Who is this Jesus?

[vicalcabasa]

Quote (Cubes @ July 26 2005,18:13)

Quote (Guest @ July 24 2005,23:29) Quote (vicalcabasa @ July 24 2005,17:04) You don't count your WORD as another person, do you?  Do people relate to your WORD in one way and to you in another way? The simple answer of course is both NO. So what do we have here? We have one God, One Person Speaking. Just one and only God speaking all things into existence. Isn’t that how John 1 said it about the LOGOS of God? That all things were created through him? Remember Genesis 1? And GOD SAID let there be ….. So there is no triune mystery in the being of god. HE came from God and returned to God just as what the bible said. John 1 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. Use of personal pronouns = a person. To Guest:  Yes, Jesus is a person.   To Vic:  True that, Jesus proceeds from God being begotten of him, and has now returned to be with the God who spoke him into being and begat him…sitting at God's right hand like it is written… even in John 1:1!  He is with God and is not the God that he is with!

yes, i never meant it to sound the word of god as an inanimate thing.

though the point i was making is quite clear.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
The gap between us hinges on the scripture
“And the Word was with God and the Word was God”

Those of your beliefs concentrate on the last word and work from there.

But the statement about the divine nature of the Son does deserve a closer look.

We do not know enough about what comprises the nature of God to assume that saying he is God automatically means there are two persons in that one God. We do know that God is one and that verse binds together the OT view of God. The fear of being accused of polytheism I believe stops the deeper analysis of these words.

We do need to learn from the Words of the NT as it expounds the OT.It is a matter of words.

Jesus said men are called gods.
Paul said there are many gods
Hebrews shows that the OT does address Jesus as God in some places.

So the words
“and the word was God”
May have another meaning.

All we would ask is that you would consider these things.

[vicalcabasa]

Quote (Cubes @ July 26 2005,18:13)

Quote (Guest @ July 24 2005,23:29) Quote (vicalcabasa @ July 24 2005,17:04) You don't count your WORD as another person, do you?  Do people relate to your WORD in one way and to you in another way? The simple answer of course is both NO. So what do we have here? We have one God, One Person Speaking. Just one and only God speaking all things into existence. Isn’t that how John 1 said it about the LOGOS of God? That all things were created through him? Remember Genesis 1? And GOD SAID let there be ….. So there is no triune mystery in the being of god. HE came from God and returned to God just as what the bible said. John 1 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. Use of personal pronouns = a person. To Guest:  Yes, Jesus is a person.   To Vic:  True that, Jesus proceeds from God being begotten of him, and has now returned to be with the God who spoke him into being and begat him…sitting at God's right hand like it is written… even in John 1:1!  He is with God and is not the God that he is with!

yes, i never meant the word of god as an inanimate thing.

He is a person, but the idea still remains.

he was from the father, we was with the father and he is of the father's.

[Anonymous]

Who is saying there are two God's? Not me, or epistemaniac, or Is1:18, or redeemed, or liljon, etc…

YHWH is one – ECHAD

Oh, I know who does, Nick, T8, Cubes, etc.

All other gods are false gods and not really gods at all. Yet the Father calls Christ God and so does the rest of the Word. So it is impossible that the Father would have us follow a “false” god. To think otherwise is heresy.

[vicalcabasa]

Quote (Guest @ July 26 2005,21:40)

Quote (epistemaniac @ July 26 2005,21:22) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 26 2005,05:34) Hi E, “He did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped” Now simple reading of that phrase suggests he is not currently equal wiith God. It suggests he has to grasp equality to have it. Certainly the greek supports that idea as 'Hapazo” and it's related greek words means to “take by force”, to “steal” or “rob” or “pillage”-all words that suggest violence and taking what does not belong by right. Do those phrases suit your view of the nature of Christ? Is he not meek and humble of heart? Is he not submissive and obedient?. How anyone can read this verse and read it as the Christ having equality with God and deciding not to hold on to it beats me. the simple reading is that since He is equal to God, He does not need to grasp after equality, as it is already His…. Exodus 24: 9 Then Moses went up, also Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, 10 and they saw the God of Israel. And there was under His feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone, and it was like the very heavens in its clarity. 11 But on the nobles of the children of Israel He did not lay His hand. So they saw God, and they ate and drank. The God who is YHWH of hosts who was to come (Jesus Christ), is the God in whose image Adam was made. The word declares that Adam was made in the image and likeness of God, who was to come, the YHWH of hosts incarnate -that means ‘in flesh‘. When He, YHWH of hosts -the second Person of the One YHWH, who was Himself the glory of God-  came, He came in the likeness of sinful flesh, but without sin, as the Firstborn of the New Man creation, the Israel-kind, brother to Adam and Adam’s legal Kinsman-Redeemer who had the legal right by birth -from the virgin woman’s womb- and the power of Life in Himself, to redeem his brother, Adam: and Adam’s seed, and all Adam’s lost corrupted cursed kingdom that the Father had given Adam and Adam had sold into sin and slavery (Adam’s fall brought the curse to his entire kingdom also, and it needed redemption).. ““““““““ Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. Adam, the first human, is the figure of Him that was to come; that One who was to come is YHWH of hosts, the second Person of the YHWH, who sat upon His created throne in His created heaven as the glory of God in Person. “““““““ Jam 3:9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God. We were made in the likeness of God for the purpose of being temples for His Presence of glory to inhabit, as sons of Elohim.  ““““` Num 12:6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, [and] will speak unto him in a dream. Num 12:7 My servant Moses [is] not so, who [is] faithful in all mine house. Num 12:8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?  YHWH of hosts spoke to Moses, mouth to mouth, and Moses saw His likeness -His similitude. ~~~~~~~~~` 1Cr 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover [his] head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. Adam was made in the image and glory of God, as Elohim’s son, and the glory has departed, with which the Adam was crowned, and that is the first death that brought physical death upon the Adam, so that he would not live forever in the cursed clay vessel, humiliated, shamed, glory-less; but the glory is what the Last Adam came to Ransom us back for, for the Father. ~~~~~~~~~ Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; -Jesus; YESHUA, came to redeem us back for glory. ~~~~~~~~~ Ezekiel saw the similitude of YHWH, the Pre-incarnate LORD Jesus Christ in His glory on His throne and returning to the millennial temple in Jerusalem in the Person of the risen glorified LORD Jesus Christ. Eze 1:26 And above 04605 the firmament 07549 that [was] over their heads 07218 [was] the likeness 01823 of a throne 03678, as the appearance 04758 of a sapphire 05601 stone 068: and upon the likeness 01823 of the throne 03678 [was] the likeness 01823 as the appearance 04758 of a man 0120 above 04605 upon it. Eze 1:28 As the appearance 04758 of the bow 07198 that is in the cloud 06051 in the day 03117 of rain 01653, so [was] the appearance 04758 of the brightness 05051 round about 05439. This [was] the appearance 04758 of the likeness 01823 of the glory 03519 of the LORD 03068. And when I saw 07200 [it], I fell 05307 upon my face 06440, and I heard 08085 a voice 06963 of one that spake 01696 . Eze 8:2 Then I beheld 07200 , and lo a likeness 01823 as the appearance 04758 of fire 0784: from the appearance 04758 of his loins 04975 even downward 04295, fire 0784; and from his loins 04975 even upward 04605, as the appearance 04758 of brightness 02096, as the colour 05869 of amber 02830. Eze 8:4 And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel [was] there, according to the vision that I saw in the plain. Eze 10:1 Then I looked 07200 , and, behold, in the firmament 07549 that was above the head 07218 of the cherubims 03742 there appeared 07200 over them as it were a sapphire 05601 stone 068, as the appearance 04758 of the likeness 01823 of a throne 03678. [had] the writer's inkhorn by his side; Eze 10:19 And the cherubims lifted up their wings, and mounted up from the earth in my sight: when they went out, the wheels also [were] beside them, and [every one] stood at the door of the east gate of the LORD'S house; and the glory of the God of Israel [was] over them above. Eze 11:22 Then did the cherubims lift up their wings, and the wheels beside them; and the glory of the God of Israel [was] over them above. Eze 43:2 And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east: and his voice [was] like a noise of many waters: and the earth shined with his glory. Jesus returns in Person in Ezekiel 43 to sit upon His throne in the rebuilt temple as God in flesh, YHWH of hosts incarnate. ~“` Gen 1:26 And God 0430 said 0559 , Let us make 06213 man 0120 in our image 06754, after our likeness 01823: and let them have dominion 07287 over the fish 01710 of the sea 03220, and over the fowl 05775 of the air 08064, and over the cattle 0929, and over all the earth 0776, and over every creeping thing 07431 that creepeth 07430 upon the earth 0776. Gen 5:1 This 02088 [is] the book 05612 of the generations 08435 of Adam 0121. In the day 03117 that God 0430 created 01254 man 0120, in the likeness 01823 of God 0430 made 06213 he him; ~~~~~~~~~~~~ If we receive Jesus Christ as LORD and Savior, repent of our sins and call upon His name, He will give us His spirit of regeneration and we shall be resurrected in His image. Psa 17:15 As for me, I will behold 02372 thy face 06440 in righteous ness 06664: I shall be satisfied 07646 , when I awake 06974 , with thy likeness 08544. His purpose in coming is to bring us back to the glory we first housed, in our being, and that is the Redemption He finished the work for, by the blood of the New Man, YHWH of Hosts incarnate -in flesh- shed upon the altar of sacrificew, the cross: He is our God who has become our YESHUA; our YHWH in flesh -who has come to rescue His own. Jam 3:9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.

Hi B,

That’s strange. I always thought that it was the God’s Son who died for us.

[vicalcabasa]

Quote (Guest @ July 26 2005,17:02)

Quote (Guest @ July 26 2005,11:59) Main Entry: equal·i·ty Pronunciation: i-'kwä-l&-tE Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural -ties 1 : the quality or state of being equal 2 : EQUATION 2a Main Entry: 1equal Pronunciation: 'E-kw&l Function: adjective Etymology: Middle English, from Latin aequalis, from aequus level, equal 1 a (1) : of the same measure, quantity, amount, or number as another (2) : identical in mathematical value or logical denotation : EQUIVALENT b : like in quality, nature, or status c : like for each member of a group, class, or society 2 : regarding or affecting all objects in the same way : IMPARTIAL 3 : free from extremes: as a : tranquil in mind or mood b : not showing variation in appearance, structure, or proportion 4 a : capable of meeting the requirements of a situation or a task b : SUITABLE synonym see SAME 8 entries found for same. To select an entry, click on it.  same[1,adjective]same[2,pronoun]same[3,adverb]boat[1,noun]breathtar[2,transitive verb]time[1,noun]token[1,noun]   Main Entry: 1same Pronunciation: 'sAm Function: adjective Etymology: Middle English, from Old Norse samr; akin to Old High German sama same, Latin simulis like, simul together, at the same time, similis like, sem- one, Greek homos same, hama together, hen-, heis one 1 a : resembling in every relevant respect b : conforming in every respect — used with as 2 a : being one without addition, change, or discontinuance : IDENTICAL b : being the one under discussion or already referred to 3 : corresponding so closely as to be indistinguishable 4 : equal in size, shape, value, or importance — usually used with the or a demonstrative (as that, those) in all senses synonyms SAME, SELFSAME, VERY, IDENTICAL, EQUIVALENT, EQUAL mean not different or not differing from one another. SAME may imply and SELFSAME always implies that the things under consideration are one thing and not two or more things . VERY, like SELFSAME, may imply identity, or, like SAME, may imply likeness in kind . IDENTICAL may imply selfsameness or suggest absolute agreement in all details . EQUIVALENT implies amounting to the same thing in worth or significance . EQUAL implies being identical in value, magnitude, or some specified quality . YHWH, ELOHIM created all things in heaven and earth in six days, all the host of them, both the spiritual realm and the physical realm were created in the six days, both the angelic beings who inhabit the spiritual realm and the sun, moon and stars, were created in the six days by YHWH Elohim. In the created heaven, He created a throne, and on that throne, YHWH of hosts reigned in glory over His creation from the beginning, in the only similitude visible to angels or Adam kind, the second Person of the YHWH of hosts, who came down from that throne in His glory to come ‘incarnate‘ in the New Man, the Israel Man human body that was prepared for Him by His Spirit, the third Person of the YHWH of hosts, and prepared in the womb of the virgin for His habitation as the Human who would be the Redeemer-Kinsman of the Adam and the Adam‘s dominion that YHWH had given the Adam. If Nick  would be schooled in the word of God -from the beginning- he'd know the truth about the prepared throne in the created heaven and Who it is who sat there and came incarnate and ascended in the New creation human body, of the New Man, the Israel, who is still 'in flesh' in His human habitation that He humbled Himself to inhabit as a servant for our salvation for those of us who are Believers in Him, Who is the 'Fellow' with the Father. The throne of God is now occupied by a human being, who is YHWH of hosts incarnate, and glorified; it is the throne that He sat upon as YHWH of hosts from the creation of that throne in the created heaven. When He takes His great power and reigns over this earth as the Son of Man, when He returns on His throne of glory, then He will sit upon the throne of David, the throne of Firstborn that has been promised since the beginning that He inherits as the  Only begotten human being, of the Father.

Hi IST,

This is not scriptures. It sounded more like a narrative based on the bible.
And my always question is ..

Do you really have to change terminologies and words originally used by the scriptures?

The only begotten human being of the father?????

Remember. A little yeast corrupts the whole dough.

And a little variation can corrupt the truth.

[vicalcabasa]

Quote (epistemaniac @ July 26 2005,22:26)

t8, you said “The point is that even if he were equal to God as you are saying then that shows that he is not God. If you are equal to anything then it shows that you are not that thing you are equal too.” Exactly! The point here is that while Jesus is equal to God in regard to His essence, He and the Father are not the same in identity. That is, the Father is not the Son. “E.g., If you come first EQUAL in a race, does that mean that both racers were the same person?” Faulty analogy. God’s nature is utterly unique as to His essence or nature, and thus any attempt to equate God’s nature  with a human footrace is bound to fall short, it happens rather quickly in this case. “If 1 bar of Gold is equal to $5000.00, then are they the same object? Of course not.” This is a confusion of categories. You are taking a physical object, in this case gold, and attempting to show that the ontological and metaphysical categories I am speaking in do not correspond. And while you are correct, it is also irrelevant. In this case a metaphysical being, a being that is spirit, can be spoken of as having one essence while this essence can be at the same time spoken of being in 3 persons without “breaking” the essence itself. And this is where your analogy falls apart, you can't speak of a physical object as being itself (A) and not being itself (~A) , for the object is restricted to a time and space existence, and thus a basic law of reasoning is the simple formula A is A. However, this particualr restriction does not apply to God, who is Spirit. In this case a certain being, whom we call “God”, we could say is A, while always being A in an absolute sense, A can remain A so long as when we speak of it in different ways (say B, C and D, or as Father, Son and Spirit) so long as when we speak of B, C and D we never say that A ceases to be A. The obvious point here is that God is A, and speaking of Him as Father, Son and Holy Spirit never, ever, means that we are have claimed to change the very nature of A to something it is not, ie non A. “If Yeshua is equal to God, then is he God? Of course not. He is like him. The fact that he is equal to God means that he is not God himself.” If Jesus is equal to God, then is He God? Of course. What you are doing is apparently failing to subjectively properly translate the term “God” to “Father”. The only way your sentence “If Yeshua is equal to God, then is he God?” …. could be not true is if we wrote something like “If Yeshua is equal to God, then is he the Father?” Then your answer “Of course not.” would be exactly correct. For Jesus is not in fact the Father. This error comes into Unitarian thinking so much that it is simply amazing. Partly this is due to attempts made to engage in equivocation of terms so as to try and make logical statements or concepts (A is A for instance) into illogical statements (ie the claim that A is A but then claiming that at the same time and in the same relationship A is non-A) . These attempts can probably effective in many cases, and this is sad because people may come away with the idea that you have made an important point when in reality all you have done is to have created a straw man, and then proceeded to knock it down. Feels pretty good I am sure, but really doesn’t accomplish anything meaningful. “Philippians 2:6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, The word “equal” in this verse is the Greek word “isos” which can mean   * similar in amount Or kind   * agree   * equal   * like This verse is simply saying that Jesus has the nature of God and is like God. This is what the rest of the New Testament teaches including John 1:1. Jesus is god (adjective, not noun) by class, not God (noun) in identity . God begat a son in his likeness, the likeness of himself, (Image of God, firstborn). Then through his son he made creation and us.” Yes, this verse is saying that Jesus has the nature of God, you are correct there. Where you fail to connect the dots is to make the natural step in reasoning which says that if Jesus has the same nature as God, He must in fact be God. Just as a human has a child that is of a like nature, so too, the only begotten Son is of the same nature as His Father. Simple really. You could see this obvious point if you would stop trying to read Scriptures through Unitarian shaded glasses. blessings

HI epi,

So using you’re reasoning, if a King has a child, he is the prince and they are both royals. And the prince is heir to the throne so you would treat the prince as you would the king.

But the King is not the prince and the prince is not the king.

But using your own words to reason.
“
Where you fail to connect the dots is to make the natural step in reasoning which says that if Jesus has the same nature as God, He must in fact be God” .

This would mean by your implication that the King is the prince and vice-versa. Which is not.

It does not add up.

And also here you admit that you arrive in the conclusion that god is triune in nature by CONNECTIONG THE DOT BY NATURAL STEP IN REASONING,

Its Not by scriptures but by DEDUCTION.

You declare that God is IMMUTABLE

But then go on to mutate god in 3 persons or is it being.

That is not logical.

You use logic only if it suits your beliefs
But ignored it when not.

This my friend is not a sincere attitude in seeking the truth.

[vicalcabasa]

Quote (epistemaniac @ July 27 2005,00:23)

“So if Jesus is called the Son of God, where did the title 2nd person of the trinity comes from? Is the revelation of the Bible not enough that we should coin another title or description for him? Or are we adding to the already revealed Word of God?” Don’t even start with the “that word or phrase is not found exactly in the Scripture, so it must be false” line of malarkey. Its fallacious reasoning of the worst sort. You use words and especially phrases to describe your views all the time, in fact in this very thread you spoke of “And this is my point, if I should make my own doctrine on Christology, this is the idea I will pursue”…… and let me tell you, if you didn’t already know, the word “Christology” is not in the Bible anywhere, so if you are free to use words to describe your faith, then it seems very hypocritical of you to not allow others the same privilege. blessings

hi epi,
no new doctrines for me, my point is lets stick to the revealed and complete word of god, the bible.

if we reject the bible scriptures as the source of all truth and sound doctrines and use extra biblical sources, then this what is going to happen. the truth of the scriptures will be open to all kind of interpretation and all sorts of strange doctrines will come up.

anyone who rejects this is because it does not suit well with their doctrines.

[Anonymous]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 27 2005,00:52)

Hi, The gap between us hinges on the scripture “And the Word was with God and the Word was God” Those of your beliefs concentrate on the last word and work from there. But the statement about the divine nature of the Son does deserve a closer look. We do not know enough about what comprises the nature of God to assume that saying he is God automatically means there are two persons in that one God. We do know that God is one and that verse binds together the OT view of God. The fear of being accused of polytheism I believe stops the deeper analysis of these words. We do need to learn from the Words of the NT as it expounds the OT.It is a matter of words. Jesus said men are called gods. Paul said there are many gods Hebrews shows that the OT does address Jesus as God in some places. So the words “and the word was God” May have another meaning. All we would ask is that you would consider these things.

So, when God made Adam in His own image and likeness, that image and likeness was the image and likeness of the ‘Son of God‘, in flesh, who was to come, according to Paul, who was YHWH of hosts, according to John.

I’ve said the same scriptures over and over to refute your denial of those scriptures over and over. In fact; I cannot believe that you can read the Scripture, for what it plainly says, you deny it saying -or ignore it as if it doesn’t say what it says and come back with the same claims that have just been thouroughly refuted with the plain word of God.

I’ve answered your questions over and over, and used the Word of God over and over; but you have no ability to grasp the simplest truths og the word of God.

The Son is not the Father. The Son is YHWH of hosts. The Son has no beginning, no father.

He is a Son only in His fully human flesh; and He is the LIVING SPIRIT residing in that fully human created body, whereas Adam was a LIVING SOUL, residing in his human body.

Those things are plain, easy to read, and not hidden.

Moses saw Him. Ezekiel saw Him, Adam walked with Him, Jacob wrestled with Him, Isaiah saw Him in His glory: He is the YHWH of hosts who was sent by YHWH of hosts. Two YHWH of hosts, One is sent, One sends, and His Spirit sends.

One throne. One sits upon it, seen, as the likeness and image of God, in flesh, forever.

You sure have to twist and ignore a vast amount of information that the Holy Spirit has revealed about His Person and work, as the witness to Him, and in the end, it will be your destruction, for Jesus said that if you do not believe that He is ‘I AM’ you will die in your sins.

As the Word of God declares; the spirit that does not confess that YESHUA (JESUS) The MESSIAH (The Christ) IS COME in the FLESH -in -carnate- is that spirit of antichrist, itself; for He IS -present tense- COME IN THE FLESH. NOW!

John's testimony;
chapter 12
37 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, 38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke:
“Lord, who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”*
39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:
40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.”*

41 These things Isaiah said *when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.

Isaiah saw His glory and spoke of Him.

In the year that King Uzziah died,

I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple. 2 Above it stood seraphim; each one had six wings: with two he covered his face,

[Isaiah saw His glory and spoke of Him.]

with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. 3 And one cried to another and said:
“Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts;
The whole earth is full of His glory!”

[Isaiah saw His glory and spoke of Him.]

4 And the posts of the door were shaken by the voice of him who cried out, and the house was filled with smoke.
5 So I said:
“Woe is me, for I am undone!
Because I am a man of unclean lips,
And I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips;
For my eyes have seen the King,
The Lord of hosts.”

[Isaiah saw His glory and spoke of Him.]

[Who did Isaiah see, John?
“Isaiah saw His glory and spoke of Him.”]

6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me, having in his hand a live coal which he had taken with the tongs from the altar. 7 And he touched my mouth with it, and said:
“Behold, this has touched your lips;
Your iniquity is taken away,
And your sin purged.”
8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying:
“Whom shall I send,
And who will go for Us?”
Then I said, “Here am I! Send me.”
9 And He said, “Go, and tell this people:
'Keep on hearing, but do not understand;
Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.'

[Isaiah saw His glory and spoke of Him.[

Nick,
If you do not repent of the denial of His name, you will never be resurrected in His image and glorified.

You will be resurrected, but in your old image -minus mutations- for all Adam will be resurrected in their own bodies from the dust of this creation to stand at the judgment.

If you have denied Him, He will deny you; and you, whom He died to Redeem and bring back to the glory of the Presence of the Father -in the regenerated version of your own individually designed human being body that He purchased back, on the cross, will be a cast away forever, in the outer darkness, where His light never shines for eternity.

Having been made in His image, and personally designed before ever you came into being, from the first Adam, you will now exist forever; but denying His name is unpardonable forever, and so you will never know the glory of His presence that He came to cleanse your soul and redeem your body and spirit back to Himself for.

I am redeemed,
forever

[Anonymous]

Quote (vicalcabasa @ July 27 2005,01:59)

Quote (Guest @ July 26 2005,17:02) Quote (Guest @ July 26 2005,11:59) Main Entry: equal·i·ty Pronunciation: i-'kwä-l&-tE Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural -ties 1 : the quality or state of being equal 2 : EQUATION 2a Main Entry: 1equal Pronunciation: 'E-kw&l Function: adjective Etymology: Middle English, from Latin aequalis, from aequus level, equal 1 a (1) : of the same measure, quantity, amount, or number as another (2) : identical in mathematical value or logical denotation : EQUIVALENT b : like in quality, nature, or status c : like for each member of a group, class, or society 2 : regarding or affecting all objects in the same way : IMPARTIAL 3 : free from extremes: as a : tranquil in mind or mood b : not showing variation in appearance, structure, or proportion 4 a : capable of meeting the requirements of a situation or a task b : SUITABLE synonym see SAME 8 entries found for same. To select an entry, click on it.  same[1,adjective]same[2,pronoun]same[3,adverb]boat[1,noun]breathtar[2,transitive verb]time[1,noun]token[1,noun]   Main Entry: 1same Pronunciation: 'sAm Function: adjective Etymology: Middle English, from Old Norse samr; akin to Old High German sama same, Latin simulis like, simul together, at the same time, similis like, sem- one, Greek homos same, hama together, hen-, heis one 1 a : resembling in every relevant respect b : conforming in every respect — used with as 2 a : being one without addition, change, or discontinuance : IDENTICAL b : being the one under discussion or already referred to 3 : corresponding so closely as to be indistinguishable 4 : equal in size, shape, value, or importance — usually used with the or a demonstrative (as that, those) in all senses synonyms SAME, SELFSAME, VERY, IDENTICAL, EQUIVALENT, EQUAL mean not different or not differing from one another. SAME may imply and SELFSAME always implies that the things under consideration are one thing and not two or more things . VERY, like SELFSAME, may imply identity, or, like SAME, may imply likeness in kind . IDENTICAL may imply selfsameness or suggest absolute agreement in all details . EQUIVALENT implies amounting to the same thing in worth or significance . EQUAL implies being identical in value, magnitude, or some specified quality . YHWH, ELOHIM created all things in heaven and earth in six days, all the host of them, both the spiritual realm and the physical realm were created in the six days, both the angelic beings who inhabit the spiritual realm and the sun, moon and stars, were created in the six days by YHWH Elohim. In the created heaven, He created a throne, and on that throne, YHWH of hosts reigned in glory over His creation from the beginning, in the only similitude visible to angels or Adam kind, the second Person of the YHWH of hosts, who came down from that throne in His glory to come ‘incarnate‘ in the New Man, the Israel Man human body that was prepared for Him by His Spirit, the third Person of the YHWH of hosts, and prepared in the womb of the virgin for His habitation as the Human who would be the Redeemer-Kinsman of the Adam and the Adam‘s dominion that YHWH had given the Adam. If Nick  would be schooled in the word of God -from the beginning- he'd know the truth about the prepared throne in the created heaven and Who it is who sat there and came incarnate and ascended in the New creation human body, of the New Man, the Israel, who is still 'in flesh' in His human habitation that He humbled Himself to inhabit as a servant for our salvation for those of us who are Believers in Him, Who is the 'Fellow' with the Father. The throne of God is now occupied by a human being, who is YHWH of hosts incarnate, and glorified; it is the throne that He sat upon as YHWH of hosts from the creation of that throne in the created heaven. When He takes His great power and reigns over this earth as the Son of Man, when He returns on His throne of glory, then He will sit upon the throne of David, the throne of Firstborn that has been promised since the beginning that He inherits as the  Only begotten human being, of the Father. Hi IST, This is not scriptures. It sounded more like a narrative based on the bible. And my always question is .. Do you really have to change terminologies and words originally used by the scriptures? The only begotten human being of the father????? Remember. A little yeast corrupts the whole dough. And a little variation can corrupt the truth.

I was leaving, as there is no point in repeating scriptures over and over that are ignored and denied as if the scriptures don't exist as they are written.
But, FYI, I've already documented from scripture the 'only begotten' as a human being, position of the LORD Jesus Christ in His Last Adam, Firstborn of the Father, 'Second Man' body of flesh.

It is His position in His humanity, as YHWH called Isaac the only begotten of Abraham when he sent him on the living oracle of the Person of YESHUA, in flesh, that was coming.
YHWH used the exact word that is 'Monogenes', in Greek, and if you'd just go back and read my post, you'll find only scripture in it to show the truth of YHWH of hosts in flesh as the replacement for Adam, and named Israel.

Only Israel, the second Man who is the YHWH from heaven in human flesh inherits the kingdom -this earth- for Adam is dead, who was first given the kingdom of this earth.
Go back, read what I posted. It is all in Scripture and scriptures that I posted deny the doctrines that you have been taught in cgi.

[vicalcabasa]

Quote (Guest @ July 27 2005,03:55)

Nick, If you do not repent of the denial of His name, you will never be resurrected in His image and glorified. You will be resurrected, but in your old image -minus mutations- for all Adam will be resurrected in their own bodies from the dust of this creation to stand at the judgment. If you have denied Him, He will deny you; and you, whom He died to Redeem and bring back to the glory of the Presence of the Father -in the regenerated version of your own individually designed human being body that He purchased back, on the cross, will be a cast away forever, in the outer darkness, where His light never shines for eternity. Having been made in His image, and personally designed before ever you came into being, from the first Adam, you will now exist forever; but denying His name is unpardonable forever, and so you will never know the glory of His presence that He came to cleanse your soul and redeem your body and spirit back to Himself for. I am redeemed, forever

So if you say Jesus is God. Amen, several scriptures come to mind.
If you say the Holy Spirit is A Person. Yes lots of scriptures too.
If you say Father is God,. No argument on that.
But if you say God is triune in Nature. Huh? Where’s the scriptures.

it is implied in the scriptures?
It is pre-supposed in the scriptures”
You have to connect the dots?
It is the logical conclusion?
Read between the lines?

I do not claim to fully understand the true nature of God.
It is not what I don’t understand in the bible that worry me
But the things that I understand.

And I understand God’s salvation plan for me and you.
So who is Jesus?
He is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.
The name that God has given under heaven and earth whereby man could be save.
This is all we need to know and believe in order for us to be saved.

Any denomination that requires Christians to also accept that god’s nature is triune in order to be saved is tragic.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Guest @ July 27 2005,03:55)

Moses saw Him. Ezekiel saw Him, Adam walked with Him, Jacob wrestled with Him, Isaiah saw Him in His glory: He is the YHWH of hosts who was sent by YHWH of hosts. Two YHWH of hosts, One is sent, One sends, and His Spirit sends. Isaiah saw His glory and spoke of Him.

Hi IAR,
You are so confused. There are not two YHWH. God is One.

Your interpretation that all these people have seen Jesus Christ prior to his birth defies scripture and has not a scrap of divine support in scripture.

If you say “YHWH the Second person” was seen prior to his birth in what form was he ? human? spiritual visible? Where is the proof?

So what happened in his mother's womb. Did he regress to an embryo and reform the shape of a human infant? Or is there some other magical explanation for his change from visible adult to visible infant and grow again?

Speculation building on speculation leads far from what is true.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Is 6.1f
” In the year of King Uzziah I saw the Lord sitting on a throne , lofty and exalted. with the train of His robe filling the temple.
The Seraphim stood above Him, each having six wings ;with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. And one called out to another and said
'Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord of hosts
The whole earth is full of His glory'
And the foundation of the thresholds trembled at the voice of him who called out, while the temple was filling with smoke.

Then I said
'Woe is me , for I am ruined!
Because I am a man of unclean lips;
and my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of Hosts'

Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a burning coal in his hand, which he had taken from the altar with tongs. He touched my mouth with it and said
'Behold this has touched your lips and your iniquity is taken away and your sin is forgiven'

Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying
'Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?'

Then I said
'Here am I ,Send Me!'

He said
'GO AND TELL THIS PEOPLE
'Keep on listening, but do not perceive
Keep on looking but do not understand
Render the hearts of this people insensitive,
their ears dull and their eyes dim,
otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears, understand with their hearts,
and return and be healed'

Then I said
'Lord , how long?'

And he answered
'Until cities are devastated and without inhabitant,
houses are without people and the land is utterly desolate,
The lord has removed men far away,
and the forsaken places are many in the midst of the land
Yet there will be a tenth portion in it, and it will again be subject to burning, like a terebinth or an oak
whose stump remains when it is felled.
The Holy seed is it's stump”

No confusion here.

The Lord in the OT is ALWAYS the Father.
The Lord of Hosts is one of the commonest names used for GOD in the OT[300 odd times]

Isaiah knows it is the Lord God he has 'seen' and what risks that entails, but is unaware it is only a vision of GOD'S GLORY and not God Himself [JN 12.41]. He offers to go for God and he is told WHAT TO SAY

He interrupts God with a question.

The Lord God in His Holy temple surrounded by His Seraphim continues telling him what he should say, also including His answer to the question, in those instructions.

The only inclusion of the Son of God in this chapter is in the last line-the stump.

[Anonymous]

The New John Gill Exposition of the Entire Bible

Isaiah 6:13

But yet in it [shall be] a tenth…
Which some understand of ten kings that should reign over Judah from this time, the death of Uzziah, unto the captivity, as Jarchi and Aben Ezra observe; and which are, as Kimchi reckons them, as follows, Jotham, Ahaz, Hezekiah, Manasseh, Amon, Josiah, Jehoahaz, Jehoiakim, Jehoiachin, Zedekiah; but the prophecy, as we have seen, respects not the captivity of the Jews in Babylon, but their present one; wherefore the words are to be understood of a few persons, a remnant, according to the election of grace, that should be called, and saved amidst all the blindness, darkness, and destruction that should come upon that people; and may be illustrated by the words of the apostle in (Romans 11:5) and these chosen, called, and saved ones, are the “tenth”, that is, the Lord's tenth, as the words may be rendered F18. To this sense the Targum agrees,

“and there shall be left in it righteous persons, one out of ten;''
though indeed the Christians were not left in Jerusalem when it was destroyed, but were called out of it just before, and were preserved from that ruin. And [it] shall return, and shall be eaten;
or “be for burning”. I should choose to render it, “it shall return, and be burnt” F19; that is, it shall be burnt again; it was burnt a first time by Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, and his army, (Jeremiah 52:13) and a second time by Titus Vespasian, to which this prophecy refers: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance [is] in them, when
they cast [their leaves];
the word “Beshallecheth”, which we render, “when they cast their leaves”, is by some, as Jarchi, Aben Ezra, and Kimchi observe, thought to be the name of a gate in Jerusalem, called “Shallecheth”, from which a causeway went towards the king's palace, from whence it had its name, (1 Chronicles 26:16) and along which causeway, as is supposed, were planted teil trees and oaks, which are here referred to. But the Targum, Jarchi, and Kimchi, interpret the word as we do, of casting their leaves: and the sense seems to be this; that as the teil tree and oak, when they cast their leaves in autumn, and look as if they were dry, withered, and dead, yet have a substance in them, and in spring appear alive and green, and flourishing again; so the Jews, notwithstanding their miserable destruction by the Romans, when they were stripped of all their riches and glory, yet were not utterly consumed as a people, but remained an entire distinct people, and do so to this day, among the nations of the world; though, like a dry withered trunk of a tree, without verdure or beauty; the reason of this follows: so,
or “because”, the holy seed [shall be] the substance thereof;
that is, they shall subsist, or continue a distinct people, though in this miserable condition; because there is a “holy seed”, or a certain number, whom God has chosen to be holy, that is to arise from them, and will be called and converted in the latter day; hence they have a substance, a subsistence, and shall remain till that comes, and that chosen remnant is called and saved, (Romans 11:25,26) . The Targum is,
“as the elm and oak, when their leaves fall, and are like to dry “trees”, and yet are moist to raise up seed from them; so the captivities of Israel shall be gathered, and shall return to their land; for the seed which is holy is their plantation.''
Some, interpreting the passage of the Babylonish captivity, by the “holy seed” understand the Messiah. See (Luke 1:35) F20.

http://www.studylight.org/com….rse=013

[Anonymous]

Matthew Henry Complete Commentary
on the Whole Bible

Isaiah 6

I. See God upon his throne, and that throne high and lifted up, not only above other thrones, as it transcends them, but over other thrones, as it rules and commands them. Isaiah saw not Jehovah–the essence of God (no man has seen that, or can see it), but Adonai–his dominion. He saw the Lord Jesus; so this vision is explained John 12:41, that Isaiah now saw Christ's glory and spoke of him, which is an incontestable proof of the divinity of our Saviour. He it is who when, after his resurrection, he sat down on the right hand of God, did but sit down where he was before, John 17:5. See the rest of the Eternal Mind: Isaiah saw the Lord sitting, Psalms 29:10. See the sovereignty of the Eternal Monarch: he sits upon a throne–a throne of glory, before which we must worship,–a throne of government, under which we must be subject,–and a throne of grace, to which we may come boldly. This throne is high, and lifted up above all competition and contradiction.

Cont.:

4. That yet a remnant should be reserved to be the monuments of mercy, Isaiah 6:13. There was a remnant reserved in the last destruction of the Jewish nation (Romans 11:5, At this present time there is a remnant); for so it was written here: But in it shall be a tenth, a certain number, but a very small number in comparison with the multitude that shall perish in their unbelief. It is that which, under the law, was God's proportion; they shall be consecrated to God as the tithes were, and shall be for his service and honour. Concerning this tithe, this saved remnant, we are here told, (1.) That they shall return (Isaiah 6:13,10:21), shall return from sin to God and duty, shall return out of captivity to their own land. God will turn them, and they shall be turned. (2.) That they shall be eaten, that is, shall be accepted of God as the tithe was, which was meat in God's house, Malachi 3:10. The saving of this remnant shall be meat to the faith and hope of those that wish well to God's kingdom. (3.) That they shall be like a timber-tree in winter, which has life, though it has no leaves: As a teil-tree and as an oak, whose substance is in them even when they cast their leaves, so this remnant, though they may be stripped of their outward prosperity and share with others in common calamities, shall yet recover themselves, as a tree in the spring, and flourish again; though they fall, they shall not be utterly cast down. There is hope of a tree, though it be cut down, that it will sprout again, Job 14:7. (4.) That this distinguished remnant shall be the stay and support of the public interests. The holy seed in the soul is the substance of the man; a principle of grace reigning in the heart will keep life there; he that is born of God has his seed remaining in him, 1 John 3:9. So the holy seed in the land is the substance of the land, keeps it from being quite dissolved, and bears up the pillars of it, Psalms 75:3. See Isaiah 1:9. Some read the foregoing clause with this, thus: As the support at Shallecheth is in the elms and the oaks, so the holy seed is the substance thereof; as the trees that grow on either side of the causeway (the raised way, or terrace-walk, that leads from the king's palace to the temple, 1 Kings 10:5, at the gate of Shallecheth, 1 Chronicles 26:16) support the causeway by keeping up the earth, which would otherwise be crumbling away, so the small residue of religious, serious, praying people, are the support of the state, and help to keep things together and save them from going to decay. Some make the holy seed to be Christ. The Jewish nation was therefore saved from utter ruin because out of it, as concerning the flesh, Christ was to come, Romans 9:5. Destroy it not, for that blessing is in it (Isaiah 65:8); and when that blessing had come, it was soon destroyed. Now the consideration of this is designed for the support of the prophet in his work. Though far the greater part should perish in their unbelief, yet to some his word should be a savour of life unto life. Ministers do not wholly lose their labour if they be but instrumental to save one poor soul.

http://www.studylight.org/com….#Isa6_1

[Anonymous]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 27 2005,09:55)

Hi, Is 6.1f ” In the year of King Uzziah I saw the Lord sitting on a throne , lofty and exalted. with the train of His robe filling the temple. The Seraphim stood above Him, each having six wings ;with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. And one called out to another and said 'Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord of hosts The whole earth is full of His glory' And the foundation of the thresholds trembled at the voice of him who called out, while the temple was filling with smoke. Then I said 'Woe is me , for I am ruined! Because I am a man of unclean lips; and my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of Hosts' Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a burning coal in his hand, which he had taken from the altar with tongs. He touched my mouth with it and said 'Behold this has touched your lips and your iniquity is taken away and your sin is forgiven' Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying 'Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?' Then I said 'Here am I ,Send Me!' He said 'GO AND TELL THIS PEOPLE 'Keep on listening, but do not perceive Keep on looking but do not understand Render the hearts of this people insensitive, their ears dull and their eyes dim, otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and return and be healed' Then I said 'Lord , how long?' And he answered 'Until cities are devastated and without inhabitant, houses are without people and the land is utterly desolate, The lord has removed men far away, and the forsaken places are many in the midst of the land Yet there will be a tenth portion in it, and it will again be subject to burning, like a terebinth or an oak whose stump remains when it is felled. The Holy seed is it's stump” No confusion here. The Lord in the OT is ALWAYS the Father. The Lord of Hosts is one of the commonest names used for GOD in the OT[300 odd times] Isaiah knows it is the Lord God he has 'seen' and what risks that entails, but is unaware it is only a vision of GOD'S GLORY and not God Himself [JN 12.41]. He offers to go for God and he is told WHAT TO SAY He interrupts God with a question. The Lord God in His Holy temple surrounded by His Seraphim continues telling him what he should say, also including His answer to the question, in those instructions. The only inclusion of the Son of God in this chapter is in the last line-the stump.

Nick,

You have just blasphemed the Holy Spirit with your flat out denial of what the Holy Spirit revealed through the testimony of John -which is the revelation that Isaiah saw the LORD JESUS Christ in His YHWH of hosts form before He caem to take upon Hiimself the human flesh to be the YESHUA of Israel and all who will call upon His name.

However, I pray that you have done it in ignorance, as Paul did before He had the vision of the risen YHWH in flesh, Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
YHWH reveals Himself in visions, and He said so. Jesus Christ was revealed in the vision to Isaiah, and John told us so.

[Anonymous]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 27 2005,04:50)

Quote (Guest @ July 27 2005,03:55) Moses saw Him. Ezekiel saw Him, Adam walked with Him, Jacob wrestled with Him, Isaiah saw Him in His glory: He is the YHWH of hosts who was sent by YHWH of hosts. Two YHWH of hosts, One is sent, One sends, and His Spirit sends. Isaiah saw His glory and spoke of Him. Hi IAR, You are so confused. There are not two YHWH. God is One. Your interpretation that all these people have seen Jesus Christ prior to his birth defies scripture and has not a scrap of divine support in scripture. If you say “YHWH the Second person” was seen prior to his birth in what form was he ? human? spiritual visible? Where is the proof? So what happened in his mother's womb. Did he regress to an embryo and reform the shape of a human infant? Or is there some other magical explanation for his change from visible adult to visible infant and grow again? Speculation building on speculation leads far from what is true.

This is not a response of a biblically literate person
It is the response of a mocker, who mocks the word the word of God.

[Anonymous]

The Adam Clarke Commentary

Isaiah 6:

The veil, separating the most holy place from the holy or outermost part of the temple, is here supposed to be taken away; for the prophet, to whom the whole is exhibited, is manifestly placed by the altar of burnt-offering, at the entrance of the temple, (compare Ezekiel 43:5,6,) which was filled with the train of the robe, the spreading and overflowing of the Divine glory. The Lord upon the throne, according to St. John 12:41,) was Christ; and the vision related to his future kingdom when the veil of separation was to be removed, and the whole earth was to be filled with the glory of God, revealed to all mankind: which is likewise implied in the hymn of the seraphim, the design of which is, saith Jerome on the place, Ut mysterium Trinitatis in una Divinitate demonstrent; et nequaquam templum Judaicum, sicut prius, sed omnem terram illius gloria plenam esse testentur; “That they may point out the mystery of the Trinity in one Godhead; and that the Jewish temple alone should not be, as formerly, the place of the Divine glory, for the whole earth should be filled with it.” It relates, indeed, primarily to the prophet's own time, and the obduration of the Jews of that age, and their punishment by the Babylonish captivity; but extends in its full attitude to the age of Messiah, and the blindness of the Jews to the Gospel, (see Matthew 13:14; ; John 12:40; ; Acts 28:26; ; Romans 11:8,) the desolation of their country by the Romans, and their being rejected by God. That nevertheless a holy seed-a remnant, should be preserved; and that the nation should spread out and flourish again from the old stock.-L.

Cont.

Verse 13. A tenth
This passage, though somewhat obscure, and variously explained by various interpreters, has, I think, been made so clear by the accomplishment of the prophecy, that there remains little room to doubt of the sense of it. When Nebuchadnezzar had carried away the greater and better part of the people into captivity, there was yet a tenth remaining in the land, the poorer sort left to be vine-dressers and husbandmen, under Gedaliah, 2 Kings 25:12,22, and the dispersed Jews gathered themselves together, and returned to him, Jeremiah 40:12; yet even these, fleeing into Egypt after the death of Gedaliah, contrary to the warning of God given by the prophet Jeremiah, miserably perished there. Again, in the subsequent and more remarkable completion of the prophecy in the destruction of Jerusalem, and the dissolution of the commonwealth by the Romans, when the Jews, after the loss of above a million of men, had increased from the scanty residue that was left of them, and had become very numerous again in their country; Hadrian, provoked by their rebellious behaviour, slew above half a million more of them, and a second time almost extirpated the nation. Yet after these signal and almost universal destructions of that nation, and after so many other repeated exterminations and massacres of them in different times and on various occasions since, we yet see, with astonishment, that the stock still remains, from which God, according to his promise frequently given by his prophets, will cause his people to shoot forth again, and to flourish.-L.

http://www.studylight.org/com….#Isa6_1

[Anonymous]

David Guzik's Commentaries
on the Bible

Isaiah 6

e. When Isaiah saw the LORD, who did he see? He saw God in the Second Person of the Trinity, he saw Jesus before He added humanity to His deity. We know this because the Apostle John quotes Isaiah 6:10, and under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, adds: These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him (John 12:41).

http://www.studylight.org/com….#Isa6_1

[Anonymous]

Commentary Critical and Explanatory
on the Whole Bible

Isaiah 6

Lord–here Adonai, Jehovah in Isa 6:5; Jesus Christ is meant as speaking in Isa 6:10, according to Joh 12:41. Isaiah could only have “seen” the Son, not the divine essence (Joh 1:18). The words in Isa 6:10 are attributed by Paul (Ac 28:25, 26) to the Holy Ghost. Thus the Trinity in unity is implied; as also by the thrice “Holy” (Isa 6:3). Isaiah mentions the robes, temple, and seraphim, but not the form of God Himself. Whatever it was, it was different from the usual Shekinah: that was on the mercy seat, this on a throne; that a cloud and fire, of this no form is specified: over that were the cherubim, over this the seraphim; that had no clothing, this had a flowing robe and train.

http://www.studylight.org/com….#Isa6_1

[Author]

Posts