Who is this Jesus?

Participant

I am quoting the uncorrupted scriptures, with the Writings of the new testiment that do not contradict the Scriptures.

That is the weeding out process, It is quite simple.

Once again you ingore my points, and puff yourself up.

You are the one ignoring scriptures.

If you believed the bibles you read today, That is, without the old testiment. You would not find it hard to believe the trinity is real.

You claim that the disciples believed what you say, it is shown time and time again, that your idea is not true.

Your view is proven faulse for there is no such backup of that claim in the old testiment.

Open your eyes.

What about those who ignore, jesus was to ask GoD to send ANOTHER counsellor, What about those who ignore Jesus Said in the beggining GoD created earth and man, What about GoD saying that the one who created everything is GoD. If you believe jesus was used to create all things , then he is GoD. You ignore the scriptures.

July 13, 2004 at 2:25 am#3676

Participant

Hi all,
Just thought i'd chime in on this discussion and add my 5c worth:

On the issue of Jesus' pre-existence, I partially agree with T8 and I think for the main part the scriptural verses he used to support his view (in particular Jn 8:58) were cogent. I personally believe that the notion that He did not exist before His earthly life is unsupported by scripture, a dodgy exegesis to say the least. Micah 5:2 puts this issue to bed for me.

“But, thou, Beth-lehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from old, FROM EVERLASTING” (KJV, emphasis added).

However I dont agree that Jesus was created. Below is an answer a family member gave me in an email on this isssue and I totally concur with his reasoning:

“”C.S. Lewis writes in Mere Christianity, “To beget is to become the father of something; to create is to make something. When you beget something you beget something that is the same kind as yourself. A man begets human babies, and beaver begets beavers, and a bird begets eggs that become baby birds. But when you make, you make of a kind different from yourself. Birds make nests, beavers make dams, a man makes a wireless set…What God begets is God; just as what man begets is man. What God creates is not God; just as what man creates is not man.”

Having said that there is also the issue of whether the english word begotten is actually the best translation of the greek word.

– Begotten: the Greek word is monogenes and means “the only kin or kind, hence, the only.” In the way it was used in the Greek and the Hebrew it was never used to speak of generation or creation – meaning that it didn't mean that the begotten was generated or created- but it was a reference to a relationship and meant-unique, only beloved.

I've read this in a number of other places too. If you look at other instances of how it is tranlated elsewhere in the NT the meaning is as stated above.

So there are a couple of issues really: whether Christ is eternal (scripture would support this) and had some “begetting”, and whether the timing or nature of his begetting makes any difference (ie. at the beginning prior to times existence or at the timing of his human birth).

If you follow the reasoning of CS Lewis and assume that the begotten is the correct translation of the word, you could say that because God is eternal and “God begets God”, that Christ shares that eternalness. Also you could quite rightly say that the verse in Micah still holds true that Christ is FROM everlasting because his origin is from God.

If you take into account that the translation of the word begotten is not the best word for us to understand then the passages take on quite different meaning too.”

Also, on the issue of the title “first born”, could this not be a reference to his position or rank? Many believe it is, including me.

God Bless

July 13, 2004 at 5:49 am#3677

Participant

Firstly, I agree Jesus was in existance before his time on earth.

Seccondly T8 agree's with you on the poiint that you say that you disagree with him,, that is, the view that Jesus was not created. (unless he has changed his mind) For he beleives that you can be born without having a beggining.

Thirdly, Jesus is compared with Angels, created things. We are also made in GoD's image. This persons reasoning is flawed. Also, GoD gave jesus life – Jesus is not the originator or author.

Jesus is refered to as the Firstborn of the dead, as in, of things that were alive and that are now dead, then to be raised to life. The reserection.

GoD has also set eternity in the hearts of men, Just as Jesus has eternity because GoD gave him that. Jesus says GoD gave him the power. As in, not himself.

But Just as we have the availability, so did Jesus, Jesus only had what goD gave him, and only Did what he saw GoD do. Where is this special ability??? Jesus only had what GoD gave him, Just like all of us.

Also we are to do the same as Jesus, have the same power, be children of GoD.

To compare creatures that require both sex's to generate offspring, with GoD who just creates out of dirt. Is a flaw in thinking. GoD just creates, Begat because GoD created, god chose, as it says, “to which of the angels did GoD say, today you are my SoN”. As in It was a chioce GoD made, to make for himself someone to call his own Son.
Jesus is First born of the dead, made first over all creation , and may even be born before all other things in our creation, Yet as GoD says, He created all things by his own hands.

there is GoD, his father. He was however Born in heaven, and he was born on earth. Still not having his title, still not dead, only after he was raised he is called firstborn of the dead.

I hope that many will stop believing fantasies.

July 13, 2004 at 7:59 am#3678

Participant

Ringo111, where do I start?
Im not going to respond to this posting point by point because, having read some of your exchanges with T8 and noted your views on the authenticity of the NT, I believe it would be an exercise in futility. I will pray for you though my friend.

I would like to address one or two of your points, though:

You wrote:
“We are also made in GoD's image.”

Are we? a careful exegesis of Genesis 1-3 reveals God made ADAM in His image (Gen 1:26). Adam and Eve then proceeded to fall, the curse came and they become something quite different. You and I are made in the image of the fallen Adam, not God.

You wrote:
Where is this special ability??? Jesus only had what GoD gave him, Just like all of us.

In Phil 2:7 we read that Jesus ‘emptied’ himself (also see Heb 2:9). He had to relinquish certain privilages to achieve His mission (Jn 1:29). If he had not taken on a fully-human form (and with that the consequences of being fully-human) he would not have been able to be physically killed, for a start. He would not have fulfilled the law perfectly for us (Mat 5:17). Furthermore, we would not have a high priest who could sympathise with our weaknesses or One that was tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin (Heb 4:15). This explains why he did not have the omniscience that the Father has while he was on earth. However, even though He was being utterly obedient to the Father (to the point of death) while on earth, I don't agree that He forfeited His deity or had no special abilities outside of ours. Do you have the authority to forgive sins? are you allowed to recieve worship?

However, the more important issue for me is what were Jesus' attributes before His incarnation, and after His ascention? Look at the three prominent theophanies in the Old Testament (Gen 18, Ex 3 and Josh 5:13-15) and ask yourself: was Jesus just like us in these appearances? Look at Jesus in Revelation, will every knee bow to you?, or anyone else other than the “KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS”?

Further, its interesting that the great Biblical acts of God were attributed to both the Father and the Son. Some examples:

Creation:
Father; Job 38:4
Son; Col 1:16

Incarnation:
Father; Heb 10:P5
Son; Phil 2:7

Jesus' Death:
Father; Ps 22:15
Son; Jn 10:18

God Bless

July 14, 2004 at 3:58 am#3679

Participant

For starters, please dont feed off T8's hardened heart, and think yourself greater than the scriptures.
Please dont post only agreeing with what you want, without questioning your beliefs.
Just because of the opinion of someone who remotly agree's with you, you choose theyre stance. This of which you are doing is called, Bullying, Which is an unfair response, and you are only cheating yourself.
So urge you to think around what your doing. And not fall for the accusations that T8 has made. For as it seems, he has more faith in men, than GoD. Murderous men at that.

A spiritual man discerns all things, as in tests all things. Now, Using that principle, that is layed clearly in the New Testiment. If something is proven by the scriptures and parables, then it is true. But if something is contrary one is lie one is truth, or both are a lie. Knowing that currupt men have been in controll of the bible for centuries, and that there are many translations. And that in the New Testiment, there are warnings about those, who distort the scriptures(old Testiment) The same for any whiting. It is obvious that men change things to controll or because they are influenced by satan, who has hundreds of years of scheeming.

Jesus himself said, You look for life in the scriptures, But I would give you life, If youd come to me. The same today, Jesus asked GoD to send the holy spirit, to continue jesus work. Now the scriptures(Old Testiment) point and validate Jesus, and Jesus testimony Validates the Holy spirit to us. But without them we would still be able to recieve life, For the holy spirit was sent to convict the whole world, and continue Jesus work of making the Kingdom of GoD known.

*now to answer your points.

On the matter of us being in GoD's image

GoD only cursed when they were disobediant, he did not change what he had made. GoD said “they have become like us” (the heavenly beings) that know good and evil. Think about it, How can someone in the image of GoD become more like GoD?? It is because Adam was first made on a physical level in GoD's likeness, and in the heavenly beings likeness. We actually became more like GoD in the fall. But because of it, GoD cursed the land, and the people.

*****************

On the matter of Jesus only receiving what GoD gives him, Just like us.

*Jesus was Commanded, to leave what he had.

As for your theory that Jesus had to experiance our pain, and sin struggle, for GoD to understand it, Is insane, a trinitarian teaching that is opposing to the bible. GoD created us and knows what he created. Therefore Jesus also knew, because GoD told him what to say and how to say it.

John 2
24But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he knew all men. 25He did not need man's testimony about man, for he knew what was in a man.

John 14:1
“Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God[ 14:1 Or You trust in God] ; trust also in me.

Jesus continually refered to GoD , as a 'him', and seperate from himself. He does not refer to GoD as a 'They'.

***************************

You said that these scriptures were similar attributes shared by both, Jesus and who you call the father, who Jesus calls his GoD.

Quote

Creation:
Father; Job 38:4

Job 38
4 “Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.

* God set the foundations. Notice when 'I', as in one person.

Quote

Son; Col 1:16

Colossians 1
16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
* Mistranslation, No-where in the OT is such a view supported, and in direct contradiction to many in the NT. For GoD and Jesus, and the prophets, all say that GoD created earth and heavens. By his own hands.

Quote

Incarnation:
Father; Heb 10:P5

Did you mean- heb 10:15 or heb 10:5 ,
*either way Both have nothing to Do with the father (sounds like you just a few scriptures to look good?)
Heb 10:12
12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God.

Quote

Son; Phil 2:7

Phil 2:7

7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature[1] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.

*As obediance to GoD , jesus left his position in heaven. Otherwise GoD says in spalms, If his soul shrinks back, I have no pleasure in him. The disciples saw this scripture, and compared Jesus to us, and saw Shriks back as meaning, to be Destroyed by GoD. Jusus was under this posibility, Jesus can be Destroyed. therefore he is a created thing and not GoD.

Hebrews 10
38But my righteous one[6] will live by faith.
And if he shrinks back,
I will not be pleased with him.”[7] 39But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.

Quote

Jesus' Death:
Father; Ps 22:15

Psalm 22
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me [1] in the dust of death.

*This is a prophecy of Jesus suffering, and not a common attribute shared by GoD and Jesus.
Why dont you read the prophecy, You will see Jesus is a Man, who calls to his GoD. He also does in revelation.
Why dont you read the rest of the prophecy.
PS 22:10
10 From birth I was cast upon you;
from my mother's womb you have been my God.

Quote

Son; Jn 10:18

John 10
18No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”

* precicly my point, Jesus recieves his Commands from GoD. Just like if any of us had recieved that command.

I hope you found it interesting.

July 14, 2004 at 8:26 am#3680

Participant

Hi Ringo111
You and I are diametrically opposed in both our thought processes and theologies and I honestly cant see how we can continue this exchange without it getting nasty. Im also starting to become acutely conscious of my own witness to truth seekers and new christians who might visit these message boards….so much bickering and arguing. Hard to see the love of God in it. So lets agree to disagree.
Your brother in Christ.

July 16, 2004 at 7:34 am#3681

Proclaimer

Participant

Thx Is 1:18,

I think this is a wise thing to do.

July 17, 2004 at 1:23 pm#3682

Participant

Quote

Lets look at the love of GoD,

GoD set up a people, told them to kill, sacrifice.

Then GoD set up Jesus, to say that they are wrong. With many opposing arguments. Saying that those who keep to the old way will suffer forever. Aswell, as the healings.

Please revise your view of the love of GoD.

It is your choice to ignore what is said, but when it is said to you and you ignore it, GoD will judge you for it.

These forums are for communication's of idea's.

You stated what you believed, I stated what I have. You have then written a political piece to make out that your idea's are more correct because you see it as a non contest.

But that is the way of the world, For the world believes there are many truths for the one truth. That two bannana's to one person, is twenty to another. They are blinded by the stupidity spoonfed them.

Now when you say

Quote

I honestly cant see how we can continue this exchange without it getting nasty

We have been shown quite openly and demonstrated time and again by Jesus and his disciples, and others in the New testiment, that it is the cause of a christian, not to get “nasty”.
By you saying that, it shows to me, just what sort of person you are. Because, Jesus and the disciples show that it is the godly way to exchange in idea's, without becoming “nasty”. On the other hand, It was the unbelievers who were the nasty one's, who would bind them up with ropes and send them to prison, aswell as get 'nasty', as you say.

I have ripped apart your understandings with Bible. Now, you choose to ignore?? That is a sad path, the way of destruction, but at the very highest, the way of the least of the Kingdom of heaven. Because

Matthew 5:19
Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

*************************

When all is said and done, whether ppl listen or not, Its always good to sit back and think…

quoting me “As for me, I will do what is GoD wants.”

Simple things, give to poor, return insult with blessing, Give to the one who asks you, on the side of justice. Yer.

****************************

Serious, if you have any reason to think other than what I have written, plz say so, I want truth, and I know that truth comes through all types of ppl.

I am 22 years old, and not an old man, who has a website that has been formed around truth(a lot of it) mixed with lies. Although is enough by itself, to point to the right path.

Please, Just ask GoD about it, ask him to send the holy spirit to guide you into all truth. Ask him, If jesus was really used as a vessel for creation. Ask him to empty out any lies. Please, pray that. and you will be on the right path.

For, jesus said. You have not, because you ask not.

*****************

For some reason, as it seems, T8 thinks im not sinceer?? Im not playing around.

ask GoD for truth, plz, plz, plz dont fall for not questioning, for a spiritual man, discerns all things. Plz keep that in mind, GoD is there for anyone who calls out.

And t8, plz ask GoD, all that too, plz ask him.. GoD, Is my heart hard?? please if it is, please make me open to all of your truth, Please guide me to be totally open to everything you have for me.

Somthing like that. and my lil saying under my name is good too.

Do you ask that T8 Do you??? Please, If you dont, Plz ask GoD. Plz. plzzzz.

l8rz

August 1, 2004 at 10:35 pm#3683

Participant

At the end of Revelation Jesus makes a statement about Himself
” I am the Alpha and the Omega,the first and the last, the beginning and the end”

This statement is also made in similar but different ways in
Is 41.4 ” I am the Lord, am the first and with the last. I am He”
Is 44.6 ” I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides Me”
Is 48,12 ” I am He, I am the first, I am also the last”

The words first and last may be time oriented rather than statements about eternity-I am not sure. Now the Jews were unfamiliar with Jesus and would have taken these statements to be about the Father. But the later chapters of Isaiah are full of information about Jesus-the suffering servant.

Are these to be attributed to Jesus or does it emphasise the incredible unity between the Father and Son as expressed in John from chapter 8 to 17 and also in the terms “almighty God and everlasting Father applied to Jesus also in Isaiah? Do their names become interchangeable though their roles and authority differ?

October 1, 2004 at 6:09 pm#3684

Participant

Hi Is 1.18,

You use the word theophany to suggest that Jesus came to be on eath prior to his birth in Bethlehem.

October 1, 2004 at 6:50 pm#3685

Participant

Jn 1 .1
” IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD; THE WORD WAS IN GOD'S PRESENCE AND THE WORD WAS GOD. HE WAS PRESENT TO GOD IN THE BEGINNING .THROUGH HIM ALL THINGS CAME INTO BEING AND APART FROM HIM NOTHING CAME TO BE..”
v10
” HE WAS IN THE WORLD AND THROUGH HIM THE WORLD WAS MADE.THE WORLD DID NOT KNOW WHO HE WAS “
V 14
” THE WORD BECAME FLESH AND MADE HIS DWELLING AMONG US ,AND WE HAVE SEEN HIS GLORY: THE GLORY OF AN ONLY SON COMING FROM THE FATHER FILLED WITH ENDURING LOVE.”
1 Jn 11-3
“This is what we proclaim to you: what WAS FROM THE BEGINNING, what we have heard,what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked upon and our hands have touched-WE SPEAK OF THE WORD OF LIFE. [ THIS LIFE BECAME VISIBLE; we have seen and bear witness to it ,and we proclaim to you THE ETERNAL LIFE THAT WAS PRESENT TO THE FATHER AND BECAME VISIBLE TO US ]What we have seen and heard we proclaim in turn to you so that you may share life with us. This fellowship of ours is with the Father and with His Son, JESUS CHRIST.”
Heb 2.16
” Surely He did not come to help angels but rather the children of Abraham. therefore HE HAD TO BECOME LIKE HIS BROTHERS IN EVERY WAY ,that He might be a merciful high priest before God on their behalf.

I see some who are posting say Jesus did not exist prior to His physical birth but these verses show clearly that He did -from the beginning-which is before time began.

To say Jesus came to earth in Gen18, Ex 3 and Josh 5 is to go beyond the revealed truth into unwise speculation and presumption. It also is ruled out by the revelation that Jesus was like to us in every way. If He had walked among men prior to His birth He would always have an advantage over us and could not be a true example for us.

These speculations arise from those teachers who do not rely solely on the word for their doctrines and we need to decide to put such men aside to rely solely on what is clearly and simply taught by scripture if we are ever to be useful to our Master.

2Tim 3.13
” But all the while evil men and charlatans will go from bad to worse, deceiving others , themselves deceived. You, for your part MUST REMAIN FAITHFUL TO WHAT YOU HAVE LEARNED AND BELIEVED, BECUASE YOU KNOW WHO YOUR TEACHERS WERE. Likewise from your infancy you have known THE SACRED SCRIPTURES, THE SOURCE OF THE WISDOM WHICH THROUGH FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST LEADS TO SALVATION. ALL SCRIPTURE IS INSPIRED OF GOD AND IS USEFUL FOR TEACHING -FOR REPROOF, CORRECTION AND TRAINING IN HOLINESS SO THAT THE MAN OF GOD MAY BE FULLY EQUIPPED FOR EVERY GOOD WORK”.

October 2, 2004 at 7:36 am#3686

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 01 2004,13:50)

Hi NH,
Do these scriptures discount Christs entitlement to all previous human experiences to fulfil His mission? If He is truely God then He would know all our thoughts, sufferings etc anyway – He is omniscient isn't He? What difference does it make if he visited earth a few times in OT times? I don't understand where you are coming from.

Although this mysterious visitor was often mistaken for a man He obviously didn't have a 'human' body – so couldn't gain that insight anyway. Angels are mistaken for men (Heb 13:1), couldn't the LORD also take on this human-like form? These can't be mere angels BTW they were worshipped and angels simply won't allow that.

Haven't been posting much lately bc im reading the whole Trinity thread (only 50 odd pages to go!) and the Gospel of John with 'fresh eyes' (as t8 would say). Thought it was only fair to do this before i continue posting on this topic.

God Bless
Is 1:18

October 2, 2004 at 7:51 am#3687

Participant

Whoa there Is
, You are coming up with some new ideas here and this is what happens when you take the path of strange teachings like trinity.
Now where did you read in the bible that Jesus always knows peoples thoughts and is 'Omnipotent”? You didn't. These are ideas that come out of a denomination's nonsense. We can only know about Jesus what is revealed about Him and these were not revealed.
“If He is fully God “has lead you to attribute characters to Jesus only belonging to the Father.That is the problem of confusing Him with His Father.
Where I am comong from is the need to stay with what can be proved and leave empty speculations to empty headed theologians.

October 2, 2004 at 8:15 am#3688

Participant

Haven't got time to do a full search….
Omniscience
John 21:17, Revelation 2:23

Omnipotence
Ephesians 3:20, Philippians 3:20-21, Colossians 2:10, Hebrews 1:3

If Jesus is God, as you say He is, then He cannot by definition be limited in any way (post ascention). Otherwise He is not God.

October 2, 2004 at 9:10 am#3689

Participant

Hi Is,
You define God according to human standards and are trying to put God in a box. You can't say ” if Jesus is God then he can't be limited in any way by [man's] definition ”
because the only God whose abilities you know, and can compare with, is the Father.
You can't assume Jesus is the same in every way as the Father. That is that old trinity equality thing. Jesus is not the Father and has certain amazing appointed roles and abilities but you cannot assume they are the same as the Father's .

Yes .Jesus knows his church as they are part of Him, the body of Christ so that is why he says that in Rev 2. Peter says Jesus knows everything -well when Jesus was on earth He was filled with the gifts of the Holy Spirit so he did tell the woman at the well she had had a few husbands and He told Peter to catch a fish to get a penny.

Words like Omniscience and Omnipotence belong to theologians. They are not in the bible and don't help us know God. They limit understanding rather than clarify knowledge, as again they try to put God in a box. For example it is one thing to say God's can do immeasurably more than we ask or imagine as it says in Eph 3.20 but to turn that into Omniscience is limiting and unhelpful.

Yes Jesus can subject everything to Himself as it says in Phil 3.20…but the Father is not subject to Him.
Coll 2.10 says Jesus is head of every principality and power. but remember the Father is the head of Jesus.
Yes as in Heb 1.3Jesus sustains all things by His powerful Word but the Father is greater than Him .

Jesus is God but is not the Father and has different roles and abilities, and the Father is greater than Jesus so they are not equal.

October 2, 2004 at 12:36 pm#3690

Proclaimer

Participant

Jesus is the mighty god, but the Father is the Almighty God.
All images of God are gods. We are gods. The angels are gods. Jesus is the image of God. We were created in the image of God. We were created by God through Christ.

If we are gods, then why are we not limited? Because we are not the Most High God. Nor is Christ. He is God's son, the image of his Father.

October 2, 2004 at 6:16 pm#3691

Participant

Hi Is,
God is not scientifically definable and theologians try to define Him and finish up muddying the water and causing more confusion.

For example using their little human boxes:
The Father is God. God , by definition, is omniscient and omnipotent.

Jesus is God. So Jesus is omniscient and omnipotent too.

So it could be concluded that
Jesus is the same as the Father WRONG
And Jesus is also equal to the Father WRONG

God does not fit in our little boxes. So it is necessary to throw away the boxes and stick to the inspired Word of God.

October 2, 2004 at 9:29 pm#3692

Participant

NH
Im not putting God in a box. Im simply applying the attributes that the Bible clearly teaches about Him, universally accepted ones. If I were putting Him in a box then have given you an exhaustive list of them and explained the implications of each. Everyone knows God is infinite and limitless – this isn't some new, radical teaching here. It's christianity 101.

October 2, 2004 at 9:43 pm#3593

Participant

Hi Is,
Words like Omnipotent are endpoints. They are perfection and infinite and cannot be surpassed or reduced. They do not allow interpretation,comparison or variation. In that way they are a box.

Jesus said the Father was His God and the Father was greater than him. Can that mean He is less omnipotent than the Father??or is every omnipotent being equal “By definition?”

October 2, 2004 at 9:58 pm#3594