Who is this Jesus?

[Anonymous]

Quote (Guest @ July 26 2005,00:59)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 26 2005,00:12) Hi, Where is “incarnation” in the bible? Zech 13.4f “Also it will come about in that day that THE PROPHETS will each be ashamed of his vision when he prophesies, and they will not put on a hairy robe in order to deceive but he will say 'I am not a prophet; I am a tiller of the ground, for a man sold me as a slave in my youth' And one will say to him 'What are those wounds between your arms?' Then he will say 'Those are which I was wounded in the house of my friends” So these lies and deceptions relate to the Son of God, The Truth , in your view? in flesh =incarnate http://machaut.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/WEBSTER.page.sh?PAGE=219 Carnate <XPAGE=219Car"nate (?), a. [L. carnatus fleshy.] Invested with, or embodied in, flesh. Only the returned LORD Jesus Christ is the One who will be asked “what are these wounds in thine hands”, and he will reply, “those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends”. False prophets shall be put to shame, in that day.

Carnate
<XPAGE=219Car"nate (?), a. [L. carnatus fleshy.] Invested with, or embodied in, flesh.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Guest @ July 26 2005,00:59)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 26 2005,00:12) Hi, Where is “incarnation” in the bible? Zech 13.4f “Also it will come about in that day that THE PROPHETS will each be ashamed of his vision when he prophesies, and they will not put on a hairy robe in order to deceive but he will say 'I am not a prophet; I am a tiller of the ground, for a man sold me as a slave in my youth' And one will say to him 'What are those wounds between your arms?' Then he will say 'Those are which I was wounded in the house of my friends” So these lies and deceptions relate to the Son of God, The Truth , in your view? in flesh =incarnate http://machaut.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/WEBSTER.page.sh?PAGE=219 Carnate <XPAGE=219Car"nate (?), a. [L. carnatus fleshy.] Invested with, or embodied in, flesh. Only the returned LORD Jesus Christ is the One who will be asked “what are these wounds in thine hands”, and he will reply, “those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends”. False prophets shall be put to shame, in that day.

Hi,
So the Son of God became incarnate when he partook of flesh to be like to us. So he never really was one of us then?Then how can we follow him?

Do you say we are incarnate too or is our body a part of who we are as scripture says
“body, soul and spirit”??

[NickHassan]

Quote (Guest @ July 26 2005,00:59)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 26 2005,00:12) Hi, Where is “incarnation” in the bible? Zech 13.4f “Also it will come about in that day that THE PROPHETS will each be ashamed of his vision when he prophesies, and they will not put on a hairy robe in order to deceive but he will say 'I am not a prophet; I am a tiller of the ground, for a man sold me as a slave in my youth' And one will say to him 'What are those wounds between your arms?' Then he will say 'Those are which I was wounded in the house of my friends” So these lies and deceptions relate to the Son of God, The Truth , in your view? in flesh =incarnate http://machaut.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/WEBSTER.page.sh?PAGE=219 Carnate <XPAGE=219Car"nate (?), a. [L. carnatus fleshy.] Invested with, or embodied in, flesh. Only the returned LORD Jesus Christ is the One who will be asked “what are these wounds in thine hands”, and he will reply, “those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends”. False prophets shall be put to shame, in that day.

Hi I,
Yes I knew it would be in Websters but the bible?

[Anonymous]

Quote (Guest @ July 26 2005,01:00)

Quote (Guest @ July 26 2005,00:59) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 26 2005,00:12) Hi, Where is “incarnation” in the bible? Zech 13.4f “Also it will come about in that day that THE PROPHETS will each be ashamed of his vision when he prophesies, and they will not put on a hairy robe in order to deceive but he will say 'I am not a prophet; I am a tiller of the ground, for a man sold me as a slave in my youth' And one will say to him 'What are those wounds between your arms?' Then he will say 'Those are which I was wounded in the house of my friends” So these lies and deceptions relate to the Son of God, The Truth , in your view? in flesh =incarnate http://machaut.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/WEBSTER.page.sh?PAGE=219 Carnate <XPAGE=219Car"nate (?), a. [L. carnatus fleshy.] Invested with, or embodied in, flesh. Only the returned LORD Jesus Christ is the One who will be asked “what are these wounds in thine hands”, and he will reply, “those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends”. False prophets shall be put to shame, in that day. Carnate <XPAGE=219Car"nate (?), a. [L. carnatus fleshy.] Invested with, or embodied in, flesh.

For some reason, the definition of carnate is not posting. Maybe it is copyrighted, from the Webster dictionary page?

carnate (?), a. [L. carnatus fleshy.] Invested with, or embodied in, flesh

Psa 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

When the YHWH of hosts in human flesh, who is risen and glorified with the Presence of YHWH’S glory, returns as Son of Man, the Firstborn of all the earth, then Israel will have the fountain opened, and the unclean spirit and the false prophet will pass out of the land.

In Zechariah 12:10 the house of David has the spirit of grace and supplications poured out upon them from on high, and they look upon ‘Me” YHWH of hosts, the second Person of the ONE (echad) YHWH, in human ‘carnate (flesh)

Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.

In Zechariah 13: 2-5 the cleansing of the land in that day is shown. The unclean spirit and the false prophet will pass out of the land, and no one will claim to be a prophet.

Zec 13:6 And [one] shall say unto him, What [are] these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, [Those] with which I was wounded [in] the house of my friends.

Zec 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man [that is] my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

13:7, is YHWH of hosts speaking of His smiting, -and He says He, the One smitten, is His fellow, His equal , the One who was pierced in hands, feet, and side.

Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.

Zec 12:11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

Zec 12:12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;

Zec 12:13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;

Zec 12:14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

Zec 13:1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

…the land is cleansed, through verses 2-5…

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

When He does this, the YHWH of hosts will cut off the names of the idols and cause the prophets and unclean spirit to pass out of the land.

Zec 13:2 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, [that] I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.
Zec 13:3 And it shall come to pass, [that] when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the LORD: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.

Zec 13:4 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive:
Zec 13:5 But he shall say, I [am] no prophet, I [am] an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.
““““““`

Zec 13:6 And [one] shall say unto him, What [are] these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, [Those] with which I was wounded [in] the house of my friends.

Zec 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man [that is] my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

Psa 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Isa 53:5 But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Guest @ July 23 2005,07:15)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 23 2005,01:30) Hi, God is in heaven. Can a man fully contain all there is of God? Are you denying that all the fullness of the Godhead dwelt in Him, bodily? If Jesus Christ was of the dust of this creation, this cursed creation, then His body would have corrupted in the three nights and three days that it lay in the tomb; but in fact, because His body was not of this dust that is cursed, His body saw no corruption in those three full days. If His body was of the dust that is cursed, then His blood would not have been the acceptable sacrifice and the first death would not have ended when He tasted it for every man while the Spirit of the Father departed from Him while He hung on the cross. His finished work of salvation was completed when He tasted our spiritual separation from the  Presence of His glory, and our humiliation of shame at the loss of that glory that glorified Adam when he was created and crowned with the glory. Our humiliation, our tapeinosis, the shame of our nakedness, our death of spirit, was tasted by Him on the cross for us, and when He finished His work, He gave up the ghost, and departed from His New Man perfect body, that had no defilement of the curse in it, to descend to hell to take from it those who were waiting there for the Day of Atonement, which set them free from the separation from His glory. The split veil in the temple showed the perfect blameless blood that was sprinkled upon His body, the True Mercy Seat, was accepted by the Presence of glory behind the veil, and the first death was ended right there, for all who will call upon His name for salveation. When He rose from the dead, He took up the same body that He came to inhabit in the womb of the virgin, and He is the everliving Father of the New Man race, for all who are adopted from Adam's race are His sons, male and female, and He ever lives as Firstborn of the race that inherits this earth. -And He will take to Him His great power and reign, after the thousand year reign, he'll remake it, and the heavens, Himself, by the fire melting the elements and reforming them. Act 8:33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.

Hi,
When Jesus died the temple veil was torn asunder.Matt 27.51
Hebrews 10 19
” Since therefore, brethren, we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which he inaugurated for us through the veil, that is his flesh”

His flesh was not cursed because the flesh of Adam was not cursed but “very good”

[Anonymous]

Quote (Guest @ July 26 2005,03:02)

Quote (Guest @ July 26 2005,01:00) Quote (Guest @ July 26 2005,00:59) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 26 2005,00:12) Hi, Where is “incarnation” in the bible? Zech 13.4f “Also it will come about in that day that THE PROPHETS will each be ashamed of his vision when he prophesies, and they will not put on a hairy robe in order to deceive but he will say 'I am not a prophet; I am a tiller of the ground, for a man sold me as a slave in my youth' And one will say to him 'What are those wounds between your arms?' Then he will say 'Those are which I was wounded in the house of my friends” So these lies and deceptions relate to the Son of God, The Truth , in your view? in flesh =incarnate http://machaut.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/WEBSTER.page.sh?PAGE=219 Carnate <XPAGE=219Car"nate (?), a. [L. carnatus fleshy.] Invested with, or embodied in, flesh. Only the returned LORD Jesus Christ is the One who will be asked “what are these wounds in thine hands”, and he will reply, “those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends”. False prophets shall be put to shame, in that day. Carnate <XPAGE=219Car"nate (?), a. [L. carnatus fleshy.] Invested with, or embodied in, flesh. For some reason, the definition of carnate is not posting. Maybe it is copyrighted, from the Webster dictionary page? carnate (?), a. [L. carnatus fleshy.] Invested with, or embodied in, flesh Psa 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. When the YHWH of hosts in human flesh, who is risen and glorified with the Presence of YHWH’S glory, returns as Son of Man, the Firstborn of all the earth, then Israel will have the fountain opened, and the unclean spirit and the false prophet will pass out of the land. In Zechariah 12:10 the house of David has the spirit of grace and supplications poured out upon them from on high, and they look upon ‘Me” YHWH of hosts, the second Person of the ONE (echad) YHWH, in human ‘carnate (flesh) Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn. In Zechariah 13: 2-5 the cleansing of the land in that day is shown. The unclean spirit and the false prophet will pass out of the land, and no one will claim to be a prophet. Zec 13:6 And [one] shall say unto him, What [are] these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, [Those] with which I was wounded [in] the house of my friends. Zec 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man [that is] my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones. 13:7, is YHWH of hosts speaking of His smiting, -and He says He, the One smitten, is His fellow, His equal , the One who was pierced in hands, feet, and side. Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn. Zec 12:11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. Zec 12:12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; Zec 12:13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart; Zec 12:14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart. Zec 13:1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness. …the land is cleansed, through verses 2-5… Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. When He does this, the YHWH of hosts will cut off the names of the idols and cause the prophets and unclean spirit to pass out of the land. Zec 13:2 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, [that] I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land. Zec 13:3 And it shall come to pass, [that] when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the LORD: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth. Zec 13:4 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive: Zec 13:5 But he shall say, I [am] no prophet, I [am] an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth. ““““““` Zec 13:6 And [one] shall say unto him, What [are] these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, [Those] with which I was wounded [in] the house of my friends. Zec 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man [that is] my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones. Psa 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. Isa 53:5 But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

In English, 'incarnation', is the coming in carnate, of YHWH of hosts, the second Person of the YHWH (who is ONE),from heaven, to the body of human flesh prepared in the womb of the virgin.
He 'is come', God with us, as a fully human being in our likeness but without sin or corruption in His New Man (the Israel-kind), human body.

Have you a prejudice against the incarnation, the coming in human flesh, of YHWH of hosts, Who is made the Life giving Spirit in the human flesh as Adam was made a living soul in the human flesh?

[vicalcabasa]

You’re beliefs are well crafted and very elaborate. I give that to you. But all of this is still founded in your view that The Father is equal to the Son and equal to the Spirit. Three beings in one Godhead.

Let me enumerate some popular passages…

1.  “ I was brought forth …” The wisdom of God speaking in prov 8
2.   I came from the Father
3.   The Father has sent me
4.   The Father is greater than I
5.   God and Father above all
6.   Christ being subjected to God
7.   Christ sitting in the right hand of God.
8.   The Spirit going forth from the Father
9.   The Father created all things thru Him
10.  HE was at the bosom of the Father

These were the WORDS the BIBLE used to describe Jesus with relation to the Father?

Do the verses above convey equality?  Do we understand Jesus the way the writers of the bible understood them? Honestly not. And yet the bible chose to use those words. (The verses seem more likely to convey that the spirit and the word came out from God, NOT as if the three were standing side by side as the trinity would convey)

2 Tim 2:2
2 And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable men who will also be qualified to teach others NIV

What’s wrong if we teach these exactly as they were written?

Why teach a “version” of the message of the bible by teaching with words like co-equal, 1st person, 2nd person, 3rd person, and trinity? The Bible never used these words. It is coined by men. Therefore its human teachings, not the bible’s.

1 John 1:3-4
We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4. NIV

Jesus said that he came that we may know the Father, The One True God and that we may understand Him.

Now you have a doctrine that say God is One in three beings. But they are not really three but one. You see how difficult and complicated the doctrine has sounded to be?

So a little yeast can corrupt the whole dough.

Let’s all keep searching for the truth continually learning to properly divide the word of God.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Guest @ July 26 2005,03:09)

Quote (Guest @ July 26 2005,03:02) Quote (Guest @ July 26 2005,01:00) Quote (Guest @ July 26 2005,00:59) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 26 2005,00:12) Hi, Where is “incarnation” in the bible? Zech 13.4f “Also it will come about in that day that THE PROPHETS will each be ashamed of his vision when he prophesies, and they will not put on a hairy robe in order to deceive but he will say 'I am not a prophet; I am a tiller of the ground, for a man sold me as a slave in my youth' And one will say to him 'What are those wounds between your arms?' Then he will say 'Those are which I was wounded in the house of my friends” So these lies and deceptions relate to the Son of God, The Truth , in your view? in flesh =incarnate http://machaut.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/WEBSTER.page.sh?PAGE=219 Carnate <XPAGE=219Car"nate (?), a. [L. carnatus fleshy.] Invested with, or embodied in, flesh. Only the returned LORD Jesus Christ is the One who will be asked “what are these wounds in thine hands”, and he will reply, “those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends”. False prophets shall be put to shame, in that day. Carnate <XPAGE=219Car"nate (?), a. [L. carnatus fleshy.] Invested with, or embodied in, flesh. For some reason, the definition of carnate is not posting. Maybe it is copyrighted, from the Webster dictionary page? carnate (?), a. [L. carnatus fleshy.] Invested with, or embodied in, flesh Psa 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. When the YHWH of hosts in human flesh, who is risen and glorified with the Presence of YHWH’S glory, returns as Son of Man, the Firstborn of all the earth, then Israel will have the fountain opened, and the unclean spirit and the false prophet will pass out of the land. In Zechariah 12:10 the house of David has the spirit of grace and supplications poured out upon them from on high, and they look upon ‘Me” YHWH of hosts, the second Person of the ONE (echad) YHWH, in human ‘carnate (flesh) Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn. In Zechariah 13: 2-5 the cleansing of the land in that day is shown. The unclean spirit and the false prophet will pass out of the land, and no one will claim to be a prophet. Zec 13:6 And [one] shall say unto him, What [are] these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, [Those] with which I was wounded [in] the house of my friends. Zec 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man [that is] my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones. 13:7, is YHWH of hosts speaking of His smiting, -and He says He, the One smitten, is His fellow, His equal , the One who was pierced in hands, feet, and side. Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn. Zec 12:11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. Zec 12:12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; Zec 12:13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart; Zec 12:14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart. Zec 13:1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness. …the land is cleansed, through verses 2-5… Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. When He does this, the YHWH of hosts will cut off the names of the idols and cause the prophets and unclean spirit to pass out of the land. Zec 13:2 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, [that] I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land. Zec 13:3 And it shall come to pass, [that] when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the LORD: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth. Zec 13:4 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive: Zec 13:5 But he shall say, I [am] no prophet, I [am] an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth. ““““““` Zec 13:6 And [one] shall say unto him, What [are] these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, [Those] with which I was wounded [in] the house of my friends. Zec 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man [that is] my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones. Psa 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. Isa 53:5 But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. In English, 'incarnation', is the coming in carnate, of YHWH of hosts, the second Person of the YHWH (who is ONE),from heaven, to the body of human flesh prepared in the womb of the virgin. He 'is come', God with us, as a fully human being in our likeness but without sin or corruption in His New Man (the Israel-kind),  human body. Have you a prejudice against the incarnation, the coming in human flesh, of YHWH of hosts, Who is made the Life giving Spirit in the human flesh as Adam was made a living soul in the human flesh?

Hi,
It is one of the words your tradition, and not the bible, has taught you. Your faith and teaching is not apparently based on the bible but on these humanly derived doctrines.

Why not go back just to the pure source? By not doing so you raise these men and their speculations to be equal to the Word of God just as the Pharisees did with their doctrines.

We could then truly dialogue.

We are constantly accused of error and worse because we use only the bible as source, but those who do so then spout their traditional manmade doctrines to “prove”their case.

We are not always right but we do know where truth is to be found-in the bible.

At the moment every post from you is seasoned with truth from the Word but apparently written in defense of man's teaching, not God's.

Of course to dialogue you could not use the unshared human language of tradition such as;
trinity
persons in God
incarnation etc

But you perhaps might realise that what Jesus said was true.

He is the Son of God.

[Anonymous]

Quote (vicalcabasa @ July 26 2005,03:12)

You’re beliefs are well crafted and very elaborate. I give that to you. But all of this is still founded in your view that The Father is equal to the Son and equal to the Spirit. Three beings in one Godhead. Let me enumerate some popular passages… 1. “ I was brought forth …” The wisdom of God speaking in prov 8 2. I came from the Father 3. The Father has sent me 4. The Father is greater than I 5. God and Father above all 6. Christ being subjected to God 7. Christ sitting in the right hand of God. 8. The Spirit going forth from the Father 9. The Father created all things thru Him 10. HE was at the bosom of the Father These were the WORDS the BIBLE used to describe Jesus with relation to the Father? Do the verses above convey equality? Do we understand Jesus the way the writers of the bible understood them? Honestly not. And yet the bible chose to use those words. (The verses seem more likely to convey that the spirit and the word came out from God, NOT as if the three were standing side by side as the trinity would convey) 2 Tim 2:2 2 And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable men who will also be qualified to teach others NIV What’s wrong if we teach these exactly as they were written? Why teach a “version” of the message of the bible by teaching with words like co-equal, 1st person, 2nd person, 3rd person, and trinity? The Bible never used these words. It is coined by men. Therefore its human teachings, not the bible’s. 1 John 1:3-4 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4. NIV Jesus said that he came that we may know the Father, The One True God and that we may understand Him. Now you have a doctrine that say God is One in three beings. But they are not really three but one. You see how difficult and complicated the doctrine has sounded to be? So a little yeast can corrupt the whole dough. Let’s all keep searching for the truth continually learning to properly divide the word of God.

Hello vicalcabasa,
We haven't begun to exhaust the depth of scripture on the second Person of YHWH of hosts who 'is come' in flesh, and who came to Ransom his brother's seed and the kingdom given them and to rule it forever as the “Son of Man”.

The blessing of the Firstborn is His, as a human, over this earth, and the blessing is His forever as a human, and he will rule as Priest King over this earth, as the everlasting father of the adopted (those born again in His New Man image) seed of Adam.

On Proverbs 8, Solomon writes of 'lady wisdom' as being compared to 'woman' folly; and Jesus was never brought forth: His goings forth have been of old,from eternity, and YHWH of hosts, the First Person of the YHWH, calls Him His fellow, a male, not a woman female.

And really, God doesn't marry, and if He's been co-habiting, with this woman, wisdom, whom He told us is His fellow, whose goings forth have been from everlasting, from eternity, then God has not spoken the truth about who he's 'keeping company' with, calling a 'she' His 'fellow' a 'He'' an equal, and that isn't establishing a good reputation, now, is it

He rode the heavens by His name JAH!, not as lady wisdom, who isn't a 'real' woman, nor is woman folly a 'rea' woman.

His spirit of wisdom and understanding has been put 'within' man, for all man's individual gifts, as He desired, and that wisdom isn't a woman 'in' us.

THe Son of Man is a separate YHWH of hosts Person, from the Father. Always has been, always is, always will be.

But the Second YHWH Person humbled Himself to come into the body prepared for Him (the coming incarnate), to bring mankind back to the Father for His glory to inhabit, and He will always be in that human glorified body.

He didn't quit being equal with, and the fellow of, Elohim, and the Elohim has 'no' equal or likeness among the sons of Elohim.
Not any, His word declares.

He is YHWH of hosts, who 'is' (present tense), the equal, as YHWH of hosts has said, Himself, in Zechariah 13:7 “Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man [that is] my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts:”

He came from the Father.
He was dwelling with the Father as His fellow and is still His equal, as YHWH of hosts, but willingly humbled Himself to take upon Himself the form of a servant, and is in that form, in human flesh, as the Firstborn over all the earth, who replaces the Adam and is the Kinsman who redeems the brother's kingdom and seed.

A typology of His position as Son of Man, YHWH of hosts in human flesh, is typed for us in Genesis, in Joseph's being sold into slavery by His brothers, as dead, raised from prison to the second position in the land to keep the brothers alive -and keep alive all who came to buy sustenance
Pharaoh was over Him only in the throne, and put all in His hands, and He gave His brethren sustenence without taking their money.

But the Word of God shows us that before He humbled Himself, He was always with God, equal with God, and was God, and that God has no equal.. no God formed before Him, no God with Him, and no God formed after Him.
John tells us very plainly, in John 12:37-41, that he was YHWH of hosts, seen by Isaiah in chapter 6.

No one can deny that John said that Jesus Christ was seen by Isaiah as YHWH of hosts, in Isaiah 6.

Jacob wrestled with Him as the Messenger of YHWH, in one of His goings forth, and the word declares that that messenger that wrestled with Jacob and gave Him His own New Man name, as Jacob's name, as a sign of the adoption, was YHWH of hosts, even I AM THAT I AM.

The Father did not wrestle with Jacob.

Hsa 12:2 The LORD hath also a controversy with Judah, and will punish Jacob according to his ways; according to his doings will he recompense him.

Hsa 12:3 He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God:

Hsa 12:4 Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed: he wept, and made supplication unto him: he found him [in] Bethel, and there he spake with us;

Hsa 12:5 Even the LORD God of hosts; the LORD [is] his memorial.

He is a servant, Israel, the 'New Man' and the only begotten of the Father as a human (Isaac was the only begotten of Abraham, said YHWH).

He is subject to the Father, willingly, and made Himself of no reputation, in His servant position, which is in the human flesh, so that He could be our Redeemer and bring us back to the glory that we were planned to have indwelling from the beginning as sons of God.

As a human being, He is exalted above every name that is named in heaven and in earth.
He already was exalted, as YHWH of hosts, but the Adam was lost, so He came down from His throne to bring us back to Himself, to the YHWH, the Elohim of Israel, the ONE YHWH (Israel's Elohim since the Exodus who will be the Elohim of the whole earth as a human ruling Adam's redeemed kingdom forever) and in His human flsh body He remains, and is sitting on His throne, the throne of the Father, who shares His glory with no one, but Israel 'is' His glory.

The Father, Word, and The Holy Spirit were all
three involved in the creation. They are the 'Us' who made man in 'our' image, after 'our' likeness, and so 'He' made him in His 'own' image and likeness, in the image of Elohim, created He …them.

The Bible says God [the Father] is unapproachable light, Whom no man has seen or can see.
It is not possible to see a form for the Father, and the Holy Spirit who has never departed from creation when the glory did, has been seen in a form, but does not dwell in a form, as the second Person always has, from the beginning; For the Father is said to be consuming fire, unapproachable light, and Spirit who cannot be contained in heaven, even the heaven of heavens.

YHWH of hosts, the second Person has come in the similitude of the ONE, from the beginning, and walked in the Garden and fellowshipped in His Person with the first Adam, for whom He made tunics of skins to cover their shame (the shame of nakedness is the absence of the glory indwelling and is the covering of living Spirit that we who are born again shall be clothed with, in the Resurrection and regeneration).
He is seen throughout the word and will be seen forever, as the face of the One true God, the One face seen forever.

He has one face, the face of the Lamb, sitting on the throne in the regenerated heaven and earth and He is the only face seen of God forever.

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, [was there] the tree of life, which bare twelve [manner of] fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations.

Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

“The throne of God and the Lamb”, We shall serve Him, -His face is ONE and His name ONE -forever.

[Anonymous]

Quote ( @ –)

Quote (vicalcabasa @ July 26 2005,03:12) You’re beliefs are well crafted and very elaborate. I give that to you. But all of this is still founded in your view that The Father is equal to the Son and equal to the Spirit. Three beings in one Godhead. Let me enumerate some popular passages… 1. “ I was brought forth …” The wisdom of God speaking in prov 8 2. I came from the Father 3. The Father has sent me 4. The Father is greater than I 5. God and Father above all 6. Christ being subjected to God 7. Christ sitting in the right hand of God. 8. The Spirit going forth from the Father 9. The Father created all things thru Him 10. HE was at the bosom of the Father These were the WORDS the BIBLE used to describe Jesus with relation to the Father? Do the verses above convey equality? Do we understand Jesus the way the writers of the bible understood them? Honestly not. And yet the bible chose to use those words. (The verses seem more likely to convey that the spirit and the word came out from God, NOT as if the three were standing side by side as the trinity would convey) 2 Tim 2:2 2 And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable men who will also be qualified to teach others NIV What’s wrong if we teach these exactly as they were written? Why teach a “version” of the message of the bible by teaching with words like co-equal, 1st person, 2nd person, 3rd person, and trinity? The Bible never used these words. It is coined by men. Therefore its human teachings, not the bible’s. 1 John 1:3-4 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4. NIV Jesus said that he came that we may know the Father, The One True God and that we may understand Him. Now you have a doctrine that say God is One in three beings. But they are not really three but one. You see how difficult and complicated the doctrine has sounded to be? So a little yeast can corrupt the whole dough. Let’s all keep searching for the truth continually learning to properly divide the word of God. Hello vicalcabasa, We haven't begun to exhaust the depth of scripture on the second Person of YHWH of hosts who 'is come' in flesh, and who came to Ransom his brother's seed and the kingdom given them and to rule it forever as the “Son of Man”. The blessing of the Firstborn is His, as a human, over this earth, and the blessing is His forever as a human, and he will rule as Priest King over this earth, as the everlasting father of the adopted (those born again in His New Man image) seed of Adam. On Proverbs 8, Solomon writes of 'lady wisdom' as being compared to 'woman' folly; and Jesus was never brought forth: His goings forth have been of old,from eternity, and YHWH of hosts, the First Person of the YHWH, calls Him His fellow, a male, not a woman female. And really, God doesn't marry, and if He's been co-habiting, with this woman, wisdom, whom He told us is His fellow, whose goings forth have been from everlasting, from eternity, then God has not spoken the truth about who he's 'keeping company' with, calling a 'she' His 'fellow' a 'He'' an equal, and that isn't establishing a good reputation, now, is it He rode the heavens by His name JAH!, not as lady wisdom, who isn't a 'real' woman, nor is woman folly a 'rea' woman. His spirit of wisdom and understanding has been put 'within' man, for all man's individual gifts, as He desired, and that wisdom isn't a woman 'in' us. THe Son of Man is a separate YHWH of hosts Person, from the Father. Always has been, always is, always will be. But the Second YHWH Person humbled Himself to come into the body prepared for Him (the coming incarnate), to bring mankind back to the Father for His glory to inhabit, and He will always be in that human glorified body. He didn't quit being equal with, and the fellow of, Elohim, and the Elohim has 'no' equal or likeness among the sons of Elohim. Not any, His word declares. He is YHWH of hosts, who 'is' (present tense), the equal, as YHWH of hosts has said, Himself, in Zechariah 13:7 “Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man [that is] my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts:” He came from the Father. He was dwelling with the Father as His fellow and is still His equal, as YHWH of hosts, but willingly humbled Himself to take upon Himself the form of a servant, and is in that form, in human flesh, as the Firstborn over all the earth, who replaces the Adam and is the Kinsman who redeems the brother's kingdom and seed. A typology of His position as Son of Man, YHWH of hosts in human flesh, is typed for us in Genesis, in Joseph's being sold into slavery by His brothers, as dead, raised from prison to the second position in the land to keep the brothers alive -and keep alive all who came to buy sustenance Pharaoh was over Him only in the throne, and put all in His hands, and He gave His brethren sustenence without taking their money. But the Word of God shows us that before He humbled Himself, He was always with God, equal with God, and was God, and that God has no equal.. no God formed before Him, no God with Him, and no God formed after Him. John tells us very plainly, in John 12:37-41, that he was YHWH of hosts, seen by Isaiah in chapter 6. No one can deny that John said that Jesus Christ was seen by Isaiah as YHWH of hosts, in Isaiah 6. Jacob wrestled with Him as the Messenger of YHWH, in one of His goings forth, and the word declares that that messenger that wrestled with Jacob and gave Him His own New Man name, as Jacob's name, as a sign of the adoption, was YHWH of hosts, even I AM THAT I AM. The Father did not wrestle with Jacob. Hsa 12:2 The LORD hath also a controversy with Judah, and will punish Jacob according to his ways; according to his doings will he recompense him. Hsa 12:3 He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God: Hsa 12:4 Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed: he wept, and made supplication unto him: he found him [in] Bethel, and there he spake with us; Hsa 12:5 Even the LORD God of hosts; the LORD [is] his memorial. He is a servant, Israel, the 'New Man' and the only begotten of the Father as a human (Isaac was the only begotten of Abraham, said YHWH). He is subject to the Father, willingly, and made Himself of no reputation, in His servant position, which is in the human flesh, so that He could be our Redeemer and bring us back to the glory that we were planned to have indwelling from the beginning as sons of God. As a human being, He is exalted above every name that is named in heaven and in earth. He already was exalted, as YHWH of hosts, but the Adam was lost, so He came down from His throne to bring us back to Himself, to the YHWH, the Elohim of Israel, the ONE YHWH (Israel's Elohim since the Exodus who will be the Elohim of the whole earth as a human ruling Adam's redeemed kingdom forever) and

YIPES!-
I just noticed that you called God three beings. No place in Scripture is the YHWH three beings.
One being, three revealed Persons.

Adam is one being, multiplied billions and billions of persons.
The word 'one' is echad, and is used for YHWH the Elohim of Israel, ONE YHWH, in Deuteronomy 6, and is used of Adam, in Malachi 2;15 who is also one being, billions and billions of persons.

Adam is one, echad.
YHWH the Elohim (plural, the 'US', who is 'HE' of Genesis 1:26-28) is ONE, ECHAD.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Guest @ July 26 2005,04:47)

Quote (vicalcabasa @ July 26 2005,03:12) You’re beliefs are well crafted and very elaborate. I give that to you. But all of this is still founded in your view that The Father is equal to the Son and equal to the Spirit. Three beings in one Godhead. Let me enumerate some popular passages… 1.  “ I was brought forth …” The wisdom of God speaking in prov 8 2.   I came from the Father 3.   The Father has sent me 4.   The Father is greater than I 5.   God and Father above all 6.   Christ being subjected to God 7.   Christ sitting in the right hand of God. 8.   The Spirit going forth from the Father 9.   The Father created all things thru Him 10.  HE was at the bosom of the Father These were the WORDS the BIBLE used to describe Jesus with relation to the Father? Do the verses above convey equality?  Do we understand Jesus the way the writers of the bible understood them? Honestly not. And yet the bible chose to use those words. (The verses seem more likely to convey that the spirit and the word came out from God, NOT as if the three were standing side by side as the trinity would convey) 2 Tim 2:2 2 And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable men who will also be qualified to teach others NIV What’s wrong if we teach these exactly as they were written? Why teach a “version” of the message of the bible by teaching with words like co-equal, 1st person, 2nd person, 3rd person, and trinity? The Bible never used these words. It is coined by men. Therefore its human teachings, not the bible’s. 1 John 1:3-4 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4. NIV Jesus said that he came that we may know the Father, The One True God and that we may understand Him. Now you have a doctrine that say God is One in three beings. But they are not really three but one. You see how difficult and complicated the doctrine has sounded to be? So a little yeast can corrupt the whole dough. Let’s all keep searching for the truth continually learning to properly divide the word of God. Hello vicalcabasa, We haven't begun to exhaust the depth of scripture on the second  Person of YHWH of hosts who 'is come' in flesh, and who came to Ransom his brother's seed and the kingdom given them and to rule it forever as the “Son of Man”. The blessing of the Firstborn is His, as a human, over this earth, and the blessing is His forever as a human, and he will rule as Priest King over this earth, as the everlasting father of the adopted (those born again in His New Man image) seed of Adam. On Proverbs 8, Solomon writes of 'lady wisdom' as being compared to 'woman' folly; and Jesus was never brought forth: His goings forth have been of old,from eternity, and YHWH of hosts, the First Person of the YHWH, calls Him His fellow, a male, not a woman female. And really, God doesn't marry, and if He's been co-habiting, with this woman, wisdom, whom He told us is His fellow, whose goings forth have been from everlasting, from eternity, then God has not spoken the truth about who he's 'keeping company' with, calling a 'she' His 'fellow' a 'He'' an equal, and that  isn't establishing a good reputation, now, is it He rode the heavens by His name JAH!, not as lady wisdom, who isn't a 'real' woman, nor is woman folly a 'rea' woman. His spirit of wisdom and understanding  has been put 'within' man, for all man's individual gifts, as He desired, and that wisdom isn't a woman 'in' us. THe Son of Man is a separate YHWH of hosts Person, from the Father. Always has been, always is, always will be. But the Second YHWH Person humbled Himself to come into the body prepared for Him (the coming incarnate), to bring mankind back to the Father for His glory to inhabit, and He will always be in that human glorified body. He didn't quit being equal with, and the fellow of, Elohim, and the Elohim has 'no' equal or likeness among the sons of Elohim. Not any, His word declares. He is YHWH of hosts, who 'is' (present tense), the equal, as YHWH of hosts has said, Himself, in Zechariah 13:7 “Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man [that is] my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts:” He came from the Father. He was dwelling with the Father as His fellow and is still His equal, as YHWH of hosts, but willingly humbled Himself to take upon Himself the form of a servant, and is in that form, in human flesh, as the Firstborn over all the earth, who replaces the Adam and is the Kinsman who redeems the brother's kingdom and seed. A typology of His position as Son of Man, YHWH of hosts in human flesh, is typed for us in Genesis, in Joseph's being sold into slavery by His brothers, as dead, raised from prison to the second position in the land to keep the brothers alive -and keep alive all who came to buy sustenance Pharaoh was over Him only in the throne, and put all in His hands, and He gave His brethren sustenence without taking their money. But the Word of God shows us that before He humbled Himself, He was always with God, equal with God, and was God, and that God has no equal.. no God formed before Him, no God with Him, and no God formed after Him. John tells us very plainly, in John 12:37-41,  that he was YHWH of hosts, seen by Isaiah in chapter 6. No one can deny that John said that Jesus Christ was seen by Isaiah as YHWH of hosts, in Isaiah 6. Jacob wrestled with Him as the Messenger of YHWH, in one of His  goings forth, and the word declares that that messenger that wrestled with Jacob and gave Him His own New Man name, as Jacob's name, as a sign of the adoption, was YHWH of hosts, even I AM THAT I AM. The Father did not wrestle with Jacob.   Hsa 12:2 The LORD hath also a controversy with Judah, and will punish Jacob according to his ways; according to his doings will he recompense him.   Hsa 12:3 He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God:   Hsa 12:4 Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed: he wept, and made supplication unto him: he found him [in] Bethel, and there he spake with us;   Hsa 12:5 Even the LORD God of hosts; the LORD [is] his memorial.   He is a servant, Israel, the 'New Man' and the only begotten of the Father as a human (Isaac was the only begotten of Abraham, said YHWH). He is subject to the Father, willingly, and made  Himself of no reputation, in His servant position, which is in the human flesh, so that He could be our Redeemer and bring us back to the glory  that we were planned to have indwelling from the beginning as sons of God. As a human being, He is exalted above every name that is named in heaven and in earth. He already was exalted, as YHWH of hosts, but the Adam was lost, so He came down from His throne to bring us back to Himself, to the YHWH, the Elohim of Israel, the ONE YHWH (Israel's Elohim since the Exodus who will be the Elohim of the whole earth as a human ruling Adam's redeemed kingdom forever) and in Hi s human flsh body He remains, and is sitting on His throne, the throne of the Father, who shares His glory with no one, but Israel 'is' His glory. The Father, Word, and  The Holy Spirit were all three involved in the creation. They are the 'Us' who made man in 'our' image, after 'our' likeness, and so 'He'  made him in His 'own' image and likeness, in the image of Elohim, created He …them. The Bible says God [the Father] is unapproachable light, Whom no man has seen or can see. It is not possible to see a form for the Father, and the Holy Spirit who has never departed from creation when the glory did, has been seen in a form, but does not dwell in a form, as the second Person always has, from the beginning; For the Father  is said to be consuming fire, unapproachable light, and Spirit who cannot be contained in heaven, even the heaven of heavens. YHWH of hosts, the second Person has come in the similitude of the ONE, from the beginning, and  walked in the Garden and fellowshipped in His Person with the first Adam, for whom He made tunics of skins to cover their shame (the shame of nakedness is the absence of the glory indwelling and is the covering of living Spirit  that we who are born again shall be clothed with, in the Resurrection and regeneration). He is seen throughout the word and will be seen forever, as the face of the One true God, the One face seen forever. He has one face, the face of the Lamb, sitting on the throne in the regenerated heaven and earth and He is the only face seen of God forever. Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.   Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, [was there] the tree of life, which bare twelve [manner of] fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations.   Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: “The throne of God and the Lamb”, We shall serve Him, -His face is ONE and His name ONE -forever.

Hi I,
So the relationship between Pharaoh and Joseph mirrors that between the Father and Son? I fully agree with that, but you seem to hesitate.

Pharaoh was greater than Joseph but you analogy does not go that far with God [the Father]and Christ? [Equality claimed]

Pharaoh preceded Joseph in authority but no analogy there either? [Equality claimed]

If you stayed with the analogy you would find scripture would teach you more.

[Anonymous]

No Nick,
The type is not the substance.

THe LOGOS, Second Person of YHWH, the Elohim of Israel, the ONE YHWH, willingly humbled Himself, stepped down from His throne in His created heaven to take upon Himself the fully human flesh, to become 'YHWH of hosts incarnate' and is 'Emmanuel' with us,
The God of Israel, has become the Son incarnated, the 'YESHUA' of Israel.

You deny that He, YESHUA the Messiah, 'is come' present tense, in flesh -.

[epistemaniac]

Quote (vicalcabasa @ July 26 2005,03:12)

You’re beliefs are well crafted and very elaborate. I give that to you. But all of this is still founded in your view that The Father is equal to the Son and equal to the Spirit. Three beings in one Godhead. Let me enumerate some popular passages… 1.  “ I was brought forth …” The wisdom of God speaking in prov 8 2.   I came from the Father 3.   The Father has sent me 4.   The Father is greater than I 5.   God and Father above all 6.   Christ being subjected to God 7.   Christ sitting in the right hand of God. 8.   The Spirit going forth from the Father 9.   The Father created all things thru Him 10.  HE was at the bosom of the Father These were the WORDS the BIBLE used to describe Jesus with relation to the Father? Do the verses above convey equality?  Do we understand Jesus the way the writers of the bible understood them? Honestly not. And yet the bible chose to use those words. (The verses seem more likely to convey that the spirit and the word came out from God, NOT as if the three were standing side by side as the trinity would convey) 2 Tim 2:2 2 And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable men who will also be qualified to teach others NIV What’s wrong if we teach these exactly as they were written? Why teach a “version” of the message of the bible by teaching with words like co-equal, 1st person, 2nd person, 3rd person, and trinity? The Bible never used these words. It is coined by men. Therefore its human teachings, not the bible’s. 1 John 1:3-4 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4. NIV Jesus said that he came that we may know the Father, The One True God and that we may understand Him. Now you have a doctrine that say God is One in three beings. But they are not really three but one. You see how difficult and complicated the doctrine has sounded to be? So a little yeast can corrupt the whole dough. Let’s all keep searching for the truth continually learning to properly divide the word of God.

vic, a passage that speaks of the equality of the Son with the Father is (Phil 2:6 NASB) “who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,”

Jesus existed in the form of God…. pretty straightforward right? “Christ existed in the “form of God” (morphe, Gk., v. 6) which signifies the nature of God, His character, the very essence of His deity. “Did not consider it robbery to be equal with God” (v. 6) is an expression which means “did not think it necessary to grasp at deity.” No ambition to become God could plague Christ since He was in fact God! He, therefore, did not give up His deity, but He did, for a time, surrender His heavenly glory. The Lord Jesus as the possessor of divine essence takes the “form of a bondservant” (v. 7) (morphen doulou, Gk., lit. “the nature or essence of a slave”). He sets aside His divine glory, but not His divine nature, and takes upon Himself the true attributes of man. As Christ preexisted in the “form of God,” He then took upon Himself the “likeness of men.” His humanity is real; yet His being is still that of deity. The incarnation was not a subtraction of deity, but an addition of humanity. Christ sets aside the outward expression of His deity when expressing Himself as a bondservant. The purpose for this obedience and emptying is stated with clarity. Jesus humbled Himself to become obedient unto the death of the cross. Once again the preeminence of the atonement and consequent salvation is emphasized by the Scriptures.” (Believer's Study Bible)

Looking at your points, one by one though, just to see if they actually provide any documentation against the equality in nature between the Father and the Son, its easy to see that your points are all very easily refuted…..

1. “ I was brought forth …” The wisdom of God speaking in prov 8
2. I came from the Father
3. The Father has sent me
4. The Father is greater than I
5. God and Father above all
6. Christ being subjected to God
7. Christ sitting in the right hand of God.
8. The Spirit going forth from the Father
9. The Father created all things thru Him
10. HE was at the bosom of the Father

Every one of these points is refuted by the very next verses after the one I quoted above:
(Phil 2:7-8 NASB) “but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. {8} And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.”

Do you see that? Christ willingly submitted Himself to a position of humility, so every one of your points is answered by the fact that during the incarnation, the Son placed Himself in a place of humility. But this fact does nothing to His ontological status, all your allusions point to differences in economy, differences in roles, not to differences in essence. The Bible says (Col 2:9 NASB) “For in Him all the fulness of Deity dwells in bodily form,” See that? ALL…. ALL…. ALL.. the fullness of deity is in Christ… all that it means to be deity is in Him, He is what God is. The Bible says (Heb 1:8 NKJV) “But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.” See that? The Son is called “God”, can’t get much plainer than that.

blessings

[epistemaniac]

vic, I should add that learning to properly divide the word of truth does not mean dividing the Bible's concepts in such a way as to make them come into conflit with one another…. taking all the “Jesus is in willing submission to the Father” type of passages without also taking into account the passages that speak of equality is not what the biblical writers meant by “rightly dividing the word of truth”. That is, do not “divide” the Bible against itself, as I see you and so many unitarians and modalists do, pitting the Scriptures against one another, but rather (2 Tim 2:15 NASB) “Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, handling accurately the word of truth.” This is what you need to strive for.

blessings

[NickHassan]

Hi E,
“He did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped”

Now simple reading of that phrase suggests he is not currently equal wiith God. It suggests he has to grasp equality to have it.

Certainly the greek supports that idea as 'Hapazo” and it's related greek words means to “take by force”, to “steal” or “rob” or “pillage”-all words that suggest violence and taking what does not belong by right.

Do those phrases suit your view of the nature of Christ?

Is he not meek and humble of heart?

Is he not submissive and obedient?.

How anyone can read this verse and read it as the Christ having equality with God and deciding not to hold on to it beats me.

[Proclaimer]

To epistemaniac,

Quote (epistemaniac @ July 27 2005,00:26)

Vic, a passage that speaks of the equality of the Son with the Father is (Phil 2:6 NASB) “who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,” Jesus existed in the form of God…. pretty straightforward right? “Christ existed in the “form of God” (morphe, Gk., v. 6) which signifies the nature of God, His character, the very essence of His deity. “Did not consider it robbery to be equal with God” (v. 6) is an expression which means “did not think it necessary to grasp at deity.”

The point is that even if he were equal to God as you are saying then that shows that he is not God. If you are equal to anything then it shows that you are not that thing you are equal too.

E.g., If you come first EQUAL in a race, does that mean that both racers were the same person?

If 1 bar of Gold is equal to $5000.00, then are they the same object? Of course not.

If Yeshua is equal to God, then is he God? Of course not. He is like him. The fact that he is equal to God means that he is not God himself.

Philippians 2:6
Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

The word “equal” in this verse is the Greek word “isos” which can mean

* similar in amount Or kind
* agree
* equal
* like

This verse is simply saying that Jesus has the nature of God and is like God. This is what the rest of the New Testament teaches including John 1:1. Jesus is god (adjective, not noun) by class, not God (noun) in identity . God begat a son in his likeness, the likeness of himself, (Image of God, firstborn). Then through his son he made creation and us.

Is it not better to read scripture as it is, rather than through trinity shaded glasses?

[vicalcabasa]

Quote (epistemaniac @ July 26 2005,05:26)

vic, a passage that speaks of the equality of the Son with the Father is (Phil 2:6 NASB)  “who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,” Jesus existed in the form of God…. pretty straightforward right? “Christ existed in the “form of God” (morphe, Gk., v. 6) which signifies the nature of God, His character, the very essence of His deity. “Did not consider it robbery to be equal with God” (v. 6) is an expression which means “did not think it necessary to grasp at deity.” No ambition to become God could plague Christ since He was in fact God! He, therefore, did not give up His deity, but He did, for a time, surrender His heavenly glory. The Lord Jesus as the possessor of divine essence takes the “form of a bondservant” (v. 7) (morphen doulou, Gk., lit. “the nature or essence of a slave”). He sets aside His divine glory, but not His divine nature, and takes upon Himself the true attributes of man. As Christ preexisted in the “form of God,” He then took upon Himself the “likeness of men.” His humanity is real; yet His being is still that of deity. The incarnation was not a subtraction of deity, but an addition of humanity. Christ sets aside the outward expression of His deity when expressing Himself as a bondservant. The purpose for this obedience and emptying is stated with clarity. Jesus humbled Himself to become obedient unto the death of the cross. Once again the preeminence of the atonement and consequent salvation is emphasized by the Scriptures.” (Believer's Study Bible) Looking at your points, one by one though, just to see if they actually provide any documentation against the equality in nature between the Father and the Son, its easy to see that your points are all very easily refuted….. 1.  “ I was brought forth …” The wisdom of God speaking in prov 8 2.   I came from the Father 3.   The Father has sent me 4.   The Father is greater than I 5.   God and Father above all 6.   Christ being subjected to God 7.   Christ sitting in the right hand of God. 8.   The Spirit going forth from the Father 9.   The Father created all things thru Him 10.  HE was at the bosom of the Father Every one of these points is refuted by the very next verses after the one I quoted above: (Phil 2:7-8 NASB)  “but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. {8} And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.” Do you see that? Christ willingly submitted Himself to a position of humility, so every one of your points is answered by the fact that during the incarnation, the Son placed Himself in a place of humility. But this fact does nothing to His ontological status, all your allusions point to differences in economy, differences in roles, not to differences in essence. The Bible says (Col 2:9 NASB)  “For in Him all the fulness of Deity dwells in bodily form,” See that? ALL…. ALL…. ALL.. the fullness of deity is in Christ… all that it means to be deity is in Him, He is what God is. The Bible says (Heb 1:8 NKJV)  “But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.” See that? The Son is called “God”, can’t get much plainer than that. blessings

I checked Phil 2:6 from a Trinitarian bible commentator. He said the passage means God and Jesus are equally divine. (wycliffe’s)

But okay given, JESUS Possesses Attributes Which Only God Has
HE has Names and titles of deity.
He received worship, and don’t mind if Thomas called him my God.
And God called him God (The LORD said to his Son, Thy throne O God…)

But on the same breath he was always quick to say that father is greater. He will always depict himself as subject to the father, his God.
And Jesus is not the Father whom he called the true God
So clearly by his own declaration Jesus is not the one true God but possess all the quality of being such.

HAVE you also wondered why throughout the Bible the main titles of JESUS from yesterday (pre-existent/OT) today (NT) and forever (REV) are

The Word of God
The Son of God
The Lamb of God

How come his main titles were always “OF GOD” and not God itself?
And the scriptures never plainly taught that Jesus is GOD himself or else there would be no discussion like this.

Is it because the Bible doesn’t want us to err that Christianity is polytheistic, in different form with Christian labels?

How do we reconcile these scriptures?

And this is my point, if I should make my own doctrine on Christology, this is the idea I will pursue.

JESUS is the ALTER EGO of the INVISIBLE, UNAPPROACHABLE, SPIRIT GOD over His creation.

To my mind this will solve a lot of problems why Jesus is God and not “the God” at the same time WITHOUT VIOLATING THE IMMUTABILITY OF ONE GOD.

But then again, if I would just simply accept the doctrine that the bible had already established for us,  I would just simply accept and believe its description, that…

JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD.

And if you believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God…

Let God be true and all men….opinion makers.

So if Jesus is called the Son of God, where did the title 2nd person of the trinity comes from?
Is the revelation of the Bible not enough that we should coin another title or description for him? Or are we adding to the already revealed Word of God?

[NickHassan]

Quote (Guest @ July 26 2005,05:09)

No Nick, The type is not the substance. THe LOGOS, Second Person of YHWH, the Elohim of Israel, the ONE YHWH, willingly humbled Himself, stepped down from His throne in His created heaven to take upon Himself the fully human flesh, to become 'YHWH of hosts incarnate' and is 'Emmanuel' with us, The God of Israel,  has become the Son incarnated, the  'YESHUA' of Israel. You deny that He, YESHUA the Messiah,  'is come' present tense, in flesh -.

Hi,
You say the “second person of YHWH ” had a throne.

Where is this in the OT?

Is this a throne he shared with the Father or did he have his own one?

Was this throne alongside the Father's throne?

Or did they have a separate realm of heaven too?

Was there another throne for “the third person YHWH” as well considering the claimed equality [that often does not seem that obvious]and if so where is this shown?

Honestly these made up stories are a little fanciful. Is 6 has nothing to do with any “other YHWH”s.

Did you not know God.YHWH is one?

What is the difference betwen type and substance? Are there not three persons in one substance now as that is the official traditional line?Are there three individuals[persons] that change so that one “becomes” the Yeshua servant?

Good grief! what next?

[Anonymous]

Main Entry: equal·i·ty
Pronunciation: i-'kwä-l&-tE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -ties
1 : the quality or state of being equal
2 : EQUATION 2a

Main Entry: 1equal
Pronunciation: 'E-kw&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin aequalis, from aequus level, equal
1 a (1) : of the same measure, quantity, amount, or number as another (2) : identical in mathematical value or logical denotation : EQUIVALENT b : like in quality, nature, or status c : like for each member of a group, class, or society
2 : regarding or affecting all objects in the same way : IMPARTIAL
3 : free from extremes: as a : tranquil in mind or mood b : not showing variation in appearance, structure, or proportion
4 a : capable of meeting the requirements of a situation or a task b : SUITABLE
synonym see SAME

8 entries found for same.
To select an entry, click on it.
same[1,adjective]same[2,pronoun]same[3,adverb]boat[1,noun]breathtar[2,transitive verb]time[1,noun]token[1,noun]

Main Entry: 1same
Pronunciation: 'sAm
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Old Norse samr; akin to Old High German sama same, Latin simulis like, simul together, at the same time, similis like, sem- one, Greek homos same, hama together, hen-, heis one
1 a : resembling in every relevant respect b : conforming in every respect — used with as
2 a : being one without addition, change, or discontinuance : IDENTICAL b : being the one under discussion or already referred to
3 : corresponding so closely as to be indistinguishable
4 : equal in size, shape, value, or importance — usually used with the or a demonstrative (as that, those) in all senses
synonyms SAME, SELFSAME, VERY, IDENTICAL, EQUIVALENT, EQUAL mean not different or not differing from one another. SAME may imply and SELFSAME always implies that the things under consideration are one thing and not two or more things . VERY, like SELFSAME, may imply identity, or, like SAME, may imply likeness in kind . IDENTICAL may imply selfsameness or suggest absolute agreement in all details . EQUIVALENT implies amounting to the same thing in worth or significance . EQUAL implies being identical in value, magnitude, or some specified quality .

[Anonymous]

bump

[Author]

Posts