Who is this Jesus?

[Johan]

retracted

[Proclaimer]

Hi ringo111,

As mentioned b4, I am open to being wrong that Jesus is Wisdom as I do not see it as a must. But I repeat that we must not ignore scripture, just because it doesn't agree with ones point of view. If I agreed with you and followed your example, then I would be encouraging others to do likewise and would therefore be accountable for their actions if I influenced others to do the same.

This activity would also give ammo to the Trinitarians who have argued every which way for their views. If we accepted that we could ignore scripture that didn't support our view, then they could do the same and they do. They could just simply ignore the scriptures that show that God and Jesus are 2 personalities with their reason being that it doesn't agree with other scriptures. We would leave ourselves no defence as they would be doing what were doing and we couldn't prove them wrong unless we repented ourselves.

I mean anyone can ignore whatever scripture they want and come to any conclusion and this is how cults operate. Do you really want to perpetuate that thinking?

If you don't agree with a scripture, then show the evidence of mis-translation or fraud. I agree that 1 John 5:7 is a fraud as I have seen the evidence and most translations recognise that it is a fraud. What evidence do you have that Colossians 1:15-17, Acts 3:15, Hebrews 1:1-2, John 1:3 & 1 Corinthians 11:3 are frauds or mis-translations?

And what makes you think that your decision to back some scriptures and not others, is correct. Could it not be the other way round. Perhaps you are believing in the wrong group of scriptures? Your current thinking makes this a real possibility for you.

I myself do not have this dilema as I see no conflict with both these types of scripture. I see them as complimentary.

Again, I need proof that these scriptures are fraudulent as I simply cannot agree with your evidence to disregard them and I do not wish to perpetuate the dangerous idea that we are at liberty to condemn any scripture if it doesn't fit into our understanding.

[ringo111]

The old testimate prooves it wrong, The theory is not in Keeping with the Old testimate- Trinitarians Believe whatever they want, They are following blindly, and cannot see clearly. The new testiment is riddled with contradiction, that cannot be reconciled with the scriptures, You are ment to test by the old testiment.

I believe that you still have not read my post propperly, You will see that Jesus is not Wisdom, but brought wisdom, and by doing so became wisdom for us, the way, the life, the sacrifice, the king, the brother. Wisdom in the OT Watches GoD make the earth, and men, Which is not all things!!! there is no mention of the angels and theyre beggining.

Trinitarians quote a scripture opposing to theyre views!!! and then say… LOOK THERE IS A QUOTE THAT PROOVES WHAT IM SAYING!! this is precisly what your doing.

But then again so Do non-trinitarians, people born into a non-trinitarian church, or a blind follower- example, those who say Jesus was not in heaven before the creation of the world. Most of everyone is a cult, and then cults provail. This teaching that GoD did not make all things by his own hands- as it says in the OT- as in, He who fashoned the earth, He is GOD!!!

The teaching that GoD created through Jesus is A lie!! This that you believe, is as you would say, a cultish belief!!!  

I see that you are not going to listen, I have allready answered.

I'd encourage you to leave this as an open forum, As you have been doing which is good.

Try selling everything you have and give to the poor, going for yourself treasure in heaven, as Jesus says. Then you will be made good for every good work, as paul says.

I think that may be a blockage for you.

You accused me of thinking myself too great, take a look at yourself man. Your rebuke is far fetched. Cant wait till all is revealed so everyone can know.

Dont you know that the days are getting more evil??? And you do not test the teachings that come to you???

All there is to pray and hope gods way provails, with yourself being apart of GoD's way, instead of being in his way(crushed).

You have given your point of view, I have given Mine. You seem to have reached a point of ignoring my points, What else can be done??? I dont think much can be done but to accept our differences in views, and as It is not an neccisary teaching for salvation, Then Yeah, WOW!!!

^_^ yey l8rz

ps, I dont even know from any outside verses that are accepted as FAKE, apart from some scripture about thre on earth and three in heaven, which was an add in.

So i cant help you on specific things like forgeries, Like, I dont have some guy with degree's in bible scholership saying blah blah blah, fake , ble blah blah, fake. As if they would get in that position, people in high standing usually bow to the crushing powers. The days are evil, like as if they wouldnt just lie and say that they are legit writings.

The way Ive gone about this, is how I come to alot of my decisions, It is one of the best ways of weeding out lies. With the wisdom GoD give's. We all have that ability, Jesus ask's in the bible, why dont judge for yourselvs what is right?? I think this is the best approach, as everyone will have to give an account of themselves, and not others, in the end, that 'great day' as its called.

If i find info, then I'll let you know, It doesnt take much to get labeled a cult by the mainstream churches, who are also labeled “cults” by te biggest “cult” Roman Catholic Church.

Label of cult doesnt mean much except for the ones that are calling the other a cult, Then lets see what happens to those (prodistent and catholic). They kill each other!! Shows how closely they read theyre scriptures!! C'mon, weve had hundreds of years of fools, dictating and recording the bible, as if they havnt filled it with stupid ideas that Satan is orchestrating to promote confusion. Or maybe its GoD's plan, either way, It doesnt really matter, well not to GoD, He gets his way in the end, But we dont. …. So dont be complacent, And guard your doctrine carefully, (bible quote) as in, be sure that what you know to be true is true, and not some lie.

[ringo111]

Johan

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The Greek is clear that the 'outflow' concerns the person of God and not his type of being. This would make Jesus share the person of God, but not any of his attributes.  Jesus is thus fully and only man with no physical or mental advantage over us.

Keeping in mind that Jesus was in heaven before his birth on earth, and testified to that memory, saying he saw satan being thrown. So he had an advantage over Most people having the wisdom of being at least 4000 years old.

Also Jesus has some of GoD's attributes, GoD gave Jesus the command that Jesus could lay his life down and take it up again. The difference being, GoD is allways eternal, and in a word Jesus could be made non-existant. Jesus displayed who GoD was, who he is, by saying if you know me you know GoD aswell. I know what your saying its just that your not being specific enough. Jesus did nothing of himself and only what GoD told him to do and say. So basically Jesus was a puppet, but it was still Jesus Decision to obey and be a puppet. ^_^

The thing is, that jesus Made that 4000 years of wisdom known to us, so now we have no excuse for not being in obediance to GoD's commands.

cool cool

[Proclaimer]

to ringo111,

You say “why dont judge for yourselvs what is right??”

So you base your thinking on this, even when it contradicts scripture. Well I will take you up on that, except I won't go against scripture, rather I will use it to support what I judge as right. If I judge something and I condemn certain scripture, then is it scripture or me that needs to change?

I believe that Christ is Wisdom as in that is one of his names or titles, just as Christ and Son of God is, then I am entitled to that. I do not push this as a foundational doctrine and it makes no difference to me if someone doesn't believe it. Wisdom was the first of God's works and Wisdom praised God when God created everything. Wisdom witnessed God creating the Cosmos and Wisdom was born of God. All these attributes of Wisdom are common with Jesus. Jesus was born of God, he was the firstborn. He witnessed God creating all things and God made all things through him and for him. He is even called Wisdom of God in the New Testament. My belief is not without basis, but I admit that I could be wrong. But I haven't seen the proof yet.

The only thing I am objecting to ringo, is that you have basically condemened the New Testament idea that Jesus is the channel or way and that it contradicts the Old Testament. Therefore you are being hypocritical in even quoting the New Testament in supporting any of your views. If you can condemn a whole New Testament theme, then you cannot condemn others for doing the same with other New Testament themes, such as being born again salvation as a gift of God and not by works or that Jesus is the only way to God. For such ideas are not in the Old Testament either and lets face it to an ignorant mind, the Law contradicts Grace.

You have basically left us all to see that you take some scriptures as truth and others as false. In addition, you think that your judgment is sound with regards to what scriptures are good and what are not and then you encourage us to follow your way of thinking because you teach this conclusion. As it is written “every man is right in his own eyes”. But we should try to see through the eyes of Christ, not our own, for he is the Truth.

Therefore you have set yourself up as a judge and expect us to follow your ways. You then go on and say that you have no evidence of fraudulent activity as you are not a scholar, yet you still repeat that they are forgeries. In other words you make accusations with no witness whatsoever. If I did that to a person in a court of law, it wouldn't stand. E.g he is a murderer, but I have no evidence that he is a murder, so he must be because I said so.

If you do not know know something ringo, then do not set yourself up as the expert or the standard for sound judgement. If you have no proof, then why teach it? Admit that you do not understand something rather than condeming it with no evidence and false teaching. What good can this arrogance bring?

You still hold to the wrong view that God doesn't create through anybody or anything, yet Eve was created by Adam (Old Testament) and you were created through your mother (everyday reality). You ignore even that which children know. This is basic knowledge and most if not all accept this, except for you so it seems. I feel like I am hitting my head against a stone here, the same way I feel when debating with Trinitarians when they choose to simply ignore certain scriptures that don't fit with their theology.

You are flogging a dead horse ringo. It is senseless and a waste of everyones time to try and deny that God doesn't create through anybody, when it is clearly taught in the New Testament and we also see evidence of it everyday.

E.g. God gives us birth THROUGH the Word of Truth.

James 1:18
He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

You were physically born THROUGH your mother. Hello!

God is the Head of Christ, Christ is the head of Man and Man is the head of Woman and the woman came from the man, the man came from Christ and Christ came from God.

The New Testament is a better testament, as the old is a shadow of the new. The old was there in order that we could have the new. The New testament is a greater revelation, not a contradiction.

Silence is better than slander and humility is better than arrogance.

In some ways I feel to just leave you as you are, but for the sake of the other readers, I will challenge your teaching. As it is written:

2 Corinthians 10:5
We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

[ringo111]

heyo T8

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to ringo111, You say “why dont judge for yourselvs what is right??”

Luke 12:57
“Why don't you judge for yourselves what is right?

Acts 4:19
But Peter and John replied, “Judge for yourselves whether it is right in God's sight to obey you rather than God.

1 Corinthians 10:15
I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say.

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So you base your thinking on this, even when it contradicts scripture. Well I will take you up on that, except I won't go against scripture, rather I will use it to support what I judge as right. If I judge something and I condemn certain scripture, then is it scripture or me that needs to change?

We are to wiegh teaching Verses scripture, ^_^ Seen as the days are evil, anything in the bible is even to be put under the miscroscope. Sad but true. Thats why I dont like this world ^_^ glad the new orders coming ^^;;

The problem is, contradicting writings, ding ding ding, OT wins.
Jesus prooved his legitimacy Via OT, well, not that that changed much.

All scripture is good for rebuking correcting. Scripture at that point was the OT, not the writings of the New testiment writers. They were aware Of eachothers writings, Paul Disagreed with other disciples about specifics. So the OT was the measuring rule, thats why they constantly refer to OT when they make a statement.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

You see they call the OT scriptures

James 2:23
And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[ 2:23 Gen. 15:6] and he was called God's friend.

James 2:8
If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,”[ 2:8 Lev. 19:18] you are doing right.

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I believe that Christ is Wisdom as in that is one of his names or titles, just as Christ and Son of God is, then I am entitled to that. I do not push this as a foundational doctrine and it makes no difference to me if someone doesn't believe it. Wisdom was the first of God's works and Wisdom praised God when God created everything. Wisdom witnessed God creating the Cosmos and Wisdom was born of God. All these attributes of Wisdom are common with Jesus. Jesus was born of God, he was the firstborn. He witnessed God creating all things and God made all things through him and for him. He is even called Wisdom of God in the New Testament. My belief is not without basis, but I admit that I could be wrong. But I haven't seen the proof yet.

Jesus doesnt testify to watching the world being made, only that he saw satan being thrown from heaven. The testimony that GoD created the world is a testimony Kept since Genesis, Not special to Jesus.

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The only thing I am objecting to ringo, is that you have basically condemened the New Testament idea that Jesus is the channel or way and that it contradicts the Old Testament. Therefore you are being hypocritical in even quoting the New Testament in supporting any of your views. If you can condemn a whole New Testament theme, then you cannot condemn others for doing the same with other New Testament themes, such as being born again salvation as a gift of God and not by works or that Jesus is the only way to God. For such ideas are not in the Old Testament either and lets face it to an ignorant mind, the Law contradicts Grace.

Jesus Is the sacrifice, He seperates the sheep from the goats, you obey Jesus, as he says and you will abide in him. By doing this you are following “the way” which is a metaphore, He also talks about the hard road and narrow gates to enter life.

I am not contesting Jesus position, I am contesting this notion of Jesus being a channel through which GoD creates the world, as you call it, Which is in contradiction to Jesus testimony, and the OT, which clearly states GoD alone is the creator, By his own hands made everything.

Jesus didnt come to abolish the Law, But to fullsill it, so we will by his example also be able to fullfill it. But also, so he can seperate the sheep from the goats, good from evil, and to open the scrolls at the end. Jesus Sumed up the Law and the prophets, “love the lord GoD with all your heart, To love your neighbour as yourself” This Law does not Nullify GoD's Grace!!

Romans 11:22-24
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

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You have basically left us all to see that you take some scriptures as truth and others as false. In addition, you think that your judgment is sound with regards to what scriptures are good and what are not and then you encourage us to follow your way of thinking because you teach this conclusion. As it is written “every man is right in his own eyes”. But we should try to see through the eyes of Christ, not our own, for he is the Truth.

As do you, You egknolegde writings in the bible to be faulse, and not all to be taken as correct authentic teaching.

Do you somehow think that you dont have a mind??? taking on the mind of christ is obeying his commands, by living as he commands. The holy spirit is to guide you into, “all truth”

Jesus said whoever is on the side of truth listens to him, He also said 'i tell you the truth'

GoD shows the trueth, Truth is whatever GoD calls real, Whatever he makes, He showed Jesus what is right, Jesus tesifies to the truth. You are taking a metaphore and forging it into litrilization, your view is more sci-fi than reality.

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Therefore you have set yourself up as a judge and expect us to follow your ways. You then go on and say that you have no evidence of fraudulent activity as you are not a scholar, yet you still repeat that they are forgeries. In other words you make accusations with no witness whatsoever. If I did that to a person in a court of law, it wouldn't stand. E.g he is a murderer, but I have no evidence that he is a murder, so he must be because I said so.

You are also setting yourself up as a Judge.

I am not going off no evidence!!
I am going off the OT scripture,
Including the NT which most of it agree's V.S. Your belief, which are some writings in the NT that have no OT backing at all!!

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If you do not know know something ringo, then do not set yourself up as the expert or the standard for sound judgement. If you have no proof, then why teach it? Admit that you do not understand something rather than condeming it with no evidence and false teaching. What good can this arrogance bring?

Can u proove that they are legit!??!!??

Once again, there is plenty of evidence. It is not arrogance, allthough, Some may see it that way.

Like Jesus teaching in the streets, or his disciples, or normal people, telling the rulers of theyre religion that theyre wrong.

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You still hold to the wrong view that God doesn't create through anybody or anything, yet Eve was created by Adam (Old Testament) and you were created through your mother (everyday reality). You ignore even that which children know. This is basic knowledge and most if not all accept this, except for you so it seems. I feel like I am hitting my head against a stone here, the same way I feel when debating with Trinitarians when they choose to simply ignore certain scriptures that don't fit with their theology.

Eve was not created by adam, GoD used a piece of dirt, which was adams body to make Eve. Just as Jesus says 'GoD made them male and female.' GoD put in place the Mechanism for reproduction, without GoD creating that part in a woman They could not have reproduced. They themselves are not creating, It is a passive thing, They have no controll, all we as humans can do is destroy that cycle, not create. 

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You are flogging a dead horse ringo. It is senseless and a waste of everyones time to try and deny that God doesn't create through anybody, when it is clearly taught in the New Testament and we also see evidence of it everyday.

We are not talking about just anybody or any type of reproduction Of what GoD made, and set in place. We are talking about the creation of the World, the unirverse and man. And it is that part Of creation that GoD testifies and Wisdom testifies that was Done only by GoD.

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E.g. God gives us birth THROUGH the Word of Truth. James 1:18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

Yes, Jesus testified to the truth, gave us the command to Obey his commands, and we will be fruitfull.

This Does not Say what you want it to mean.

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You were physically born THROUGH your mother. Hello! God is the Head of Christ, Christ is the head of Man and Man is the head of Woman and the woman came from the man, the man came from Christ and Christ came from God.

GoD is the Head, Talking about Authority here, Not Order of creation. It uses the Fact that Woman was made from man to Justify the Order, Its also a reason why paul says, He does “not permit a woman to teach.”

Matthew 19:4
“Haven't you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,'[ 19:4 Gen. 1:27]

Mark 10:6
“But at the beginning of creation God 'made them male and female.'[ 10:6 Gen. 1:27]

GoD, the creator made them, Not Jesus, It would not say GoD made them, If what you say is correct, But it would say that GoD created Jesus, then Jesus created Man, than man created Woman.

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The New Testament is a better testament, as the old is a shadow of the new. The old was there in order that we could have the new. The New testament is a greater revelation, not a contradiction.

Yes, But as you have accepted in other cases, Has been abused and tampered with.

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Silence is better than slander and humility is better than arrogance. In some ways I feel to just leave you as you are, but for the sake of the other readers, I will challenge your teaching. As it is written: 2 Corinthians 10:5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

Roger that ^_^ , Exactly what im doing ^_^

I pray that you dont find this a discouragment, But push on man, that GoD give's u more wisdom and protected from Satans plans, and more angels sent to protect You ^_^  According to GoD's will , Amen.

[Proclaimer]

To ringo111,

From your reply, I can only conclude that you consider the Old Testament as scripture, but not the new. So for you to quote from the New Testament would mean that you are quoting from a source that is unreliable in your own eyes.

So let it be known to the readers that you think the New Testament is unreliable and it is the Old Testament that is scripture.

Here is an Old Testament scripture for you regarding Eve's creation.

Genesis 2:21-22
21 So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs and closed up the place with flesh.
22 Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.

So Adam was fashioned from dust and Eve was taken from Adam. So Eve was created THOUGH Adam. Of course a rib contained Adams DNA and from that code God made woman. She is FROM Man.

Here are some New Testament verses you may want to consider.

Romans 1:2
the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures

2 Peter 3:16
He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

2 Peter 1:21
For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Revelation 19:10
At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

I am just a little curious as to your beliefs on salvation and grace. Without the New Testament, it would be hard to believe in doctrines such as being born again and that Jesus died for our sins, etc.

Your quote “The problem is, contradicting writings, ding ding ding, OT wins.” means that it is an aye for an eye, rather than letting your neighbour slap your other cheek. If the Old Testament wins, then ding ding ding, slap him back aye! After all that is what the Old Testament teaches and it contradicts Jesus teachings, yes?.

Leviticus 24:20
fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. As he has injured the other, so he is to be injured.

Matthew 5:38-39
38 “You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'
39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Yes definately a contradiction with scripture. What was Jesus thinking. Or perhaps that verse was added in?

Lastly, I can only assume from your beliefs that you were not created through your mother. But that God fashioned you from the dirt. As God never created through a channel as you say. So if scripture says that God created all things and not through anything (which is wrong) then you do not have a mother because ding ding ding the OT wins again. Mothers are a deception, sad but true.
 

[ringo111]

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To ringo111, From your reply, I can only conclude that you consider the Old Testament as scripture, but not the new. So for you to quote from the New Testament would mean that you are quoting from a source that is unreliable in your own eyes.

Not entirly unreliable, But everything is to be questioned and weighed.

1 Corinthians 2:15
The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:

I did not say that these sources are an entirely made up, The OT is what the writers use as a tool for weighing the validity of what they say. I did not originate this system, I am following the teaching of the disciples, and Jesus, He came quoting scripture to validate his claims.

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So let it be known to the readers that you think the New Testament is unreliable and it is the Old Testament that is scripture.

read above.

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Here is an Old Testament scripture for you regarding Eve's creation. Genesis 2:21-22 21 So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs and closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man. So Adam was fashioned from dust and Eve was taken from Adam. So Eve was created THOUGH Adam. Of course a rib contained Adams DNA and from that code God made woman. She is FROM Man.

GoD did not create through adam, But took out of Adam His rib, Removed it, and then By GoD's own power made Woman. As GoD and JEsus testify. Some Jesus quotes.

Matthew 19:4
“Haven't you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,'[ 19:4 Gen. 1:27]

Mark 10:6
“But at the beginning of creation God 'made them male and female.'[ 10:6 Gen. 1:27]

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Here are some New Testament verses you may want to consider. Romans 1:2 the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 2 Peter 3:16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. 2 Peter 1:21 For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. Revelation 19:10 At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

Yes, 2 peter 3:16 is a scripture that I use alot, Be on your guard ^_^

You see, the original authentic letters were hard to understand, and were distorted by people reading them.
Translators are not exempt from this warning ^_^

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I am just a little curious as to your beliefs on salvation and grace. Without the New Testament, it would be hard to believe in doctrines such as being born again and that Jesus died for our sins, etc. Your quote “The problem is, contradicting writings, ding ding ding, OT wins.” means that it is an aye for an eye, rather than letting your neighbour slap your other cheek. If the Old Testament wins, then ding ding ding, slap him back aye! After all that is what the Old Testament teaches and it contradicts Jesus teachings, yes?.

By the OT we are shown this, Jesus Quotes it to valadate himself.

Luke 4
And he stood up to read. 17The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:
   18″The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
      because he has anointed me
      to preach good news to the poor.
  He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
      and recovery of sight for the blind,
  to release the oppressed,
       19to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor.”[5] .”[ 4:19 Isaiah 61:1,2]

And also

Acts 3:22-23
22For Moses said, 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. 23Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from among his people.'[2]3:23 Deut. 18:15,18,19  

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Leviticus 24:20 fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. As he has injured the other, so he is to be injured. Matthew 5:38-39 38 “You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' 39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. Yes definately a contradiction with scripture. What was Jesus thinking. Or perhaps that verse was added in?

Jesus prooves by the OT (scripture) that He is the messiah, That he brings a new order, That was made clear by his lifestyle, Instead of the GoDly killing everyone like GoD's people Had done in the past, It was now a time to endure under hardship. Part of the answer is in what Ive written above this quote aswell.

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Lastly, I can only assume from your beliefs that you were not created through your mother. But that God fashioned you from the dirt. As God never created through a channel as you say. So if scripture says that God created all things and not through anything (which is wrong) then you do not have a mother because ding ding ding the OT wins again. Mothers are a deception, sad but true.

Sad to hear you think Mothers are a deception.

AdAm was made out of the Dirt, Right???                                          YEs
Adam Being dirt that is alive, because GoD made him alive
Had his rib removed.                                                              yEs
GoD using that Rib, (the Dirt that made alive) to make a Woman                                                          YeS

You are Sadly mistaken. GoD made the reproductive mechanism we call reproduction. Without GoD making that process, They would not have been able to reproduce.

Once again I'll quote these. NT verses which are in agreeance with OT

Matthew 19:4
“Haven't you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,'[ 19:4 Gen. 1:27]

Mark 10:6
“But at the beginnin
g of creation God 'made them male and female.'[ 10:6 Gen. 1:27]

OT in agreeance.

Genesis 1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

Genesis 5:2
He created them male and female and blessed them. And when they were created, he called them “man.

I hope this makes it more clear for you. Any other questions??

[Proclaimer]

So ringo111, you admit that God creates THROUGH others.

Also my advise to anyone reading this discussion is to be very careful with what ringo 111 is advocating. He ignores a whole set of New Testament scriptures that teach that God (the Father) made all things through his son and for him. Although in itself, this doctrine is not foundational, we should be wary of his free license to ignore any part of the New Testament that he desires or that doesn't agree with his interpretation. We would do well to not follow his example.

Ephesians 5:5
For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person–such a man is an idolater–has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

[Proclaimer]

1 Corinthians 2:6-
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 However, as it is written:
“No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him”
10 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.

[Ramblinrose]

I stand with RingoIII on this one.

I have always maintained that only Yahweh created and this can be seen in the trinity posts. I have also used the same arguments as RingoIII. My view that Yahshua pre-existed has now changed though. I don't believe he existed until he was born a 100% human man.

[/QUOTE]If you don't agree with a scripture, then show the evidence of mis-translation or fraud. I agree that 1 John 5:7 is a fraud as I have seen the evidence and most translations recognise that it is a fraud. What evidence do you have that Colossians 1:15-17, Acts 3:15, Hebrews 1:1-2, John 1:3 & 1 Corinthians 11:3 are frauds or mis-translations?

*****Acts 3
13 “The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let Him go.
14 “But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you,
15 “and killed the Prince of life, whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses.

NEW AMERICAN STANDARD GREEK LEXICON
747. archgov archegos; from 757 and 2233; founder, leader:— NAS-author (2), Prince (1), prince (1).

Yahshua is the Price/Author/Founder of life – THE LIFE TO COME AT THE RESURRECTION.

*****Hebrews 1
1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
2has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds (165);

New American Standard Greek Lexicon
165. aiwn aion; from a prim. root appar. mean. continued duration; a space of time, an age:—
NAS-age (20), ages (6), ancient time (1), beginning of time (1), course (1), eternal (2), eternity (1), ever* (2), forever (27), forever and ever (20), forevermore (2), long ago (1), never* (1), old (1), time (1), world (7), worlds (1).

Yahshua had nothing to do with the creation of this current world – it is through him that we have the age to come.

Please scroll to the Hebrews section in the following article.
http://www2.bibelcenter.de/bibliothek/bland/1god4.html#b

*****Colossians 1:15-17
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Please scroll to the Colossians section in the following article (same as the one above).
http://www2.bibelcenter.de/bibliothek/bland/1god4.html#b

*****John
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

I do not believe that the Word in John 1 is Yahshua – I believe it is what God said/the plan/the message of Yahweh – God spoke everything in to existence. Please read from the following sites for more information on John 1.

http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~cmadd01/john1.html
http://www.onhigh.org/JohnChapter1.htm
http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/html….sid=172
http://biblicalunitarian.com/html….&sid=61

God Bless

[Proclaimer]

Hi Ramblinrose,

Hope you are well.

As far as I know, ringo111 believes that Jesus pre-existed and you do not. I am in agreement with ringo111 on that, but I am totally against his example of ignoring verses in the New Testament that are contrary to his belief. If he has no proof of mis-translation or fraud, then he should be silent. He is acting no better than Trinitarians who ignore certain New Testament verses as they contradict their understanding of certain doctrine. This kind of practice is destructive as you can use it to make the New Testament say anything you want it to say and it is something that should never be encouraged or endorsed. If I were to endorse this thinking, then I would not be able to defend against others who do the same to prove the Trinity for example.

Regarding pre-existance, there are just too many verses that show that Jesus pre-existed for me to ignore. It is not a small thing, but a consistent teaching in the New Testament.

Jesus himself said that he pre-existed. I have read some of the writings that you have quoted quite a while ago and to me they didn't convince me that Jesus didn't pre-exist. It just seemed liked too much hard work in reasoning around the many scriptures that show that Jesus pre-existed and many of the verses that I use as a foundation for this belief were not mentioned such as John 8:58.

So how do you, for example, reason the following verses that show clearly on the outset that he pre-existed.

John 6:38-40
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 1:15
John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.'“

Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

John 17
5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!“

Proverbs 30:4
Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!  

btw, I do not believe that Christ is the creator either, rather he was the channel that God made all things through. i.e. God created through his Word, but it was still God that created. So it is with redemption. God is our saviour, but he sent his son to die for us. This was God's will and he saved us THROUGH his son. I do not teach that Jesus is the creator.

It seems fitting to me that God would save us through the one who he created all things through.

Perhaps we can talk about God creating (or not) the worlds through Christ after I understand your belief that Christ didn't pre-exist. Once I understand where you are coming from there, it will make it easier to follow your reasoning through to Christ not being the channel that God made the cosmos/age through.

I have always maintained that I am open minded and can change if necessary, but I need sound reasoning, clear thinking and scriptural agreement.

[Ramblinrose]

The Pre-Existence of Yahshua

It is easier for me to refer you to the sites below as they cover the areas dealing with this subject and saves me the time of only repeating from them. I am not going to get into a verse war with you as this is unproductive. Either you see it or you don’t. I have seen you in verse wars with Global and others and now with RingoIII; I fail to see the point of it all – nobody wins.

Look at those who once passionately believed in the trinity only to find that further along on their journey they finally see the One True God YHWH and the one he ‘Annointed’; Yahshua. Some will see it, others will not.

Realising that Yahshua is not God also allows you to now deal with verses that once supported this. If Yahshua was God he had to preexist. If Yahshua is not God he does not have to preexist – there is no requirement that the Messiah would preexist his birth. Old testament reveals that the Messiah would be a prophet like Moses and from the lineage of David. He does not have to preexist to fulfil these requirements. He was to be made in all ways like his brethren, born of a woman, born under the law – a 100% human being under YHWH’s rule.

These points and many more are covered in the articles below.

http://cdelph.org/jesus.html
http://www.mindspring.com/~anthonybuzzard/preexist.htm
http://www.intergate.com/~jcordaro/preexist%3F.html
http://www2.bibelcenter.de/bibliothek/bland/1god4.html#b

God Bless

[ringo111]

I believe Jesus was in heaven Before his being made into mans likeness.

I believe GoD Created all things- Jesus is one of those created things.

No-one is before GoD , GoD is our Alpha-Omega. Because Really He had no beggining, and has no end.

Thats why Jesus said, Worship the lord your GoD, only him shall you serve. Remember Jesus said we will be kings with him, And that His Brothers and Sisters and Mothers are those who Hear GoD's word and obeys it. ^_^

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Ramblinrose @ May 09 2004,17:22)

I am not going to get into a verse war with you as this is unproductive.

To Ramblinrose,

I see it as the following:

2 Corinthians 10:5
We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

My beliefs must agree with scripture. It's simple. If it is not scriptural, then I have to rethink my belief. Jesus often said “it is written”. I do not have a problem doing the same. If someone passes of a teaching that is not scriptural then I will use scripture just as Jesus did. You can think what I am doing is bad or distasteful or whatever, but I esteem truth above political correctness or mans righteousness. Of course Jesus pissed a lot of people off with this attitude, but it depends on how much you want truth. For all who seek truth will be persecuted and they will tread on toes. E.g John the Baptist was beheaded for telling the truth. I am not here to say “I told you so”, and I am not interested in pushing what gives me an advantage, as truth. I just want truth.

Yes, you can see something that others cannot see. I can also see your reason for believing that Christ did not pre-exist if we talk about that which doesn't exist yet as if it does. But we can see many angles on anything. If I read a JW site, I will see what they are saying and if I read a Catholic one, I can see what they are saying too, just as I see what Unitarians are saying. But what matters to me is what the scripture says. I don't believe that Yashua pre-existed because he is God, or because Catholics believe that, but because of those verses I gave you. It makes no difference to me what the truth is. I do not think any man made label has got a monopoly on truth. It is only my job to search out truth. I am just interested in the truth because it is the truth. It is that simple.

So I read the links you gave me and I am still not convinced of this view.
 

Quote

And consider the statement itself: “firstBORN of every creature.” Does not that demand a mother? Who was the mother who gave birth to him before all others?

This is something I read on one of the sites you gave me and it seems like a hard push when trying to convince people that Jesus cannot be the firstborn (in time). But the answer to me is simple. Jesus is called the only begotten of the Father. He was given birth directly from the Father and creation was given birth from God through Christ. God was his Father or Mother in the sense that he was born from God.

Quote

But John 6:38-40 For I have come down from heaven The manna is described as “bread from heaven” (John 6:32), and the Lord likened himself to anti-typical manna or “bread from heaven” (vv. 32-33). Does this description mean that the manna was manufactured in heaven, at the dwelling place of God, and wafted down in a thick cloud every night through the illimitable spaces above to the wilderness below? Or did God send His spirit to earth, and there manufacture it?

But this is talking about provision coming from heaven. All good things come down from Heaven from the Father of lights. But what about taking verses that are more similar in structure, such as:

2 Kings 1:10
Elijah answered the captain, “If I am a man of God, may fire come down from heaven and consume you and your fifty men!” Then fire fell from heaven and consumed the captain and his men.

John 1:32
Then John gave this testimony: “I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him.

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

We are even told that the Lord will return the same way he left the earth.

Acts 1:11
“Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

So when I look at John 6:38-40 and Acts 1:11, I see it as saying that Jesus came down from Heaven, he then returned to Heaven and he will come again in the same way that he left. But one of the writings I read said that the first one doesn't mean coming down from Heaven and uses the manna example. To be honest, I find it hard to accept this reasoning and the verses I quoted would be wrong if read that way.

Quote

Thus Jesus says in John 17:5: “Glorify me [now] with the glory which I had with you before the foundation of the world.” On the basis of 2 Cor. 5:1 a Christian in the future, after the resurrection at Christ’s return, will be able to say that he has now received what he already “had,” i.e. laid up for him in God’s plan. Christians are said to have treasure in heaven (Mark 10:21), that is, a reward stored up with God now and destined to be conferred in the future. This is only to say that they will one day in the future “inherit the Kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world” (Matt. 25:34). When Jesus says that he “had” the glory for which he now prays (John 17:5), he is merely asking for the glory which he knew was prepared for him by God from the beginning. 9 That glory existed in God’s plan, and in that sense Jesus already “had” it. We note that Jesus did not say “Give me back the glory which I had when I was alive with you before my birth.” This notion would have been completely foreign to Judaism. It is quite unnecessary and indeed wrong to read Gentile ideas into the text of Scripture when we can make good sense of them as they stand in their Jewish environment. The onus is on those who believe in literal preexistence to demonstrate that the texts cannot be explained within their own Jewish context.

Again, I think that this is a hard sell because the writer is trying to convince the reader that it is saying “the glory which you had FOR me before the foundation of the world”. But it says “the glory which I had with you before the foundation”. I can see what they are saying, but I don't believe that view, but I will remain open to the possibility that it is right however.

Quote

Though every “good gift and every complete gift” could be said to pre-exist in God's mind, everyone knows that they do not “materialize” until God sees fit to bestow them. In the same way, the Anointed pre-existed in God's mind and then materialized in Jesus of Nazareth when the “fullness of time came” (Gal. 4:4). So the gift of Anointed Jesus originated with “the Father of Lights,” like any other “good gift”! This can be said about all the other allusions to pre-existence as well. When Jesus said, “before Abraham was, I am” (John 8:58), he was following the same perspective. The “message” that was “life” through the Anointed preceded Abraham because it had been in the mind of God before Abraham was born. The reference to “I am” was an integral part of that message as the introduction of John states, “And 'God' the message was.”

So according to this reasoning, I can also say before Abraham was, I am. After all, all things were known by God before he brought them into being and God knew me before I was given birth too. In fact we can go one step further and say that Abraham could have said “before Abraham I am” and I could also say “before t8, I am”. I am not being facetious. I am just pointing out the ramifications of this reasoning. Again I do not agree with this view. Again I think it is a hard sell.

In addition we see that the Jews took up stones to stone him when the Jews said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!” (past tense). So why would they do that if Jesus wasn't claiming to pre-exist. Surely if he was alluding to being a thought or plan, they wouldn't have reacted the way they did as it would be assumed that all of us were known before being created. I believe that they reacted negatively because he claimed to exist before Abraham. To me that verse seems to be quite obvious and clear. 

So to repeat myself, Jesus is blatantly saying that he existed before Abraham. He is not saying that he existed as an idea. After all we can say anything existed as an idea or was ordained before it came into being. If the writers view is correct, then it appears to be a meaningless verse as this can be said about anything, can it not?

Quote

Lets look at the different texts and see if we can decide. In Colossians 1:16, the things that “stand together” (consist) in Jesus would be those things that were said to have been created “in” (en) him which were the “thrones, dominions, principalities and powers” before alluded to as well as the assembly of saints. It is teaching that Jesus was appointed sovereign over all these things. In Ephesians 1:19-23, Paul represents the concept thus:

But Colossians 1:16 says “17 He is BEFORE all things, and in him all things hold together.” So yes we both agree that the next world/age is in Christ. But it says here that he was before all things and it is talking about all things now. If Jesus is the Word become flesh, then we know that the Word was with God before creation. I believe the Word is the expression/image of God. He was born from God and has his own will, just as we do, and we too are images of God and we are born again through the Word of God. All that is born of God has it's own will. If it is born, it is unique and an image or expression is not an idea, but a bringing forth of the idea or thought.

Quote

Hebrews 1 1  God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds (165); New American Standard Greek Lexicon 165. aiwn aion; from a prim. root appar. mean. continued duration; a space of time, an age:— NAS-age (20), ages (6), ancient time (1), beginning of time (1), course (1), eternal (2), eternity (1), ever* (2), forever (27), forever and ever (20), forevermore (2), long ago (1), never* (1), old (1), time (1), world (7), worlds (1). Yahshua had nothing to do with the creation of this current world – it is through him that we have the age to come.

But it clearly says that God made the world(s)/age(s). It doesn't say here that it is exclusively the next age/world. It just says the world/age(s). So I take this verse as it is written.

I didn't see John 1:15 mentioned in the writings, but I conclude thus far, that there are just too many verses that need to be changed or re-reasoned to destroy what appears to be an obvious theme/doctrine, namely that Jesus Christ pre-existed. If there were say a few verses coupled with some of the reasoning I read, I would still find it difficult to accept, given the reasoning from these writings. The New Testament is full of verses that teach or allude to Jesus pre-existence. It is a major theme and these arguments have not swayed me away from that.

Anyway I am somewhat perplexed as to why Trintarians say that Jesus pre-existed and many non-trinitarians do not. It's almost like Trinitarians believe it because it gives them another reason to believe that Jesus is God and non-trinitarians or should I say normal believers tend to go the opposite, perhaps as a reaction against the fallicy of the Trinity doctrine. But in both examples, it is the truth that suffers.

A bad force can lead to a bad reaction and a bad reaction is also bad. What about just taking scripture and letting it paint God's picture for us? If scripture says that the only true God is the Father and that he created the age/world through his son, then what is the problem with that. They do not contradict and who cares what cult believes what. Even cults teach some truth.

E.g If the Mormons believe that Jesus was a Jew, then I am not going to not believe that, just because I do not agree with them in general. My orders come from God, not by rebelling against everything the Devil does or says. Truth shouldn't be obscured by the type of people that believe it. Truth is believed because it is true, regardless of who gives it a bad rap. It appears to me that Trinitarians will almost believe anything as long as it boosts the Trinity doctrine, for it is their foundation, but that doesn't mean that everything they believe is a lie. They accept many truths, just not the ones that contradict their 3 headed god so it seems.

Anyway, if I am truly a truth seeker, then I will remain open minded and I pray in the name of Yahshua, that the Father will show me the truth regarding this matter. If I am wrong, please God, show me the truth.

[Proclaimer]

To Ramblinrose,

I also thought about this later.

It appears that there are multiple heavens or multiple levels of heaven.

2 Corinthians 12:2
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know–God knows.

Isaiah 45:12
It is I who made the earth and created mankind upon it. My own hands stretched out the heavens; I marshaled their starry hosts.

Psalm 8:3
When I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have set in place,

It appears that heaven can refer to the Spiritual Realm or the Throne Room and the heavens can also refer to the stars and sky. It also appears that the Throne of God is above the heavens/stars and is also called heaven. Probably the third heaven that Paul refers to.

Isaiah 14:13
You said in your heart, “I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.

Job 22:12
“Is not God in the heights of heaven? And see how lofty are the highest stars!

So if manna or Jesus comes down from heaven, then it can mean the sky, the stars or the spiritual realm.

If Jesus were first conceived through Mary, then why say that he came down from heaven (sky, stars, spirtual realm or throne). If coming down from heaven meant being concieved for the first time by being born from a woman, then we also came down from heaven. I do not hold this view.

John 1:11
He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

It seems that we were already his and he came to us. In my opinion if he came to us, he would have to have come from heaven to us. I believe that he left his former glory and received it back again when he was taken back up to heaven, after being raised from the dead.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (ringo111 @ May 09 2004,21:58)

I believe GoD Created all things- Jesus is one of those created things.

Although I agree with most of your post, I do not hold the view that Jesus was created because of the following scriptures:

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So how can Christ be made, if all things were made through him. In other words he would have to of existed in order to come into existence. This paradox is explained in the following verses.

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[ 1:14 Or the Only Begotten] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

1 John 4:9
This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son[ 4:9 Or his only begotten Son] into the world that we might live through him.

Scripture teaches us that Yashua was begotten directly by God and hence he is the one and only begotten Son of God. From there, God created all through him and nothing (as in created things) exists that wasn't created through him.

So we have God and creation and in between we have Yahsua who is known as the only mediator between God.

This unique relationship enables God to have fellowship with man and for God to pay the price for all of our sin. To me, this explains why Christ can die for all and give life to all. Just as a vine can give life to all the branches, so Christ gives us life. But it is God who tends the vine.

John 15:1
“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.

John 15:5
“I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

If there was no son, then there would be no creation. For creation was made for him and through him.

[ringo111]

Hey mate how art thee ^_^

Quote

Although I agree with most of your post, I do not hold the view that Jesus was created because of the following scriptures: John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. So how can Christ be made, if all things were made through him. In other words he would have to of existed in order to come into existence. This paradox is explained in the following verses.

I have proven that writing incorect- That is a mistranslation or an addition.

Quote

John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[ 1:14 Or the Only Begotten] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

From the same rubbish translation or added writting which I allready addressed and prooved untrue.

Quote

1 John 4:9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son[ 4:9 Or his only begotten Son] into the world that we might live through him.

That we might Live through Him, Notice “Might” As in it is a choice- Do what Jesus says = Go to heaven –
Your interpritation is incorrect.

Quote

Scripture teaches us that Yashua was begotten directly by God and hence he is the one and only begotten Son of God. From there, God created all through him and nothing (as in created things) exists that wasn't created through him. So we have God and creation and in between we have Yahsua who is known as the only mediator between God. This unique relationship enables God to have fellowship with man and for God to pay the price for all of our sin. To me, this explains why Christ can die for all and give life to all. Just as a vine can give life to all the branches, so Christ gives us life. But it is God who tends the vine.

Your conclusion Just because Jesus is the mediator Does not make us made through him- There have been many intercessors for the people- Its just that Jesus is made the High priest now!! We are all to be preists-

Jesus does not give life to all!!! He had life because GoD commanded that he should have life- Jesus only Posses' what GoD Gives him.

Quote

John 15:1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.

Yes he is ^_^, But think about this- This can be taken way out of context- You could even say that we are christs body itself- Which is wrong. Or that all are married to christ- Which is wrong!!

All this means is what Jesus says about his life and his words- Those who hear GoDs word and obeys it- They are his brothers and sisters and mothers!!

Quote

John 15:5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If there was no son, then there would be no creation. For creation was made for him and through him.

How about Jesus is saying what he means, Like the disciples say- “teacher, where would we go?? you have the words of life” God Gave Jesus that power- thats all this means- After GoD created everything. You just Want It to say somthing that it doesnt. Your doing a typical human thing which you hate, Plz stop ^_^

T8 my assumption is that you'll huff and puff about this. But thats ok- I pray that maybe you take this well, I think your many years as an X trinity convert is still showing at times. Hmm, no Its just Human nature. Ahh well, L8rz.

I seriously hope you dont go postal and delete all the posts ^_^ It takes a long time for me to type, and I want to get a record of everything one day ^_^.

Im preety sure Ive allready addressed all of these points more clearly in past posts- Youve just decided not to take notice- and you discount them as Irrelivent- You seem to think that it is not Contradiction to say GoD made all things by his own hands by no-one- That Jesus says GoD the creator Created Men women, Earth the heavens . ..  All the while You believe that Jesus was used to create everything!! You call that belief sound??? Your understanding is a very unstable teaching!! You accuse me of arrogance- Hmm as I think about How youve rejected alot of my points as irrelivent- Seems that you are either arrogant- or ignorant. I dont mean to be mean about it- Im just Being honest. I dont want you to hate me- we are brothers, well I believe we are. Its just I think your seriously wrong on this point.

Just as a trinitarian does not see it contradiction to say There is one GoD, Father Son Holyspirit- As do you saying there is one creator- But that Jesus was used to create all things, when Jesus testifies that he had nothing to do with creation- you call Jesus a liier by this Belief of yours!!

None the less- I think GoD will overlook it. ^_^

I like how you egknowledge the fact that Just because someone teaches something that is wrong – Not all of their teaching is to considered wrong- In fact many religions Have much right. And the same Just because someone is right about many things, doesnt make them all right.

But it seems hard for people to distinguish the two.

To everyone out there- It is your responsibility to know for yourself what is right!! A spiritual man discerns all things!!

L8r ^_^

[ringo111]

I see you still have not responded, Hmm, Well, here are some more points.

Proof Jesus is Not the holy Spirit!!

Jesus talks to the pharasees

John 5:38-40
38nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 39You diligently study[3] the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

*holy spirit continues this same work, so scriptures are not to be followed as life, We are ment to ask GoD, as Jesus says, for the holy spirit, and GoD will Give him(the holy spirit) to us to lead us into all truth.

*You see, Jesus asked GoD to send the holy Spirit, Who Jesus said that he will ask GoD to send when Jesus Left earth To be by GoD's side. Jesus said that this spirit of truth, would continue Jesus Work. And that If He(jesus) did not Go, then the holy spirit would not be sent to all the world. Because Jesus is not omnipresent, He knew the holy spirit could do a better Job at bringing more people into truth at once then himself.

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Now to the other debate.

GoD made the world By himself By his own hands , Not through anyone

Point #1 Jesus came into being by GoD's voice, Gods voice comes out in Words! like we have words, or a word, Like people say, “I have a word” when its more than one word that they say(constantly done in OT). John 1:1-5 Is a fake, Or a severe misinterpritation. Jesus and GoD show elsewhere who made what, You are in severe error in that point.

Point #2 – the point that t8 put for me. The earliest writings do not say that GoD created the world through Jesus, Please resume this discussion and please stop ignoring many points.

Your interpritation takes writings out of context, Jesus himself Testifies that GoD the creator created man, heaven and earth. All we need to find is one thing created by GoD alone to proove that not everything was made through Jesus, But we have 3 things listed specifically by Jesus that were not made through him, but by GoD. No-where is Jesus accredited to creation, he is the firstborn of creation, therefore how can he be firstborn of himself?? If all things are creaed through him??

That is contradiction to believe that Jesus created all things, because he did not create himself, He is included in all things, just like man, earth heavens.

God also said, he who created all things is GoD. And by no-one else did he make them, By his own hands he stretched out the heavens!!!!! Not by the Word!!! Not by Jesus!!! By his own hands!!! GoD does not miss out critical things like that.

Even your attempt to call Wisdom the creative vessle that GoD uses is a direct lie formulated by your own beliefs, For that quote only says that wisdom Watched GoD create the heaven and earth, and then worked by GoDs side, after everything was created.

T8 still refused to answer these points, Though the discussion was Migrated to another Thread. “BibLe”

http://heaven.net.nz/cgi-bin….29;st=0

[Proclaimer]

You still quote from the NT to prove your argument, but part of your argument is that the NT is corrupt. So you either contradict your own belief or you simply pick and choose for yourself that some things are scripture and others that contradict your beliefs cannot be scripture.

Doesn't that just seem a bit big-headed or even weird? I mean if I did that I think you would conclude that I needed to stop trusting in myself. What will you say to those other people who do what you do? What about Trinitarians who ignore scriptures that show that the Father is the Most High God and Jesus us his image etc. How can you say that when they ignore scripture and use others that they are wrong, when you do the same thing.

What would you say to them if they took all the scriptures that teach clearly that the Most High God is exclusively the Father and said that they were simply part of a corruption as to be added in, or mistranslated. I think you might see it as a copout and that is how I view your teaching that ignores NT teachings from the Apostles, that God created all things through his Word/Logos and all things came into existence from God through his Logos and then the Logos became flesh and walked and talked and was beheld by his Apostles and disciples.

Again how would you react if they simply rejected a whole theme of scriptures that contradicted their belief???

Well I think that your reaction may be the same as my reaction to you doing it.

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