Who is this Jesus?

[NickHassan]

Quote (Guest @ July 26 2005,11:59)

Main Entry: equal·i·ty Pronunciation: i-'kwä-l&-tE Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural -ties 1 : the quality or state of being equal 2 : EQUATION 2a Main Entry: 1equal Pronunciation: 'E-kw&l Function: adjective Etymology: Middle English, from Latin aequalis, from aequus level, equal 1 a (1) : of the same measure, quantity, amount, or number as another (2) : identical in mathematical value or logical denotation : EQUIVALENT b : like in quality, nature, or status c : like for each member of a group, class, or society 2 : regarding or affecting all objects in the same way : IMPARTIAL 3 : free from extremes: as a : tranquil in mind or mood b : not showing variation in appearance, structure, or proportion 4 a : capable of meeting the requirements of a situation or a task b : SUITABLE synonym see SAME 8 entries found for same. To select an entry, click on it.  same[1,adjective]same[2,pronoun]same[3,adverb]boat[1,noun]breathtar[2,transitive verb]time[1,noun]token[1,noun]   Main Entry: 1same Pronunciation: 'sAm Function: adjective Etymology: Middle English, from Old Norse samr; akin to Old High German sama same, Latin simulis like, simul together, at the same time, similis like, sem- one, Greek homos same, hama together, hen-, heis one 1 a : resembling in every relevant respect b : conforming in every respect — used with as 2 a : being one without addition, change, or discontinuance : IDENTICAL b : being the one under discussion or already referred to 3 : corresponding so closely as to be indistinguishable 4 : equal in size, shape, value, or importance — usually used with the or a demonstrative (as that, those) in all senses synonyms SAME, SELFSAME, VERY, IDENTICAL, EQUIVALENT, EQUAL mean not different or not differing from one another. SAME may imply and SELFSAME always implies that the things under consideration are one thing and not two or more things . VERY, like SELFSAME, may imply identity, or, like SAME, may imply likeness in kind . IDENTICAL may imply selfsameness or suggest absolute agreement in all details . EQUIVALENT implies amounting to the same thing in worth or significance . EQUAL implies being identical in value, magnitude, or some specified quality .

Quite so,

The Son said
“The Father is greater than I”
I agree with him. Do you?

[Anonymous]

Quote (Guest @ July 26 2005,11:59)

Main Entry: equal·i·ty Pronunciation: i-'kwä-l&-tE Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural -ties 1 : the quality or state of being equal 2 : EQUATION 2a Main Entry: 1equal Pronunciation: 'E-kw&l Function: adjective Etymology: Middle English, from Latin aequalis, from aequus level, equal 1 a (1) : of the same measure, quantity, amount, or number as another (2) : identical in mathematical value or logical denotation : EQUIVALENT b : like in quality, nature, or status c : like for each member of a group, class, or society 2 : regarding or affecting all objects in the same way : IMPARTIAL 3 : free from extremes: as a : tranquil in mind or mood b : not showing variation in appearance, structure, or proportion 4 a : capable of meeting the requirements of a situation or a task b : SUITABLE synonym see SAME 8 entries found for same. To select an entry, click on it.  same[1,adjective]same[2,pronoun]same[3,adverb]boat[1,noun]breathtar[2,transitive verb]time[1,noun]token[1,noun]   Main Entry: 1same Pronunciation: 'sAm Function: adjective Etymology: Middle English, from Old Norse samr; akin to Old High German sama same, Latin simulis like, simul together, at the same time, similis like, sem- one, Greek homos same, hama together, hen-, heis one 1 a : resembling in every relevant respect b : conforming in every respect — used with as 2 a : being one without addition, change, or discontinuance : IDENTICAL b : being the one under discussion or already referred to 3 : corresponding so closely as to be indistinguishable 4 : equal in size, shape, value, or importance — usually used with the or a demonstrative (as that, those) in all senses synonyms SAME, SELFSAME, VERY, IDENTICAL, EQUIVALENT, EQUAL mean not different or not differing from one another. SAME may imply and SELFSAME always implies that the things under consideration are one thing and not two or more things . VERY, like SELFSAME, may imply identity, or, like SAME, may imply likeness in kind . IDENTICAL may imply selfsameness or suggest absolute agreement in all details . EQUIVALENT implies amounting to the same thing in worth or significance . EQUAL implies being identical in value, magnitude, or some specified quality .

YHWH, ELOHIM created all things in heaven and earth in six days, all the host of them, both the spiritual realm and the physical realm were created in the six days, both the angelic beings who inhabit the spiritual realm and the sun, moon and stars, were created in the six days by YHWH Elohim.

In the created heaven, He created a throne, and on that throne, YHWH of hosts reigned in glory over His creation from the beginning, in the only similitude visible to angels or Adam kind, the second Person of the YHWH of hosts, who came down from that throne in His glory to come ‘incarnate‘ in the New Man, the Israel Man human body that was prepared for Him by His Spirit, the third Person of the YHWH of hosts, and prepared in the womb of the virgin for His habitation as the Human who would be the Redeemer-Kinsman of the Adam and the Adam‘s dominion that YHWH had given the Adam.

If Nick would be schooled in the word of God -from the beginning- he'd know the truth about the prepared throne in the created heaven and Who it is who sat there and came incarnate and ascended in the New creation human body, of the New Man, the Israel, who is still 'in flesh' in His human habitation that He humbled Himself to inhabit as a servant for our salvation for those of us who are Believers in Him, Who is the 'Fellow' with the Father.

The throne of God is now occupied by a human being, who is YHWH of hosts incarnate, and glorified; it is the throne that He sat upon as YHWH of hosts from the creation of that throne in the created heaven.

When He takes His great power and reigns over this earth as the Son of Man, when He returns on His throne of glory, then He will sit upon the throne of David, the throne of Firstborn that has been promised since the beginning that He inherits as the Only begotten human being, of the Father.

[Cubes]

Quote (Guest @ July 24 2005,23:29)

Quote (vicalcabasa @ July 24 2005,17:04) You don't count your WORD as another person, do you?  Do people relate to your WORD in one way and to you in another way? The simple answer of course is both NO. So what do we have here? We have one God, One Person Speaking. Just one and only God speaking all things into existence. Isn’t that how John 1 said it about the LOGOS of God? That all things were created through him? Remember Genesis 1? And GOD SAID let there be ….. So there is no triune mystery in the being of god. HE came from God and returned to God just as what the bible said. John 1 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. Use of personal pronouns = a person.

To Guest: Yes, Jesus is a person.

To Vic: True that, Jesus proceeds from God being begotten of him, and has now returned to be with the God who spoke him into being and begat him…sitting at God's right hand like it is written… even in John 1:1! He is with God and is not the God that he is with!

[Cubes]

Quote (vicalcabasa @ July 26 2005,03:12)

You’re beliefs are well crafted and very elaborate. I give that to you. But all of this is still founded in your view that The Father is equal to the Son and equal to the Spirit. Three beings in one Godhead. Let me enumerate some popular passages… 1.  “ I was brought forth …” The wisdom of God speaking in prov 8 2.   I came from the Father 3.   The Father has sent me 4.   The Father is greater than I 5.   God and Father above all 6.   Christ being subjected to God 7.   Christ sitting in the right hand of God. 8.   The Spirit going forth from the Father 9.   The Father created all things thru Him 10.  HE was at the bosom of the Father These were the WORDS the BIBLE used to describe Jesus with relation to the Father? Do the verses above convey equality?  Do we understand Jesus the way the writers of the bible understood them? Honestly not. And yet the bible chose to use those words. (The verses seem more likely to convey that the spirit and the word came out from God, NOT as if the three were standing side by side as the trinity would convey) 2 Tim 2:2 2 And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable men who will also be qualified to teach others NIV What’s wrong if we teach these exactly as they were written? Why teach a “version” of the message of the bible by teaching with words like co-equal, 1st person, 2nd person, 3rd person, and trinity? The Bible never used these words. It is coined by men. Therefore its human teachings, not the bible’s. 1 John 1:3-4 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4. NIV Jesus said that he came that we may know the Father, The One True God and that we may understand Him. Now you have a doctrine that say God is One in three beings. But they are not really three but one. You see how difficult and complicated the doctrine has sounded to be? So a little yeast can corrupt the whole dough. Let’s all keep searching for the truth continually learning to properly divide the word of God.

God bless you, Vic. Well said.

1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

1Ti 6:20 O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly {and} empty chatter {and} the opposing arguments of what is falsely called “knowledge”–
1Ti 6:21 which some have professed and thus gone astray from the faith. Grace be with you.

[Cubes]

Quote (Guest @ July 26 2005,04:53)

YIPES!- I just noticed that you called God three beings. No place in Scripture is the YHWH three beings. One being, three revealed Persons. Adam is one being, multiplied billions and billions of persons. The word 'one' is echad, and is used for YHWH the Elohim of Israel, ONE YHWH, in Deuteronomy 6, and is used of Adam, in Malachi 2;15 who is also one being, billions and billions of persons. Adam is one, echad. YHWH the Elohim (plural, the 'US', who is 'HE' of Genesis 1:26-28) is ONE, ECHAD.

This is false, IAR.

The Holy Scriptures do not teach that so excuse me while I tune out.

Adam is billions preceded by ONE individual.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Guest @ July 26 2005,17:02)

Quote (Guest @ July 26 2005,11:59) Main Entry: equal·i·ty Pronunciation: i-'kwä-l&-tE Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural -ties 1 : the quality or state of being equal 2 : EQUATION 2a Main Entry: 1equal Pronunciation: 'E-kw&l Function: adjective Etymology: Middle English, from Latin aequalis, from aequus level, equal 1 a (1) : of the same measure, quantity, amount, or number as another (2) : identical in mathematical value or logical denotation : EQUIVALENT b : like in quality, nature, or status c : like for each member of a group, class, or society 2 : regarding or affecting all objects in the same way : IMPARTIAL 3 : free from extremes: as a : tranquil in mind or mood b : not showing variation in appearance, structure, or proportion 4 a : capable of meeting the requirements of a situation or a task b : SUITABLE synonym see SAME 8 entries found for same. To select an entry, click on it.  same[1,adjective]same[2,pronoun]same[3,adverb]boat[1,noun]breathtar[2,transitive verb]time[1,noun]token[1,noun]   Main Entry: 1same Pronunciation: 'sAm Function: adjective Etymology: Middle English, from Old Norse samr; akin to Old High German sama same, Latin simulis like, simul together, at the same time, similis like, sem- one, Greek homos same, hama together, hen-, heis one 1 a : resembling in every relevant respect b : conforming in every respect — used with as 2 a : being one without addition, change, or discontinuance : IDENTICAL b : being the one under discussion or already referred to 3 : corresponding so closely as to be indistinguishable 4 : equal in size, shape, value, or importance — usually used with the or a demonstrative (as that, those) in all senses synonyms SAME, SELFSAME, VERY, IDENTICAL, EQUIVALENT, EQUAL mean not different or not differing from one another. SAME may imply and SELFSAME always implies that the things under consideration are one thing and not two or more things . VERY, like SELFSAME, may imply identity, or, like SAME, may imply likeness in kind . IDENTICAL may imply selfsameness or suggest absolute agreement in all details . EQUIVALENT implies amounting to the same thing in worth or significance . EQUAL implies being identical in value, magnitude, or some specified quality . YHWH, ELOHIM created all things in heaven and earth in six days, all the host of them, both the spiritual realm and the physical realm were created in the six days, both the angelic beings who inhabit the spiritual realm and the sun, moon and stars, were created in the six days by YHWH Elohim. In the created heaven, He created a throne, and on that throne, YHWH of hosts reigned in glory over His creation from the beginning, in the only similitude visible to angels or Adam kind, the second Person of the YHWH of hosts, who came down from that throne in His glory to come ‘incarnate‘ in the New Man, the Israel Man human body that was prepared for Him by His Spirit, the third Person of the YHWH of hosts, and prepared in the womb of the virgin for His habitation as the Human who would be the Redeemer-Kinsman of the Adam and the Adam‘s dominion that YHWH had given the Adam. If Nick  would be schooled in the word of God -from the beginning- he'd know the truth about the prepared throne in the created heaven and Who it is who sat there and came incarnate and ascended in the New creation human body, of the New Man, the Israel, who is still 'in flesh' in His human habitation that He humbled Himself to inhabit as a servant for our salvation for those of us who are Believers in Him, Who is the 'Fellow' with the Father. The throne of God is now occupied by a human being, who is YHWH of hosts incarnate, and glorified; it is the throne that He sat upon as YHWH of hosts from the creation of that throne in the created heaven. When He takes His great power and reigns over this earth as the Son of Man, when He returns on His throne of glory, then He will sit upon the throne of David, the throne of Firstborn that has been promised since the beginning that He inherits as the  Only begotten human being, of the Father.

Hi,
You seem to provide very little evidence for what you teach so confidently. Is scripture your only source for this information or do you have other sources?

God, who is the Father and YHWH, created all things by himself. He created all things through his Son.Thus His Son is not YHWH.In fact His Son is “the firstborn of all creation”[Coll1.15]”the beginning”[Coll 1.19]and “the beginning of the creation of God”[Rev3.14]

God, who is the Father and YHWH is the only Saviour.[1Tim 2.3,4.10] But He saves through His Son and the servants of His Son [2Tim 1.10].

God, who is the Father and YHWH is the King of Kings.
1Tim 1.17
“Now to the King, eternal, immortal, invisible, the ONLY God, be honor and glory forever and ever.”
Of course He reigns through His Son[Ps2].

God, who is the Father and YHWH is the Redeemer of His people. But he sent His only begotten Son through whom we are redeemed to God.[1 Tim 2.5-7]

1Tim 5.21
“I solemnly charge you in the presence of
GOD and of JESUS CHRIST
and of His Holy angels
to maintain these priciples without bias”
1Tim 6.13
” I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Jesus Christ, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate, that you keep the commandment without stain of reproach until the comming of our Lord Jesus Christ, which He will bring about at the proper time-He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, who alone posses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal Dominion!Amen”

God is YHWH. The Son of God is the Son of God.

[epistemaniac]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 26 2005,05:34)

Hi E, “He did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped” Now simple reading of that phrase suggests he is not currently equal wiith God. It suggests he has to grasp equality to have it. Certainly the greek supports that idea as 'Hapazo” and it's related greek words means to “take by force”, to “steal” or “rob” or “pillage”-all words that suggest violence and taking what does not belong by right. Do those phrases suit your view of the nature of Christ? Is he not meek and humble of heart? Is he not submissive and obedient?. How anyone can read this verse and read it as the Christ having equality with God and deciding not to hold on to it beats me.

the simple reading is that since He is equal to God, He does not need to grasp after equality, as it is already His….

[NickHassan]

Hi E,
Grasping AFTER?
Like grasping AT perhaps?
Or GRABBING?

No the Begotten Son is not equal to the God who begat him.

[Anonymous]

Quote (epistemaniac @ July 26 2005,21:22)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 26 2005,05:34) Hi E, “He did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped” Now simple reading of that phrase suggests he is not currently equal wiith God. It suggests he has to grasp equality to have it. Certainly the greek supports that idea as 'Hapazo” and it's related greek words means to “take by force”, to “steal” or “rob” or “pillage”-all words that suggest violence and taking what does not belong by right. Do those phrases suit your view of the nature of Christ? Is he not meek and humble of heart? Is he not submissive and obedient?. How anyone can read this verse and read it as the Christ having equality with God and deciding not to hold on to it beats me. the simple reading is that since He is equal to God, He does not need to grasp after equality, as it is already His….

Exodus 24:
9 Then Moses went up, also Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, 10 and they saw the God of Israel. And there was under His feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone, and it was like the very heavens in its clarity. 11 But on the nobles of the children of Israel He did not lay His hand. So they saw God, and they ate and drank.

The God who is YHWH of hosts who was to come (Jesus Christ), is the God in whose image Adam was made.

The word declares that Adam was made in the image and likeness of God, who was to come, the YHWH of hosts incarnate -that means ‘in flesh‘.

When He, YHWH of hosts -the second Person of the One YHWH, who was Himself the glory of God- came, He came in the likeness of sinful flesh, but without sin, as the Firstborn of the New Man creation, the Israel-kind, brother to Adam and Adam’s legal Kinsman-Redeemer who had the legal right by birth -from the virgin woman’s womb- and the power of Life in Himself, to redeem his brother, Adam: and Adam’s seed, and all Adam’s lost corrupted cursed kingdom that the Father had given Adam and Adam had sold into sin and slavery (Adam’s fall brought the curse to his entire kingdom also, and it needed redemption)..

““““““““
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Adam, the first human, is the figure of Him that was to come; that One who was to come is YHWH of hosts, the second Person of the YHWH, who sat upon His created throne in His created heaven as the glory of God in Person.
“““““““
Jam 3:9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.

We were made in the likeness of God for the purpose of being temples for His Presence of glory to inhabit, as sons of Elohim.
““““`

Num 12:6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, [and] will speak unto him in a dream.
Num 12:7 My servant Moses [is] not so, who [is] faithful in all mine house.

Num 12:8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?

YHWH of hosts spoke to Moses, mouth to mouth, and Moses saw His likeness -His similitude.
~~~~~~~~~`

1Cr 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover [his] head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

Adam was made in the image and glory of God, as Elohim’s son, and the glory has departed, with which the Adam was crowned, and that is the first death that brought physical death upon the Adam, so that he would not live forever in the cursed clay vessel, humiliated, shamed, glory-less; but the glory is what the Last Adam came to Ransom us back for, for the Father.

~~~~~~~~~
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; -Jesus; YESHUA, came to redeem us back for glory.
~~~~~~~~~

Ezekiel saw the similitude of YHWH, the Pre-incarnate LORD Jesus Christ in His glory on His throne and returning to the millennial temple in Jerusalem in the Person of the risen glorified LORD Jesus Christ.

Eze 1:26 And above 04605 the firmament 07549 that [was] over their heads 07218 [was] the likeness 01823 of a throne 03678, as the appearance 04758 of a sapphire 05601 stone 068: and upon the likeness 01823 of the throne 03678 [was] the likeness 01823 as the appearance 04758 of a man 0120 above 04605 upon it.

Eze 1:28 As the appearance 04758 of the bow 07198 that is in the cloud 06051 in the day 03117 of rain 01653, so [was] the appearance 04758 of the brightness 05051 round about 05439. This [was] the appearance 04758 of the likeness 01823 of the glory 03519 of the LORD 03068. And when I saw 07200 [it], I fell 05307 upon my face 06440, and I heard 08085 a voice 06963 of one that spake 01696 .

Eze 8:2 Then I beheld 07200 , and lo a likeness 01823 as the appearance 04758 of fire 0784: from the appearance 04758 of his loins 04975 even downward 04295, fire 0784; and from his loins 04975 even upward 04605, as the appearance 04758 of brightness 02096, as the colour 05869 of amber 02830.

Eze 8:4 And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel [was] there, according to the vision that I saw in the plain.

Eze 10:1 Then I looked 07200 , and, behold, in the firmament 07549 that was above the head 07218 of the cherubims 03742 there appeared 07200 over them as it were a sapphire 05601 stone 068, as the appearance 04758 of the likeness 01823 of a throne 03678. [had] the writer's inkhorn by his side;
Eze 10:19 And the cherubims lifted up their wings, and mounted up from the earth in my sight: when they went out, the wheels also [were] beside them, and [every one] stood at the door of the east gate of the LORD'S house; and the glory of the God of Israel [was] over them above.
Eze 11:22 Then did the cherubims lift up their wings, and the wheels beside them; and the glory of the God of Israel [was] over them above.

Eze 43:2 And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east: and his voice [was] like a noise of many waters: and the earth shined with his glory.

Jesus returns in Person in Ezekiel 43 to sit upon His throne in the rebuilt temple as God in flesh, YHWH of hosts incarnate.
~“`

Gen 1:26 And God 0430 said 0559 , Let us make 06213 man 0120 in our image 06754, after our likeness 01823: and let them have dominion 07287 over the fish 01710 of the sea 03220, and over the fowl 05775 of the air 08064, and over the cattle 0929, and over all the earth 0776, and over every creeping thing 07431 that creepeth 07430 upon the earth 0776.

Gen 5:1 This 02088 [is] the book 05612 of the generations 08435 of Adam 0121. In the day 03117 that God 0430 created 01254 man 0120, in the likeness 01823 of God 0430 made 06213 he him;

~~~~~~~~~~~~
If we receive Jesus Christ as LORD and Savior, repent of our sins and call upon His name, He will give us His spirit of regeneration and we shall be resurrected in His image.

Psa 17:15 As for me, I will behold 02372 thy face 06440 in righteousness 06664: I shall be satisfied 07646 , when I awake 06974 , with thy likeness 08544.

His purpose in coming is to bring us back to the glory we first housed, in our being, and that
is the Redemption He finished the work for, by the blood of the New Man, YHWH of Hosts incarnate -in flesh- shed upon the altar of sacrificew, the cross: He is our God who has become our YESHUA; our YHWH in flesh -who has come to rescue His own.

Jam 3:9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Guest @ July 26 2005,21:40)

Quote (epistemaniac @ July 26 2005,21:22) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 26 2005,05:34) Hi E, “He did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped” Now simple reading of that phrase suggests he is not currently equal wiith God. It suggests he has to grasp equality to have it. Certainly the greek supports that idea as 'Hapazo” and it's related greek words means to “take by force”, to “steal” or “rob” or “pillage”-all words that suggest violence and taking what does not belong by right. Do those phrases suit your view of the nature of Christ? Is he not meek and humble of heart? Is he not submissive and obedient?. How anyone can read this verse and read it as the Christ having equality with God and deciding not to hold on to it beats me. the simple reading is that since He is equal to God, He does not need to grasp after equality, as it is already His…. Exodus 24: 9 Then Moses went up, also Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, 10 and they saw the God of Israel. And there was under His feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone, and it was like the very heavens in its clarity. 11 But on the nobles of the children of Israel He did not lay His hand. So they saw God, and they ate and drank. The God who is YHWH of hosts who was to come (Jesus Christ), is the God in whose image Adam was made. The word declares that Adam was made in the image and likeness of God, who was to come, the YHWH of hosts incarnate -that means ‘in flesh‘. When He, YHWH of hosts -the second Person of the One YHWH, who was Himself the glory of God-  came, He came in the likeness of sinful flesh, but without sin, as the Firstborn of the New Man creation, the Israel-kind, brother to Adam and Adam’s legal Kinsman-Redeemer who had the legal right by birth -from the virgin woman’s womb- and the power of Life in Himself, to redeem his brother, Adam: and Adam’s seed, and all Adam’s lost corrupted cursed kingdom that the Father had given Adam and Adam had sold into sin and slavery (Adam’s fall brought the curse to his entire kingdom also, and it needed redemption).. ““““““““ Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. Adam, the first human, is the figure of Him that was to come; that One who was to come is YHWH of hosts, the second Person of the YHWH, who sat upon His created throne in His created heaven as the glory of God in Person. “““““““ Jam 3:9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God. We were made in the likeness of God for the purpose of being temples for His Presence of glory to inhabit, as sons of Elohim.  ““““` Num 12:6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, [and] will speak unto him in a dream. Num 12:7 My servant Moses [is] not so, who [is] faithful in all mine house. Num 12:8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?  YHWH of hosts spoke to Moses, mouth to mouth, and Moses saw His likeness -His similitude. ~~~~~~~~~` 1Cr 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover [his] head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. Adam was made in the image and glory of God, as Elohim’s son, and the glory has departed, with which the Adam was crowned, and that is the first death that brought physical death upon the Adam, so that he would not live forever in the cursed clay vessel, humiliated, shamed, glory-less; but the glory is what the Last Adam came to Ransom us back for, for the Father. ~~~~~~~~~ Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; -Jesus; YESHUA, came to redeem us back for glory. ~~~~~~~~~ Ezekiel saw the similitude of YHWH, the Pre-incarnate LORD Jesus Christ in His glory on His throne and returning to the millennial temple in Jerusalem in the Person of the risen glorified LORD Jesus Christ. Eze 1:26 And above 04605 the firmament 07549 that [was] over their heads 07218 [was] the likeness 01823 of a throne 03678, as the appearance 04758 of a sapphire 05601 stone 068: and upon the likeness 01823 of the throne 03678 [was] the likeness 01823 as the appearance 04758 of a man 0120 above 04605 upon it. Eze 1:28 As the appearance 04758 of the bow 07198 that is in the cloud 06051 in the day 03117 of rain 01653, so [was] the appearance 04758 of the brightness 05051 round about 05439. This [was] the appearance 04758 of the likeness 01823 of the glory 03519 of the LORD 03068. And when I saw 07200 [it], I fell 05307 upon my face 06440, and I heard 08085 a voice 06963 of one that spake 01696 . Eze 8:2 Then I beheld 07200 , and lo a likeness 01823 as the appearance 04758 of fire 0784: from the appearance 04758 of his loins 04975 even downward 04295, fire 0784; and from his loins 04975 even upward 04605, as the appearance 04758 of brightness 02096, as the colour 05869 of amber 02830. Eze 8:4 And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel [was] there, according to the vision that I saw in the plain. Eze 10:1 Then I looked 07200 , and, behold, in the firmament 07549 that was above the head 07218 of the cherubims 03742 there appeared 07200 over them as it were a sapphire 05601 stone 068, as the appearance 04758 of the likeness 01823 of a throne 03678. [had] the writer's inkhorn by his side; Eze 10:19 And the cherubims lifted up their wings, and mounted up from the earth in my sight: when they went out, the wheels also [were] beside them, and [every one] stood at the door of the east gate of the LORD'S house; and the glory of the God of Israel [was] over them above. Eze 11:22 Then did the cherubims lift up their wings, and the wheels beside them; and the glory of the God of Israel [was] over them above. Eze 43:2 And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east: and his voice [was] like a noise of many waters: and the earth shined with his glory. Jesus returns in Person in Ezekiel 43 to sit upon His throne in the rebuilt temple as God in flesh, YHWH of hosts incarnate. ~“` Gen 1:26 And God 0430 said 0559 , Let us make 06213 man 0120 in our image 06754, after our likeness 01823: and let them have dominion 07287 over the fish 01710 of the sea 03220, and over the fowl 05775 of the air 08064, and over the cattle 0929, and over all the earth 0776, and over every creeping thing 07431 that creepeth 07430 upon the earth 0776. Gen 5:1 This 02088 [is] the book 05612 of the generations 08435 of Adam 0121. In the day 03117 that God 0430 created 01254 man 0120, in the likeness 01823 of God 0430 made 06213 he him; ~~~~~~~~~~~~ If we receive Jesus Christ as LORD and Savior, repent of our sins and call upon His name, He will give us His spirit of regeneration and we shall be resurrected in His image. Psa 17:15 As for me, I will behold 02372 thy face 06440 in righteous ness 06664: I shall be satisfied 07646 , when I awake 06974 , with thy likeness 08544. His purpose in coming is to bring us back to the glory we first housed, in our being, and that is the Redemption He finished the work for, by the blood of the New Man, YHWH of Hosts incarnate -in flesh- shed upon the altar of sacrificew, the cross: He is our God who has become our YESHUA; our YHWH in flesh -who has come to rescue His own. Jam 3:9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.

Hi E,
I have read and read those verses in Exodus 24 and Ezekiel and I do not see “Jesus Christ” written.
Am I missing something or do I have to read between the lines and PRESUME or DEDUCE by a process of exclusion that it is him?
That is not how to rightly divide scripture.

[NickHassan]

Hi I,
Since you have failed to show any evidence in support of your theory about “multiple persons in God” despite repeated reminders can we assume such scriptural evidence does not exist and your theory should be allowed to elapse?

[Anonymous]

Quote (Cubes @ July 26 2005,19:15)

Quote (Guest @ July 26 2005,04:53) YIPES!- I just noticed that you called God three beings. No place in Scripture is the YHWH three beings. One being, three revealed Persons. Adam is one being, multiplied billions and billions of persons. The word 'one' is echad, and is used for YHWH the Elohim of Israel, ONE YHWH, in Deuteronomy 6, and is used of Adam, in Malachi 2;15 who is also one being, billions and billions of persons. Adam is one, echad. YHWH the Elohim (plural, the 'US', who is 'HE' of Genesis 1:26-28) is ONE, ECHAD. This is false, IAR.   The Holy Scriptures do not teach that so excuse me while I tune out. Adam is billions preceded by ONE individual.

Do you mean that you do not read the scriptures for the doctrine of Christ?

He told the Jews who refused Him of His day; “You search the scriptures for in them you think you have life, but they are they which testify of Me, and you will not come to me that you may have life.”

I wrote you previously when you afterwards said that I had said that God was three beings; and I had not caught that statement by you that was exactly not what I had ever said;

In the Bible;
God is One Being, YHWH of hosts.

Adam is one being, male and female, multiplied billions of times.

In the word of God, YHWH of hosts is 'seen' as the Pre-incarnate LORD Jesus Christ, who is the God of glory, and seen as the God of Israel; and the God of Israel is YHWH of hosts, and the God of Israel is the true God, and the God of Israel is YESHUA, who was bound to the altar and became our salvation, whose Day Abraham saw and rejoiced in seeing, when he acted out -as a prophet- the oracle of the sacrifice of the 'monogenes' son of God, YHWH to come, on Mount Calvary, where Abraham said; On this mount, YHWH will be seen, after the oracle was completed. -Genesis 22

To Redeem is to buy back.

The last state of the creation is more glorious than the beginning, for the glory that we (those who are born again) shall have in the New Man's image is more glorious than the glory that Adam had, in the beginning, for Adam is from beneath, the New Man is the YHWH from heaven, and when we bear the image of the 'Israel' who is YHWH in 'carnate', then by adoption, the glory that shall be revealed in we who are born again shall shine like the sun -in some..

YHWH is the Being that inhabits eternity as the I AM THAT I AM; HE just is! the eternally self existent One.

The One that YHWH the Elohim is is the same kind of one that all mankind is.

YHWH Elohim made Adam one, (Genesis 1:26-28; Malachi 2:15) not three billion billion billions different beings, but one being.

But the YHWH, who is not made, is three Persons, and the Father, the first Person of the YHWH is never seen, has never been seen, and never shall be seen. Absolutely never!

The Second person, the LOGOS, the WORD, came incarnate, and as YHWH of hosts incarnate, He is the Firstborn over all creation, for He purchased back to the Father that which was lost, for His habitation again.

Look; the Son in His humanity went to the cross to prepare us a habitation fit for the Presence of the Father to inhabit as He did in the beginning.

“In My Father's house (the created heaven) are many dwelling places; I go [to the cross] to prepare a 'place' for you.”

We were 'dwelling places' for the Presence of His glory, in the beginning, when we were made from the dust, breathed into, and He formed a spirit within us, and made all the Adam a being fit for the habitation of the Presence of the glory to indwell.

That is what we lost in the fall, and that is what the New Man came to Redeem us back to the Father for; to be vessels fit for His holy habitation.

[epistemaniac]

t8, you said “The point is that even if he were equal to God as you are saying then that shows that he is not God. If you are equal to anything then it shows that you are not that thing you are equal too.”

Exactly! The point here is that while Jesus is equal to God in regard to His essence, He and the Father are not the same in identity. That is, the Father is not the Son.

“E.g., If you come first EQUAL in a race, does that mean that both racers were the same person?”
Faulty analogy. God’s nature is utterly unique as to His essence or nature, and thus any attempt to equate God’s nature with a human footrace is bound to fall short, it happens rather quickly in this case.

“If 1 bar of Gold is equal to $5000.00, then are they the same object? Of course not.”
This is a confusion of categories. You are taking a physical object, in this case gold, and attempting to show that the ontological and metaphysical categories I am speaking in do not correspond. And while you are correct, it is also irrelevant. In this case a metaphysical being, a being that is spirit, can be spoken of as having one essence while this essence can be at the same time spoken of being in 3 persons without “breaking” the essence itself. And this is where your analogy falls apart, you can't speak of a physical object as being itself (A) and not being itself (~A) , for the object is restricted to a time and space existence, and thus a basic law of reasoning is the simple formula A is A. However, this particualr restriction does not apply to God, who is Spirit. In this case a certain being, whom we call “God”, we could say is A, while always being A in an absolute sense, A can remain A so long as when we speak of it in different ways (say B, C and D, or as Father, Son and Spirit) so long as when we speak of B, C and D we never say that A ceases to be A. The obvious point here is that God is A, and speaking of Him as Father, Son and Holy Spirit never, ever, means that we are have claimed to change the very nature of A to something it is not, ie non A.

“If Yeshua is equal to God, then is he God? Of course not. He is like him. The fact that he is equal to God means that he is not God himself.”
If Jesus is equal to God, then is He God? Of course. What you are doing is apparently failing to subjectively properly translate the term “God” to “Father”. The only way your sentence “If Yeshua is equal to God, then is he God?” …. could be not true is if we wrote something like “If Yeshua is equal to God, then is he the Father?” Then your answer “Of course not.” would be exactly correct. For Jesus is not in fact the Father. This error comes into Unitarian thinking so much that it is simply amazing. Partly this is due to attempts made to engage in equivocation of terms so as to try and make logical statements or concepts (A is A for instance) into illogical statements (ie the claim that A is A but then claiming that at the same time and in the same relationship A is non-A) . These attempts can probably effective in many cases, and this is sad because people may come away with the idea that you have made an important point when in reality all you have done is to have created a straw man, and then proceeded to knock it down. Feels pretty good I am sure, but really doesn’t accomplish anything meaningful.

“Philippians 2:6
Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

The word “equal” in this verse is the Greek word “isos” which can mean

* similar in amount Or kind
* agree
* equal
* like

This verse is simply saying that Jesus has the nature of God and is like God. This is what the rest of the New Testament teaches including John 1:1. Jesus is god (adjective, not noun) by class, not God (noun) in identity . God begat a son in his likeness, the likeness of himself, (Image of God, firstborn). Then through his son he made creation and us.”

Yes, this verse is saying that Jesus has the nature of God, you are correct there. Where you fail to connect the dots is to make the natural step in reasoning which says that if Jesus has the same nature as God, He must in fact be God. Just as a human has a child that is of a like nature, so too, the only begotten Son is of the same nature as His Father. Simple really.

You could see this obvious point if you would stop trying to read Scriptures through Unitarian shaded glasses.

blessings

[Anonymous]

Quote (Guest @ July 26 2005,21:43)

Quote (epistemaniac @ July 26 2005,21:22) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 26 2005,05:34) Hi E, “He did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped” Now simple reading of that phrase suggests he is not currently equal wiith God. It suggests he has to grasp equality to have it. Certainly the greek supports that idea as 'Hapazo” and it's related greek words means to “take by force”, to “steal” or “rob” or “pillage”-all words that suggest violence and taking what does not belong by right. Do those phrases suit your view of the nature of Christ? Is he not meek and humble of heart? Is he not submissive and obedient?. How anyone can read this verse and read it as the Christ having equality with God and deciding not to hold on to it beats me. the simple reading is that since He is equal to God, He does not need to grasp after equality, as it is already His…. Exodus 24: 9 Then Moses went up, also Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, 10 and they saw the God of Israel. And there was under His feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone, and it was like the very heavens in its clarity. 11 But on the nobles of the children of Israel He did not lay His hand. So they saw God, and they ate and drank. The God who is YHWH of hosts who was to come (Jesus Christ), is the God in whose image Adam was made. The word declares that Adam was made in the image and likeness of God, who was to come, the YHWH of hosts incarnate -that means ‘in flesh‘. When He, YHWH of hosts -the second Person of the One YHWH, who was Himself the glory of God-  came, He came in the likeness of sinful flesh, but without sin, as the Firstborn of the New Man creation, the Israel-kind, brother to Adam and Adam’s legal Kinsman-Redeemer who had the legal right by birth -from the virgin woman’s womb- and the power of Life in Himself, to redeem his brother, Adam: and Adam’s seed, and all Adam’s lost corrupted cursed kingdom that the Father had given Adam and Adam had sold into sin and slavery (Adam’s fall brought the curse to his entire kingdom also, and it needed redemption).. ““““““““ Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. Adam, the first human, is the figure of Him that was to come; that One who was to come is YHWH of hosts, the second Person of the YHWH, who sat upon His created throne in His created heaven as the glory of God in Person. “““““““ Jam 3:9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God. We were made in the likeness of God for the purpose of being temples for His Presence of glory to inhabit, as sons of Elohim.  ““““` Num 12:6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, [and] will speak unto him in a dream. Num 12:7 My servant Moses [is] not so, who [is] faithful in all mine house. Num 12:8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?  YHWH of hosts spoke to Moses, mouth to mouth, and Moses saw His likeness -His similitude. ~~~~~~~~~` 1Cr 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover [his] head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. Adam was made in the image and glory of God, as Elohim’s son, and the glory has departed, with which the Adam was crowned, and that is the first death that brought physical death upon the Adam, so that he would not live forever in the cursed clay vessel, humiliated, shamed, glory-less; but the glory is what the Last Adam came to Ransom us back for, for the Father. ~~~~~~~~~ Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; -Jesus; YESHUA, came to redeem us back for glory. ~~~~~~~~~ Ezekiel saw the similitude of YHWH, the Pre-incarnate LORD Jesus Christ in His glory on His throne and returning to the millennial temple in Jerusalem in the Person of the risen glorified LORD Jesus Christ. Eze 1:26 And above 04605 the firmament 07549 that [was] over their heads 07218 [was] the likeness 01823 of a throne 03678, as the appearance 04758 of a sapphire 05601 stone 068: and upon the likeness 01823 of the throne 03678 [was] the likeness 01823 as the appearance 04758 of a man 0120 above 04605 upon it. Eze 1:28 As the appearance 04758 of the bow 07198 that is in the cloud 06051 in the day 03117 of rain 01653, so [was] the appearance 04758 of the brightness 05051 round about 05439. This [was] the appearance 04758 of the likeness 01823 of the glory 03519 of the LORD 03068. And when I saw 07200 [it], I fell 05307 upon my face 06440, and I heard 08085 a voice 06963 of one that spake 01696 . Eze 8:2 Then I beheld 07200 , and lo a likeness 01823 as the appearance 04758 of fire 0784: from the appearance 04758 of his loins 04975 even downward 04295, fire 0784; and from his loins 04975 even upward 04605, as the appearance 04758 of brightness 02096, as the colour 05869 of amber 02830. Eze 8:4 And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel [was] there, according to the vision that I saw in the plain. Eze 10:1 Then I looked 07200 , and, behold, in the firmament 07549 that was above the head 07218 of the cherubims 03742 there appeared 07200 over them as it were a sapphire 05601 stone 068, as the appearance 04758 of the likeness 01823 of a throne 03678. [had] the writer's inkhorn by his side; Eze 10:19 And the cherubims lifted up their wings, and mounted up from the earth in my sight: when they went out, the wheels also [were] beside them, and [every one] stood at the door of the east gate of the LORD'S house; and the glory of the God of Israel [was] over them above. Eze 11:22 Then did the cherubims lift up their wings, and the wheels beside them; and the glory of the God of Israel [was] over them above. Eze 43:2 And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east: and his voice [was] like a noise of many waters: and the earth shined with his glory. Jesus returns in Person in Ezekiel 43 to sit upon His throne in the rebuilt temple as God in flesh, YHWH of hosts incarnate. ~“` Gen 1:26 And God 0430 said 0559 , Let us make 06213 man 0120 in our image 06754, after our likeness 01823: and let them have dominion 07287 over the fish 01710 of the sea 03220, and over the fowl 05775 of the air 08064, and over the cattle 0929, and over all the earth 0776, and over every creeping thing 07431 that creepeth 07430 upon the earth 0776. Gen 5:1 This 02088 [is] the book 05612 of the generations 08435 of Adam 0121. In the day 03117 that God 0430 created 01254 man 0120, in the likeness 01823 of God 0430 made 06213 he him; ~~~~~~~~~~~~ If we receive Jesus Christ as LORD and Savior, repent of our sins and call upon His name, He will give us His spirit of regeneration and we shall be resurrected in His image. Psa 17:15 As for me, I will behold 02372 thy face 06440 in righteous ness 06664: I shall be satisfied 07646 , when I awake 06974 , with thy likeness 08544. His purpose in coming is to bring us back to the glory we first housed, in our being, and that is the Redemption He finished the work for, by the blood of the New Man, YHWH of Hosts incarnate -in flesh- shed upon the altar of sacrificew, the cross: He is our God who has become our YESHUA; our YHWH in flesh -who has come to rescue His own. Jam 3:9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.

Rom 5:14 “Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

figure; tupos {too'-pos}
1) the mark of a stroke or blow, print

2) a figure formed by a blow or impression

a) of a figure or image

b) of the image of the gods

3) form

a) the teaching which embodies the sum and substance of religion and represents it to the mind, manner of writing, the contents and form of a letter

4) an example

a) in the technical sense, the pattern in conformity to which a thing must be made

b) in an ethical sense, a dissuasive example, a pattern of warning

1) of ruinous events which serve as admonitions or warnings to others

c) an example to be imitated

1) of men worthy of imitation

d) in a doctrinal sense

1) of a type i.e. a person or thing prefiguring a future (Messianic) person or thing

Adam was made in the image of Him who was to come, in the image of God.
God in flesh is come, and He is Jesus Christ, YHWH of hosts who sat upon His created throne in His created heaven from the beginning, as YHWH of hosts, prior to emptying Himself of His glory and coming in the likeness of sinful flesh to be our Kinsman redeemer in His body of flesh.
John said Isaiah saw Him; Jesus Christ, on His throne in glory.

John 12:37-41.
I think you have never read that passage, to deny that Jesus Christ was on His throne in glory whom Isaiah saw, in Isaiah 6, for John tells you in no uncertain terms that it was Jesus whom John saw.

Nick,
You did not read the lesson, for if you had, you would have seen that Adam was made in the image of God -which is the image of the LORD Jesus Christ, Himself, who was to come.

(and fell from the position of temple of God for His Presence of glory to inhabit).

Jesus Christ is God, YHWH of hosts, who was to come, and is now come, in flesh.

The Father did not come in flesh.
God came in flesh, and is in flesh.

Moses saw the image of the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ, The similitude of YHWH.

Ezekiel saw the image of the Pre-incarnate Jesus Christ, the similitude of YHWH and the likeness of His glory.

That is not my word, that is the Word of God.
I gave ample scriptures to show the likeness of God is seen in the Person of YHWH of hosts second Person, who came in flesh as the humble servant.

[NickHassan]

Hi E,
So Because God is God and we cannot hope to understand him then no boundaries can be placed on how we allow His nature to be disclosed? We simply say that all that is illogical is “Mystery”.That sort of logic has been used by the Whore of Babylon since 200 ad. It is a “control mechanism” that allows control by confusion.
So you say the Son was begotten as an image from God and yet you say is equal to the God that begat him? If the Son was always equal to God and he was given even greater glory after his victory in obedience to God what greater honor could he receive? Is there greater honour than equality with God? The only greater staet would be to become greater than God Himself. Is that what you see?
We do not connect dots. We find connection or we do not. That connection cannot be assumed to exist.That is presumption.

[Anonymous]

Quote (epistemaniac @ July 26 2005,22:26)

t8, you said “The point is that even if he were equal to God as you are saying then that shows that he is not God. If you are equal to anything then it shows that you are not that thing you are equal too.” Exactly! The point here is that while Jesus is equal to God in regard to His essence, He and the Father are not the same in identity. That is, the Father is not the Son. “E.g., If you come first EQUAL in a race, does that mean that both racers were the same person?” Faulty analogy. God’s nature is utterly unique as to His essence or nature, and thus any attempt to equate God’s nature  with a human footrace is bound to fall short, it happens rather quickly in this case. “If 1 bar of Gold is equal to $5000.00, then are they the same object? Of course not.” This is a confusion of categories. You are taking a physical object, in this case gold, and attempting to show that the ontological and metaphysical categories I am speaking in do not correspond. And while you are correct, it is also irrelevant. In this case a metaphysical being, a being that is spirit, can be spoken of as having one essence while this essence can be at the same time spoken of being in 3 persons without “breaking” the essence itself. And this is where your analogy falls apart, you can't speak of a physical object as being itself (A) and not being itself (~A) , for the object is restricted to a time and space existence, and thus a basic law of reasoning is the simple formula A is A. However, this particualr restriction does not apply to God, who is Spirit. In this case a certain being, whom we call “God”, we could say is A, while always being A in an absolute sense, A can remain A so long as when we speak of it in different ways (say B, C and D, or as Father, Son and Spirit) so long as when we speak of B, C and D we never say that A ceases to be A. The obvious point here is that God is A, and speaking of Him as Father, Son and Holy Spirit never, ever, means that we are have claimed to change the very nature of A to something it is not, ie non A. “If Yeshua is equal to God, then is he God? Of course not. He is like him. The fact that he is equal to God means that he is not God himself.” If Jesus is equal to God, then is He God? Of course. What you are doing is apparently failing to subjectively properly translate the term “God” to “Father”. The only way your sentence “If Yeshua is equal to God, then is he God?” …. could be not true is if we wrote something like “If Yeshua is equal to God, then is he the Father?” Then your answer “Of course not.” would be exactly correct. For Jesus is not in fact the Father. This error comes into Unitarian thinking so much that it is simply amazing. Partly this is due to attempts made to engage in equivocation of terms so as to try and make logical statements or concepts (A is A for instance) into illogical statements (ie the claim that A is A but then claiming that at the same time and in the same relationship A is non-A) . These attempts can probably effective in many cases, and this is sad because people may come away with the idea that you have made an important point when in reality all you have done is to have created a straw man, and then proceeded to knock it down. Feels pretty good I am sure, but really doesn’t accomplish anything meaningful. “Philippians 2:6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, The word “equal” in this verse is the Greek word “isos” which can mean   * similar in amount Or kind   * agree   * equal   * like This verse is simply saying that Jesus has the nature of God and is like God. This is what the rest of the New Testament teaches including John 1:1. Jesus is god (adjective, not noun) by class, not God (noun) in identity . God begat a son in his likeness, the likeness of himself, (Image of God, firstborn). Then through his son he made creation and us.” Yes, this verse is saying that Jesus has the nature of God, you are correct there. Where you fail to connect the dots is to make the natural step in reasoning which says that if Jesus has the same nature as God, He must in fact be God. Just as a human has a child that is of a like nature, so too, the only begotten Son is of the same nature as His Father. Simple really. You could see this obvious point if you would stop trying to read Scriptures through Unitarian shaded glasses. blessings

Thank you for a very good post.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Concerning Isaiah 6
Jn 12.37f
” But though he had performed so many signs before them yet they were not believing in him; that the word of Isaiah, the prophet, might be fulfilled, which he spoke
'Lord ,who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?'
For this cause they could not believe for Isaiah said again
'He has blinded their eyes, and has hardened their heart; lest they see with their eyes, and perceive with their heart and be converted and I heal them”
These things Isaiah said, because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him”

Whose report? OUR report. Who are we? The Son and the indwelling Father's Spirit.

Whose “arm” has been revealed? The Father's just as Jesus cast out demons [Lk]by the “finger of God”

Who performed signs and healings showing God's power in Him? Jesus Christ.

Who blinded the eyes and hardened the hearts of the listeners to and viewers of Jesus Christ? The Father God.

Whose glory was seen in the temple in Is 6? God's glory, not His being but His glory.

It is God's temple and Jesus is not that God but the Son of God.

[epistemaniac]

Vic, you said “I checked Phil 2:6 from a Trinitarian bible commentator. He said the passage means God and Jesus are equally divine. (wycliffe’s)

But okay given, JESUS Possesses Attributes Which Only God Has
HE has Names and titles of deity.
He received worship, and don’t mind if Thomas called him my God.
And God called him God (The LORD said to his Son, Thy throne O God…)”

Great! Then you realize that Jesus is God! Progress is being made! I had almost left this site in despair!

“But on the same breath he was always quick to say that father is greater. He will always depict himself as subject to the father, his God.”
Yeah? So? This has already been addressed and acknowledged. Jesus has a role to play, and in that role, He places Himself in a place of humiliation, one of being in obedience to the Father. But if you think about it, if one being places itself in a place of willing submission, this never proves that one being is necessarily superior in nature to the other being. In a family, the wife is to place herself in willing submission to her husband, but this never means that she is somehow an inferior being to her husband. The same for the Father and the Son. He can be, and actually is, equal in nature and essence to His Father, while placing Himself in a position of obedience to His Father. Simple stuff really.

“And Jesus is not the Father whom he called the true God”
Yes!! Great!! Move to the head of the class…..

“So clearly by his own declaration Jesus is not the one true God but possess all the quality of being such.”
Uh oh…. Move back to your original seat. Saying that Jesus is not the Father is NOT equal to saying that Jesus is not God, aaarrrgggggggg how many times does this have to be said?

“HAVE you also wondered why throughout the Bible the main titles of JESUS from yesterday (pre-existent/OT) today (NT) and forever (REV) are

The Word of God
The Son of God
The Lamb of God”

Not really… at least not in the sense that these titles in any way detract from His divinity. Again, being the Son of God, as other Scripture attests, as far as the messiah Jesus Christ is concerned, means that Jesus’ nature is the same as that of God, this means He is God., He is the ONLY begotten Son of God, like begets like.

“How come his main titles were always “OF GOD” and not God itself?”
How come God is often referred to with titles that do not have the word “God” in it?…. titles like Jehovah for instance…and Alpha and Omega….. Father…. The Almighty…. Etc etc according to your reasoning, since the Alpha and Omega title does not have the word “God” in it, then the Alpha and Omega must not be God. Riiigghhhtt….

“And the scriptures never plainly taught that Jesus is GOD himself or else there would be no discussion like this.”
Fallacious reasoning. Firstly, to the latter point…. Seems pretty clear to both of us that God exists… right? Yet, there are LOTS of discussions as to whether or not any being called “God” exists. It seems that you take the Scriptures to be the Word of God, yet there are LOTS of discussions on this subject. So the amount of discussion that takes place on a given subject really has nothing to do, in an absolute sense, with the clarity of the subject. Clarity is a subjective state that is not transferable to another, usually.
Secondly, as to the first point, I believe that the Scriptures DO plainly teach that Jesus is God, that happens to be why I believe it to be true. That is, since I hold the Word in high reverence, and I do my best to only believe what they teach, and given these presuppositions, I still believe that the Scriptures teach that Jesus is God, for reasons that I have given here and elsewhere throughout this forum.

“Is it because the Bible doesn’t want us to err that Christianity is polytheistic, in different form with Christian labels?”
This “question” makes no sense to me. Of course the Bible doesn’t want us to err, or rather, God doesn’t since the Scriptures, being merely text, do not have the ability to “want” anything. That being said, the Scriptures also tell us that that they require study, and that not all parts of Scripture are equally clear.

(2 Pet 3:14-16 NKJV) “Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; {15} and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, {16} as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.”

Sometimes things in the Bible are simply hard to understand, sometimes people make things more difficult then they really are.

“How do we reconcile these scriptures?”
By affirming that Jesus is both God and man, by not trying to force the Scriptures that speak of His human nature to seem to contradict His divine nature, and vice versa. Really, the only way to not involve yourself in hopeless contradictions is to affirm that Jesus is the God-man, it’s the only way to make sense of the whole counsel of God.

“And this is my point, if I should make my own doctrine on Christology, this is the idea I will pursue.

JESUS is the ALTER EGO of the INVISIBLE, UNAPPROACHABLE, SPIRIT GOD over His creation.”

If you want to reduce Jesus, the Creator of all that is, the Sovereign Lord of the universe, the only means of salvation, the only way to peace with the Father, to a mere alter ego, then you have far more difficulties then the Trinity.

“To my mind this will solve a lot of problems why Jesus is God and not “the God” at the same time WITHOUT VIOLATING THE IMMUTABILITY OF ONE GOD.”
To my mind you have created far more problems then you solve, in fact, I do not see that conceiving of Jesus as an alter ego solves any problem at all. God’s being is immutable, true. But that doesn’t mean that Jesus can’t be God. The only way God’s immutability would be affected by Jesus’ divinity would be for there to have been a time when the Son was not, and since the doctrine of the Son includes His eternality, then immutability remains intact. Jesus was always God, always will be.

“But then again, if I would just simply accept the doctrine that the bible had already established for us, I would just simply accept and believe its description, that…

JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD.”

AGAIN, the fact that Jesus is the Son of God does not negate the fact that He is of the same essence as God, as you have already wisely admitted.

“And if you believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God…

Let God be true and all men….opinion makers.”
This is exactly what I do….. that’s why I do not allow the Unitarians of various stripes that are at this site sway my views on the nature of God.

“So if Jesus is called the Son of God, where did the title 2nd person of the trinity comes from?
Is the revelation of the Bible not enough that we should coin another title or description for him? Or are we adding to the already revealed Word of God?”
Don’t even start with the “that word or phrase is not found exactly in the Scripture, so it must be false” line of malarkey. Its fallacious reasoning of the worst sort. You use words and especially phrases to describe your views all the time, in fact in this very thread you spoke of “And this is my point, if I should make my own doctrine on Christology, this is the idea I will pursue”…… and let me tell you, if you didn’t already know, the word “Christology” is not
in the Bible anywhere, so if you are free to use words to describe your faith, then it seems very hypocritical of you to not allow others the same privilege.

blessings

[Anonymous]

bump

[epistemaniac]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 26 2005,22:40)

Hi E, So Because God is God and we cannot hope to understand him then no boundaries can be placed on how we allow His nature to be disclosed? We simply say that all that is illogical is “Mystery”.That sort of logic has been used by the Whore of Babylon since 200 ad. It is a “control mechanism” that allows control by confusion. So you say the Son was begotten as an image from God and yet you say is equal to the God that begat him? If the Son was always equal to God and he was given even greater glory after his victory in obedience to God what greater honor could he receive? Is there greater honour than equality with God? The only greater staet would be to become greater than God Himself. Is that what you see? We do not connect dots. We find connection or we do not. That connection cannot be assumed to exist.That is presumption.

What the….. where in the WORLD do you come up with this stuff Nick…..? What does your question pertain to exactly in my post….. ? You know it is common practice to quote someone and then respond to exactly that portion of their post so it is clear what it is you are speaking to or questioning, as it is, your post makes me think to reply thusly…

twas brilig in the slithy tove…..

[Author]

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