Who is this Jesus?

[NickHassan]

Quote (Guest @ July 27 2005,22:46)

Quote (Guest @ July 27 2005,22:29) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 27 2005,22:17) Quote (Cubes @ July 27 2005,21:48) Hi all: Time out! What's with the different guest names and copious posts?  I think that we are all passionate and want to share what's on our hearts and construct/defend our arguments scripturally.  Good.  But I think the pace and volume together is taking away from that purpose. I don't know about you but it takes me time to pore over things… and when posts are flying around my ears left and right, then I largely miss what is being said.  So if I haven't responded to anything addressed to me, it's not for lack of having anything to say but just trying to catch up that's all. I think in the interest of truth, we should resolve to slow down the pace a bit, one or two points over a period of time to give people a chance to respond, before moving on to the next…expecially when the posts are long.  IAR, I am still on next week so don't be in haste alright?  Sorry.  Some of us are just slower. Take care. Hi cubes, Yes one or two are apparently assuming several aliases to hide behind to give the impression that they have widespread support for their obtuse understandings. They also use the avalanche technique to pour in repeated information. It will mean logging in may be required. I would log in but I'm just here to ask a few questions, and as I'm not staying, I didn't wish to log on, and I am the same guest and 'guest just visiting', who is asking you these questions. As I see you have other 'guests' I am -…visiting. I agree we are made in the image and likeness of God, and that is why the death penality was instigated by God after the flood for those who shed man's blood, for our bodies are made by Him, and our life, in our blood, is not as the animal kingdom that we are the lords of, but He is the Lord of us. But if we are still sons of God, why must we be born again to become sons of God and why are we called dead? Sir, Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. Why couldn’t any of the sons of Adam come? Why does it say, and satan also came among them? Satan is fallen, also, why is he there, as an ’also’ but not a son of God;  but  none of Adam’s offspring are there? Why must we be born again, and have a new spirit, to be His sons? -which is what must happen if we are to be His sons, by His Spirit, creating a new spirit within us? Why are we dead and without that Spirit that makes us His sons? Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

Hi,
The sons of God through Adam have weak perishable human bodies and do not and cannot dwell in heaven where the Lord and his other sons [The Son, and archangels-Gen 6]dwell.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Guest @ July 27 2005,22:02)

Quote (Guest @ July 27 2005,21:31) Quote (Guest @ July 27 2005,21:25) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 27 2005,21:17) Quote (Guest @ July 27 2005,20:59) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 27 2005,19:40) Quote (Guest @ July 27 2005,19:08) Quote (Guest @ July 27 2005,18:03) Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible Isaiah 6 Lord–here Adonai, Jehovah in Isa 6:5; Jesus Christ is meant as speaking in Isa 6:10, according to Joh 12:41. Isaiah could only have “seen” the Son, not the divine essence (Joh 1:18). The words in Isa 6:10 are attributed by Paul (Ac 28:25, 26) to the Holy Ghost. Thus the Trinity in unity is implied; as also by the thrice “Holy” (Isa 6:3). Isaiah mentions the robes, temple, and seraphim, but not the form of God Himself. Whatever it was, it was different from the usual Shekinah: that was on the mercy seat, this on a throne; that a cloud and fire, of this no form is specified: over that were the cherubim, over this the seraphim; that had no clothing, this had a flowing robe and train. http://www.studylight.org/com….#Isa6_1 “Man was created in the image and likeness of God as he is revealed in Christ, who is the image of the invisible God (Gen. 1:26; Col. 1:15). Adam was created in the image of God in the form and constitution of his body and his human nature. That is to say, the first Adam was formed in the image of him who was to come as the second Adam, Christ, the God-man. Adam did not crawl out of a slime pit, or drop out of a tree. He was created in the image of Christ, who is the image of God. The Son of God came to be partaker of our flesh and blood, that we might be partakers of his flesh and of his bones (Eph. 5:30). “ http://www.sovereigngraceofgod.com/sermons/df-gen07.htm The image of God that Adam was made in is the image of the human body of the LORD Jesus Christ, that was to come, (Colossians 1:15) who is YHWH in His human nature, in His new human tabernacle, which He humbled Himself to 'put on', from the womb of the virgin  as new creation human being man who would be Kinsman-Redeemer. Hi, A little adding to scripture here. Yes God said in Genesis ” Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness” Yes Collosians says of Christ ” He is the image of the invisible God, thje firstborn of all creation” But scripture does not identify the 'us' as God and the Son of God. That is prsumption. Neither does it say that man is made in the image of the Son. Just because the Son is the image of the Father does not prove we are the image of the Son. That is presumption. Neither is Christ ever called the “God-Man”. He is of divine nature, even the exact representation of His nature but he is an “image” of God and we cannot derive that he is a part of God from whom he was begotten ,or a God-Man or any sort of deity as himself. The fullness of deity was dwelling “in him”not, as him[Coll2.19]. That goes beyone presumption into falsehood. John 12 41 explains that it was not God who was seen so scripture is not broken-it was “His Glory”. It is not the same thing. To say it must have been the Son is to go beyond scripture into vain and false speculation. Please stay with what is revealed. Sir; you said, “Neither does it say that man is made in the image of the Son. Just because the Son is the image of the Father does not prove we are the image of the Son. That is presumption.” Not true! Adam was made in the image of God. Adam was the image, form, pattern, print, of Him -Jesus Christ- that was to come. Adam son of Gd; Luke 3:38 Adam fallen, separated, without the Spirit of the living God within is dead, but exists, whether in the body or out of the body, and is not son of Elohim since the fall. The Word of Gd says, “Gen 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. A search finds that Adam was made in the exact pattern of  Gd, who is Jesus Christ, who is the LORD of hosts from heaven in flesh. Figure -tupos AV – ensample 5, print 2, figure 2, example 2, pattern 2, fashion 1, manner 1, form 1; 16 Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 16 AV – ensample 5, print 2, figure 2, example 2, pattern 2, fashion 1, manner 1, form 1; 16  Hi, Jesus Christ is not the God of the OT. He is the Son of that God. He said so and we believe him. Sir, Do you believe the Scriptures that Adam was made as the [human] son of God? Sir, Do you believe that holy thing which was born of Mary was a human Son of God, as the WORD of God says? Luke 1:31, 35 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. Sir, whose voice did Israel hear, in Deuteronomy 4:33? Did any people ever hear the voice of God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as you have heard, and live? (Dt. 4:33) And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form (John 5:37). And you said: Surely the LORD our God has shown us His glory and His greatness, and we have heard His voice from the midst of the fire. We have seen this day that God speaks with man; yet he still lives. Now therefore, why should we die? For this great fire will consume us; if we hear the voice of the LORD our God anymore, then we shall die. For who is there of all flesh who has heard the voice of the living God speaking from the midst of the fire, as we have, a nd lived? (Dt. 5:24-26)

Hi,
They heard the voice of God just as the disciples did at the baptism of Jesus and on the mountain.

Only certain selected groups are protected by God from the normal impact of His direct association with men. This blessing does not apply to mankind.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Guest @ July 27 2005,22:40)

Quote (Guest @ July 27 2005,22:29) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 27 2005,22:17) Quote (Cubes @ July 27 2005,21:48) Hi all: Time out! What's with the different guest names and copious posts?  I think that we are all passionate and want to share what's on our hearts and construct/defend our arguments scripturally.  Good.  But I think the pace and volume together is taking away from that purpose. I don't know about you but it takes me time to pore over things… and when posts are flying around my ears left and right, then I largely miss what is being said.  So if I haven't responded to anything addressed to me, it's not for lack of having anything to say but just trying to catch up that's all. I think in the interest of truth, we should resolve to slow down the pace a bit, one or two points over a period of time to give people a chance to respond, before moving on to the next…expecially when the posts are long.  IAR, I am still on next week so don't be in haste alright?  Sorry.  Some of us are just slower. Take care. Hi cubes, Yes one or two are apparently assuming several aliases to hide behind to give the impression that they have widespread support for their obtuse understandings. They also use the avalanche technique to pour in repeated information. It will mean logging in may be required. I would log in but I'm just here to ask a few questions, and as I'm not staying, I didn't wish to log on, and I am the same guest and 'guest just visiting', who is asking you these questions. As I see you have other 'guests' I am -…visiting. I agree we are made in the image and likeness of God, and that is why the death penality was instigated by God after the flood for those who shed man's blood, for our bodies are made by Him, and our life, in our blood, is not as the animal kingdom that we are the lords of, but He is the Lord of us. But if we are still sons of God, why must we be born again to become sons of God and why are we called dead? Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. Why couldn’t any of the sons of Adam come? Why does it say, “and satan also came among them”? S atan is fallen, also, why is he there, as an ’also’, but not a son of God, when none of Adam’s offspring are there and not one is representing the human race there? Why must we be born again, and have a new spirit, to be His sons? -which is His Spirit, created within us? Why are we dead and without that Spirit that makes us His sons? Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

Hi,
It does not say Satan was not a son of God. It says he was among them and that might suggest he was. He surely was an archangel too?

[NickHassan]

Quote (Guest @ July 27 2005,22:29)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 27 2005,22:17) Quote (Cubes @ July 27 2005,21:48) Hi all: Time out! What's with the different guest names and copious posts?  I think that we are all passionate and want to share what's on our hearts and construct/defend our arguments scripturally.  Good.  But I think the pace and volume together is taking away from that purpose. I don't know about you but it takes me time to pore over things… and when posts are flying around my ears left and right, then I largely miss what is being said.  So if I haven't responded to anything addressed to me, it's not for lack of having anything to say but just trying to catch up that's all. I think in the interest of truth, we should resolve to slow down the pace a bit, one or two points over a period of time to give people a chance to respond, before moving on to the next…expecially when the posts are long.  IAR, I am still on next week so don't be in haste alright?  Sorry.  Some of us are just slower. Take care. Hi cubes, Yes one or two are apparently assuming several aliases to hide behind to give the impression that they have widespread support for their obtuse understandings. They also use the avalanche technique to pour in repeated information. It will mean logging in may be required. I would log in but I'm just here to ask a few questions, and as I'm not staying, I didn't wish to log on, and I am the same guest and 'guest just visiting', who is asking you these questions. As I see you have other 'guests' I am -…visiting. I agree we are made in the image and likeness of God, and that is why the death penality was instigated by God after the flood for those who shed man's blood, for our bodies are made by Him, and our life, in our blood, is not as the animal kingdom that we are the lords of, but He is the Lord of us. But if we are still sons of God, why must we be born again to become sons of God and why are we called dead?

Hi,
The Jews rightly claimed they were sons of God[yet wanted to kill Jesus for saying he was]
Some of the Jews claimed a relationship with God through Abraham and Moses. Jesus called them sons of the Devil as it is he they followed. Such is death.

Sons of Adam and Moses and Abraham are born.

“Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God”1Cor 15 50.

Jesus also said in Jn 3.6
” That which is born of the flesh is flesh”

That is why we must be born AGAIN of water and the Holy Spirit. We must go through the gate and be reborn INTO the Son of God himself for eternal life is IN the Son[1Jn5].The new sons of God are IN The Son of God. No other sonship brings salvation to men.

For there is no other name in heaven and earth by which we can be saved.

[Anonymous]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 27 2005,23:10)

<!–QuoteBegin–Guest+ [/quote–> Quote (Guest @ [/quote) quote] Sir, whose voice did Israel hear, in Deuteronomy 4:33? Did any people ever hear the voice of God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as you have heard, and live? (Dt. 4:33) And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form (John 5:37). And you said: Surely the LORD our God has shown us His glory and His greatness, and we have heard His voice from the midst of the fire. We have seen this day that God speaks with man; yet he still lives. Now therefore, why should we die? For this great fire will consume us; if we hear the voice of the LORD our God anymore, then we shall die. For who is there of all flesh who has heard the voice of the living God speaking from the midst of the fire, as we have, and lived? (Dt. 5:24-26) Hi, They heard the voice of God just as the disciples did at the baptism of Jesus and on the mountain. Only certain selected groups are protected by God from the normal impact of His direct association with men. This blessing does not apply to mankind.

Sir,
Jesus is speaking to the Jews, and He said to the Jews that they had never heard the Father’s voice at any time -all the way back to Moses in the beginning- nor had they seen His form, all the way back to the beginning.

18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. 19 Then Jesus answered and said to them,
37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. 38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. 39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.”

So if the Jews, the nation of Israel, had not heard the voice of the Father at any time, then whose voice did they hear?

Deu 4:12 And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only [ye heard] a voice.

Deu 4:33 Did [ever] people hear the voice of God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as thou hast heard, and live?
Deu 4:36 Out of heaven he made thee to hear his voice, that he might instruct thee: and upon earth he shewed thee his great fire; and thou heardest his words out of the midst of the fire.

Deu 5:22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.

Deu 5:23 And it came to pass, when ye heard the voice out of the midst of the darkness, (for the mountain did burn with fire,) that ye came near unto me, [even] all the heads of your tribes, and your elders;

“So if the Jews, the nation of Israel, had not heard the voice of the Father at any time, then whose voice did they hear?”

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Was he speaking to the disciples?They had heard the voice of God.
It is important to check just who the intended audience is when Jesus is recorded as speaking.

He spoke to the general public.
He spoke to his disciples.
He spoke to individuals.

[Anonymous]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 27 2005,23:12)

Quote (Guest @ July 27 2005,22:40) Quote (Guest @ July 27 2005,22:29) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 27 2005,22:17) Quote (Cubes @ July 27 2005,21:48) Hi all: Time out! What's with the different guest names and copious posts?  I think that we are all passionate and want to share what's on our hearts and construct/defend our arguments scripturally.  Good.  But I think the pace and volume together is taking away from that purpose. I don't know about you but it takes me time to pore over things… and when posts are flying around my ears left and right, then I largely miss what is being said.  So if I haven't responded to anything addressed to me, it's not for lack of having anything to say but just trying to catch up that's all. I think in the interest of truth, we should resolve to slow down the pace a bit, one or two points over a period of time to give people a chance to respond, before moving on to the next…expecially when the posts are long.  IAR, I am still on next week so don't be in haste alright?  Sorry.  Some of us are just slower. Take care. Hi cubes, Yes one or two are apparently assuming several aliases to hide behind to give the impression that they have widespread support for their obtuse understandings. They also use the avalanche technique to pour in repeated information. It will mean logging in may be required. I would log in but I'm just here to ask a few questions, and as I'm not staying, I didn't wish to log on, and I am the same guest and 'guest just visiting', who is asking you these questions. As I see you have other 'guests' I am -…visiting. I agree we are made in the image and likeness of God, and that is why the death penality was instigated by God after the flood for those who shed man's blood, for our bodies are made by Him, and our life, in our blood, is not as the animal kingdom that we are the lords of, but He is the Lord of us. But if we are still sons of God, why must we be born again to become sons of God and why are we called dead? Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. Why couldn’t any of the sons of Adam come? Why does it say, “and satan also came among them”? S atan is fallen, also, why is he there, as an ’also’, but not a son of God, when none of Adam’s offspring are there and not one is representing the human race there? Why must we be born again, and have a new spirit, to be His sons? -which is His Spirit, created within us? Why are we dead and without that Spirit that makes us His sons? Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Hi, It does not say Satan was not a son of God. It says he was among them and that might suggest he was. He surely was an archangel too?

Where does the word of God call Satan a son of God?

Where does the word of God call Satan an archangel?

He is a fallen cherub, which is also called a beast, in the Word, but he is not a messenger of the Lord, nor is he a son of God.

What is it that makes a created being a son of God?
What makes a created son of God not a son of God, but a former son?

We see him only after his rebellion (which happened about as fast after creation as Adam's, as all was very good after the six days), so Satan and Adam fell fast, and the human son of God is not represented before the sons of God, among the sons of god, when we see them assemble in Job, to give accounting.

Satan does transform himself into an angel of light, the word says, but he is not an angel of light.
2Cr 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
He pretends to be an angel of light.

[Anonymous]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 27 2005,23:52)

Hi, Was he speaking to the disciples?They had heard the voice of God. It is important to check just who the intended audience is when Jesus is recorded as speaking. He spoke to the general public. He spoke to his disciples. He spoke to individuals.

Please read the passage, He was not speaking to the disciples, He was speaking to the Jews, those who comprised the authority over the 'vineyard' of the Father that they had been entrusted with.

[Anonymous]

Quote (Guest @ July 27 2005,23:53)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 27 2005,23:12) Quote (Guest @ July 27 2005,22:40) Quote (Guest @ July 27 2005,22:29) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 27 2005,22:17) Quote (Cubes @ July 27 2005,21:48) Hi all: Time out! What's with the different guest names and copious posts?  I think that we are all passionate and want to share what's on our hearts and construct/defend our arguments scripturally.  Good.  But I think the pace and volume together is taking away from that purpose. I don't know about you but it takes me time to pore over things… and when posts are flying around my ears left and right, then I largely miss what is being said.  So if I haven't responded to anything addressed to me, it's not for lack of having anything to say but just trying to catch up that's all. I think in the interest of truth, we should resolve to slow down the pace a bit, one or two points over a period of time to give people a chance to respond, before moving on to the next…expecially when the posts are long.  IAR, I am still on next week so don't be in haste alright?  Sorry.  Some of us are just slower. Take care. Hi cubes, Yes one or two are apparently assuming several aliases to hide behind to give the impression that they have widespread support for their obtuse understandings. They also use the avalanche technique to pour in repeated information. It will mean logging in may be required. I would log in but I'm just here to ask a few questions, and as I'm not staying, I didn't wish to log on, and I am the same guest and 'guest just visiting', who is asking you these questions. As I see you have other 'guests' I am -…visiting. I agree we are made in the image and likeness of God, and that is why the death penality was instigated by God after the flood for those who shed man's blood, for our bodies are made by Him, and our life, in our blood, is not as the animal kingdom that we are the lords of, but He is the Lord of us. But if we are still sons of God, why must we be born again to become sons of God and why are we called dead? Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. Why couldn’t any of the sons of Adam come? Why does it say, “and satan also came among them”? S atan is fallen, also, why is he there, as an ’also’, but not a son of God, when none of Adam’s offspring are there and not one is representing the human race there? Why must we be born again, and have a new spirit, to be His sons? -which is His Spirit, created within us? Why are we dead and without that Spirit that makes us His sons? Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Hi, It does not say Satan was not a son of God. It says he was among them and that might suggest he was. He surely was an archangel too? Where does the word of God call Satan a son of God? Where does the word of God call Satan an archangel? He is a fallen cherub, which is also called a beast, in the Word, but he is not a messenger of the Lord, nor is he a son of God. What is it that makes a created being a son of God? What makes a created son of God not a son of God, but a former son? We see him only after his rebellion (which happened about as fast after creation as Adam's, as all was very good after the six days), so Satan and Adam fell fast, and the human son of God is not represented before the sons of God, among the sons of god, when we see them assemble in Job, to give accounting. Satan does transform himself into an angel of light, the word says, but he is not an angel of light. 2Cr 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.   He pretends to be an angel of light.

This was my post.
Something happened. I had writtten guest just visiting in the title???

[Anonymous]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 27 2005,23:35)

Guest,July wrote: [quote=Nick Hassan,July 27 2005,22:17] Cubes,July wrote: Hi all: The Jews rightly claimed they were sons of God[yet wanted to kill Jesus for saying he was] Some of the Jews claimed a relationship with God through Abraham and Moses. Jesus called them sons of the Devil as it is he they followed. Such is death.

Where did the Jews call themselves the sons of God?

[Anonymous]

Quote (epistemaniac @ July 27 2005,22:37)

Quote (vicalcabasa @ July 27 2005,02:04) Quote (epistemaniac @ July 26 2005,22:26) t8, you said “The point is that even if he were equal to God as you are saying then that shows that he is not God. If you are equal to anything then it shows that you are not that thing you are equal too.” Exactly! The point here is that while Jesus is equal to God in regard to His essence, He and the Father are not the same in identity. That is, the Father is not the Son. “E.g., If you come first EQUAL in a race, does that mean that both racers were the same person?” Faulty analogy. God’s nature is utterly unique as to His essence or nature, and thus any attempt to equate God’s nature  with a human footrace is bound to fall short, it happens rather quickly in this case. “If 1 bar of Gold is equal to $5000.00, then are they the same object? Of course not.” This is a confusion of categories. You are taking a physical object, in this case gold, and attempting to show that the ontological and metaphysical categories I am speaking in do not correspond. And while you are correct, it is also irrelevant. In this case a metaphysical being, a being that is spirit, can be spoken of as having one essence while this essence can be at the same time spoken of being in 3 persons without “breaking” the essence itself. And this is where your analogy falls apart, you can't speak of a physical object as being itself (A) and not being itself (~A) , for the object is restricted to a time and space existence, and thus a basic law of reasoning is the simple formula A is A. However, this particualr restriction does not apply to God, who is Spirit. In this case a certain being, whom we call “God”, we could say is A, while always being A in an absolute sense, A can remain A so long as when we speak of it in different ways (say B, C and D, or as Father, Son and Spirit) so long as when we speak of B, C and D we never say that A ceases to be A. The obvious point here is that God is A, and speaking of Him as Father, Son and Holy Spirit never, ever, means that we are have claimed to change the very nature of A to something it is not, ie non A. “If Yeshua is equal to God, then is he God? Of course not. He is like him. The fact that he is equal to God means that he is not God himself.” If Jesus is equal to God, then is He God? Of course. What you are doing is apparently failing to subjectively properly translate the term “God” to “Father”. The only way your sentence “If Yeshua is equal to God, then is he God?” …. could be not true is if we wrote something like “If Yeshua is equal to God, then is he the Father?” Then your answer “Of course not.” would be exactly correct. For Jesus is not in fact the Father. This error comes into Unitarian thinking so much that it is simply amazing. Partly this is due to attempts made to engage in equivocation of terms so as to try and make logical statements or concepts (A is A for instance) into illogical statements (ie the claim that A is A but then claiming that at the same time and in the same relationship A is non-A) . These attempts can probably effective in many cases, and this is sad because people may come away with the idea that you have made an important point when in reality all you have done is to have created a straw man, and then proceeded to knock it down. Feels pretty good I am sure, but really doesn’t accomplish anything meaningful. “Philippians 2:6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, The word “equal” in this verse is the Greek word “isos” which can mean   * similar in amount Or kind   * agree   * equal   * like This verse is simply saying that Jesus has the nature of God and is like God. This is what the rest of the New Testament teaches including John 1:1. Jesus is god (adjective, not noun) by class, not God (noun) in identity . God begat a son in his likeness, the likeness of himself, (Image of God, firstborn). Then through his son he made creation and us.” Yes, this verse is saying that Jesus has the nature of God, you are correct there. Where you fail to connect the dots is to make the natural step in reasoning which says that if Jesus has the same nature as God, He must in fact be God. Just as a human has a child that is of a like nature, so too, the only begotten Son is of the same nature as His Father. Simple really. You could see this obvious point if you would stop trying to read Scriptures through Unitarian shaded glasses. blessings HI epi, So using you’re reasoning, if a King has a child, he is the prince and they are both royals. And the prince is heir to the throne so you would treat the prince as you would the king. But the King is not the prince and the prince is not the king. But using your own words to reason. “ Where you fail to connect the dots is to make the natural step in reasoning which says that if Jesus has the same nature as God, He must in fact be God” . This would mean by your implication that the King is the prince and vice-versa. Which is not. It does not add up. And also here you admit that you arrive in the conclusion that god is triune in nature by CONNECTIONG THE DOT BY NATURAL STEP IN REASONING, Its Not by scriptures but by DEDUCTION. You declare that God is IMMUTABLE But then go on to mutate god in 3 persons or is it being. That is not logical. You use logic only if it suits your beliefs But ignored it when not. This my friend is not a sincere attitude in seeking the truth. ahhhh…. so now you have the gift to see into men's hearts and to know whether or not they have “sincere attitudes”…. I see… well since the ability to see into belongs solely to God; (1 Ki 8:39 NKJV)  “”then hear in heaven Your dwelling place, and forgive, and act, and give to everyone according to all his ways, whose heart You know (for You alone know the hearts of all the sons of men),” then your claim to be able to do what only God can do means that your problems are far more severe then any imaginings you have about how sincere my attitude is in seeking the truth….. more severe even then your denial of the trinity, you seem to be having some sort of identity crises…. if only God can see into the hearts of men, and you claim to see into my heart and know whether or not I am “sincere”…… well… can you see where this is leading?

Nick,

I'd like to read a response from you addressing this as well.

[Anonymous]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 27 2005,22:50)

Quote (Guest @ July 27 2005,22:11) nick wrote: [quote=Guest,July 27 2005,21:31]quote] sir, Would Adam's seed be sons of God and sons of Adam, both, if Adam had not fallen? biblically speaking, that is? Hi, According to scripture we are still both in a way.There is no scripture since Acts 17 that says Adam's stock ceased to be sons of God is there?

The parable of the prodigal son shows that as long as the son was not with the Father, he was dead.

We are dead. we are not in the Father's house and He is not inour house.
We are not with the Father and the Father is not with us.
We are not the sons of God. Something is separating us from the Father.
What is that separation?

Why must we receive Jesus christ for Him to give us the power to be the sons of God?
What is the life that He gives and what is the death that we are in?

[NickHassan]

Hi ,
Yes Satan is interesting.
We know all things were created through the Son of God and Satan is included. He had fallen from grace by the time adam and Eve walked in the Garden as Revelation shows the serpent as Satan. He never was greater than the Son as he was created through him. Sons of god were recorded as being involved with the evil of Genesis 6. Cherubs are seen in the vision of Ezekiel [eg10.7] as a manlike servant being quite different to Cherubim. I do not see Satan written as an Archangel, but he is written as a prince,”the prince of this world”, and Michael is called an archangel in Jude but a prince in Daniel. there is the connection for me.
So are the sons of God of Jb1,2,38 and Gen 6 Archangels and Satan also?

[Anonymous]

Quote (Guest @ July 28 2005,00:08)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 27 2005,22:50) Quote (Guest @ July 27 2005,22:11) nick wrote: [quote=Guest,July 27 2005,21:31]quote] sir, Would Adam's seed be sons of God and sons of Adam, both, if Adam had not fallen? biblically speaking, that is? Hi, According to scripture we are still both in a way.There is no scripture since Acts 17 that says Adam's stock ceased to be sons of God is there? The parable of the prodigal son shows that as long as the son was not with the Father, he was dead. We are dead. we are not in the Father's house and He is not inour house. We are not with the Father and the Father is not with us. We are not the sons of God. Something is separating us from the Father. What is that separation? Why must we receive Jesus christ for Him to give us the power to be the sons of God? What is the life that He gives and what is the death that we are in?

In John 1, He came-
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.-

“And as many as receive Him gave He power to become the sons of God”,
and 'become' is used in these ways in the scriptures;
AV – be 255, come to pass 82, be made 69, be done 63, come 52,
become 47…

My point to you, sir, is:
Adam was made a Son of God, created in the image and likeness of God.

What made Adam, formed from the dust, the son of God, as opposed to the animals, formed from the dust, who were made for Adam to rule over 'not' sons of God?

Why aren’t the animals sons of God? What made Adam a son of God?

Why are Adam’s offspring now 'not' sons of God and needing to receive Jesus Christ to have the power from Him to be the sons of God?

What is that power that makes one born of Adam a son of God if they receive Jesus Christ?

Why is that power missing from all Adam’s offspring?

Why is the holy thing born from the womb of Mary a Son of God?
What was in Him that made Him a Son of God, and why do no sons of Adam have that power in them?

When did it depart from the first human son of God?
How is it that there needs to be a second human son of God?

If God can make human sons from rocks and clay, why did He use the womb of the virgin to make the last human Son?

[Anonymous]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 28 2005,00:12)

Hi , Yes Satan is interesting. We know all things were created through the Son of God and Satan is included. He had fallen from grace by the time adam and Eve walked in the Garden as Revelation shows the serpent as Satan.  He never was greater than the Son as he was created through him. Sons of god were recorded as being involved with the evil of Genesis 6. Cherubs are seen in the vision of Ezekiel [eg10.7] as a manlike servant being quite different to Cherubim. I do not see Satan written as an Archangel, but he is written as a prince,”the prince of this world”, and Michael is called an archangel in Jude but a prince in Daniel. there is the connection for me. So are the sons of God of Jb1,2,38 and Gen 6 Archangels and Satan also?

Cherubim are plural of cherub.
Satan was a cherub, singular.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Guest @ July 28 2005,00:14)

Quote (Guest @ July 28 2005,00:08) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 27 2005,22:50) Quote (Guest @ July 27 2005,22:11) nick wrote: [quote=Guest,July 27 2005,21:31]quote] sir, Would Adam's seed be sons of God and sons of Adam, both, if Adam had not fallen? biblically speaking, that is? Hi, According to scripture we are still both in a way.There is no scripture since Acts 17 that says Adam's stock ceased to be sons of God is there? The parable of the prodigal son shows that as long as the son was not with the Father, he was dead. We are dead. we are not in the Father's house and He is not inour house. We are not with the Father and the Father is not with us. We are not the sons of God. Something is separating us from the Father. What is that separation? Why must we receive Jesus christ for Him to give us the power to be the sons of God? What is the life that He gives and what is the death that we are in? In John 1, He came- 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.- “And as many as receive Him gave He power to become the sons of God”, and 'become' is used in these ways in the scriptures; AV – be 255, come to pass 82, be made 69, be done 63, come 52, become 47… My point to you, sir, is: Adam was made a Son of God, created in the image and likeness of God. What made Adam, formed from the dust,  the son of God, as opposed to the animals, formed from the dust, who were made for Adam to rule over 'not' sons of God? Why aren’t the animals sons of God? What made Adam a son of God? Why are Adam’s offspring now 'not' sons of God and needing to receive Jesus Christ to have the power from Him to be the sons of God? What is that power that makes one born of Adam a son of God if they receive Jesus Christ? Why is that power missing from all Adam’s offspring? Why is the holy thing born from the womb of Mary a Son of God? What was in Him that made Him a Son of God, and why do no sons of Adam have that power in them? When did it depart from the first human son of God? How is it that there needs to be a second human son of God? If God can make human sons from rocks and clay, why did He use the womb of the virgin to make the last human Son?

Hi ,
The Son of God was as the Word with God in the beginning. He is the image of God through whom all creation was made. He humbled himself and emptied himself and partook of flesh.
He then was filled with the Spirit of God as a vessel for the Spirit of His Father.

We are made of dust. Adam had the breath of God blown into the nostrils. That is not the Spirit of God but only the breath of God to give us life. That life spirit only may give us 70 odd years of physical life before the death, as described in Ecc 12.That sonship to God through Adam is just time to find, or not find, eternal life in the Son

We too, if we are reborn into Christ through water and the Spirit can drink of the water of Life which is the Spirit and that Spirit will be with us into eternity in Christ.
Animals also have the breath of God blown into their flesh. Their flesh is different as 1 cor 15 tells us and Ecclesiastes 3.21 suggests their spirit at death has a different destiny.

[Anonymous]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 28 2005,00:12)

Hi , Yes Satan is interesting. We know all things were created through the Son of God and Satan is included. He had fallen from grace by the time adam and Eve walked in the Garden as Revelation shows the serpent as Satan.  He never was greater than the Son as he was created through him. Sons of god were recorded as being involved with the evil of Genesis 6. Cherubs are seen in the vision of Ezekiel [eg10.7] as a manlike servant being quite different to Cherubim. I do not see Satan written as an Archangel, but he is written as a prince,”the prince of this world”, and Michael is called an archangel in Jude but a prince in Daniel. there is the connection for me. So are the sons of God of Jb1,2,38 and Gen 6 Archangels and Satan also?

There are many princes in the Word of God, rulers, but they are not archangels. There is only one archangel, meaning the 'chief', of the angels, Michael.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Guest @ July 28 2005,00:47)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 28 2005,00:12) Hi , Yes Satan is interesting. We know all things were created through the Son of God and Satan is included. He had fallen from grace by the time adam and Eve walked in the Garden as Revelation shows the serpent as Satan.  He never was greater than the Son as he was created through him. Sons of god were recorded as being involved with the evil of Genesis 6. Cherubs are seen in the vision of Ezekiel [eg10.7] as a manlike servant being quite different to Cherubim. I do not see Satan written as an Archangel, but he is written as a prince,”the prince of this world”, and Michael is called an archangel in Jude but a prince in Daniel. there is the connection for me. So are the sons of God of Jb1,2,38 and Gen 6 Archangels and Satan also? There are many princes in the Word of God, rulers, but they are not archangels. There is only one archangel, meaning the 'chief', of the angels, Michael.

Hi,
Is this opinion or do you have scriptural evidence?

[NickHassan]

Quote (Guest @ July 28 2005,00:03)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 27 2005,23:35) Guest,July wrote: [quote=Nick Hassan,July 27 2005,22:17] Cubes,July wrote: Hi all: The Jews rightly claimed they were sons of God[yet wanted to kill Jesus for saying he was] Some of the Jews claimed a relationship with God through Abraham and Moses. Jesus called them sons of the Devil as it is he they followed. Such is death. Where did the Jews call themselves the sons of God?

Hi ,
Jn 8.41
” ..They said to him
'We were not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God”

[NickHassan]

Quote (Guest @ July 28 2005,00:08)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 27 2005,22:50) Quote (Guest @ July 27 2005,22:11) nick wrote: [quote=Guest,July 27 2005,21:31]quote] sir, Would Adam's seed be sons of God and sons of Adam, both, if Adam had not fallen? biblically speaking, that is? Hi, According to scripture we are still both in a way.There is no scripture since Acts 17 that says Adam's stock ceased to be sons of God is there? The parable of the prodigal son shows that as long as the son was not with the Father, he was dead. We are dead. we are not in the Father's house and He is not inour house. We are not with the Father and the Father is not with us. We are not the sons of God. Something is separating us from the Father. What is that separation? Why must we receive Jesus christ for Him to give us the power to be the sons of God? What is the life that He gives and what is the death that we are in?

Yes that parable teaches a lot.
The faithful son is the Jew hoping to “inherit “the kingdom.
The prodigal son takes his birthright and son walks away into sin. He no longer has an inheritance.
He repents and walks back to find His Father coming to meet him in forgiveness.
The Father covers his sin with the robe of Righteousness of the Son of God and puts the ring of the power and authority of the Spirit on his finger, and he enjoys full sonship.
The Father now sees the beloved Son when he looks at him and no longer sees sin.
We are all as that prodigal son.

[Author]

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