Michael (Da 10:13), recorded a prophecy reaching down to “the time of the end” (Da 11:40) and then stated: “And during that time Michael will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of [Daniel’s] people.” (Da 12:1) Michael’s ‘standing up’ was to be associated with “a time of distress such as has not been made to occur since there came to be a nation until that time.” (Da 12:1) In Daniel’s prophecy, ‘standing up’ frequently refers to the action of a king, either taking up his royal power or acting effectively in his capacity as king. (Da 11:2-4, 7, 16b, 20, 21) This supports the conclusion that Michael is Jesus Christ, since Jesus is Jehovah’s appointed King, commissioned to destroy all the nations at Har–Magedon.—Re 11:15; 16:14-16. david.

Davd,

You Said:“ARCHANGEL” IS NEVER FOUND IN PLURAL IN SCRIPTURE
Interestingly, the expression “archangel” is never found in the plural in the Scriptures, thus implying that there is only one. Hence, it is reasonable to conclude that Jehovah God has delegated to one, and only one, of his heavenly creatures full authority over all other angels.

Is this Michael the same Michael the archangel?
(ASV) But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days; but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me: and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Is this Michael ONE of the chief princes,the same as Michael the archangel? If so then ONE of the chief princes indicates that they are more than one archangel. If that being the case then the only reason why Michael is mentioned is that he was appointed over God's people. There would be no reason to mention any of the other archangels.
Michael being the archangel in charge sent a angel to answer Daniel's prayers. The prince of Persia stoped the angel so Michael had to help the lower rank angel. No one can take anything away from Michael he did his duity as an archangel.
Is not Daniel 10:13 saying that there are more that one archangel?

What I don't understand is if it is the Son of God who is above all angels in fact is considered God “therefore God YOUR God has annointed thee…” Heb. 1:8,9. Why would He have a voice of only an archangel. He doesn't have a voice of an archangel only Michael who is in charge of protecting God's people has that voice and it's his voice one will hear not the King of Kings. The lower archangel will be sent to “clean up”. Jesus is way above an archangel.

Again, Heb 1:8 but of the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever; And the sceptre of uprightness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; Therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee With the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Are these sriptures speaking of an archangel?

I can't expect any less from a person who is spiritually DEAD!
In fact I don't see any point in trying to talk to the dead, especially when that person knows deep down that he needs to be born again. You have truly made your choice.

[NickHassan]

Quote (david @ Dec. 14 2005,02:54)

Nick, to say there is no circumstantial evidence is simply false. WHO IS MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL? Michael means “Who Is Like God?” The name evidently designates Michael as the one who takes the lead in upholding Jehovah’s sovereignty and destroying God’s enemies. He is referred to as “the great prince who has charge of your [Daniel’s] people,” and as “the archangel.” (Dan. 10:13; 12:1; Jude 9, RS) JESUS CALLS OUT WITH AN ARCHANGELS VOICE. At 1 Thessalonians 4:16 (RS), the command of Jesus Christ for the resurrection to begin is described as “the archangel’s call,” and Jude 9 says that the archangel is Michael. It is reasonable to conclude that only an archangel would call “with an archangel’s voice.”  Would it be appropriate to liken Jesus’ commanding call to that of someone lesser in authority? For example, a king is above a noble.  If you have a king, someone in great power and he calls out something of importance, you wouldn’t say: ‘He called out with a nobles voice,’ unless the King was a also a noble.  If the king wasn’t a noble, you would say: He called out with the voice of a king.  To say he called out with a nobles voice would be to diminish him, unless he was both a noble and a king. It is only logical, therefore, that the voice expressing this commanding call be described by a word that would not diminish or detract from the great authority that Christ Jesus now has as King of kings and Lord of lords. (Mt 28:18; Re 17:14) If the designation “archangel” applied, not to Jesus Christ, but to other angels, then the reference to “an archangel’s voice” would not be appropriate. In that case it would be describing a voice of lesser authority than that of the Son of God. “ARCHANGEL” IS NEVER FOUND IN PLURAL IN SCRIPTURE Interestingly, the expression “archangel” is never found in the plural in the Scriptures, thus implying that there is only one.  Hence, it is reasonable to conclude that Jehovah God has delegated to one, and only one, of his heavenly creatures full authority over all other angels. WHO TAKES ACTION AGAINST THE SATAN, “RULER OF THIS WORLD”? Revelation 12:7-12 says that Michael and his angels would war against Satan and hurl him and his wicked angels out of heaven in connection with the conferring of kingly authority on Christ. Jesus is later depicted as leading the armies of heaven in war against the nations of the world. (Rev. 19:11-16) Is it not reasonable that Jesus would also be the one to take action against the one he described as “ruler of this world,” Satan the Devil? (John 12:31) Daniel 12:1 (RS) associates the ‘standing up of Michael’ to act with authority with “a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time.” That would certainly fit the experience of the nations when Christ as heavenly executioner takes action against them. So the evidence indicates that the Son of God was known as Michael before he came to earth and is known also by that name since his return to heaven where he resides as the glorified spirit Son of God. WHO ELSE IS SPOKEN OF AS HAVING ANGELS UNDER SUBJECTION? Aside from the Creator himself, only one faithful person is spoken of as having angels under subjection—namely, Jesus Christ. (Matthew 13:41; 16:27; 24:31) The apostle Paul made specific mention of “the Lord Jesus” and “his powerful angels.” (2 Thessalonians 1:7) And Peter described the resurrected Jesus by saying: “He is at God’s right hand, for he went his way to heaven; and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him.”—1 Peter 3:22. JESUS IS COMMISSIONED TO DESTROY ALL THE NATIONS AT ARMAGEDON There are also other correspondencies establishing that Michael is actually the Son of God. Daniel, after making the first reference to Michael (Da 10:13), recorded a prophecy reaching down to “the time of the end” (Da 11:40) and then stated: “And during that time Michael will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of [Daniel’s] people.” (Da 12:1) Michael’s ‘standing up’ was to be associated with “a time of distress such as has not been made to occur since there came to be a nation until that time.” (Da 12:1) In Daniel’s prophecy, ‘standing up’ frequently refers to the action of a king, either taking up his royal power or acting effectively in his capacity as king. (Da 11:2-4, 7, 16b, 20, 21) This supports the conclusion that Michael is Jesus Christ, since Jesus is Jehovah’s appointed King, commissioned to destroy all the nations at Har–Magedon.—Re 11:15; 16:14-16. david.

Hi david,
1Thess 4.16
” for the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first”

So if you are a JW you will marry this with
Jude 9
“But Michael THE archangel..”
and
Jn 5.28
“Do not marvel at this;for an hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs will hear HIS voice..”

to reach the following conclusions;

Michael is the ONLY archangel
The dead hear the voice of Michael
Thus Michael is Jesus.

Reason is not our guide but scriptural truth.

Looking again at 1Thess:
Who descends ?The Lord
Is he alone? It is not stated but who would think he was?
Who shouts? Not stated.
Is there an archangel? It is not stated but surely the voice suggests he was in the vicinity.
What else is present? The trumpet sound.
Does this sound by itself? Not stated .
What does it suggest? It is likely a trumpet player is present.
Does the verse state the Lord shouts? no
Does the verse state the Lord blows the trumpet? Not stated
Does it state the Lord then shouts or speaks using the voice of an archangel? No
Then why would it suggest the Lord IS the archangel?
Good question. I have no answer.
The minds of men are remarkably fertile.

[Eliyah]

Right Nick, The Messiah was not and is not Michael the Archangel as the JWs claim.

I have had 2 different people from ( Penn. and N.Y.) which are prominant men of that Organization come to my Home in the past 2 years for discussion concerning major doctrines that the JWs hold onto which is not scriptural.

These men and even in the Appendix of their New World translation Admit that the true Name of Yahweh is the more correct English transliteration of the Father's Name, however, they say the reason that they stay with the wrong form name Je'hovah, is because people are more familiar with that name.”” Unquote, Which is Poppy #### and I have told them so, that is no reason to stay or continue to hold onto error for the sake of tradition of others.

However, as far as YAHshua Messiah, He was not, nor is He An Archangel Michael, and ( Hebrews 1:4-8) absolutely dis-proves such a doctrine, and He( YAHshua Messiah) NEVER took on the nature of angels( Hebrews 2:16=O.K.J.V.).

The Father's Name is YAHweh and the Son's Name is YAHshua, and BOTH NAMES MEAN THE SAME== Yah- Savior( Matt.1:21) and ALL THE PROPHETS IN SCRIPTURES GIVE WITNESS to Him( the Messiah) and His NAME, that everyone who puts faith in HIM, gets remission of sins THROUGH HIS( TRUE) NAME( Acts 10:43).

What true NAME does all the prophets in scriptures give witness to, that a person who puts faith in Him, gets forgiveness of sins THROUGH HIS ( TRUE) NAME( Through what or which true Name that ALL the prophets give witness to do you get forgiveness of sins ?

https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;st=100

[berean2005]

Yahshua is Yahweh God manifested in flesh to save the world.

Yahweh came the first time as a LAMB and as SAVIOR.

Next Yahweh will come as a CONSUMING FIRE and as JUDGE.

There is no Savior but YAHWEH.

Yahweh is Savior.

Yahweh is ONE (not two, three, four, etc).

“Holy Three” is NOT what Yahweh is called in the Scriptures. Rome's Triad doctrine is false.

Yahweh is called the “HOLY ONE” in the Scriptures.

Yahweh is one.

There is no Savior but Yahweh.

Praise Yahweh.

Amen.

[Eliyah]

That was a very nice post berean, that is why I Call Messiah YAHWEH-SHUA.

http://www.freewebs.com/elyah/whoreallywasyahshua.htm

However, to combine a Babylonian deity of “” GOD= GAWD=GUWD, Strongs 1409, 1413, 1464 “” to Him is unthinkable to Him.

http://www.freewebs.com/elyah/whodoyouworship.htm

https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….14;st=0

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