Who is this Jesus?

Participant

Hi Ramblingrose,
Pre existence is an oxymoron.
You either exist or you do not surely.

That is not the question.
It is whether you believe he was in the beginning with God and all creation came through him, he was sent from heaven and came in the flesh as scripture states.

The sons of God shown in Jb 38-were they before the Word? When were they created? Do they hold greater authority than the only begotten Son as you say they existed before him?

November 19, 2005 at 11:56 pm#10455

Participant

To Is 1:18,

John 1:1c doesn't teach that Jesus is God himself as you teach and it teaches that he was WITH God in John 1:1b.

I await your reply.

November 20, 2005 at 12:02 am#10456

Participant

He who denies that Jesus came in the flesh is antichrist.

November 20, 2005 at 4:55 am#10459

Anonymous

Guest

t8 the lousy magician who bewitches with his stupid card tricks. my eyes are quicker than your hands, your slow hands.

November 20, 2005 at 5:12 am#10463

Participant

Hi soxan
Why do you attack people rather than doctrines? It gives your arguments negative influence surely?

November 20, 2005 at 5:17 am#10464

Anonymous

Guest

in fact it is you that attacks people because you can`t back it up with the bible! you have the gall!

November 20, 2005 at 5:59 am#10465

https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….ry13576

Participant

t8,
Yes I agree that it was proper to move that discussion to an appropriate thread. However, since your last post was irrelevant to the topic (although i'm happy to reply, and will in due course) at hand I will recount the relavant posts.

I wrote:

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Hi Kenrch,
You wrote:
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Please tell me where you find that Jesus was “begotten” in heaven BEFORE God used Mary. Jesus was not begotten until Mary came along.

Yes, I agree. I also find no account of an eternal generation of the pre-incarnate Word in either Testament. Jesus is only ever identified as a Son in a post-incarnation context and your statement aligns with the NT writers understanding of the origin of this title:

LUKE 1 (KJV)
35And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

LUKE 1 (NASB)
35The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.

LUKE 1 (NIV)
35The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

Jesus will be called the Son of God as a consequence of the incarnation event. Luke makes a very clear and direct linkage between these two variables here, in this verse.

Paul said he was “declared” (From G3725; that is, [figuratively] to appoint, decree, specify: – declare, determine, limit, ordain.) to be the Son of God:

ROMANS 1:4
And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.

He also associated the origin of the 'Sonship' of Christ with the Resurrection in Acts 13:33:

ACTS 13:33
God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

Therefore, to me it is conclusive that, at least in the mind of Paul, that He was not in any way 'birthed' by the Father. This is not how Paul appears to understand the origin of the title “Son”. In fact none of the NT writers use Ps 2:7 in reference to a pre-incarnation begettal.

HEBREWS 1
5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father (future tense), and he shall be to me a Son?(future tense) 6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world (future tense), he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Notice, that the Father declares that he pre-incarnate Word will be a Son to Him (The Father) immediately before the firstbegotten is brought into the world (in terms of the passages sequence). Clearly the writer intended to convey the relationship between the titles (Father and Son) and the earthly life of Christ. If this was a reference to the eternal begettal it doesn’t fit contextually.

As far as I know He is never called a Son before his incarnation (except in the case(s) of predictive prophecy). Add to this the biblical data attesting to the eternality of Christ and it appears conclusive that the title Son of God has everything to do with His earthly existence.

Some of my thoughts for what they're worth…..

Be well
IS 1:18

PS; I didn't mean to infer that your communications skills are deficient, I actually think you communicate your ideas very well. I think your posts are unusual stylistically (a lot of exclamation marks!!) and I was curious to know if this was because English was your second language. No offense intended, my friend.

You replied:

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To Is 1:18,

Trinitarians accept the following verses as Christ and use them to prove his preexistence. If you do as well, you will notice that Wisdom was the first to be brought forth.

Proverbs 8:22-30
22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, {[22] Or ; or } {[22] Or ; or } before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,

1 Corinthians 1:24
but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

The thing is that we look through a glass dimly and scripture doesn't go into great detail regarding eternity or what it was like before creation. One thing we can be certain of is that the Word was with God, and the Word was divine. All this stuff about eternal generation is pure speculation.

The next verse is interesting as it teaches that the son is from ancient times not an eternally generation. That description is in line with Christ being the first born of all creation.

Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

Remember that Christ is the firstborn in many senses. He is also firstborn from the dead and he as preeminance in all things. Being firstborn of all creation tells us that he is not just the firstborn among men like Adam, rather of all creation.

Scripture teaches us that God is the Father and all those who share his nature are gods. Seems simple to me. Likewise if your Father is human, then you will have human nature, would you not?

In addition, the Holy Spirit is not spoken of as existing as person with God in eternity. The Spirit is the Spirit of God. You have a spirit and God has a spirit. God is holy and his spirit is the Holy Spirit.

Again the wisdom of man has blinded you from seeing the wisdom of God. That is why you do not understand the son. Jesus is the wisdom of God and if you do not understand him it is because your wisdom comes from man and not God.

Proverbs 30:4
Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!

To which I responded:

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Again not a lot of forethought in ths post from you t8. Here's a good idea: why don't you explain how you understand the verses I cited. When you have done this I will address yours and point out the flaws in your reasoning.

You responded:

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To Is 1:18,

John 1:1c doesn't teach that Jesus is God himself as you teach and it teaches that he was WITH God in John 1:1b.

I await your reply. However since this discussion is about the Holy Spirit, I will replicate this post in the appropriate discussion and hope that you answer me from there.

November 20, 2005 at 7:52 am#10466

Participant

T8,
I will answer this post and then I think it's only fair that you answer mine.

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Trinitarians accept the following verses as Christ and use them to prove his preexistence.

Here is a fallacious statement right up front. Really t8? All of them? I would like some verification that proves this. If you cannot find any, I suggest you watch your over-generalisations – its sloppy evuivocation at best, and a blatant lie at worst.

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If you do as well, you will notice that Wisdom was the first to be brought forth.

Are you seriously suggesting that the personification of wisdom in Prov 8:22-30 is valid testimony that Christ was begotten in eternity past? Here are a couple of major problems you have:

1. Feminine pronouns are used to describe “wisdom”, Proverbs personifies the attribute of wisdom as a woman. So t8, is the pre-incarnate Word the “Son of God” or the “Daughter of God”? Make up your mind.

2. Proverbs 8 says that when God prepared the heavens, Wisdom was there. Was Christ only a spectator at creation?

No t8, the pre-incarnate Word had a very active role. Consider Psalm 102:25, which is directly ascribed to Jesus by the writer of Hebrews:

HEBREWS 1
10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands

This part of the Psalm was written in reference to the Most High God, YHWH, and the writer of Hebrews unequivocally and unambiguously applied it to Jesus. It shows that the pre-incarnate Word was the actual executor of creation, the Heavens are the work of HIS hands. According to the writer it is the Father Himself who personally addresses his Son as THE Creator of the cosmos!

Not a passive onlooker t8.

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1 Corinthians 1:24
but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

If you find a verse in Proverbs 8:22-30 that is applied to Christ in the NT, you might have something solid. But just because the attrbute of wisdom is associated with Him it doesn't necessarily follow that “lady wisdom” is a historical reference to Christ begettal. Flimsy.

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I agree that the Christ is divine. But I emphatically reject your weak definition of it. I think i'll stick with how the dictionary defines divinity:

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All this stuff about eternal generation is pure speculation.

The issue on the table is: Is there any evidence for an eternal begattal. If you can't front up with anything substantial then my premise that the title “Son of God” speaks of His earthly existence, a fact that is affirmed by the NT writers, remains unchallenged.

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The next verse is interesting as it teaches that the son is from ancient times not an eternally generation. That description is in line with Christ being the first born of all creation.

There is a contradiction here. First you write that Christ is not the product of eternal generation, then you allude to Him being a first born (i'm assuming your referencing a literal birth event “in the beginning”). Which is it? Do you hold that Christ is God's progeny or not?

BTW, regarding Micah 5:2:

Micah 5
2But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

The exact word (Strongs: H4480, H5769) is also used to denote ‘YHWH's’ eternality in Psalm 93:2 and Isaiah 63:16.

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Another reference to His birth pre-incarnation. Where is the evidence? I agree with this part though:
“he [h]as preeminance in all things”

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Scripture teaches us that God is the Father and all those who share his nature are gods.

These “gods”, are they created or uncreated? Is Jesus created or uncreated. If the answers are “uncreated” and “created” resectively then is it fair to put Jesus and the “gods” in the same ontological category? I would be interested to have your thoughts here.

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Seems simple to me. Likewise if your Father is human, then you will have human nature, would you not?

Yes t8, like begets like kind. So even if I accept you unbiblical assertion that the Father beget Christ in eternity then they would still be ontological the same. If you disagree then you have a contradiction in the clearly taught Biblical precept that “like begets like kind”. But before you can even address this objection, you must give me
Biblical proof of the pre-incarnation birth event.

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Interesting. How many Spirits indwell you t8 (besides your own)? Scriptures specifies ONE. With that in mind, what do you make of these verses:

John 14:20 – At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

John 15:4 – Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

Romans 8:10 – And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Galatians 4:6 – Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba, Father.”

2 Corinthians 13:5 – Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Ephesians 3:17 – That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

Colossians 1:27 – To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

1 John 2:14 – I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the Word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

Romans 8:9-11
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

So are you indwelled by the Spirit of a “God” and “a god”. It should be only ONE. BTW, i'm not trying to make a modalistic argument here, there are many verses attesting to fact that The Father's Spirit and the Holy Spirit (parakletos, distinct from both bc it is sent by BOTH the son and Father) also indwell us. So then we have three distinct persons, but only one Spirit. How interesting.

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Again the wisdom of man has blinded you from seeing the wisdom of God.

I think i'm on much sounder Biblical ground than you t8. I have run away from none of your posts. I have never shirked an answer from you.

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That is why you do not understand the son. Jesus is the wisdom of God and if you do not understand him it is because your wisdom comes from man and not God.

A non-sequiter here. All things considered, I think it's you that doesn't understand a lot about Him, at all.

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It's going to be tough to prove from this verse that Christ had a pre-incarnation begettal. Speaks of the pre-incarnate Word, Israel is also called a Son of God, a “first born” one no less!

EXODUS 4:22,23
Then say to Pharaoh, “This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son, and I told you, 'Let my son go, so he may worship me.' But you refused to let him go; so I will kill your firstborn son.”

Biblical evidence t8. That's what would like.

November 20, 2005 at 7:56 am#10467

Participant

Correction:
I said:

I meant:
These “gods”, are they created or uncreated? Is Jesus created or uncreated. If the answers are “created” and “uncreated” resectively then is it fair to put Jesus and the “gods” in the same ontological category? I would be interested to have your thoughts here.

November 20, 2005 at 8:12 am#10469

Participant

Thanx Is 1:18,

Greek philosophy categorised things as created or uncreated and it has been said that Greek philosophy influenced Christian doctrine more than many think. If Greek philosophy is the frame by which we judge truth, then we have to ask the question, “was Jesus created ir uncreated”. Scripture appears to say that all created things came THROUGH Christ and therefore he wasn't created unless he was created through himself. So the answer appears to be no. So was Jesus not created, I would answer yes he wasn't created.

But from what I understand, Greek philosophy dictates that only God is uncreated, so using that philosophy we are left with the prospect that Jesus is God. However, it would be fair to say that Greek philosophy is not the frame work by which we judge or frame truth. For even Paul said that the Greeks seek wisdom but Paul gave them the foolishness of the gospel an offence to their proud minds.

Of course scripture is the frame work by which we judge a doctrine. Scripture says that Christ was the Word and the Word came from God. Jesus is the begotten son of God and he is neither God, nor the cosmos, or the created. He is the only one who is between God and creation and God and man. He is the only mediator between God and us.

God created all things though him and redeemed us through him. We are in touch with God through Christ. This is why Christ is unique and Greek philosophy was never going to understand this. Perhaps Pauls attitude of giving them the foolishness of God was what they needed to become humble and by being humble they may learn the truth which obviously existed ourside of their experience.

It may be possible that the Trinity doctrine borrowed heavily from Greek philosophy and hence the reason for forcing Christ into the category of uncreated God, (Yahweh).

November 20, 2005 at 8:18 am#10470

Participant

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t8 the lousy magician who bewitches with his stupid card tricks. my eyes are quicker than your hands, your slow hands.

To Soxan,

Believe it or not a heckler helps draw a crowd. I use to see this when preachers were preaching the gospel in a city square. These hecklers drew the crowds and then the crowds got to hear the gospel.

Might keep you here for a while Soxan. In a funny old way you give a bit of needed humour, even if it is at your own expense. But don't you think your soul is more important than making us laugh?

November 20, 2005 at 8:29 am#10471

Participant

I have drawn my conclusion that God is uncreated from the reading the Bible and applying simple logic (we are commanded to love God with our mind – remember?). The Bible teaches that “ALL things” were created by God. There must be a first cause, and, in the context of creation, that first cause must be, by definition, uncaused. Otherwise we have a fallacy in logic. That's not Greek philosophy, its plain common sense.

t8,
I would appreciate if you would pleases address the individual points I have made today – like I have done for you. Thanks.

November 20, 2005 at 8:44 am#10472

Participant

To Is 1:18,

If you want to talk about cause and effect, then scripture is quite plain that Jesus is not the source or cause, but the Father is. Jesus is the way or channel in which God caused all things to come into being, and that is why it says “through him” and regarding God “by him”. Jesus life, his words, his teaching, his doctrine, his creation all came from God our Father. Jesus imitated his God and demonstrated to us what God is like, but he wasn't that God whom he was declaring.

James 1:17
Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

Matthew 24:36
“No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

John 5:30
By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

1 Corinthians 15:27
27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

If you say that you came to the conclusion that God is uncreated from the reading the Bible and applying simple logic, then I think you must have missed out a lot of scripture to come to the conclusion that Jesus is the God that he is the son of. Personally that is why I think the word Father is used. A Father is the cause or source of the son, is he not?

November 20, 2005 at 8:44 am#10474

Participant

Also, we are told to honour our parents and Jesus honoured God in the same way.

November 20, 2005 at 8:55 am#10475

Participant

Hi ,
Micah 5.2
“From you[Bethlehem] one will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings are from long ago,from the days of eternity”

Jesus goes forth.
In Him God is ruler as in Zech 14.4
He is the vessel for God, as Spirit, to rule from.
He has a beginning ,long ago, from the days of eternity.

If Scripture wanted to say he had no beginning or was eternal it would have said so plainly. To be
“from long ago, from the days of eternity”
is another way of saying
“from the beginning”.
The beginning does not have time definition. But all this is saying is that he was from the beginning where we know he was with God.

November 20, 2005 at 9:02 am#10476

Participant

t8,
I look forward to your answers.

Good night.

November 20, 2005 at 9:51 am#10479

Participant

Hi Is 1:18,

I have kinda lost track a bit. Did you want me to give my opinions on the statements you made earlier regarding all that philosophical stuff about Christ?

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Please tell me where you find that Jesus was “begotten” in heaven BEFORE God used Mary. Jesus was not begotten until Mary came along.

I gave you the answer to the first one, where I showed Wisdom being born, and I can show you more, but I wonder if I am wasting my time in doing that, as I cannot see you conforming to scripture, if it doesn't align with your Trinity doctrine.

Anyway, did you now want me to show you where the son is mentioned before he came in the flesh? If so, I am a little puzzled because as far as I know, a proponent of the Trinity doctrine believes that the son existed before he came to earth.

Please make it clearer as to what you want? And I would also like to know if you are willing to change if scripture is shown to be different to what you believe?

Thanks, I look forward to your reply.

November 20, 2005 at 4:01 pm#10480