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Quote (k4c @ Dec. 11 2005,14:19) I believe Michael is Jesus not because someone told me but rather because of hours upon hours of study and prayer. The biggest reason why it took hours upon hours of study is because of all the false trinity concepts the Lord had to untie and remove from my faith and untwist from His word. , this is their free will right to do so.
.As far as having no evidence to Michael and Jesus being the same, I just put together a 50 page study packed with evidence to this truth. Even with all this, people will still reject the fact that Michael, the sinless Son of God, put on sinful flesh and died to save mankind.
This truth still rings clear even to this day…
Hi k4c,
It is great to study the Word and find what you believe is truth.It is your right to call whatever you like truth to you if that is your opinion.
But that does not make your opinions truth for all.
Truth is eternal and stands apart from your and my opinions.
Before anyone can learn the truth about Michael they truly need to have a desire to know the truth. This desire has to be so powerful that you would be willing to lose all fellowship with those who reject this truth because they will disown you. You will have to be willing to let go of all that you have been taught to receive from God. If this is not your attitude then all our discussions on this topic will be in vain.
With this I will ask you a question.
Trinitarians believe that Jesus was the Angel of the Lord in the OT. The name (Angel of the Lord) is not a personal name but rather it's a title for there are many angels of the Lord throughout Scripture. But in reading the OT you will find one Angel of the Lord who is different from all the other angels of the Lord. It's this Angel of the Lord that Trinitarians say is Jesus in His preexisted form.
My question is this…
What is this personal name of this Angel of the Lord?
Proverbs 30:4 Who has ascended into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son's name, if you know?
Don't say His name is Jesus because the name Jesus was given to Him by His earthy family.
Matthew 1:20-21 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. “And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.''
Quote (k4c @ Dec. 11 2005,18:27) Before anyone can learn the truth about Michael they truly need to have a desire to know the truth. This desire has to be so powerful that you would be willing to lose all fellowship with those who reject this truth because they will disown you. You will have to be willing to let go of all that you have been taught to receive from God. If this is not your attitude then all our discussions on this topic will be in vain. With this I will ask you a question.
Trinitarians believe that Jesus was the Angel of the Lord in the OT. The name (Angel of the Lord) is not a personal name but rather it's a title for there are many angels of the Lord throughout Scripture. But in reading the OT you will find one Angel of the Lord who is different from all the other angels of the Lord. It's this Angel of the Lord that Trinitarians say is Jesus in His preexisted form.
My question is this…
What is this personal name of this Angel of the Lord?
Proverbs 30:4 Who has ascended into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son's name, if you know?
Hi k4c,
The angel of the Lord is only identified as “the angel of the Lord”
To go beyond this is to enter the fascinating but useless world of speculation.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 11 2005,19:12) Hi k4c,
The angel of the Lord is only identified as “the angel of the Lord”
To go beyond this is to enter the fascinating but useless world of speculation.
This is where you fall short…I'll give you another clue.
Judges 13:18 And the Angel of the Lord said to him, “Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?''
Quote (k4c @ Dec. 11 2005,22:12) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 11 2005,19:12) Hi k4c,
The angel of the Lord is only identified as “the angel of the Lord”
To go beyond this is to enter the fascinating but useless world of speculation.
This is where you fall short…I'll give you another clue.
Judges 13:18 And the Angel of the Lord said to him, “Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?''
Hi k4c,
Does it not raise some fascinating possibilities? No answers recorded so another dead end unfortunately if you rely on revelation for truth.Quote (k4c @ Dec. 11 2005,13:31) Don't say His name is Jesus because the name Jesus was given to Him by His earthy family. Matthew 1:20-21 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. “And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.''
Jesus' earthly family did not give Him His name. The scripture that you quote says that the angel of the Lord gave Jesus His name. Please just simply give me the scripture that says Jesus is Michael. Your belief system is exactly the same as the trinity, a bunch of speculation and preconceived ideas. It sounds to me that you just exchanged one false doctrine for another. Even though you're saying you're not a JW you are believing their false teaching. So if I'm wrong give me the verse of scripture.Quote (Sultan @ Dec. 12 2005,02:30) Quote (k4c @ Dec. 11 2005,13:31) Don't say His name is Jesus because the name Jesus was given to Him by His earthy family. Matthew 1:20-21 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. “And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.''
Jesus' earthly family did not give Him His name. The scripture that you quote says that the angel of the Lord gave Jesus His name. Please just simply give me the scripture that says Jesus is Michael. Your belief system is exactly the same as the trinity, a bunch of speculation and preconceived ideas. It sounds to me that you just exchanged one false doctrine for another. Even though you're saying you're not a JW you are believing their false teaching. So if I'm wrong give me the verse of scripture.
Hi sultan,
And as angels are just messengers[angel=messenger]then the name came from God. Which explains why scripture says
“Jesus Christ came in the flesh”
k4c,
This message came through an “angel of the Lord” so why is this one not Jesus too? Who decides?If you are going to speculate you must at least be consistent surely?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 12 2005,10:50) Hi kenrch,
No connection to Michael or any other angel or archangel here. What are you on about?
Nick,I'm sorry that post was directed to k4c.
I was trying to explain what I ment when I said that “What difference dose the name make” Bad choice of words on my part.
If it were true that Michael were everyting Jesus is, then the name we would be honoring is Michael and not Jesus.
If it were true that Michael were the Son of God and died for us then what would the advantage be if Michael were Jesus.Would the results be the same? And IF it were true then would the next step be any different. IF Michael were Jesus would the bible read the same except for the name change.
Would not we be saved IF Michael were Jesus.
So why would one spend so much time trying to convence someone else that Michael is Jesus.My thought is the longer you spend time trying to prove Michael then that would be less time you would have learning something else. A snare of Satan?.
All that being said I am willing to learn any truth. As a judge you must make your case or I will throw it out of court. I will attempt to prove you wrong beyond a shadow of doubt and if the Spirit says the same then you have no case.
But if you start having proof then I will be more than willing learn (I love the truth).Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 12 2005,10:17) Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 11 2005,15:49) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 11 2005,17:46) Hi,
Truly let the dead bury the dead.
Nick,We agree on something
May be I'm missing something. Please show me what I'm missing. I certainly don't know it all, nobody does.
Are you basing your belief that Jesus was flesh while in heaven on 1 John?
Joh 1:14
(ALT) And the Word [or, the Expression of [divine] Logic] became flesh and tabernacled among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of an only-begotten [or, uniquely-begotten] from [the] Father, full of grace and truth.
(ASV) And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth.
(BBE) And so the Word became flesh and took a place among us for a time; and we saw his glory–such glory as is given to an only son by his father–saw it to be true and full of grace.
(ESV) And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
(GW) The Word became human and lived among us. We saw his glory. It was the glory that the Father shares with his only Son, a glory full of kindness and truth.
(HCSB) The Word became flesh and took up residence among us. We observed His glory, the glory as the One and Only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
(ISV) The Word became flesh and tabernacled among us. We gazed on his glory, the kind of glory that belongs to the Father's unique Son, full of grace and truth.
(KJV+) And2532 the3588 Word3056 was made1096 flesh,4561 and2532 dwelt4637 among1722 us,2254 (and2532 we beheld2300 his846 glory,1391 the glory1391 as5613 of the only begotten3439 of3844 the Father,)3962 full4134 of grace5485 and2532 truth.225
(KJV-1611) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among vs (& we beheld his glory, the glory as of the onely begotten of the Father) full of grace and trueth.
(KJVA) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
(MRC) And the Word became flesh, and tabernacled among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
(Murdock) And the: Word became flesh, and tabernacled with us: and we saw his glory, a glory as of the only begotten from the Father, that he was full of grace and truth.
(SVD) وَالْكَلِمَةُ صَارَ جَسَداً وَحَلَّ بَيْنَنَا وَرَأَيْنَا مَجْدَهُ مَجْداً كَمَا لِوَحِيدٍ مِنَ الآبِ مَمْلُوءاً نِعْمَةً وَحَقّاً.
(WEB) The Word became flesh, and lived among us. We saw his glory, such glory as of the one and only Son of the Father, full of grace and truth.
Would you agree that the Word was not flesh and then became flesh?
**********************************************1Jo 4:2
(ALT) By this is known the Spirit of God: every spirit which confesses Jesus Christ [as] having come in [the] flesh is of God.
(ASV) Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
(BBE) By this you may have knowledge of the Spirit of God: every spirit which says that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God:
(ESV) By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
(GW) This is how you can recognize God's Spirit: Every person who declares that Jesus Christ has come as a human has the Spirit that is from God.
(HCSB) This is how you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit who confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God.
(ISV) This is how you can recognize God's Spirit: Every spirit who acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God.
(KJV+) Hereby1722, 5129 know1097 ye the3588 Spirit4151 of God:2316 Every3956 spirit4151 that3739 confesseth3670 that Jesus2424 Christ5547 is come2064 in1722 the flesh4561 is2076 of1537 God:2316
(KJV-1611) Hereby know ye the spirit of God: euery spirit that confesseth that Iesus Christ is come in the flesh, is of God.
(KJVA) Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
(MRC) By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Yeshua the Messiah has come in the flesh is from God;
(Murdock) By this the Spirit of God is known, every spirit that confesseth that Jesus the Messiah hath come in the flesh, is of God.
(SVD) بِهَذَا تَعْرِفُونَ رُوحَ اللهِ: كُلُّ رُوحٍ يَعْتَرِفُ بِيَسُوعَ الْمَسِيحِ أَنَّهُ قَدْ جَاءَ فِي الْجَسَدِ فَهُوَ مِنَ اللهِ،
(WEB) By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit who confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,
Taken in context with John 1:1 this is what 1 John is saying.
Anyone who says that the Messiah from heaven was Jesus in the flesh is of the Spirit of God.
Hi kenrch
“Jesus was flesh while in heaven”
??That is the missing link that I have never stated or implied.
All I am saying is that in God's eyes His Son's name 'Jesus' can be applied to his pre-flesh state. Partaking of flesh did not change his name to Jesus Christ. John spoke of Jesus and called
him the “Word”, which is the usual name applied to him before his conception, but he was showing us the name link to the Son of Man that men only knew as Jesus Christ.
Nick,Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
1Jo 4:2 This is how you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit who confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God.
I can't say I see the same thing as you.…”.that Jesus the Messiah has come inthe flesh…”
The Messiah the Jew's were expecting has come in the flesh (John 1:1).Looks to me like your adding to the Word to make it fit your doctrine.
That's the way it is, your trying to make 1 John say that the Word was flesh in heaven before He born flesh through Mary.The Mormon's believe that the Father is flesh and He has children of flesh in heaven. They even say that God has a wife. You and I were spirit beings before the foundation of the world but don't remember.
Believe what you want but it doesn't seem, look, or read like that to me. Hey I could be wrong but I doubt it!
Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 12 2005,02:59) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 12 2005,10:50) Hi kenrch,
No connection to Michael or any other angel or archangel here. What are you on about?
Nick,I'm sorry that post was directed to k4c.
I was trying to explain what I ment when I said that “What difference dose the name make” Bad choice of words on my part.
If it were true that Michael were everyting Jesus is, then the name we would be honoring is Michael and not Jesus.
If it were true that Michael were the Son of God and died for us then what would the advantage be if Michael were Jesus.Would the results be the same? And IF it were true then would the next step be any different. IF Michael were Jesus would the bible read the same except for the name change.
Would not we be saved IF Michael were Jesus.
So why would one spend so much time trying to convence someone else that Michael is Jesus.My thought is the longer you spend time trying to prove Michael then that would be less time you would have learning something else. A snare of Satan?.
All that being said I am willing to learn any truth. As a judge you must make your case or I will throw it out of court. I will attempt to prove you wrong beyond a shadow of doubt and if the Spirit says the same then you have no case.
But if you start having proof then I will be more than willing learn (I love the truth).
Hi kenrch,
You are right. Nothing to gain. Nothing to be clarified. Only confusion upon confusion for no apparent benefit.Michael is an angel, an archangel and a prince, but not the Prince of princes[Dan].
Heb 1.4
” having become as much better that the angels, as he has inherited a more excellent name that they”Scripture does not add
“except the angel Michael”Angels are messengers and as Heb 1.14 says
“Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who inherit salvation?”
Scripture does not add
“Jesus is also one of these angels called Michael sent to serve those who are saved through him”What insults are poured out on the Son of God and thus his Father!!!
A big part of salvation is the the setting free by way of truth.
John 8:32 “And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.''
Has God reveals truth He is watching for the acceptance of it by the person. If there is true repentance in a person God will reveal more truth to the person. This is how God draws His people out of the world, this is how God save His people.
Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal things, but the glory of kings is to search things out.
If you study the way God works you will see that He hides truth from some by way of parables, but to those who come to Him truly seeking His wisdom He will reveal the deeper truths.
Matthew 13:9-17 “He who has ears to hear, let him hear!'' and the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?'' He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. “For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. “Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. “And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: `Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, and seeing you will see and not perceive; for the heart of this people has grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, lest they should understand with their heart and turn, so that I should heal them.' “But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear; “for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
John 14:21 The one who obeys me is the one who loves me; and because he loves me, my Father will love him; and I will too, and I will reveal myself to him.''
K4C,
I'm still waiting for my scripture that says Jesus is Michael. I hope you're not waiting for a new bible translation to come out with the verse in it (joke).Quote (k4c @ Dec. 12 2005,11:05) A big part of salvation is the the setting free by way of truth. John 8:32 “And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.''
Has God reveals truth He is watching for the acceptance of it by the person. If there is true repentance in a person God will reveal more truth to the person. This is how God draws His people out of the world, this is how God save His people.
Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal things, but the glory of kings is to search things out.
If you study the way God works you will see that He hides truth from some by way of parables, but to those who come to Him truly seeking His wisdom He will reveal the deeper truths.
Matthew 13:9-17 “He who has ears to hear, let him hear!'' and the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?'' He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. “For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. “Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. “And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: `Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, and seeing you will see and not perceive; for the heart of this people has grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, lest they should understand with their heart and turn, so that I should heal them.' “But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear; “for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
John 14:21 The one who obeys me is the one who loves me; and because he loves me, my Father will love him; and I will too, and I will reveal myself to him.''
Hi k4c,
We often hear in these forums your plaintive cry that “if you were of God you would accept what I say”. Everyone thinks they are right.We have weighed your words and found them of man, not God.You are speaking with the voice of a stranger[Jn 10]
You have gone beyond the teaching of Christ[2Jn]
Your teachings do not remind us of Christ's[Jn 16]It is you that has abandoned the safe path of revealed truth and are preferring your own inspirations. You are into baseless speculations
1Tim 1.4, Rom 1.21, 2Tim 2.23.We all need the Spirit to guide our feet but we also need the map of Scripture to know the spirit is the Spirit of God.
Quote (Sultan @ Dec. 12 2005,02:30) Quote (k4c @ Dec. 11 2005,13:31) Don't say His name is Jesus because the name Jesus was given to Him by His earthy family. Matthew 1:20-21 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. “And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.''
Jesus' earthly family did not give Him His name. The scripture that you quote says that the angel of the Lord gave Jesus His name. Please just simply give me the scripture that says Jesus is Michael. Your belief system is exactly the same as the trinity, a bunch of speculation and preconceived ideas. It sounds to me that you just exchanged one false doctrine for another. Even though you're saying you're not a JW you are believing their false teaching. So if I'm wrong give me the verse of scripture.
You missed my point.I understand the angel told Jesus' family what name to call Him but that name, Jesus, came to be through His birth as the Son of man. What was Jesus' name before He took on sinful flesh?
Proverbs 30:4 Who has ascended into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son's name, If you know?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 12 2005,17:37) Hi k4c,
We often hear in these forums your plaintive cry that “if you were of God you would accept what I say”. Everyone thinks they are right.We have weighed your words and found them of man, not God.You are speaking with the voice of a stranger[Jn 10]
You have gone beyond the teaching of Christ[2Jn]
Your teachings do not remind us of Christ's[Jn 16]It is you that has abandoned the safe path of revealed truth and are preferring your own inspirations. You are into baseless speculations
1Tim 1.4, Rom 1.21, 2Tim 2.23.We all need the Spirit to guide our feet but we also need the map of Scripture to know the spirit is the Spirit of God.
Nick,Do you believe Jesus is eternally co-equal in all things with His Father?
If so, teach me how you came to this belief.
Quote (Sultan @ Dec. 12 2005,14:51) K4C,
I'm still waiting for my scripture that says Jesus is Michael. I hope you're not waiting for a new bible translation to come out with the verse in it (joke).
Do you believe Jesus preexisted?If so, how?
Quote (k4c @ Dec. 12 2005,19:02) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 12 2005,17:37) Hi k4c,
We often hear in these forums your plaintive cry that “if you were of God you would accept what I say”. Everyone thinks they are right.We have weighed your words and found them of man, not God.You are speaking with the voice of a stranger[Jn 10]
You have gone beyond the teaching of Christ[2Jn]
Your teachings do not remind us of Christ's[Jn 16]It is you that has abandoned the safe path of revealed truth and are preferring your own inspirations. You are into baseless speculations
1Tim 1.4, Rom 1.21, 2Tim 2.23.We all need the Spirit to guide our feet but we also need the map of Scripture to know the spirit is the Spirit of God.
Nick,Do you believe Jesus is eternally co-equal in all things with His Father?
If so, teach me how you came to this belief.
Hi k4c,
Scripture does not say that the Word was co-eternal with the Father.
There is little information about the epoch before time-the beginning.
Fathers usually precede their sons.It does say Jesus is the “only begotten Son”
It also says he is the “beginning of the creation of God”
It does say he is the image of the Father.What point is there in saying this if that image always existed with the original?
Quote (k4c @ Dec. 12 2005,14:04) Quote (Sultan @ Dec. 12 2005,14:51) K4C,
I'm still waiting for my scripture that says Jesus is Michael. I hope you're not waiting for a new bible translation to come out with the verse in it (joke).
Do you believe Jesus preexisted?If so, how?
I'm still waiting for my scripture. If what you believe is biblical why are you trying to ask me questions? Please give me the scripture and the debate is over or maybe there is no scripture, and so we have to speculate until we can rationalize that Jesus was Michael. John 1:1 and 1:14 tell us how Jesus existed before coming in the flesh. See how easy that was. No speculation, I'm not answering your question with a question, I'm just giving you the scripture.Quote (k4c @ Dec. 12 2005,19:04) Quote (Sultan @ Dec. 12 2005,14:51) K4C,
I'm still waiting for my scripture that says Jesus is Michael. I hope you're not waiting for a new bible translation to come out with the verse in it (joke).
Do you believe Jesus preexisted?If so, how?
Hi k4c,
What do you mean?
Do you mean that existence only begins at physical birth?If so you say God does not exist.
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