Who is this Jesus?

[vicalcabasa]

Epi, I’m sure we can all agree that Jesus pre-existed even way before the Old Testament. He pre-existed before time as the Word of God. The Word was with God in the beginning. We can also read in the bible that the Holy Spirit has divine attributes and personality as well. And of course there’s the Father.

And these scriptures post a problem because they seem to violate the declaration of Bible Truth … “Hear o Israel the LORD our God is the only One.”

Unitarian Solution?: One God in three different divine expression/form.

Trinitarian Solution :  God has Triune Nature.

And yes nick, they explain the triune nature of God but only with words and meanings they admit are difficult to understand (guess simplicity is not in their vocabulary , cubes). And they are quick to add that the concept or idea of triune nature of God is implicit, presupposed, implied in the scriptures. These are the exact words they used. (Source: International Standard Bible Enc).

So I guess the question is HOW did they arrived in the conclusion that these three divine personalities are interrelated in such a way (trinity) as they conceived it, when the scriptures would only go so far to describe their simple relationship with one another (i.e. Father and Son, Holy Spirit going forth from the Father thru the Son).

The answer is in their explanation too. It is presupposed and implied (in their own words) in the scriptures. In other words they assume it to be as such based on what the scriptures are implying regarding the nature of God.

So at best, the concept of triune nature is an assumption or an interpretation based on scriptures. For example, the beast in revelation 13 is a world empire. That is solid scriptures. If we say that the beast is the US or the EU or the UN or the Roman Empire, etc, that’s interpretation of the scriptures. Such is the case of the trinity.

Christians are made to believe that they can not believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit without believing also that the nature of these three are triune, and cannot be a Christian without accepting that God is triune in nature. These were never taught by Jesus, by the apostles and by the apostolic fathers of the New Testament church. These two beliefs must be separated.

In that way when Trinitarian view of god’s nature is questioned they would not be threaten as if their very own faith is being attacked, but only their view with regards to God’s nature. And those who question this view would not feel guilty as if their attacking the very faith which they share with them.

And then we will be united in one body. Discussing relevant Christian views like pre, a, post millennialism, Trinitarian, Unitarian and what not view of god’s nature not in a divisive, fierce and provocative way. But as it supposed to be, a simple exchange of views.

[vicalcabasa]

Quote (liljon @ July 19 2005,23:01)

Exodus 4:1 And Moses answered and said, But, behold, they will not believe me, nor hearken unto my voice: for they will say, The LORD hath not appeared unto thee. God himself was that “Angel” (messenger).

20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.” -NIV Ex 33:20

If YHWH is the angel himself, Moses would have died right there and then.

and if YHWH is the messenger himself. there is no logic because He would not be called a messenger because if he would have talk to Moses Himself directly, therefore there is no need for a messenger. as nick wanted to point out.

[Christofer]

Where is YHWH applied to the Father?

[NickHassan]

Hi c,
Where is it not applied to the Father in the OT?
Jesus identified the Father as the God of the Jews and himself as the Son of God.

[Anonymous]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 15 2005,10:58)

Hi guest, So three persons that are not persons as we would know them as they are connected. They are not separate but part of one God and have never been individual. Well they have in a way as they all have separate roles. They are equal. But they are not really equal as there is an authority structure and they are sent by one another. Now the Son is begotten but he also cannot have been as he is connected still to the Father from whom he was begotten. He has life in himself but he doesn't really as he shares the life of his Father and the Spirit and they are of one substance. This is the God that the Jews say is one ?   Naah God is one. The rest is fantasy.

Hello Nick,
Hello Nick,
There are some mighty lot of scriptures that say otherwise about Jesus than what you are saying.
If I am welcome, I would like to go through several scriptures that show the purpose of this creation and the fall and the redemption, and how and by Whom, from the word.

They have to start with Adam and who he was, in relation to creation, and the purpose he was created for and the dominion he was given, however, to get to Jesus and 'Who' He is;

Do you believe Adam was created as the 'god of this earth'? -that is to say, as the son of Elohim, a human being, who was created on day six and given dominion over this planet and the atmosphere and all that is in them? -Hope so, for the word says so.

I have some scriptures for you to consider about that, and they relate to 'Who' Jesus Christ, as the 'Son of God', is;

The scriptures say Adam was created as son of God (Luke 3:38), and that would be the word 'Elohim', if in Hebrew; so the word says 'Adam was son of Elohim'.

Adam was created by Elohim, a plural form of the word for judge, god, ruler-; who said 'Let Us make man in our image according to our likeness”, and so 'He' made 'him' in His image, -'male and female'; then He gave Adam (male and female), dominion over the earth and atmosphere and everything in them that He had just created 'perfect' and 'good' in the five days before; Genesis 1 and 2, esp; 1:26-28.

So we see the word says Adam was a created son of Elohim, a human, and his dominion as a son of Elohim was this earth.

The first Adam was the chief, -to be father and priest, above and over his seed, before His Creator; and was made to live forever, inhabitating his dominion, for God gave him the fruit of the tree of life to eat 'freely'.

He was to multiply and fill the earth, which was created to be inhabited with the godly seed forever; his sons, the godly seed, or offspring, that were to come forth through him (Malachi 2;15) to fill the earth were given this earth as their habitation.

Psalm 8 elaborates on Genesis 1:26-28, and shows that God
crowned him with His glory, and 'son of Adam', is included in the verse to show that the plan was for man and 'son of man (Adam)' to have the dominion and crown of glory and dominion over the creation;

Jesus Christ's body did not come from the loins of Adam, for Adam's seed is cursed with the death and corruption that came into the Adam family when Adam ate the fruit that was evil; but He did come as Adam's brother, the human one who inherits this kingdom as the 'Firstborn', who will now be called the 'God' of all the earth, as a human being, forever, for He, as a human being, got the birthright that Adam had been given, and as a human son of God, a brother, He has the right of redemption, as Kinsman.

Only a Kinsman could redeem, and He came as Kinsman, but no other man, no one of Adam, had any power to redeem himself or any other, for Adam was unclean, and no offering could make his vessel clean, and any offering he would bring in an unclean vessel (his cursed clay body), would not be acceptable.

Psa 8:4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of (Adam) man, that thou visitest him?

Psa 8:5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

Psa 8:6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all [things] under his feet:

Now, we do not see all things under the feet of Adam, the man, but we see Jesus, says the author of Hebrews, made a fellow of man, a human, crowned above his fellows -above all human fellows, and all things will be put under His feet when He takes His ransomed kingdom and rules this earth forever in the place that Adam had been given and lost: the place of the Firstborn over all the earth.

To go over it:
As a son of God, Adam had a kingdom, then; and as son of God (male and female), He was to bring forth “Elohim seed” to inhabit this planet, says Malachi 2:15, for He created them one, having a remnant -or residue- of the spirit for He sought a godly seed to populate this planet forever.

That word, translated 'godly' in Malachi 2:15, is 'Elohim' seed, and seed is offspring:

“And did not he make [06213] `asah
one? [0259] 'echad
Yet had he the residue [07605] sh@'ar
of the spirit. [07307] ruwach
And wherefore one? [0259] 'echad
That he might seek [01245] baqash
a godly [0430] 'elohiym
seed. [02233] zera`”

So, not only was Adam created as a son of Elohim, a human, with a kingdom, but the creator wanted him to populate this earth with elohim sons, or offspring, according to this passage.

That brings us to the fact that God wanted this earth to be populated with the godly (the elohim) seed -'humans': for He said, in Psalm 115:16, that He gave the earth to the sons of Adam; 'ben Adam'

The heaven, [08064] shamayim
[even] the heavens, [08064] shamayim
[are] the LORD'S: [03068] Y@hovah
but the earth [0776] 'erets
hath he given [05414] nathan
to the children [01121] ben
of men. [0120] 'adam

But Genesis 3 shows us that Adam died, when He ate that fruit, and his dominion was cursed; for the immediate result was his shame of his nakedness, for the glory was no longer inhabiting him once he ate that unclean fruit; and all we, his seed, died in His loins to that original purpose, for we are not 'godly seed', with His glory inhabiting us; though we are created in His image and likeness, in Adam, and have been created to have His glory indwelling us, in our spirit (our inner holy of holies formed within us for His habitation. -Back to that later, if you allow it).

Since God gave the earth to 'ben Adam' and in Adam, all die, so none could keep themselves alive to rule the dominion -and it was cursed anyway, for the sin; then there needed to be a Redeemer if it was to fulfill His purpose for His glory to be 'all in all'.

The Redeemer had to be a kinsman, to be able to redeem, and a near kinsman.
The Redeemer had to have life to give life; He would have to have the ability to pay the Ransom price to ransom his brethren.

That Redeemer chose to be our redeemer before the foundation of the world, and He is our Creator, YHWH of hosts, Himself, incarnate in the 'New creation' human being body which body is the Firstborn and only begotten of the Father -as a human being; for as YHWH of hosts, He has no geneology, no beginning, no end; only in the body that was prepared for Him by His spirit in the womb of the virgin is there a geneology, a beginning.

We are told that the First m
an was earthy, of this earth, but the last man is the LORD from heaven. He has the power of an endless life in His human being New Man body and will live in that body forever as the Firstborn over all the earth.

Before he came to be a fellow of man to Ransom this earth as Kinsman with the right and the power -and redeem all who will call upon His name for salvation- He was the equal with God, God's fellow, from eternity.

When God said
Hear, [08085] shama`
O Israel: [03478] Yisra'el
The LORD [03068] Y@hovah
our God [0430] 'elohiym
[is] one [0259] 'echad
LORD: [03068] Y@hovah,

He told them that YHWH, (a plural) 'Elohim' is ONE YHWH; and always, they have the 'God who is seen', who is YHWH of hosts, with whom Moses and the seventy elders dined on the mount,

Exodus 24: 9-11 “Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
And they saw the God of Israel: and [there was] under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in [his] clearness.
And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.”

and He was YHWH of hosts, the God of Israel, Jesus Christ -pre-incarnation- with whom the elders ate and drank.

Jer 19:3 And say, Hear ye the word of the LORD, O kings of Judah, and inhabitants of Jerusalem;
Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel;”

Jer 51:33 For thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel;”
1 Ch 17:
“O LORD, [there is] none like thee, neither [is there any] God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears. …
1Ch 17:24 Let it even be established, that thy name may be magnified for ever, saying, The LORD of hosts [is] the God of Israel, [even] a God to Israel:…”

Zep 2:9 “Therefore [as] I live, saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel,…”

A search through the Bible tells us that the Most High is YHWH of hosts, and the Most high is the God of Israel, and YHWH of hosts is the LORD Jesus Christ and there is One YHWH but two are YHWH of hosts, in more than one passage.

Psa 83:18 “That [men] may know that thou, whose name alone [is] JEHOVAH, [art] the most high over all the earth.”

He is the One Person 'of' the invisible God who is seen, and is the pre-incarnate LORD Jesus Christ who appeared to men from the beginning as the only Person of God whom angels or men will ever see; for the triune God is only seen in the Person of the One who is seen as YHWH of hosts -when in His glory, as Isaiah saw Him in chapter 6 (and John said Isaiah saw Jesus as YHWH of hosts) – and as THE ANGEL of YHWH when He came out of heaven to minister to men, pre-incarnation, many times; and who is 'the God of Israel', the Most High God, YHWH of hosts.

He is YHWH of hosts who sends YHWH of hosts, in Zechariah
2:8-9;
“For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye.
For, behold, I will shake mine hand upon them, and they shall be a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me.”

But YHWH of hosts is One YHWH. So YHWH is One, but there are two -in that verse- who are the One. One sends and One is sent. Both are Persons.

God is a plurality, as His choice of names, or the title, declares -“Elohim'; and He is One YHWH: but the Father is YHWH and the One who came as the full legal Son of man, through the incarnation, to inhabit human flesh, is the second YHWH of hosts, and always was with God as God.

the Father did not come to inhabit human flesh or to die upon the cross in His New Man human body. The Son is the son only as a human, but because He is the Lamb of God slain from the foundatiuon of the world, and the Son of God planned from the foundationof the world, he is entitled to be called the Son of God, even though He, as God, has no beginning. Hebrews 7:3, the Holy Spirit gave no geneology for Melchezedek, as a type of the Son who has no beginning.

“Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.”

YHWH declares that He is His equal, His fellow, and from eternity, as Paul tells us in Phillippians 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

But that form was as YHWH of hosts from everlasting.
There is no equal to Him 'among the sons of the elohim', the created sons of God, for He is the creator.

Psa 89:6 For who in the heaven can be compared unto the LORD? [who] among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the LORD?

Zec 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man [that is] my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

YHWH of hosts, LORD of heaven and earth, who had given the kingdom of this earth to Adam as his dominion under Him, is the 'fellow' of YHWH of hosts, and YHWH of hosts, from eternity.

Mic 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, [though] thou be little among the thousands of Judah, [yet] out of thee shall he come forth unto me [that is] to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth [have been] from of old, from everlasting.

His goings forth have been from everlasting, from eternity.
From everlasting to everlasting, He is God; and He came to be our Kinsman-Redeemer and will, as a human being, regenerate the entire kingdom that Adam lost and He ransomed as a Kinsman and then He will turn it back to the Father, for the glory of His Presence to inhabit it in it's New creation, as He did in the lost dead, creation; and then, God will be all in all.

Redemption will be complete; but He, YHWH of hosts who came incarnate, as a Son of Man, will forever be in the human being body, glorified, and be the 'Firstborn' over this earth, and the only One begotten of the father, as Isaac was a type of, in Genesis 22, and Hebrews tells us in 11:17 that Isaac was the 'only begotten' of Abraham.

“By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten [son],”
Adam is dead and lost the inheritance (Ishmael never had the right to Abraham's firstborn blessing) but the Only begotten Son of God is alive and lives forever, as a man with an unchangable priesthood.

Hbr 7:24 But this [man], because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.

And that rule of Firstborn He has promised to share with all who call upon His name for salvation.

Thank you for your time. I have much more to say about the eternal Deity of our Savior, YHWH of hosts, the Most High God, LORD of heaven and earth, from scripture, who took upon Himself human flesh forever, if allowed, and His redemption of Adam's seed and kingdom -and rule of it, regenerated, forever.

[Cubes]

Quote (liljon @ July 15 2005,18:00)

Vical Jesus is YHWH If Jesus isn't YHWH then what about Romans 10:9 with Joel 2 1 Cor 1 and Acts 4:24 Zechariah 14:5- with Acts 1:11 Plus he is called Our God and Given titles that God has King of Israel, Lord of Lords, King of Kings, God, Lord, Mighty God and even YHWH

Hi liljon:

Responses are with the dots/asterisks.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

[Anonymous]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 19 2005,19:07)

Hi E, The vision is of God in his temple and not Jesus. Jesus was the only begotten Son of God and not a deity in a heavenly temple prior to his incarnation. He was only given all power and authority after deciding to empty himself and come in a body in the name and power of the Father. Adonai 136 an emphatic form of Lord Lord lord lords As in Ps 110 quoted by Jesus “the Lord [God]said to my lord[[adonai]” This is not only used in reference to God Himself. Jesus is a ladder?I would have thought “on” here meant “onto” but what do others think?

Hello Nick,
I hope you read my long post with scriptures showing from the word who Jesus was and is and shall be.

On this post of yours, though, I fail to see how you could not address what John and Isaiah said about the YHWH of hosts, Jesus pre-incarnate.

In Isaiah chapter six, the YHWH of hosts is seen by Isaiah, being worshipped on His throne in heaven, and John says Isaiah saw Jesus there, then;

Isa 6:1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.

Isa 6:2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.

Isa 6:3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, [is] the LORD of hosts: the whole earth [is] full of his glory.

Isa 6:4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.

Isa 6:5 Then said I, Woe [is] me! for I am undone; because I [am] a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.

Isa 6:6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, [which] he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:

Isa 6:7 And he laid [it] upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.

Isa 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here [am] I; send me.

Isa 6:9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.

Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.”

He is YHWH of hosts, in Isaiah, and 'He' is the plural 'us', in Isaiah 6, as in Genesis 1;26-28, who is the singular “He', and John says Isaiah saw His glory, the glory of the YHWH of hosts, the LORD Jesus Christ;

Jhn 12:37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:

Jhn 12:38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?

Jhn 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
Jhn 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Jhn 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

So Isaiah saw His glory, and He was YHWH of hosts in His temple, and He was Jesus pre-incarnate who came incarnate to be our Redeemer-Kinsman, a fully human Firstborn of the father to rule this earth after ransoming it and taking possession of it.

“But the second man is the LORD (YHWH), from heaven”.

[Christofer]

Quote

And Yeshua is demonstrated in these scriptures not to be YHWH so I think you need to accept that at face value.

If no man had seen the Father – yet Isaiah saw Yahweh – who is Yahweh -at face value? Yahweh can't be the Father without Jesus being made a liar – can He? This is something I have been studying – and the more I dig – the more it seems Jesus HAD to be YHWH – and the Father was unknown to men until Jesus revealed the Father

[NickHassan]

Hi c,
To see a vision of God is not to see God. Isaiah saw a vision in Ch 6 as did Daniel in Dan 7 and John in Rev 4.
No man has seen God.

[Anonymous]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 15 2005,08:08)

Hi e and guest, Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. Right? The Father is the God of the Jews. Right? So Jesus is the Son of God who is his Father. Right? So Jesus is not the God of the OT. Right?   And Jesus is not part of that God as he is the Son of that God. Right? So trinity theory is nonsense. Right!

Hi Nick, again,
I'm reading and responding as I read.

If you do read my beginning post, you'll see that there is ample scripture evidence to prove that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God in His humanity, only, and is the only Begotten of the Father in the same way that Isaac was the only begotten of Abraham.

from http://www.blueletterbib.org
Hebrews 11:17
By faith [4102] pistis
Abraham, [11] Abraam
when he was tried, [3985] peirazo
offered up [4374] prosphero
Isaac: [2464] Isaak
and [2532] kai
he that had received [324] anadechomai
the promises [1860] epaggelia
offered up [4374] prosphero
his only begotten [3439] monogenes
[son],

Hbr 11:17 “By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten [son],
Hbr 11:18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:”

Now; Abraham had a firstborn son, but God called Isaac Abraham's 'only son'; in Genesis 22, and the author of Hebrews, by inspiration, said Abraham offered up his 'monogenes'.

God had a firstborn human son, Adam, son of God;
Luk 3:38 “Which was [the son] of Enos, which was [the son] of Seth, which was [the son] of Adam, which was [the son] of God.”
But only the second man, the YHWH from heaven, has the office as human, of firstborn, and 'monogenes', as Isaac was who inherits the kingdom of the Father.

But as to His eternal Deity, He has no beginning of days, no father, no mother, no geneaology.

The miracle of the incarnation is that YHWH of hosts, the second Person of the Eternal God, the fellow -therefore the equal- of God, and with God, came incarnate to be our Kinsman-Redeemer.

YHWH of hosts sent Him, and YHWH of hosts came.

In my rather long post, which I fear may not get read as it is so long, I pointed out that the God of Israel, whom Moses, Aaron and the seventy elders saw and dined with, was the Most High God, the God of Israel, YHWH of hosts; and YHWH of hosts is the Pre-incarnate LORD Jesus Christ.

YHWH, who interacted with man from the beginning, and was seen, as the One we call the Father is Spirit and cannot be seen, but the One who walked in the Garden and fellowshipped with Adam and made tunics for Adam and Eve has always been YHWH who is seen.

His goings forth have been of old, from eternity.
And He is the same (YHWH of hosts) yesterday, today, and forever.

“The second man is the LORD from heaven”, is in a verse that says that He is YHWH from heaven in human flesh.

So He is revealed as God, the YHWH of hosts who was sent by YHWH of hosts, and as the God of Israel who will be called the God of the whole earth, when He comes to take possession of the earth that He purchased that Adam lost.

The miracle is that YHWH of hosts didn't just leave us to be lost and throw us away when we fell, but made a plan to redeem us back to Himself by His own self, by His own shed blood as a human being, in the incarnation.
The Father who is Spirit did not come as a human being to die for us, the YHWH of hosts, the second Person of the three revealed in scripture as “YHWH thy Elohim, 'one' (a word that includes repetition as an echo) YHWH, came and as such is the Son of God as a human being.

YHWH is His name, and he is revealed as three persons, only, in scripture.
One being, three persons.
One of those Persons is never seen and can never be seen.
Two of those Persons are seen, in different ways in different times.
The smoking furnace and the burning lamp represented the Spirit and the Word, in Genesis 15, when they two passed between the cut covenant pieces to ratify it.

One of those Persons came into human flesh of a new creation, and that One is called the Son of God by the incarnation, the 'monogenes' human, as the first human, the Adam, is 'dead' to his created purpose and lost the dominion of his kingdom.

He is alive forever to be our High Priest and King, and our everlasting never dying father, the God of this dominion that was given to the first 'god' of this earth, the human 'Adam', that He purchased back for His glory and will regenerate and rule forever in human glorified flesh.

He is the only face of God we shall ever see f-orever, after the regeneration, and the only face of YWWH that man or angel has ever or shall ever see, of the One God.

Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

Rev 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name [shall be] in their foreheads.

[Anonymous]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 15 2005,08:08)

Hi e and guest, Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. Right? The Father is the God of the Jews. Right? So Jesus is the Son of God who is his Father. Right? So Jesus is not the God of the OT. Right?   And Jesus is not part of that God as he is the Son of that God. Right? So trinity theory is nonsense. Right!

this may be a repost with editing as it may have been sent before I was through. Sorry.

Hi Nick, again,
I'm reading and responding as I read.

If you do read my beginning post, you'll see that there is ample scripture evidence to prove that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God in His humanity, only, and is the only Begotten of the Father in the same way that Isaac was the only begotten of Abraham.

from http://www.blueletterbib.org
Hebrews 11:17
By faith [4102] pistis
Abraham, [11] Abraam
when he was tried, [3985] peirazo
offered up [4374] prosphero
Isaac: [2464] Isaak
and [2532] kai
he that had received [324] anadechomai
the promises [1860] epaggelia
offered up [4374] prosphero
his only begotten [3439] monogenes
[son],

Hbr 11:17 “By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten [son],
Hbr 11:18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:”

Now; Abraham had a firstborn son, but God called Isaac Abraham's 'only son'; in Genesis 22, and the author of Hebrews, by inspiration, said Abraham offered up his 'monogenes'.

God had a firstborn human son, Adam, son of God;
Luk 3:38 “Which was [the son] of Enos, which was [the son] of Seth, which was [the son] of Adam, which was [the son] of God.”
But only the second man, the YHWH from heaven, has the office as human, of firstborn, and 'monogenes', as Isaac was who inherits the kingdom of the Father.

But as to His eternal Deity, He has no beginning of days, no father, no mother, no geneaology.

The miracle of the incarnation is that YHWH of hosts, the second Person of the Eternal God, the fellow -therefore the equal- of God, and with God, came incarnate to be our Kinsman-Redeemer.

YHWH of hosts sent Him, and YHWH of hosts came.

In my rather long post, which I fear may not get read as it is so long, I pointed out that the God of Israel, whom Moses, Aaron and the seventy elders saw and dined with, was the Most High God, the God of Israel, YHWH of hosts; and YHWH of hosts is the Pre-incarnate LORD Jesus Christ.

YHWH, the pre-incarnate LORD Jesus Christ, who interacted with man from the beginning, and was seen (as the One we call the Father is Spirit and cannot be seen); but the One who walked in the Garden and fellowshipped with Adam and made tunics for Adam and Eve has always been YHWH who is seen.

His goings forth have been of old, from eternity.
And He is the same (YHWH of hosts) yesterday, today, and forever.

“The second man is the LORD from heaven”, is in a verse that says that He is YHWH from heaven in human flesh.

So He is revealed as God, the YHWH of hosts who was sent by YHWH of hosts, and as the God of Israel who will be called the God of the whole earth, when He comes to take possession of the earth that He purchased that Adam lost.

The miracle is that YHWH of hosts didn't just leave us to be lost and throw us away when we fell, but made a plan to redeem us back to Himself by His own self, by His own shed blood, as a human being, in the incarnation.

The Father who is Spirit did not come as a human being to die for us, the YHWH of hosts, the second Person of the three revealed in scripture as “YHWH thy Elohim, 'one' YHWH(one being a word that can include repetition as an echo), came, and as such is the Son of God as a human being.

YHWH is His name, and he is revealed as three persons, only, in scripture.
One being, three persons.
One of those Persons is never seen and can never be seen.
Two of those Persons are seen, in different ways in different times.
The smoking furnace and the burning lamp represented the Spirit and the Word, in Genesis 15, when they two passed between the cut covenant pieces to ratify the land covenant.

One of those Persons came into human flesh of a new creation, and that One is called the Son of God by the incarnation, the 'monogenes' human -as the first human, the Adam, is 'dead' to his created purpose and lost the dominion of his kingdom.

He is alive forever to be our High Priest and King, and our everlasting never dying father, all as a human being, too.
YHWH came to ransom this dominion that was given to the first 'god' of this earth, the human 'Adam', and He purchased it back back for 'His glory' and will regenerate and rule forever in His human, glorified flesh.

He is the only 'face' of God we shall ever see forever, after the regeneration, and the only face of YWWH that man or angel has ever or shall ever see, of the One God.

Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

Rev 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name [shall be] in their foreheads.

[Anonymous]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 20 2005,04:48)

Hi c, To see a vision of God is not to see God. Isaiah saw a vision in Ch 6 as did Daniel in Dan 7 and John in Rev 4. No man has seen God.

Hello Nick,
John said that Isaiah saw Him in His glory, in Isaiah chapter 6. John 12:37-41.Jhn 12:37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:

Jhn 12:38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?

Jhn 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,

Jhn 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Jhn 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

Ezekiel saw Him on His throne of glory, when He rode the heavens by His name “JAH!” in a 'vision', in Ezekiel chapters 1-11, but He was YHWH of hosts, and the same One who comes to dwell in His temple as the glory of God, in Ezekiel 43:1-7, who is the risen glorified LORD Jesus Christ.

[Anonymous]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 20 2005,04:48)

Hi c, To see a vision of God is not to see God. Isaiah saw a vision in Ch 6 as did Daniel in Dan 7 and John in Rev 4. No man has seen God.

Dear Nick,
You believe Father is the God of Israel.
I do too, but I believe the Father is never seen and can never be seen, as He is Spirit.
But what do you say about this passage:

Exodus 24: 9-11 “Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
And they saw the God of Israel: and [there was] under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in [his] clearness.
And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.”

[NickHassan]

Hi Y,
No the bible does not say God is three persons in one.
It says God is one.
It does not say there is any persons in God.
Jesus is not another person in God but is begotten from God.
It does not say Jesus is God [the Son] incarnate.
It says Jesus Christ came in the flesh.
God then came in Christ by His Spirit so He could not have also been that which he came in could He?
Jesus Christ is not Yahweh or the Yahweh from heaven
He is the man from heaven.
He is a priest of God.
He is a prophet of God.
Yahweh did not come in the flesh.
Yahweh is the Father of Jesus Christ who is his only begotten Son.
Just because Isaac was the “only begotten” son [but not firstborn]does not mean he was his “only” son or his “born” son.

Too many “therefores” and other derived assumptions. Such is going beyond revealed truth into dangerous presumption. It is safer to stay with what is revealed than to venture into confident but unprovable speculation about the nature of God. That risks insulting both God and His Son. Fear God.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Guest @ July 20 2005,05:48)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 20 2005,04:48) Hi c, To see a vision of God is not to see God. Isaiah saw a vision in Ch 6 as did Daniel in Dan 7 and John in Rev 4. No man has seen God. Dear Nick, You believe Father is the God of Israel. I do too, but I believe the Father is never seen and can never be seen, as He is Spirit. But what do you say about this passage: Exodus 24: 9-11 “Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:   And they saw the God of Israel: and [there was] under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in [his] clearness.   And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.”

Hi Y,
If Jesus Christ said no man has seen God I think we should start by believing him don't you?
Would he not know the truth as he is The Truth?
Is he not our Teacher?
I do not think we should start by reading scripture according to our minds and then judging the words of Jesus Christ as false do you?
Or are we trying to prove we are cleverer and more truthful than Truth itself?

I think we should try to understand what is written according to what our Teacher tells us.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Guest @ July 20 2005,05:27)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 20 2005,04:48) Hi c, To see a vision of God is not to see God. Isaiah saw a vision in Ch 6 as did Daniel in Dan 7 and John in Rev 4. No man has seen God. Hello Nick, John said that Isaiah saw Him in His glory, in Isaiah chapter 6. John 12:37-41.Jhn 12:37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:   Jhn 12:38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?   Jhn 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,   Jhn 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.   Jhn 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.   Ezekiel saw Him on His throne of glory, when He rode the heavens by His name “JAH!” in a 'vision', in Ezekiel chapters 1-11, but He was YHWH of hosts, and the same One who comes to dwell in His temple as the glory of God, in Ezekiel 43:1-7, who is the risen glorified LORD Jesus Christ.

Hi,
I continue to be amazed at the fertile imaginations of some who will find “supportive scriptural evidence” for any theories they entertain about God.

They find some possible inconsistency or disparity and use such induced doubts to try to bolster their doctrines such as God is “three in one” or “Jesus is Yahweh”.

Neither is true.

God is one
Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

[Anonymous]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 20 2005,05:52)

Hi Y, No the bible does not say God is three persons in one. It says God is one. It does not say there is any persons in God. Jesus is not another person in God but is begotten from God. It does not say Jesus is God [the Son] incarnate. It says Jesus Christ came in the flesh. God then came in Christ by His Spirit so He could not have also been that which he came in could He? Jesus Christ is not Yahweh or the Yahweh from heaven He is the man from heaven. He is a priest of God. He is a prophet of God. Yahweh did not come in the flesh. Yahweh is the Father of Jesus Christ who is his only begotten Son. Just because Isaac was the “only begotten” son [but not firstborn]does not mean he was his “only” son or his “born” son. Too many “therefores” and other derived assumptions. Such is going beyond revealed truth into dangerous presumption. It is safer to stay with what is revealed than to venture into confident but unprovable speculation about the nature of God. That risks insulting both God and His Son. Fear God.

Hello N:;):

[Adam Pastor]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 19 2005,19:07)

Adonai 136 an emphatic form of Lord Lord lord lords As in Ps 110 quoted by Jesus “the Lord [God]said to my lord[[adonai]” This is not only used in reference to God Himself.

Greetings Nick
A slight correction:
The second word 'lord' in Psa 110:1 is not 'adonai'; it is 'adoni';
a similar nevertheless different Hebrew word!

This Hebrew word is always used (in all its 195 occurrences) to differentiate human (and angelic) refs. from Deity (i.e. Adonai YAHWEH, the One GOD)

Hence, 'adoni' is never used in reference to God Himself.

[Anonymous]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 20 2005,05:52)

Hi Y, No the bible does not say God is three persons in one. It says God is one. It does not say there is any persons in God. Jesus is not another person in God but is begotten from God. It does not say Jesus is God [the Son] incarnate. It says Jesus Christ came in the flesh. God then came in Christ by His Spirit so He could not have also been that which he came in could He? Jesus Christ is not Yahweh or the Yahweh from heaven He is the man from heaven. He is a priest of God. He is a prophet of God. Yahweh did not come in the flesh. Yahweh is the Father of Jesus Christ who is his only begotten Son. Just because Isaac was the “only begotten” son [but not firstborn]does not mean he was his “only” son or his “born” son. Too many “therefores” and other derived assumptions. Such is going beyond revealed truth into dangerous presumption. It is safer to stay with what is revealed than to venture into confident but unprovable speculation about the nature of God. That risks insulting both God and His Son. Fear God.

Hello N:;):,
I am curious why you said 'God is one'. -One what?

The scripture says there is one God, and the scriptures say that YHWH of hosts is God, and YHWH thy Elohim is one YHWH.

Here is what YHWH of hosts said through Moses;

Hear, [08085] shama`
O Israel: [03478] Yisra'el
The LORD [03068] Y@hovah
our God [0430] 'elohiym
[is] one [0259] 'echad
LORD: [03068] Y@hovah

And the word 'one' has several meanings, including the echo,
“…one…another, the one…the other, one after another,” (from BLB), which I first heard from a Jew who speaks Hebrew.

Elohim is in the plural, and from the first, God used the plural form of that Word: Elohim said “Let us” make man in our image after “our” likeness and “He” did. -singular 'He';

so from the beginning, the Israeli's knew God as 'plural'; but He defined His plurality in Deuteronomy 6:4;

'YHWH thy Elohim is One YHWH,”

He also appeared to the elders of Israel and they ate and dined with Moses, Aaron, and the seventy, and they saw the God of Israel. That God of Israel is YHWH of hosts, the Most High God, and Moses and the elders saw Him and dined with Him.

So which Person of YHWH did Moses only see the backside of? He saw the God of Israel and dined with Him, but He could not see God and live, so there were two, there, weren't there.

Moses wrote in Genesis 19 of YHWH on earth calling down fire and brimstone on Sodom and gomorrah from YHWH in heaven, but “YHWH thy Elohim is ONE YHWH”.

So the Word has two persons, there, called YHWH of hosts, and YHWH, but “YHWH thy (plural) Elohim is One YHWH”. -the Spirit is also YHWH.

YHWH of hosts sends YHWH of hosts in Zechariah 2:8-11, and YHWH of hosts 'and' His Spirit sends Him, in Isaiah 48:16, two sent Him, and He came, -three Persons who are YHWH thy Elohim…One YHWH”

Zec 2:8 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye.

For, behold, I will shake mine hand upon them, and they shall be a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me.

Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD.

And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee.”

Isa 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there [am] I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

“Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”; I agree, And He is the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world, and He is the Last Adam, the second man, the firstborn of all creation, and all as a human being.

But the One who came incarnate as the firstborn and only begotten human being to redeem and rule over this earth is YHWH of hosts from heaven, therefore Paul wrote:

1Cr 15:47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven. YHWH from heaven is Jesus Christ, second Person of the ONE “YHWH”, thy (plural) “Elohim”

And Jesus Christ has no beginning, no genealogy, no Father, no mother, as God, for He is YHWH of hosts, from eternity. and that is in Hebrews 7.

So there is One YHWH, but three Persons in that One YHWH.
One is incarnate, in a New man created human being body, called the Son of God, just like Adam was. -His purpose of being in that New creation human body is to be our Kinsman-Redeemer, Himself.
So I bow to the Son of God, YHWH of hosts who came incarnate, and worship Him as the angels in Isaiah 6 did.

[Adam Pastor]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 19 2005,19:07)

Adonai 136 an emphatic form of Lord Lord lord lords As in Ps 110 quoted by Jesus “the Lord [God]said to my lord[[adonai]” This is not only used in reference to God Himself.

Greetings Nick
A slight correction:
The second word 'lord' in Psa 110:1 is not 'adonai'; it is 'adoni';
a similar nevertheless different Hebrew word!

This Hebrew word is always used (in all its 195 occurrences) to differentiate human (and angelic) refs. from Deity (i.e. Adonai YAHWEH, the One GOD)

Hence, 'adoni' is never used in reference to God Himself.

[Author]

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